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Old 01-06-2012, 02:35 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Matt Yglesias: Creating Jobs by Cutting Wages

Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Well, I guess I took "that's where the bias creeps in" as an indicator that the fact that liberals "only use four" to suggest that the liberal perspective was or was the cause of bias.
It is the cause of bias.

Well, relative to conservatives, yes. But the conservative downgrading of fairness and avoiding harm relative to liberals could also be construed as a bias.
Yes, you make this point as if I didn't think conservatives have a bias. I believe that there is only bias. The status quo is a bias.

The reference to the rest of humanity again seemed to suggest a unique deficiency on the part of liberals. But that assumes that things like democracy and a notion of human rights, also relatively rare across human societies.
I do think it's a deficiency amongst liberals. If you watch the entire video, Haidt goes on to explain why civilization needs all 5 (now 6). I agree about democracy and a notion of human rights. That doesn't render the other moral senses moot.

I also have to admit I was also thrown by the linkage to pathological altruism, which i have trouble squaring with the Haidt stuff. I suppose you could have simply been completely switching topics, but it seemed to be linked somehow and the inference I took was "ways that liberals fall short" or somesuch.
Yes, only tangentially related.

The only linkage that I could make looking back was that the really pathological altruism (the stuff that is violent as opposed to just pathetic) is essential an overly high emphasis on Authority or Purity or Ingroup. But those are all traits that conservatives tend to value more than liberals, and I strongly suspect you weren't trying to say that conservatives were slightly more prone than liberals to the violent forms of pathological altruism.
I wasn't making a direct linkage.

You seemed, rather to be going from the risk liberals have for pathological altruism and how easily their scorn for tea partiers could lead to the gas chambers to some reason that liberals couldn't see their bias because they don't use all the dimensions.
Okay, let's be careful here. I tried to be careful, but apparently it wasn't good enough.

To get genocidal, you need a leader to carry out the policies of large scale violence. I am accusing nobody here of that. The Nazi example is illustrative not because pathological altruists can be like Hitler; they can be, but that's beside the point. Rather, my point is that during Hitler's reign, millions of Germans did absolutely nothing to stop the mass killings, even if they were not directly effectuating mass murder. My comment has never been about Hitler, but about the German civilians, non-military. The common response to this is the old Burkean proposition that evil prevails when good men do nothing. I believe that this is incorrect. I believe that great evils like the Holocaust can only happen in the name of good. Millions of Germans would not have stood by to do nothing if they thought SS policies were immoral. They were complicit in those policies because they thought they were eradicating Jewish evil.

As well, and to clarify earlier. I asked if you thought altruism was always or often pathological and you focused on the always, but your quote talked about how altruism can be good, but is bad in many ways.
Where did the quote say that altruism is bad in many ways? I believe it says pathological altruism is bad in many ways.
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.

Last edited by sugarkang; 01-06-2012 at 02:38 AM..
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