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  #41  
Old 03-26-2011, 04:02 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default All the king's horses

Quote:
So now that Bashar Al-Assad is slaughtering his "citizens" what becomes of this R2P doctrine?

"All the king's horses and all the king's men
Could not put Humpty* together again."



Quote:
* “When I use a word like R2P,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master , that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot!]
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  #42  
Old 03-26-2011, 05:49 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohreally View Post
Germany is now pissing off everyone for not waging war... Ah, the irony of history.
Ironic, to be sure.

I wish everyone would stop talking about the intervention in Libya as if it were an act of war. Whether you think R2P, le devoir d'ingérence, are justified or not, they are not acts of war according to international law or the UN. France and Britain and the US have insisted that once Gaddafi stops killing civilians, they (now NATO) will desist.
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  #43  
Old 03-26-2011, 05:58 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane1976 View Post
I'm still trying to figure out what's with Germany. I read Joschka Fischer is furious with the government.
If Europe is ever to have an independent foreign policy (independent of NATO that is), Britain, France and Germany will be its core. I think the French and people like Fischer are angry because they see Germany acting to thwart progress towards a EU that is more than a vast trading block.
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  #44  
Old 03-26-2011, 07:26 AM
Peter Sibley Peter Sibley is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

I believe it's called "punching above your weight."

Anyway, this discussion makes me pine for another terror attack.
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  #45  
Old 03-26-2011, 07:32 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Just being nitpicky here; How are concerns about a refugee crisis not humanitarian? If you're only interested in doing things that help yourself wouldn't it be more convient to just let them die?
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  #46  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:56 AM
Malaquias Malaquias is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

It always amuses me to hear Althouse raise her "left wing credentials". It reminds me of those closet racists: "who, me, a racist? I even have negro friends". Are we supposed to take her as unbiased simply because she claims to have voted for Obama, even if she attacks Obama from the right on every occasion? I think Rush Limbaugh is a fool, but you have to admire his coherency. He doesn't try to portray himself as a left winger or even a centrist. Althouse has every right to speak her outlandish right wing views. She just has to stop insulting our intelligence by claiming to be mostly leftist. In Europe, she would be joining a ultra-right wing party, and even then...
Regarding Obama's supposed double standard between Lybia and Iraq, even if Robert Wright has perfectly rebuted her arguments, we have to stress that this is NOT a US intervention. It was first proposed by France with the UK's backing. So, to have Obama start the operations with a Bush style oval office address would be to hijack a UN operation that has Arab sympathy, and turn it into a "US imperialist invasion". Obama's approach more closely resembles Bush Sr.'s efforts in liberating Kuwait with an internationally backed, UNSC sanctioned limited intervention. And Obama even took the extra precaution of not leading the process. So, it really has no comparison with the Iraq invasion.
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  #47  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:10 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaquias View Post
It always amuses me to hear Althouse raise her "left wing credentials". It reminds me of those closet racists: "who, me, a racist? I even have negro friends". Are we supposed to take her as unbiased simply because she claims to have voted for Obama, even if she attacks Obama from the right on every occasion? I think Rush Limbaugh is a fool, but you have to admire his coherency. He doesn't try to portray himself as a left winger or even a centrist. Althouse has every right to speak her outlandish right wing views. She just has to stop insulting our intelligence by claiming to be mostly leftist. In Europe, she would be joining a ultra-right wing party, and even then...
Regarding Obama's supposed double standard between Lybia and Iraq, even if Robert Wright has perfectly rebuted her arguments, we have to stress that this is NOT a US intervention. It was first proposed by France with the UK's backing. So, to have Obama start the operations with a Bush style oval office address would be to hijack a UN operation that has Arab sympathy, and turn it into a "US imperialist invasion". Obama's approach more closely resembles Bush Sr.'s efforts in liberating Kuwait with an internationally backed, UNSC sanctioned limited intervention. And Obama even took the extra precaution of not leading the process. So, it really has no comparison with the Iraq invasion.
Good post.
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:48 AM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

A WAR DESIGNED BY AN lVY LEAGUE PROFESSOR LOL
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  #49  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:58 AM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Ann, Ann, Ann, our love for you is so maddening. One minute you're trying to make a case that large groups of Tea Partiers are more civilized than large groups of pro-union protestors (actually any group over 100 people includes the scum of the earth, regardless of what group it is) and then talking like a self-hating professor, la la la la. But then the circuit breaker goes off and you say interesting stuff, and and and and and and I just don't know what to think. Your tone of voice even changes, the look in your eye. What kind of trolling are you doing, and how can we possibly troll better? Can I "punch up" and troll as well?

"Thank you." Your welcome.
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  #50  
Old 03-26-2011, 03:08 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Ann has a thing about drums . . . interesting how tribalism and drums go together in her mind.
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  #51  
Old 03-26-2011, 04:35 PM
Kansas City Kansas City is offline
 
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Thumbs up Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

This was remarkable. Bob seems to be a reasonable guy, but he also truly seems to believe that the "disruptions" of the Tea Party meetings were similar to the over the top conduct by the Madison protestors. It is either the MSM has planted that concept firmly in his mind (and he is not the least bit curious as to whether it is true) or he is wilfully deceptive about the issue.

His complete acceptance of liberal argument is further demonstrated by his statement of "fact" that with one day delay in Libya "thousands" would have been killed the next day. Ann briefly caught him on the fact that Obama and company had delayed for 3 weeks, but more significantly, there is no reason to believe any significant number of persons beyond the armed rebels would have been killed. Quaddafi's forces had fought and won battles in other towns and there was no widespread killing of civilians.

Althouse consistently bests liberals on these shows because she is smart and liberals tend to be so lazy in their thought process. Bob, for example, goes into this debate "armed" with the weak and false liberal talking points that the Madison protesters' conduct was just like the Tea Party and there would be thousands killed if Obama had delayed on day, but he comes with no facts to back up either talking point.
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  #52  
Old 03-26-2011, 05:34 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Ann's criticism of the Wisconsin protesters was awfully rich. I have no problem conceding that left-wing rallies can be just as ugly and stupid as right-wing ones are. What I'm amused by, and sort of disgusted by, is how un-self-aware Ann must be to not realize the tone of wounded outrage she's using about the "ugliness" and "hatefulness" of the Wisconsin protesters is exactly the tone she used whenever anyone suggested there might be something ugly or hateful behind the tea parties. Actually, she might be totally aware of this fact, and she's just embracing her right-wing tribalism with both arms.
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  #53  
Old 03-26-2011, 06:22 PM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Default Bob was unaware...

Bob was unaware that bh.tv had activated it's "Palin alarm" system. I, for one, suggest the system be activated for all diavlogs.
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  #54  
Old 03-26-2011, 08:47 PM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Toward the end of the 4th section, Ann implies that Obama has been forced by the reality of US security needs to adopt Bush policies re Guantanamo and terrorist suspects. That's impossible because Bush's original position was so illegal and immoral that the Supreme Court shot it down.

Bush was forced to begin cleaning up his own act long before Obama took over. Bush's position meant putting supposed security needs above the law and basic human rights principles that are centuries old in western society. It meant concocting a hybrid system that denied people any rights at all under either criminal law or the laws of war, and implementing an abusive and depraved program of interrogation and confession extraction that was utterly shameful and resulted in widespread condemnation and dissent within the US bureaucracies themselves.

Obama rightly condemned that original approach, declared that security needs could be met within the law, and then picked up where Bush left off in trying to legalize and humanize the system. It's unfortunate that in some ways it's harder for Obama. Bush could transfer out hundreds of Gtmo detainees, stop bringing in any new ones, push rather generous plea deals in return for detainees not appealing or suing the US for torture (they sometimes sue their own countries for minor complicity), and try any number of other terrorist suspects in civilian courts without anybody batting an eye.

When Obama took over, most Gtmo detainees were scheduled for transfer, a few were in legal processes and a number were deemed impossible to try for any crime and too "dangerous" to release, either because they always were or were made so by Gtmo.

But Obama is under fierce scrutiny, blocked by political opponents at every turn, and possibly deterred by his own caution and maybe, by an unwillingness to fully expose the wrongdoing of the previous Administration. That's my impression. I followed the Omar Khadr case for years and was disgusted by Obama's refusal just to cancel the whole case. Rather, he let the odious military commission continue on with its cover-up and hatchet job, and then pushed a plea bargain so as to sneak away from the result.

David Frum makes a similar argument to Ann, but he's not dishonest about it. He doesn't ignore history and pretend that Obama is returning to the original Bush position.

Last edited by Diane1976; 03-26-2011 at 08:58 PM..
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  #55  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:02 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Well KC, that's our Bob

Long on emotion and left-wing talking points, short on facts, logic, and political understanding.

He seems more intelligent when he doesn't discuss politics.
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  #56  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:25 PM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
If Europe is ever to have an independent foreign policy (independent of NATO that is), Britain, France and Germany will be its core. I think the French and people like Fischer are angry because they see Germany acting to thwart progress towards a EU that is more than a vast trading block.
It seems odd for Germany to position itself against UK, France and the US all at once. This article expresses it as opposing both the EU and the US.

It seems Merkel has political problems and the German people support the resolution but don't want Germany to participate militarily. It might have been better for the government to support the resolution and offer some kind of minimal participation and/or non military support. It might have all been over before anybody started pressuring them for more.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14943352,00.html
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  #57  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:27 AM
willmybasilgrow willmybasilgrow is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaquias View Post
It always amuses me to hear Althouse raise her "left wing credentials". It reminds me of those closet racists: "who, me, a racist? I even have negro friends". Are we supposed to take her as unbiased simply because she claims to have voted for Obama, even if she attacks Obama from the right on every occasion? I think Rush Limbaugh is a fool, but you have to admire his coherency. He doesn't try to portray himself as a left winger or even a centrist. Althouse has every right to speak her outlandish right wing views. She just has to stop insulting our intelligence by claiming to be mostly leftist. In Europe, she would be joining a ultra-right wing party, and even then...
I'm not quite sure it's accurate to say Ann Althouse identifies as a "leftist." Afterall, she uses that term disparagingly all the time. But point well taken. And I too am so sick of the but-I-voted-for-Obama statements. I just hope she stays true to her true cause, Republicanism, and votes Republican in the next presidential election.

Point taken!
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  #58  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:36 AM
willmybasilgrow willmybasilgrow is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
Ann's criticism of the Wisconsin protesters was awfully rich. I have no problem conceding that left-wing rallies can be just as ugly and stupid as right-wing ones are. What I'm amused by, and sort of disgusted by, is how un-self-aware Ann must be to not realize the tone of wounded outrage she's using about the "ugliness" and "hatefulness" of the Wisconsin protesters is exactly the tone she used whenever anyone suggested there might be something ugly or hateful behind the tea parties. Actually, she might be totally aware of this fact, and she's just embracing her right-wing tribalism with both arms.
Indeed! Right after the violent expressions defended to the absolute hilt by Ann Althouse, of the right during the health care town halls, Ann said that that kind of speech enlivens and spices up debate. So now, what does she do? Crawls into a hole and proclaims (deserved, must say) victimhood just like she accused the Democrats of doing. Of course, she is 100% correct to point out the hypocrisy of the Democrats hoisting hateful signs. No argument at all there. But where in the hell is the defense of free speech? Her points only and I mean ONLY have to do with hypocrisy. No celebration of free speech here, move along.
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  #59  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:37 AM
willmybasilgrow willmybasilgrow is offline
 
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Default Re: All the king's horses

Bob complained that his point was mischaracterized in a blog posting by Althouse. Does anyone have a link to said blog posting?
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  #60  
Old 03-27-2011, 06:43 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

on free speech. Quite interesting.
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  #61  
Old 03-28-2011, 02:24 AM
Romanized Romanized is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaquias View Post
It always amuses me to hear Althouse raise her "left wing credentials".
Burn heretic, burn!
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  #62  
Old 03-28-2011, 03:34 AM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Wink Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Shorter Bob: I'm not anti-free-speech, I just don't much value having a society in which one can speak freely.

;-p
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  #63  
Old 03-28-2011, 07:44 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimM47 View Post
Shorter Bob: I'm not anti-free-speech, I just don't much value having a society in which one can speak freely.

;-p
I don't know. I personally believe in the prudent and measured use of laws that penalize defamation and sedition (the latter with extreme caution).

True freedom of speech is only possible when all voices have equal power. With the money-powered propaganda machine that we have today, all we're seeing is massive manipulation based on lies and ignorance. Freedom of speech no longer exists as such.
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  #64  
Old 03-28-2011, 09:26 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimM47 View Post
Shorter Bob: I'm not anti-free-speech, I just don't much value having a society in which one can speak freely.

;-p
So... Asserting (with evidence) that Glenn Beck is a liar and a propagandist who any responsible journalistic organization should be ashamed to have on staff is evidence of an infinitesimal sense of the value of free-speech? What about Glenn Beck's attempts to foment hysteria in regard to the academic work of long retired scholars? Is that pro- or anti- free speech?
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  #65  
Old 03-28-2011, 11:17 AM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
So... Asserting (with evidence) that Glenn Beck is a liar and a propagandist who any responsible journalistic organization should be ashamed to have on staff is evidence of an infinitesimal sense of the value of free-speech? What about Glenn Beck's attempts to foment hysteria in regard to the academic work of long retired scholars? Is that pro- or anti- free speech?
Mainly, its that Bob has defined the terms of debate on his position in such a way as to leave himself wide open to a sharp jab, which I (good-naturedly) took. I have no doubt that, with respect to the specific case, you, a third party, could reframe the argument on more defensible terms.
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  #66  
Old 03-28-2011, 11:32 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimM47 View Post
Mainly, its that Bob has defined the terms of debate on his position in such a way as to leave himself wide open to a sharp jab, which I (good-naturedly) took. I have no doubt that, with respect to the specific case, you, a third party, could reframe the argument on more defensible terms.
Yeah, sorry if that came across seeming a little too hot. I've been involved in this particular debate in various places for a good while now, and it feels like I've made the same point t least a thousand times.
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  #67  
Old 03-28-2011, 07:24 PM
seeker656 seeker656 is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

I listened to this as a podcast and was struck by Ann's honesty when she acknowledged that she heard herself yelling. I found her side of the "dialogue" to be closer to the Hannity style of confrontation rather than any meaningful dialogue.

I don't find that yelling increases the strength of anyone's argument.
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  #68  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:48 AM
jacks_mind jacks_mind is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

"In short, any interventionist who doesn't bother to make a rational, historically-grounded case for the likelihood of a better outcome doesn't deserve to be taken seriously."

You make it sound as if there was no thought going into this action whatsoever.

Assume for the moment that they had intelligence that showed that 90% of the Libyan Army was ready to defect, that strategic bombing was all that was needed to tip the uprising dramatically in the hands of the rebels. I mean just assume. Do you think that Serbia would be the key to dissuade them? Of course not. Historical precedent is just one part (and arguably the weakest part) of evidence for predictive success. The current facts of the case are what they base action on. There are many reasons they thought this would be a cake walk compared to Bosnia, not the least being that Bosnia was ~200K troops on each side and now we are taking about 10K--big difference.
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  #69  
Old 03-29-2011, 01:23 AM
sapeye sapeye is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Jesus, that was fun. I broke my vow to not watch Althouse again, and I'm glad I did. Bob was at his sly sardonic finest as he subtly encouraged Ann to rant on in self-righteous, humorless indignation. I've got no dog in the Farley/husband kerfuffle (no idea what it's about), but it's a pleasure to see a verbal jujitsu master at work. Bob barely showed a smile as he appeared to remain neutral, yet kept gently urging Althouse to more and more absurd displays of egotistical hubris. "Punching Up," indeed... His prods to Mickey are mere slapstick compared to his scalpel work here.
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:08 PM
Alexandrite Alexandrite is offline
 
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Default Re: Rave On (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Bob Finally defines international law

I've been waiting for this moment since this thread. Ever wonder why people keep taking your words and using them in ways you don't mean?

I'm not one to get into definition debates anymore. At least, not since the (second?) greatest blogpost of the year.
Quote:
For most definition disputes, pretending to resolve it via conceptual analysis just isn’t very honest. It is more honest to argue about the desirability of various consequences of alternate social conventions.
I think that even if there were some platonic ideal definition of International Law, it wouldn't convince Robert that his stance is wrong. At least, I would hope it wouldn't. At best, it would make him change the terms he uses.

I will say though, the convention "Once something has been approved by the Security Council, It's no longer immoral" is a pretty dismal and awful standard for justification of foreign intervention. The multitude of reasons against this should be obvious (pun intended).
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  #71  
Old 03-30-2011, 03:45 AM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

I'm wondering if Althouse is as alarmed about the free-speech-squelching effects of Wisconsin Republicans' efforts to get into a professor's emails as she is about Bob's criticism of Roger Ailes for employing Glenn Beck.
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  #72  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:36 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
I'm wondering if Althouse is as alarmed about the free-speech-squelching effects of Wisconsin Republicans' efforts to get into a professor's emails as she is about Bob's criticism of Roger Ailes for employing Glenn Beck.
Funny you should ask...

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/03...nose-into.html
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  #73  
Old 03-30-2011, 12:55 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Althouse posts her email exchange with Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
So... Asserting (with evidence) that Glenn Beck is a liar and a propagandist who any responsible journalistic organization should be ashamed to have on staff is evidence of an infinitesimal sense of the value of free-speech? What about Glenn Beck's attempts to foment hysteria in regard to the academic work of long retired scholars? Is that pro- or anti- free speech?
I mentioned this recently, but I consider myself a strong advocate of free speech. Yet, when I was on an editorial board (in college), I voted with the majority against accepting an ad from Holocaust deniers. I would have been embarassed and ashamed (among other things) to use my free speech rights to provide a forum for such views. And that's in part because what you choose to publish (or broadcast) is a free speech choice.

Assuming that Bob said that the speech was shameful and the decision to facilitate it a disgusting one, and not that the speech should be outlawed or the government step in, I see no conflict with his support for speech and his statement.

(I haven't watched the diavlog, because I'm uninterested in Althouse, even with Bob.)
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