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  #81  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Rather going from CBS news to HDnet would be like Breitbart relinquishing control of his website and starting a newsletter.

The logic that Dan Rather ran with a fake story that cost him his job so Breitbart is free to publish misleading information with no consequence is idiotic.

Last edited by Big_Time_Gumshoe; 08-03-2010 at 12:32 PM..
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  #82  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
I wasn't likely to regard anything he had to say before or after

I do understand the point that this can cause people to question future claims, and that's something that both Rather and Breitbart brought upon themselves with their irresponsibility. But this talk of 'discredited' seems to me to be a case of wanting to ignore future scoops that Breitbart publishes.
Well yes, I would hope that we ignore future "scoops" that he publishes, seeing as his previous scoops have been obviously dishonest smears designed to feed into a conspiratorial ideological narrative.
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  #83  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:30 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Time_Gumshoe View Post
Rather going from CBS news to HDnet would be like Breitbart relinquishing control of his website and starting a newsletter.
I think that shows why creating an analogue of repercussions between old media and new media sources is difficult.
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  #84  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:34 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
My dispute is with the referencing of a multi-million dollar smear website.
Either you have an issue or you don't. Saying the word "smear" doesn't make it so. Do you have an argument?
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  #85  
Old 08-03-2010, 12:34 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
They hardly behaved responsibly, though, did they? They rushed to judgment. I find it more disconcerting that the White House would be so irresponsible, though the NAACP lost its standing a while ago.
Certainly they did, and they were roundly criticized for it in the Liberal blogosphere. But describing something as "discredited" has a specific meaning that one can't attach to a presidential administration or an advocacy group with the size and history of the NAACP on the basis of one incident like this. And again, Breitbart profession means that honesty is a much more important criteria in evaluating his work than it would be if he were a politician.
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  #86  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quoting Don:
we call her ignorant and uneducated because she is obviously out of her depth when she discusses policy. If anything, this has very little to do with where she went to school and everything to do with her attitude towards knowledge and expertise. Someone interested in good governance should continue to learn about these things long after getting a diploma. Palin obviously has not.
Sounds reasonable, but would examples of "good governance" include, for example, waiting 60 days to get down to business and meet with the BP CEO, declaring Arizona's law unconstitutional when it is a facsimile of the unenforced federal law, firing your Afghanistan commander over a Rolling Stone article, firing Sherrod and rehiring her over the course of the same weekend and blaming Youtube? Is that what you mean by good governance? Is it a Harvard Law degree and all the other b.s. community development bona fides that enable you to perform such good governance?

Last edited by Salt; 08-03-2010 at 01:03 PM..
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  #87  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I'm not so sure.

Dan Rather went from hosting the evening news 5 nights a week with a nightly audience of 10 million to a weekly show with an audience of 1 million.

Over a 30 day period that totals 200 million viewers with CBS to 4 million with HDnet.

Breitbart's web properties currently boast a total of 15 million pageviews per month. An equivlent downsizing in audience to that of Rather would be a weekly newsletter with an audience of 75,000.
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  #88  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

This is a complete non-sequiter. I know that you think Barack Obama has been a bad president. I disagree, but even so it's quite possible to be a smart and driven person, go through life constantly building up a base of knowledge and expertise about public policy, and still fail as a President. What I'm saying is that Obama has clearly done that, and Palin has not.
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  #89  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:04 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Don't forget that time Obama bowed to the Japanese.

How angry did that make you?
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  #90  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:05 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Quoting Don:
we call her ignorant and uneducated because she is obviously out of her depth when she discusses policy. If anything, this has very little to do with where she went to school and everything to do with her attitude towards knowledge and expertise. Someone interested in good governance should continue to learn about these things long after getting a diploma. Palin obviously has not.
Sounds reasonable, but would examples of "good governance" include, for example, waiting 60 days to get down to business and meet with the BP CEO, declaring Arizona's law unconstitutional when it is a facsimile of the unenforced federal law, firing your Afghanistan commander over a Rolling Stone article, firing Sherrod and rehiring her over the course of the same weekend and blaming Youtube? Is that what you mean by good governance? Is it a Harvard Law degree and all the other b.s. bona fides that enable you to perform such good governance? Maybe a couple term papers on being black at Princeton?
Is there a conservative willing step up to bat in this conversation and contribute just one reasonable, honest argument? Maybe for the thrill of doing something new and perhaps even a little shocking?
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  #91  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:07 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Okay, Don, fine. What I am saying is that your basic philosophy and values do a lot more to determine whether you do more harm than good than your native intelligence, however defined by whomever. Obama and Michelle may be the smartest people ever, but they have been corrupted and spoiled. Maybe they are victims of history. Perhaps they will have an epiphany ( I like that word today) and reform themselves, but right now they don't deserve any sympathy.

Last edited by Salt; 08-03-2010 at 01:15 PM..
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  #92  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:16 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quoting:
Don't forget that time Obama bowed to the Japanese.

How angry did that make you?


It was entirely fitting for him.
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  #93  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:42 PM
sapeye sapeye is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by listener View Post
Yes, that was quite an 'eye-popping' moment there.
Reminded me of the Hair on Fire expression of Jane Hamsher when listening to, hmmm, I can't remember to whom. It was a while ago now.
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  #94  
Old 08-03-2010, 01:44 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
Great diavlog, btw. I like conversations about conversations (about conversations?) about race. Especially when conducted by people as acute as Glenn and John.
I agree. Wish the discussion here was more about the diavlog, but I'm feeling too lazy to take the lead.
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  #95  
Old 08-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Can't wait for the conservative reaction if Obama ever kisses and hold hands with the Saudi's Bush style.

Might see some heads explode scanners style.


Last edited by Big_Time_Gumshoe; 08-03-2010 at 03:04 PM..
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  #96  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:04 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Re gumshoe's clip above: is that a representation of Spike Lee after watching this vlog? Or is it Cornell West?
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  #97  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:11 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: What is a liberal arts education for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Don't worry they cover this, too. Suffice it to say Western man is evil and everything he does destroys the pristine environment into which he was born.
personal experience? which college/classes?
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  #98  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:36 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
How many people suffered under her prejudice before she was cured of it?
she says he was the first white farmer that came to her for help saving his farm. ( @ 17 min. of the full video)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
This is as good a case as any, brought to us courtesy of Breitbart,
In that it all based on lies and distortions? I'd agree, that is the best breitbart has to offer. glad you recognize that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
which describes the problems associated with big government programs and give-aways.
yes, its terrible the way people in desperate straights are helped. I'm sure the world would be a vastly better place if that white farmer had lost his land.
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  #99  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:40 PM
Simon Willard Simon Willard is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Is there a conservative willing step up to bat in this conversation and contribute just one reasonable, honest argument? Maybe for the thrill of doing something new and perhaps even a little shocking?
Hey, I'm in for a thrill today. As Salt mentioned, Michelle Obama wrote a senior thesis. I looked at it and found it embarrassingly vapid and meaningless. Oh well. This doesn't help Salt's argument since Michelle wasn't elected to anything.
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  #100  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:56 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Is there a conservative willing step up to bat in this conversation and contribute just one reasonable, honest argument?
About anything in particular?
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  #101  
Old 08-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quoting Simon:
As Salt mentioned, Michelle Obama wrote a senior thesis. I looked at it and found it embarrassingly vapid and meaningless. Oh well. This doesn't help Salt's argument since Michelle wasn't elected to anything.
I'll credit you with actually reading it and I'll take your word for your assessment. However, her opinions do matter. She is the spouse complement for the candidate sent straight from central casting. She has acted as an effective mouthpiece and has given lots of speeches denouncing the USA and capitalism. Liberals adore her. Harvard Law School fell in love with her. She and Sotomayor go together like pepper and salt. She is a significant symbol and a symptom. Keep kidding yourself.
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  #102  
Old 08-03-2010, 06:30 PM
Big_Time_Gumshoe Big_Time_Gumshoe is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Why not spin a classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZi6U811hxE&feature=fvw

So do you have the goods on Obama's birth certificate or don't you?

Last edited by Big_Time_Gumshoe; 08-03-2010 at 06:42 PM..
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  #103  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:56 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Time_Gumshoe View Post
Why not spin a classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZi6U811hxE&feature=fvw

So do you have the goods on Obama's birth certificate or don't you?
In light of the festival of chest-thumping commentary that has followed a very thoughtful and insightful diavlog, I nominate the above for the "Most Substantive Post Award".
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  #104  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:25 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by look View Post
About anything in particular?
I'm just waitin' for my man...

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  #105  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:28 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

lol...I wanted to post after your request, 'My kingdom for an honest man!'
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  #106  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:31 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by look View Post
lol...I wanted to post after your request, 'My kingdom for an honest man!'
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  #107  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:29 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
niklkibong, whether Glenn and John believe any particular issue matters isn't dispositive, ya know? These things do matter in the context of contemporary politics. And the meta-issue - that is, the freedom with which some people (read Breitbart, e.g.) feel to assert anything whatever, regardless of facts; and whether anybody is going to push back with equal force - is extremely relevant to me. Liars thrive when everybody, except the people who believe them, ignores them. That's double plus ungood.
So in your world, are the people who accuse the teaparty participants of calling black congressmen ******s the same as Breitbart in that they feel free to assert anything regardless of facts?
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  #108  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:32 PM
willmybasilgrow willmybasilgrow is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Yeah but John, I don't remember who the 16th street baptist church bombers were. Or who killed the civil rights workers in Mississippi. Or who bombed the bus in Gadsden. You know? I don't remember the name of the white man in Gena Louisiana, but I remember about the case.
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  #109  
Old 08-03-2010, 09:33 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
yes, its terrible the way people in desperate straights are helped. I'm sure the world would be a vastly better place if that white farmer had lost his land.
Maybe if the government stayed out of the business of farming and all other business for that matter, good farms would thrive and not so good farms would fail. Now that would make the world a vastly better place.
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  #110  
Old 08-03-2010, 10:21 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
So in your world, are the people who accuse the teaparty participants of calling black congressmen ******s the same as Breitbart in that they feel free to assert anything regardless of facts?
I think you just asserted something regardless of facts.
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  #111  
Old 08-03-2010, 10:22 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Maybe if the government stayed out of the business of farming and all other business for that matter, good farms would thrive and not so good farms would fail. Now that would make the world a vastly better place.
Or maybe not.
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  #112  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:06 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I think you just asserted something regardless of facts.
I didn't assert anything. I asked you a question.

Oh! you were kidding.

But really, Jeff, since you are concerned about unsubstantiated assertions aren't you dismayed at the repetition of the one I referred to?

Never mind.

Last edited by badhatharry; 08-03-2010 at 11:24 PM..
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  #113  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:16 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I didn't assert anything. I asked you a question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
So in your world, are the people who accuse the teaparty participants of calling black congressmen ******s the same as Breitbart in that they feel free to assert anything regardless of facts?
Look at what I bolded, harry. That's an assertion. You're assuming facts not in evidence.
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  #114  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:20 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

No more stupid than answering your trolling.
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  #115  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:38 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default On "Learning Moments"

I would distinguish between what could be learned and the tendency for little to be learned. I agree that much of it tends to be theater - but that doesn't mean there isn't anything of substance to be learned, or discussed. The problem is that so much of our political discourse is simply hackish in general. Partisanship, talking points and scorekeeping take the day.

So when Glenn and John say there is nothing to be learned (again, I prefer "discussed"), I think that's really not true. For instance let's take the Rand Paul flap. The libertarian/tea party willingness to even entertain such foolishness speaks volumes about their priorities, and especially their view of race and class in America.

This is how I see it being important: Paul's anti-civil rights view diminishes the legacy of racism, resulting current social and human capital in minority communities. He and Tea Party's homogeneity and claims of "government intrusion" largely framed around minority/welfare issues, specifically in regard to social programs. Granted these are pieces of a puzzle, but I think you can draw a pretty straight line from his statement to his party platform. Ditto the Macaca (?) comment. And generally the large number of racist Tea Party crap ever published.

Glenn points to "structural problems" driving minority poverty. But how can he divorce this from Republican opposition to government intervention? He can't seriously by the BS notion that these communities will pull themselves up without targeted government help? And that's exactly what modern conservatism does not want. They may pretend that they want smart government - but they never show any platform but cuts. They basically have zero to offer minority communities. Their one proposal for ending generational poverty through education - vouchers/charters - is aimed solely at parents motivated to escape the ghetto. This is not a scaleable solution, it is a band-aid for certain parents who already have enough human/social capital to succeed and are stuck sending their kids to school with other ghetto kids.
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  #116  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:39 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Look at what I bolded, harry. That's an assertion. You're assuming facts not in evidence.
So are the facts that I'm asserting that people are asserting that teapartiers called black congressmen ******s? or are the facts that I am asserting that they are doing their asserting without any evidence?

Both assertions of mine are completely accurate.
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  #117  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:44 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
So are the facts that I'm asserting that people are asserting that teapartiers called black congressmen ******s? or are the facts that I am asserting that they are doing their asserting without any evidence?

Both assertions of mine are completely accurate.
The testimony of John Lewis is certainly evidence. The corroborating testimony of others is too.
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  #118  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Look at what I bolded, harry. That's an assertion. You're assuming facts not in evidence.
No, no, Jeff! You've got it all wrong! It's obviously a question, not an assertion.

Just like, Is Obama really an American citizen?

"I think that's a fair question."


Get with the program, dude!
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Last edited by listener; 08-04-2010 at 12:03 AM..
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  #119  
Old 08-04-2010, 12:07 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The testimony of John Lewis is certainly evidence. The corroborating testimony of others is too.
Please provide a link where Lewis specifically says he was called a ******. I've been looking for quite a while and haven't found one.


But I found this.


Quote:
Worker protest at New Communities eventually garnered some assistance from the United Farm Workers Union in nearby Florida in the person of one of its most formidable organizers, black State Director, the late Mack Lyons. The September 28, 1974 UFW newspaper El Malcriado, page two, reported on the worker’s strike (“Children Farm Workers Strike Black Co-op” www.farmworkermovement.org/ufwarchives) and the UFW stepped in to protect black farm workers from exploitation by NCI. Fearful of both UFW efforts to unionize NCI’s labor force and scrutiny by the Georgia State Wage and Hour Division, the Sherrods and NCI management hastily issued checks in varying amounts to strikers to makeup ostensibly for minimum wage differentials. It is bitter irony that the Sherrods have succeeded in being awarded $300,000 following a discrimination lawsuit, while Mrs. Hawkins and other impoverished NCI black laborers whom NCI exploited were never adequately compensated for their “pain and suffering”.
Was this before or after Shirley's rehabilitation?

Last edited by badhatharry; 08-04-2010 at 12:09 AM..
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  #120  
Old 08-04-2010, 12:12 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Post-Post-Racial America (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by listener View Post
No, no, Jeff! You've got it all wrong! It's obviously a question, not an assertion.

Just like, Is Obama really an American citizen?

"I think that's a fair question."


Get with the program, dude!
See, now that's not nice. Maybe you need a nap.
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