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  #41  
Old 07-26-2010, 02:35 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

To follow up on this Here's a column that talks about it -- both the problem with associating the small negative corrolation with career-oriented activities as one based on "rural" cultural markers and the positive effect that comes from being from an atypical geographic background.
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  #42  
Old 07-26-2010, 03:22 PM
JoeK
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Wow! These days, you rarely get to see somebody's bigotry so plainly expressed.
It's just a name of an ethnic group, or quasy-ethnic group, or a proto ethnic group that will probably never developed into a real ethnic group. Those who belong to the group should be able to call themselves whatever they want, so why not Real Americans?

But I can see how it can annoy you, for example Fidel Castro is irked that the USA appropriated the term "America" for itself.
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  #43  
Old 07-26-2010, 03:39 PM
Rathertired Rathertired is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Here's a Webb quote from that Op-Ed: "Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs. The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years."

If Webb thinks Asians have benefited from "special government programs" and not a strong work ethic combined with attitudes towards education, substance abuse, speaking proper English, having children within wedlock, the shame of being arrested, etc., etc. that the white working-class don't share (don't share in the least) he's delusional.

If he doesn't actually believe this (if he's even vaguely aware of what's going on with poorer whites in his home state of Virginia) then he's engaging in a pathetic feel-good lie.

If Webb wants more class-based (rather than race-based) affirmative action, fine. If he wants to talk about economics, the decline of unions or income inequality, fantastic.

But the idea that Asians are succeeding because of "special government programs" is ludicrous.

Nor are "special government programs" the reasons there are Jews on the Supreme Court (Webb begins his op-ed by talking about the Supreme Court's non-Protestant make-up!) any more than it's the reason there are so many Jews on the medical faculty at Johns Hopkins.

Webb could touch on the cultural pathologies that are now common among the salt-of-the-earth "real American" rural working-class white Protestants and their need for help (their need for "special government programs") -- instead he indulges in tawdry fantasy that's unworthy of him.

We could also go into the farce that occurs when (rural white) communities refute evolution and then find, lo and behold, that their children aren't getting into Harvard, Yale, MIT or pre-med at Carnegie Mellon, but rather are looking for jobs at Walmart. To state yet one more cultural pathology Webb ignores in favor of fantasy.

Last edited by Rathertired; 07-15-2011 at 10:28 PM..
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  #44  
Old 07-26-2010, 04:00 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
It's just a name of an ethnic group, or quasy-ethnic group, or a proto ethnic group that will probably never developed into a real ethnic group. Those who belong to the group should be able to call themselves whatever they want, so why not Real Americans?

But I can see how it can annoy you, for example Fidel Castro is irked that the USA appropriated the term "America" for itself.
Not even a nice try, Joe. It was a triumphalist exclusion of everybody except those in one relatively narrow class - by a member of that class (or, are you Canadian? then a wannabe member) - from full unqualified inclusion in what it means to be "American." Note how I avoided the word "supremecist" - I'm being more polite than you were.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 07-26-2010 at 04:35 PM.. Reason: heh - "more politer"!
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  #45  
Old 07-26-2010, 04:45 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Not if we roll back the Bush tax cuts.
In the same speech, Will deals with your fallacy ( a fallacy btw that Europe is becoming more aware of every day):

"It is time for us to understand that the model we share - so far in attenuated form - with Europe simply cannot work. It states that we should [over] tax the rich (a.k.a. the investing and job-creating class), while counting on spending the revenues of investment and job creation. No one has explained to the political class that it is very dangerous to try to leap a chasm in two bounds."

I guess if you want to believe the Obama admin on its continually fraudulant spending and revenue projections, which continue to be refuted by even their own people (albeit after important congressional votes), that's up to you.

His hypocrisy and dishonesty are reaching mythic proportions. Just recently his demonizing of Republicans who asked for a matching spending cut before passing unemployment benefits for people out of work (some over 90 weeks) when he himself in Nov before an earlier extension had said:

"Now, it's important to note that the bill I signed will not add to our deficit. It is fully paid for, and so it is fiscally responsible,” Obama said on Nov. 6, 2009."

In other words, Obama was demonizing republicans for doing something he claimed was fiscally responsible nine months ago.

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  #46  
Old 07-26-2010, 04:50 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathertired View Post
Here's a Webb quote from that Op-Ed: "Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs. The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years."

If Webb thinks Asians have benefited from "special government programs" and not a strong work ethic combined with attitudes towards education, substance abuse, speaking proper English, having children within wedlock, the shame of being arrested, etc., etc. that the white working-class don't share (don't share in the least) he's delusional.

If he doesn't actually believe this (if he's even vaguely aware of what's going on with poorer whites in his home state of Virginia) then he's engaging in a pathetic feel-good lie that would perhaps shame Jessie Jackson at his most egregious.

I live in the Rust Belt. In many small mill and factory towns you can find tiny take-out Chinese restaurants run by immigrants. Many motels are run by Indian immigrants. These people work more than 70 hour weeks. Their children are succeeding better than the working-class whites who surround them. Much, much better. The Asians and Indians aren't getting arrested for bar fights or illegally selling prescription pills or crashing their cars while drunk or blowing up their bathrooms while attempting to make meth or beating their wives and kids. And many of these Asians and Indians have family living in rural poverty back home worse than any depression-era American white suffered eighty years ago, much less now.

If Webb wants more class-based (rather than race-based) affirmative action, fine.

But the idea that Asians are succeeding because of "special government programs" is a brazen and pathetic lie.

Nor are "special government programs" the reasons there are Jews on the Supreme Court (Webb begins his op-ed by talking about the Supreme Court's non-Protestant make-up!) any more than it's the reason there are so many Jews on the medical faculty at Johns Hopkins.

Webb could be honest and talk about the cultural pathologies that are now epidemic among the salt-of-the-earth "real American" rural working-class white Protestants and their need for help (their need for "special government programs") -- instead he indulges in tawdry fantasy that's unworthy of him.

If rural working-class whites want or need (what many conservatives would view as) charity ("special government programs"), fine. But don't pretend there are Jews on the Supreme Court or Asians and Indian-American excelling well beyond the rural whites they live beside because they've been the recipients of "special goverment programs" that the rural whites were denied.

We could also go into the farce that occurs when (rural white) communities refute evolution and then find, lo and behold, that their children aren't getting into Harvard, Yale, MIT or pre-med at Carnegie Mellon, but rather are looking for jobs at Walmart. To state yet one more cultural pathology Webb ignores in favor of fantasy.
I actually fully agree with you there
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  #47  
Old 07-26-2010, 05:24 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Posts: 7,750
Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
In the same speech, Will deals with your fallacy ( a fallacy btw that Europe is becoming more aware of every day):

"It is time for us to understand that the model we share - so far in attenuated form - with Europe simply cannot work. It states that we should [over] tax the rich (a.k.a. the investing and job-creating class), while counting on spending the revenues of investment and job creation. No one has explained to the political class that it is very dangerous to try to leap a chasm in two bounds."

I guess if you want to believe the Obama admin on its continually fraudulant spending and revenue projections, which continue to be refuted by even their own people (albeit after important congressional votes), that's up to you.

His hypocrisy and dishonesty are reaching mythic proportions. Just recently his demonizing of Republicans who asked for a matching spending cut before passing unemployment benefits for people out of work (some over 90 weeks) when he himself in Nov before an earlier extension had said:

"Now, it's important to note that the bill I signed will not add to our deficit. It is fully paid for, and so it is fiscally responsible,” Obama said on Nov. 6, 2009."

In other words, Obama was demonizing republicans for doing something he claimed was fiscally responsible nine months ago.

Change You Can Believe In!
Based on this, I think I can conclude that you don't quite understand what a "fallacy" is.

Will is presenting an argument. Not just any argument, but one weighted down by classical allusion and ideologically suspect paraphrases of the founders and far too many words. In other other words, a ponderous, pompous waving of hands substituting the assertion of erudition for simple logic. I am sure that a really careful reading would expose one or two fallacies, at the very least - but the following struck me:

Quote:
Calvin Coolidge, the last president with whom I fully agreed
Not a recommendation I'd flaunt, but that's just me.

Here's an argument that actually includes numbers: (imagine that.)

Quote:
Some critics continue to assert that President George W. Bush’s policies bear little responsibility for the deficits the nation faces over the coming decade — that, instead, the new policies of President Barack Obama and the 111th Congress are to blame. Most recently, a Heritage Foundation paper downplayed the role of Bush-era policies (for more on that paper, see p. 4). Nevertheless, the fact remains: Together with the economic downturn, the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years (see Figure 1).
And we've all already seen Figure 1., thank to TwinSwords.

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  #48  
Old 07-26-2010, 05:59 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Posts: 1,077
Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathertired View Post
Here's a Webb quote from that Op-Ed: "Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs. The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years."

If Webb thinks Asians have benefited from "special government programs" and not a strong work ethic combined with attitudes towards education, substance abuse, speaking proper English, having children within wedlock, the shame of being arrested, etc., etc. that the white working-class don't share (don't share in the least) he's delusional.

If he doesn't actually believe this (if he's even vaguely aware of what's going on with poorer whites in his home state of Virginia) then he's engaging in a pathetic feel-good lie that would perhaps shame Jessie Jackson at his most egregious.

I live in the Rust Belt. In many small mill and factory towns you can find tiny take-out Chinese restaurants run by immigrants. Many motels are run by Indian immigrants. These people work more than 70 hour weeks. Their children are succeeding better than the working-class whites who surround them. Much, much better. The Asians and Indians aren't getting arrested for bar fights or illegally selling prescription pills or crashing their cars while drunk or blowing up their bathrooms while attempting to make meth or beating their wives and kids. And many of these Asians and Indians have family living in rural poverty back home worse than any depression-era American white suffered eighty years ago, much less now.

If Webb wants more class-based (rather than race-based) affirmative action, fine.

But the idea that Asians are succeeding because of "special government programs" is a brazen and pathetic lie.

Nor are "special government programs" the reasons there are Jews on the Supreme Court (Webb begins his op-ed by talking about the Supreme Court's non-Protestant make-up!) any more than it's the reason there are so many Jews on the medical faculty at Johns Hopkins.

Webb could be honest and talk about the cultural pathologies that are now epidemic among the salt-of-the-earth "real American" rural working-class white Protestants and their need for help (their need for "special government programs") -- instead he indulges in tawdry fantasy that's unworthy of him.

If rural working-class whites want or need (what many conservatives would view as) charity ("special government programs"), fine. But don't pretend there are Jews on the Supreme Court or Asians and Indian-American excelling well beyond the rural whites they live beside because they've been the recipients of "special goverment programs" that the rural whites were denied.

We could also go into the farce that occurs when (rural white) communities refute evolution and then find, lo and behold, that their children aren't getting into Harvard, Yale, MIT or pre-med at Carnegie Mellon, but rather are looking for jobs at Walmart. To state yet one more cultural pathology Webb ignores in favor of fantasy.

Sorry, I'm not going plow through all this verbiage. Can you make a succinct point or is that impossible? You write like Keith Olbermann talks, that is endlessly & without a point.
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  #49  
Old 07-26-2010, 06:01 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
Sorry, I'm not going plow through all this verbiage. Can you make a succinct point or is that impossible? You write like Keith Olbermann talks, that is endlessly without a point.
If you didn't "plow" through it, how did you reap the judgment that it was pointless?
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  #50  
Old 07-26-2010, 06:43 PM
Rathertired Rathertired is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Nah, I'm the one that should be "sorry."

Let me then apologize for using paragraph breaks, avoiding comma splices and assuming a range of cultural reference that extends beyond cable news personalities.

I'm sure I can only imagine how frustrating this must be for you.
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  #51  
Old 07-26-2010, 07:08 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Yeah, well its good to know you can express an idea in less than 500 words. Keep up the good work.
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  #52  
Old 07-26-2010, 11:13 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
Sorry, I'm not going plow through all this verbiage. Can you make a succinct point or is that impossible? You write like Keith Olbermann talks, that is endlessly & without a point.
@Rathertired:

Seems from your response that you don't need to hear this, but just in case ... I thought your response was a superb one, and I am sorry to see that rco's computer didn't choose an opportune moment to have a disk crash.

Please do not let the slings and arrows from the mouth-breathers inhibit your writing in any way from here on out.
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  #53  
Old 07-26-2010, 11:20 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
[...]
Quiz: In the image below, please identify harkin.



(via, via, via)
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  #54  
Old 07-26-2010, 11:31 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
So you think that the smartest people from each demographic will be in touch with the needs aspirations and realities of ordinary working and middle class Americans. What in the world makes you think that?
Good question. I'm not sure I know the answer right off the top of my head. I will have to get back to you on that. I know that is weak, but Michael Wood, the guy who coined the term "meritocracy" wrote a classic on the subject, The Rise of the Meritocracy, exploring its contradictions. Charles Murray also explores the problem in The Bell Curve. I need to refresh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
And why does the lack of this 'in touchness' explain why we have the trade and immigration policies we have?
I know the most about trade because I followed that debate (over Nafta and Gatt) very closely in the 1990's. The most influential voices were the elite trade economists Paul Samuelson, Paul Krugman, and Jagdish Bhagwati, all of whom advised the Clinton Administration in favor, arguing and punditing that these two agreements would not adversely affect American wages and working conditions. This was contrary to standard textbook theory -- factor-price equalization theory -- as they knew full well, Samuelson above all, and I don't think they would have advised the way they did if they had had a lot of friends and relatives in the American working-class. But they didn't so they didn't care -- or, rather, they cared about other things instead.

Clinton didn't know and trusted their advice. The rest is history.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 07-26-2010 at 11:46 PM..
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  #55  
Old 07-27-2010, 01:35 PM
mattcbrown mattcbrown is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Also, the point of Douthat's column is that "white Christians" (I personally prefer "Real Americans", but that's just me)
Well! Thanks so much for coming. It's been great seeing you, but the hour is getting late after all, and the wife and I should really be turning in right about now. Psst! Honey... Lock the door when he leaves.
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  #56  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:52 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
Also, the point of Douthat's column is that "white Christians" (I personally prefer "Real Americans", but that's just me) is a meaningful group and one important manifestation of their shared sense of identity is, according to Douthat, paranoia and hatred they have for liberal elite.
..... ↑
..... ↑
..... ↑

..... Things
..... that
..... probably
..... aren't
..... related.

..... ↓
..... ↓
..... ↓

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  #57  
Old 07-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Even Scher is not as blatantly partisan as Fernholz: you'd think Tim works for the current admin.
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  #58  
Old 07-28-2010, 11:27 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit View Post
Even Scher is not as blatantly partisan as Fernholz: you'd think Tim works for the current admin.
This is an explicitly partisan pairing, don't you think?
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  #59  
Old 07-29-2010, 01:29 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: It's Hot (Tim Fernholz & Conn Carroll)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
This is an explicitly partisan pairing, don't you think?
Yes, unfortunately. My point is that Conn is better when not forced to defend one side, and I suspect that Tim would be more interesting as well.
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