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  #81  
Old 07-12-2010, 06:25 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
You were right the first time.

I don't object to Obama or Bush or JFK or Biden or Hillary all professing their love of Jesus. Wasn't Bill Clinton a born-again Xtian too? (Not that you could believe a word he said ever).

I greatly admire Jimmy Carter who is a born-again Southern Baptist, and I admire MLK much more.

I agree that Brendan and Jeff can't have it both ways: You can't ridicule Republican religiosity while downplaying or ignoring Dem. religiosity. You can't say Bush had crazy religious beliefs without saying that MLK did as well.

The important distinction is to what extent religion interferes with secular government. Republicans have a rabid anti-gay, anti-abortion base that lobbies for specific religious teachings being applied to law. Sort of Sharia Lite. MLK, on the other hand, was deeply religious, but his agenda was consistent with secular democratic rights.
I don't ridicule "religiosity." That's something for which argument is better suited. I do ridicule absurdity, and the standard I apply to religious people is the same as the one I apply to non-religious people.
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  #82  
Old 07-12-2010, 06:31 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Part of the experience that at least some evangelicals claim is an explicitly "personal" relationship with Jesus Christ. It's far more than imagining someone to whom your prayers are directed. To the extent that it's not just disingenuous, I think it's troubling.
Do you find MLK's words from his book "Stride Toward Freedom" troubling?

Quote:
I decided to take my problem to God. With my head in my hands, I bowed over the kitchen table and prayed aloud. The words I spoke to God that midnight are still vivid in my memory....At that moment, I experienced the presence of the Divine as I had never experienced God before. It seemed as though I could hear the quiet assurance of an inner voice saying "Stand up for justice, stand up for truth; and God will be at your side forever."
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  #83  
Old 07-12-2010, 06:50 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Do you find MLK's words from his book "Stride Toward Freedom" troubling?
This deserves a longer essay than I can produce at the moment. "Experiencing the Divine" is something I can understand, quite possibly because I was brought up as a Catholic and because I have explicitly had that experience when I was a part of the Church (before I was fifteen.) I think that we're wired to feel those things (probably as a side effect of "parent-love" circuitry and cradle experiences, among other things) and that that's explanatory of Religious experience generally. I don't think that's the same as experiencing a "Personal Jesus" as that's been described to me, where people are encouraged to imagine a real person with whom they can have casual conversations, ask advice, etc... I'm leaving a lot unsaid, but I hope the distinction I think I see is at least murkily available here.
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  #84  
Old 07-12-2010, 06:55 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
This deserves a longer essay than I can produce at the moment. "Experiencing the Divine" is something I can understand, quite possibly because I was brought up as a Catholic and because I have explicitly had that experience when I was a part of the Church (before I was fifteen.) I think that we're wired to feel those things (probably as a side effect of "parent-love" circuitry and cradle experiences, among other things) and that that's explanatory of Religious experience generally. I don't think that's the same as experiencing a "Personal Jesus" as that's been described to me, where people are encouraged to imagine a real person with whom they can have casual conversations, ask advice, etc... I'm leaving a lot unsaid, but I hope the distinction I think I see is at least murkily available here.
yes, i think i'm at least murkily seeing the difference you're pointing at and it does indeed seem a bit more creepy to me too. thanks for the clarification.
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  #85  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:11 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

FWIW, I think there's a difference between having a "personal relationship with God" as in praying, feeling God's presence, and so forth, which is very common, and feeling that God has called you to do something specific that you wouldn't otherwise do -- or at least claiming that you feel this way. I mean, it's fine and dandy to say that you think God wants you to serve the public, but when you start saying that you have God's stamp of approval on your politics, that's when I start getting creeped out.

That said, if I agreed with that politician, I'd still vote for them, even if I was creeped out.
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  #86  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:12 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
FWIW, I think there's a difference between having a "personal relationship with God" as in praying, feeling God's presence, and so forth, which is very common, and feeling that God has called you to do something specific that you wouldn't otherwise do -- or at least claiming that you feel this way.
Yeah, I think that's a part what I wanted to get across.
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  #87  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:13 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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....and that that's explanatory of Religious experience generally.
You may be right about what explains religious experience, but that's not the point. The point is whether you apply a double standard to left-wing theists and right-wing theists.

For example, when Barack Obama says, "I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life...."

...you give him a pass (or worse, you assume he's lying). If Bush said that you'd take it at face value and call him loony tunes.
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  #88  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:15 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
This deserves a longer essay than I can produce at the moment. "Experiencing the Divine" is something I can understand, quite possibly because I was brought up as a Catholic and because I have explicitly had that experience when I was a part of the Church (before I was fifteen.) I think that we're wired to feel those things (probably as a side effect of "parent-love" circuitry and cradle experiences, among other things) and that that's explanatory of Religious experience generally. I don't think that's the same as experiencing a "Personal Jesus" as that's been described to me, where people are encouraged to imagine a real person with whom they can have casual conversations, ask advice, etc... I'm leaving a lot unsaid, but I hope the distinction I think I see is at least murkily available here.
I don't know about casual conversations (I know quite a few evangelicals and none of them have conversations with Jesus about basketball or sneakers), but all branches of Christianity hold that Jesus was died and resurrected, that he is a distinct member of the Trinity and the personal savior. There really isn't that chasm between evangelicals and everyone else--it's more a matter of explication and emphasis than anything else.
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  #89  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:15 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Well I'm inclined to believe that Jesus valued honesty over dependency-syndrome creating government giveaways.
Isn't pride a sin?
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  #90  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:18 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Leaving aside that you did not actually make any points that I did not address -- and no, merely repeating your assertion that Daniels is "competent" because of poll numbers while refusing to read a voluminous catalog documenting his failings is not a "point" -- you know what is said about people who declare themselves the victor.
Extremely high approval ratings and a sweeping reelection in a year that was bad for his party do suggest success, whether you wish to accept it or not. If you have a specific claim you want to discuss, feel free to bring it up. I'm not going to read a voluminous screed against Daniels from a third party.
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  #91  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:19 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
You may be right about what explains religious experience, but that's not the point. The point is whether you apply a double standard to left-wing theists and right-wing theists.

For example, when Barack Obama says, "I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life...."

...you give him a pass (or worse, you assume he's lying). If Bush said that you'd take it at face value and call him loony tunes.
I think you need parse what I've said, so far. I don't make direct political distinctions with regard to religion. I make distinctions based on whether I have a problem with particular beliefs and practices.

I do think that there are more loons among the Republicans, right now - but I think that's happenstance, because that party made a strategic decision that embracing a class of religious believers was in its interest. But that's not the same as what you're accusing me of.
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  #92  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:20 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
It's always easy to cherry-pick the Bible while ignoring other passages to justify what you'd like to believe, isn't it?
I forgot to mention the irony of your using a lefty blog's religious argument in the context of attempting to argue that the right is more explicitly guided by religious sentiment.
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  #93  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:21 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
I forgot to mention the irony of your using a lefty blog's religious argument in the context of attempting to argue that the right is more explicitly guided by religious sentiment.
Wow, that flew right past, didn't it?
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  #94  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:26 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I think you need parse what I've said, so far. I don't make direct political distinctions with regard to religion. I make distinctions based on whether I have a problem with particular beliefs and practices.

I do think that there are more loons among the Republicans, right now - but I think that's happenstance, because that party made a strategic decision that embracing a class of religious believers was in its interest. But that's not the same as what you're accusing me of.
It'd be interesting to see some stats on this but off by hand, I think that Pentecostals are hardly overwhelmingly republican. The Pentecostal churches in my city tend to be in poorer, urban areas. The Pentecostal movement seems to have a noteworthy presence in the Latino community, too:http://www.nhclc.org/news/latino-rel...ifts-and-trend
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  #95  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:28 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Wow, that flew right past, didn't it?
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  #96  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:36 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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I don't make direct political distinctions with regard to religion. I make distinctions based on whether I have a problem with particular beliefs and practices.
So you have a problem with someone talking to Jesus but no problem with the President stating that he is a "devout Christian" who " believe[s] in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ" and who expects to be "cleansed of sin" and rewarded with "eternal life."

Forgive me if I fail to see a significant difference.

Quote:
I do think that there are more loons among the Republicans, right now, but I think that's happenstance, because that party made a strategic decision that embracing a class of religious believers was in its interest.
I don't think you can remotely demonstrate that. African Americans and Latinos are certainly among the most religious ethnic groups in the country and they have been "embraced" because their vote is in the interest of Dems.

From Obama and Biden down to the inhabitants of the poorest (and most solidly Dem.) neighborhoods in America you have Dems. who consistently support the beliefs that you classify as "loony" when Repubs. hold them.

Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher, for example, are consistent about denouncing and ridiculing religion. Neither of them would have any difficulty saying Obama is a loon for believing that he's going to Heaven when he dies.

I could be wrong, but I think you and Brendan only go full-bore atheist when the "loons" are Republicans. I'll drop it here though because I think we've gone around in circles long enough, and because I have no interest in defending Republicans or theists.
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  #97  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:38 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
It'd be interesting to see some stats on this but off by hand, I think that Pentecostals are hardly overwhelmingly republican. The Pentecostal churches in my city tend to be in poorer, urban areas. The Pentecostal movement seems to have a noteworthy presence in the Latino community, too:http://www.nhclc.org/news/latino-rel...ifts-and-trend
And I think they're mostly all crazy.
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  #98  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:52 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
So you have a problem with someone talking to Jesus but no problem with the President stating that he is a "devout Christian" who " believe[s] in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ" and who expects to be "cleansed of sin" and rewarded with "eternal life."

Forgive me if I fail to see a significant difference.



I don't think you can remotely demonstrate that. African Americans and Latinos are certainly among the most religious ethnic groups in the country and they have been "embraced" because their vote is in the interest of Dems.

From Obama and Biden down to the inhabitants of the poorest (and most solidly Dem.) neighborhoods in America you have Dems. who consistently support the beliefs that you classify as "loony" when Repubs. hold them.

Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher, for example, are consistent about denouncing and ridiculing religion. Neither of them would have any difficulty saying Obama is a loon for believing that he's going to Heaven when he dies.

I could be wrong, but I think you and Brendan only go full-bore atheist when the "loons" are Republicans. I'll drop it here though because I think we've gone around in circles long enough, and because I have no interest in defending Republicans or theists.
I already tried make a distinction, you can make of that what you will. I go "full-bore" when there's a combination of what I see as crazieness and what I perceive as encroachment on the rest of us, or when I perceive depravity. For instance anti-abortion activism is high on my list of things to hate, as is restriction of knowledge (e.g. home schoolers trying to "protect" their children from the secular world), anti-science (from the Left and the Right), restrictive versions of Sharia, fatwas on the lives of infidels, sex taboos that aren't explicitly about mutual consent, and plenty else. I think I'm pretty ecumenical.
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  #99  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:59 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

That's because we all know that God's true message is "Keep me out of politics!"
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  #100  
Old 07-12-2010, 08:36 PM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
So you have a problem with someone talking to Jesus but no problem with the President stating that he is a "devout Christian" who " believe[s] in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ" and who expects to be "cleansed of sin" and rewarded with "eternal life."

Forgive me if I fail to see a significant difference.
Regarding those differences, I pretty much see things the same way... people's religious beliefs tend to seem loony to those on the outside. On a lighter note in that regard, I'm reminded of this.
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  #101  
Old 07-12-2010, 09:42 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: "Feeling" God's presence vs "Feeling" God's guidance

That's a distinction without much difference.
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  #102  
Old 07-12-2010, 10:06 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
That's crap. "Wright's ideology" is caricature of Wright. The whole point of which is to impute that caricature onto the thoughts of Barack Obama and create a set of right-wing talking points. The whole narrative is an exercise in projection.
While Wright is close to a caricature with his vulgarities, his conspiracy theories ("govt created the AIDS!"), etc. it is not caricaturing him to point out what he keeps in reminding us of. He is a nut. Time to stop defending him and to stop defending Obama for having associated with him.
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  #103  
Old 07-12-2010, 10:10 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
There really isn't that chasm between evangelicals and everyone else--it's more a matter of explication and emphasis than anything else.
Sure there is. They call themselves "evangelical" for a reason -- a reason that makes the difference you wish to elide. Religions can be broadly divided into two groups: religious passivists, and religious activists. Passivists aren't concerned with converting non-believers or followers of other faiths, and they don't try to bring the power of the state to bear in enforcing or imposing their religious beliefs on the rest of the population. Passivists believe that "God's plan" will play itself out regardless of what the followers do. Passivists believe they should tend to their own souls, maybe the souls of their children, and leave everyone else alone. Activists, on the other hand, believe it is their responsibility to personally bring God's plan to fruition. They believe they must be proactive in any number of ways, including converting people and controlling the behavior of the population, through state power if need be. The Taliban are a perfect example of religious activists. And American fundamentalists believe that the entire population is cursed and will suffer if their political leaders are not "godly" men who subscribe to strict Christian doctrine. This is one of the reasons Christian conservatives simply cannot conceive of a legitimate separation of church and state; the very concept of such a separation is at odds with fundamentalists' concept of faith and their duty to God, leading inevitably to the widely held belief of Christian conservatives that they must seize the state and bend it to God's will.

People who believe in freedom of thought and freedom of conscience have plenty reason to worry about religious activists, and much less (if any) reason to worry about religious passivists.
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  #104  
Old 07-12-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Sure there is. They call themselves "evangelical" for a reason -- a reason that makes the difference you wish to elide. Religions can be broadly divided into two groups: religious passivists, and religious activists.

...
I think that is a useful distinction to make.
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  #105  
Old 07-12-2010, 11:48 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

"cognitive" MADisonian: "the virulently antisemitic Edward Said"

You've outed yourself as either a total ignoramus, a fringe nutcase or a dishonest slime-merchant. That's a crazy, utterly indefensible characterization.
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  #106  
Old 07-13-2010, 01:49 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Extremely high approval ratings and a sweeping reelection in a year that was bad for his party do suggest success, ...
Sorry, but your earlier claim was about Daniels's competence, not his "success." Getting (re)elected is no measure of competence, as Palin, Bush, Joe Barton, Michele Bachmann, John Boehner (or [your favorite Democratic examples here]) amply demonstrate.

Quote:
I'm not going to read a voluminous screed against Daniels from a third party.
I am shocked, shocked.
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  #107  
Old 07-13-2010, 01:52 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Wow, that flew right past, didn't it?
You can accuse cog.mad. of suffering from plenty of afflictions, but "having a sense of humor" sure ain't one of them.
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  #108  
Old 07-13-2010, 04:36 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Revelations!

Listening to this I suddenly understand why I have never seen a Sci-Fi endorsed by a religious figure. Hard to take such books seriously when you are in the middle of your "End of Times" watch.
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  #109  
Old 07-13-2010, 04:44 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Btw....

People who think Biblical end of times (or any really...) prophecy is relevant to current geo-political considerations scare me a little...
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  #110  
Old 07-13-2010, 12:27 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

I'm sure if you comb the archives of Dr. King or some other prominent social activist preacher's speeches you will find many "inflammatory" remarks. Wright's criticism of Jews or Israel doesn't make him anti-semitic or racist, though in America that seems to be the default intepretation.
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  #111  
Old 07-13-2010, 05:05 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: "Feeling" God's presence vs "Feeling" God's guidance

No, that's really not what I meant. I'm not saying that it's creepier if someone feels God's guidance than it is if they feel his presence. I guess what I meant is that I'm used to the invocation of God in general terms -- along the lines of "God bless America" -- while I'm creeped out when God is used as a justification for a specific policy.
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  #112  
Old 07-13-2010, 05:06 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Revelations!

I get what you're saying, but Orson Scott Card doesn't count?
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  #113  
Old 07-13-2010, 08:16 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Revelations!

I keep meaning to read him. I mean if his books are in every single damn library and bookstore that has any Sci-Fi whatsoever it must be alright I suppose.
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  #114  
Old 07-14-2010, 01:27 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Revelations!

I know I loved Ender's Game when I was a kid. Not sure what I'd think of it if I read it now, though.
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  #115  
Old 07-14-2010, 02:51 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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I know I loved Ender's Game when I was a kid. Not sure what I'd think of it if I read it now, though.
I read it a couple of years ago, after my nephew (then about 16) tossed it aside and pronounced it "stupid." It wasn't horrible, I thought -- a good summer read kind of thing, if fairly predictable and preachy.
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  #116  
Old 07-14-2010, 03:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Well I'm inclined to believe that Jesus valued honesty over dependency-syndrome creating government giveaways.
Incline yourself to believe in the Christianity of this:

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It's Unanimous! GOP Says No To Unemployment Benefits, Yes To Tax Cuts For The Rich
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  #117  
Old 07-14-2010, 06:13 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Sorry, but your earlier claim was about Daniels's competence, not his "success." Getting (re)elected is no measure of competence, as Palin, Bush, Joe Barton, Michele Bachmann, John Boehner (or [your favorite Democratic examples here]) amply demonstrate.

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I'm not going to read a voluminous screed against Daniels from a third party.
I am shocked, shocked.
Here's something else for you not to read, cog.mad.: the latest installment in the ongoing series Midwestern States Governed By Surly Megalomaniacs With Napoleonic Complexes, "Spending Your Way Out Of Bankruptcy, And Lying Your Way Out Of Responsibility."

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... the real news this week that Indiana's job losses under Miracle Mitch are the 5th worst in the country ...
Never forget: George W. Bush's OMB Director.
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  #118  
Old 07-14-2010, 06:24 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Incline yourself to believe in the Christianity of this:

Quote:
It's Unanimous! GOP Says No To Unemployment Benefits, Yes To Tax Cuts For The Rich
And here's a nice follow-up, from Jill at Brilliant at Breakfast, headlined:

Quote:
At what point are their taxes cut enough that they start creating jobs?
On a related note, our man in Indiana reports:

Quote:
[Okay, y'know, I'm not the guy to bound this shit in a nutshell, but here's one: Lugar, who we sent to the Senate two lifetimes ago, and who has rewarded us by doing absolutely nothing but fluff his own resum since, was asked by local teevee about the extension of unemployment benefits on the eve of the Senate vote a few weeks ago. And he muttered something about negotiations, and then said, more clearly, that he expected a deal would get worked out. Well, it didn't--oh, shit, please sit down retroactively--and after the vote Lugar was nowhere to be seen; Choirboy Pence did the heavy lifting of explaining why Republicans who voted against it were really the compassionate ones. So now there's another vote coming up. Indiana's unemployed are hurting, and they aren't being helped by the fact that undercounting them and explaining them away is now a full-time job for Mitch Daniels 2012, Inc. And now Lugar shows up again, microphone held reverently in front of his melting waxwork kisser, to say that he'd really, really vote for the thing if it was just a matter of compassion, but there's the troubling matter of all these budget-busting add-ons he's too busy to name. And this is a guy who--like 98% of his Senate colleagues over the century he's been there--has rubber-stamped $ trillions in Defense Spending, and $ trillions more in supplemental Good Wars, and no one with a microphone can even be bothered asking the fucking question.]
Supply-side Jesus loves them, this they know.
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  #119  
Old 07-14-2010, 06:40 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

Does anyone have anything to say about the err....diavlog? Did anyone learn anything from it? I thought Ms. Butler should have been a lot more explicit about what Pentecostalism is, what the theological teachings of Palin's church are, etc. She makes the point that Pentecostals like to make money, but does not explain what the theological underpinnings of this behavior are.

The main thing I know about Pentecostalism is that the character Po, a hophead medical school dropout in the movie "Hard Times," played by Strother Martin, goes to a Pentecostal church in the movie, as an "observer." I've seen that movie about ten times. I might watch it another 10 times before I die. It's a beautifully constructed movie, and two of the fight scenes are really good.

Diavlog rating: C-/D+
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  #120  
Old 07-18-2010, 09:23 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Are we really not going to conclude that Mel Gibson may be a bit of a racist and anti-semite, on the basis of two events?
It has been a bit more than "two events."

To see this, and other reasons, see Frank Rich's latest column, "The Good News About Mel Gibson." Starts off funny, with Rich putting his tongue in his cheek and his old reviewer's cap on his head, but then he gets a bit more serious and makes an interesting argument about the parallels of the decline and fall of Mel and societal progress in the United States over the same time.

I guess anti-parallels might be a better word. Anyway, a good read.
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