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  #1  
Old 01-10-2010, 07:16 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

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  #2  
Old 01-10-2010, 09:09 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Puzzle spelled out

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/251...1:02&out=51:21


With the one point that democrats may be much better off due to the business cycle running its course and the economy improving. If not by the end of 2010, by 2012.
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  #3  
Old 01-11-2010, 12:55 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Bad Pizza Leads to Indigestion

I had this one nagging nascent beginning of a speculation as I listened: can we jettison the rational voter along with rational expectations? Both Schmitt and York need to take real consumers and voters a little more seriously than just an input.

I also think bhTV should adopt b&w as a masking technique. Mark Schmitt's camera gave me a headache.

I also wondered how many focus groups and auditions it took to make that "The Pizza Turnaround " video. I sure hope more effort went int o the pizza than into selling it.

Last edited by Baltimoron; 01-11-2010 at 01:00 AM..
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  #4  
Old 01-11-2010, 08:46 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

The Domino's ad campaign is a wonder. Most people have known for a generation that their pizza is horrible. And yet, it took a recession, where competitors are lowering prices into an area that used to be the domain of Domino's and Little Caesar's (ugh) and, also apparently, taking some of their market share, to get them to realize their pizza taste like cardboard and ketchup?

The most curious thing of all is how the Domino's folks are framed as if they are part of a cooking reality show where shame and hurt feelings on failure are mixed with pride and determination to do better. The campaign tries to change the messege from 'you know what, most of those letters we've gotten for the last 25 years are right, our pizza sucks. And if we don't do anything about it we may go out of business' to 'we're different, we are listening, we are changing. Jump on board and help us do well!'

The most hilarious part is where the one woman feels she has to explain to the viewer that a pinch of salt won't fix the pizza, they had to basically start over....uh ya think? This is topped by the chef proudly proclaiming they now are going to be using real cheese!
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  #5  
Old 01-11-2010, 10:25 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

I would like to believe Byron York is smart enough not to believe all the talking points he was regurgitating concerning the Underpants Bomber and what that supposedly says about the Obama Administration, but I realize that risks calling him a liar.

Not sure how far I'll make it into this one. I find it nearly impossible to sit through York's made-for-Fox commentary, let alone take him seriously. Didn't he used to be less of an obvious partisan hack?

Byron: if your aim is to preach to the choir/rally the troops, so be it. I guess you're good at that. But if your aim is to get people like me to listen to the perspective of people like you, I suggest refining your approach. You come across as petrified by the thought that you might miss the chance to score some femtobit of political "gain" on every point under discussion. Snooze.

[Added shortly afterward] Okay, I'm out. Sorry to have to miss Mark Schmitt's thoughts, but this is yet another pairing of a liberal who honestly tries to see the full complexity of issues with a conservative who's here only to wave his side's flag. In particular, I'm not going to sit here and listen to Byron misrepresent the history of the filibuster. I'll refer others to, for example, the piece in today's NYT by Thomas Geoghegan, in case anyone reading this is unaware of how things actually happened in the real world.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 01-11-2010 at 10:32 AM..
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  #6  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:22 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
You come across as petrified by the thought that you might miss the chance to score some femtobit of political "gain" on every point under discussion. Snooze.

[Added shortly afterward] Okay, I'm out. Sorry to have to miss Mark Schmitt's thoughts, but this is yet another pairing of a liberal who honestly tries to see the full complexity of issues with a conservative who's here only to wave his side's flag. In particular, I'm not going to sit here and listen to Byron misrepresent the history of the filibuster. I'll refer others to, for example, the piece in today's NYT by Thomas Geoghegan, in case anyone reading this is unaware of how things actually happened in the real world.
I agree that talking points get boring to those who have heard them all, already, and are interested in nuance. That unfortunately is the way a lot of heads talk nowadays. I am reminded of Burhardt's statement that the "essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity".

That's why a forum such is this is so valuable. Lots of complexity here. But I'm not sure if that will ultimately help or change anything. Humans just do what we do, valuable or not.

I looked up femtobit (on google) and couldn't find a thing.

PS I haven't heard the diavlog yet because it isn't loading for some reason.
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  #7  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:25 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Byron: if your aim is to preach to the choir/rally the troops, so be it. I guess you're good at that. But if your aim is to get people like me to listen to the perspective of people like you, I suggest refining your approach. You come across as petrified by the thought that you might miss the chance to score some femtobit of political "gain" on every point under discussion.
Couldnt disagree more. Keep up the great work Byron, the ad hominen just shows you're scoring hits. It's a sign that some are so used to the mainstream media carrying water for the left that respectfully bringing up counterpoint is hard to take and something to criticize.

I do wish that you would have called Mark on his hypocrisy that the filibuster is OK when it's applied to a nomination such as Janice Rodgers Brown because "she's so far out of the mainstream". She's about as mainstream as Sonia Sotomayor and a lot less racist.

As to the hypocrisy of the democrats regarding race..........

Whitewash
The racist history the Democratic Party wants you to forget.


I congratulate liberals in their success at refining the conventional wisdom to a point where a conservative saying an indelicate, race-ignorant (or even a valid point that is spun as racism) remark must be hounded from his position or denied certain rights but a democrat doing the same thing is issued a pass over the ludicrous reasoning that they have done a better job buying votes or of making said race wards of the state.
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  #8  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:46 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Couldnt disagree more. Keep up the great work Byron, the ad hominen just shows you're scoring hits. It's a sign that some are so used to the mainstream media carrying water for the left that respectfully bringing up counterpoint is hard to take and something to criticize.

I do wish that you would have called Mark on his hypocrisy that the filibuster is OK when it's applied to a nomination such as Janice Rodgers Brown because "she's so far out of the mainstream". She's about as mainstream as Sonia Sotomayor and a lot less racist.

As to the hypocrisy of the democrats regarding race..........

Whitewash
The racist history the Democratic Party wants you to forget.


I congratulate liberals in their success at refining the conventional wisdom to a point where a conservative saying an indelicate, race-ignorant (or even a valid point that is spun as racism) remark must be hounded from his position or denied certain rights but a democrat doing the same thing is issued a pass over the ludicrous reasoning that they have done a better job buying votes or of making said race wards of the state.
Do you know what "ad hominem" means? Certainly saying that Byron's points are "talking points" doesn't qualify. Even using the verb "regurgitate" isn't ad hominem - because it doesn't disqualify his points from a personal basis. Even so, your underlying point is false. If what is being said isn't based on facts, then it's definitively not "respectfully bringing up counterpoint." If you actually want to score a point, you'll have to address the underlying point that Byron isn't representing the facts.

However, I take it from the remainder of your post ("Sotomayor is a racist", e.g.) that you're not interested in scoring points, at least not valid, reasoned points.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 01-11-2010 at 11:55 AM..
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  #9  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:50 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
[...]
Yes.

In other words ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Byron: if your aim is to preach to the choir/rally the troops, so be it. I guess you're good at that. [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Couldnt disagree more. Keep up the great work Byron ...
I rest my case.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 01-11-2010 at 12:06 PM.. Reason: missing ellipsis
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  #10  
Old 01-11-2010, 12:02 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I agree that talking points get boring to those who have heard them all, already, and are interested in nuance. That unfortunately is the way a lot of heads talk nowadays.
Oh sure. No disagreement whatsoever. But I think it's worth continuing to push Bloggingheads not to be just another place for talking heads. This site succeeds at that, at its best, but it's not yet 100%. Plus, constant vigilance, and so forth.

Quote:
I am reminded of Burhardt's statement that the "essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity".
Nice line. Reminds me of Sarah Vowell's musings on The Godfather: the other side of moral certainty is closed-mindedness.

[Added: Interesting-looking site. Thanks for the link.]

Quote:
That's why a forum such is this is so valuable. Lots of complexity here. But I'm not sure if that will ultimately help or change anything. Humans just do what we do, valuable or not.
Not much to disagree with there. But the only way we'll get better is by trying and encouraging each other to try.

Quote:
I looked up femtobit (on google) and couldn't find a thing.
A word I just made up to suggest exceptional smallness (femto, to modify bit, used in the usual sense); i.e., a million times tinier than "nano."

First!? Sadly, no. But as of now, on page 1! ;^)

Quote:
PS I haven't heard the diavlog yet because it isn't loading for some reason.
If it's not already working for you, try clearing your browser's cache. That sometimes helps. Also, don't forget about the option to download.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 01-11-2010 at 12:08 PM..
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  #11  
Old 01-11-2010, 12:21 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
[Added: Interesting-looking site. Thanks for the link.]
One example -- he links to "Seven questions that keep physicists up at night."
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  #12  
Old 01-11-2010, 04:27 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
[Added shortly afterward] Okay, I'm out. Sorry to have to miss Mark Schmitt's thoughts, but this is yet another pairing of a liberal who honestly tries to see the full complexity of issues with a conservative who's here only to wave his side's flag. In particular, I'm not going to sit here and listen to Byron misrepresent the history of the filibuster. I'll refer others to, for example, the piece in today's NYT by Thomas Geoghegan, in case anyone reading this is unaware of how things actually happened in the real world.
Schmitt's my favorite writer on politics but yeah, no way am I wasting my time on York's antics. Pair up him with his equivalent on the left. Who's that liberal guy everybody hates? I can't think of his name.
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2010, 08:39 PM
timba timba is offline
 
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Default ugh

This is like a college professor talking to a 12-year old.

Voters are clearly unhappy with the democratic party because it has sold out to corporations and is:

1) not providing real health care reform
2) not stopping wall street corruption
3) not punishing corporations for causing the meltdown
4) not punishing bush for violating the constitution and lying his ass off
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2010, 10:39 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I congratulate liberals in their success at refining the conventional wisdom to a point where a conservative saying an indelicate, race-ignorant (or even a valid point that is spun as racism) remark must be hounded from his position or denied certain rights but a democrat doing the same thing is issued a pass over the ludicrous reasoning that they have done a better job buying votes or of making said race wards of the state.
Because of course using the word "negro" in private is just as damning as publicly expressing sympathy for Strom Thurmond's segregationist 3rd party presidential run. Oh, and never mind how the R next to Lott's name tells you about all you need to know about the idiotic "today's Democratic party hasn't changed at all since it included Dixiecrats, and no, I don't know why would you ever suggest that they became Republicans" talking point.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2010, 10:41 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by timba View Post
This is like a college professor talking to a 12-year old.

Voters are clearly unhappy with the democratic party because it has sold out to corporations and is:

1) not providing real health care reform
2) not stopping wall street corruption
3) not punishing corporations for causing the meltdown
4) not punishing bush for violating the constitution and lying his ass off
Consistency requires me to get on your ass about this. You are unhappy with the Dem's for these reasons. We really don't know why "the american people" are souring on the Democratic Party, but the political science on the subject suggests that 10% inflation is the beginning, end, and most of the midddle of the story.
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  #16  
Old 01-11-2010, 10:58 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
... 10% inflation ...
Unemployment, I think you mean.
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  #17  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:05 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Because of course using the word "negro" in private is just as damning as publicly expressing sympathy for Strom Thurmond's segregationist 3rd party presidential run. Oh, and never mind how the R next to Lott's name tells you about all you need to know about the idiotic "today's Democratic party hasn't changed at all since it included Dixiecrats, and no, I don't know why would you ever suggest that they became Republicans" talking point.
It's hilarious how the Republicans are using this opportunity to remind us all of what Trent Lott said when he expressed his wish that a White Supremacist regime had governed the nation from 1948 to present. They are so tone deaf and blind to their own virulent racism.

A correspondent of Josh Marshall's put it well:

"Whenever one of their side is brought down by corruption or racism, they have to then spend the next three decades looking for superficially similar circumstances that might allow them to take their revenge."
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:12 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Thanks, Republicans!

Ultimately, the Republicans are helping the Democrats with their fake outrage. When Sen. John Cornyn says that Reid's praise of Obama was actually worse than Trent Lott's wish for a white supremacist government, jaws drop open all over America, and mental notes are made in millions of heads: "never vote Republican!"

Here are two of the most influential and powerful voices of the Republican Party saying there was nothing wrong with Trent Lott's endorsement of white supremacy:

Bill O'Reilly and Brit Hume on Sen. Harry Reid's Racial Remark
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  #19  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: ugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Unemployment, I think you mean.
Yes, yes, my brain-fingers connection must have shorted when I wrote that sentence. Or maybe I just became a WaPo Op-Ed writer for a second or two.
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2010, 09:12 AM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

BJ's go to comment about people on the right is that they...wait for it...represent the viewpoints of the right! How disturbing! This isn't the first time you've said this, in fact you say it constantly, that when right of center people come on and they aren't total squishes or totally conciliatory to their counterparts then they're "flag waving" etc. Pretty sure you aren't the intended audience for Byron York anyways; no matter how he framed his arguments, "talking points from Fox" or not, was there really any chance you were going to be swayed by them?

How do you think people on the right feel about someone than Michelle Goldberg? Yet, when she's on, if I wanted to criticize her, I'd like to try and say something more substantive than "oh my god she's totally like, only using huffpo talking points and representing the left!" Because first of all, just because things can be considered "talking points" doesn't mean that they aren't truly what a person believes, or good, well reasoned points. Anyways, the predictable, reflexive attacks are getting a bit stale.
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:39 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
BJ's go to comment about people on the right is that they...wait for it...represent the viewpoints of the right! How disturbing! This isn't the first time you've said this, in fact you say it constantly, that when right of center people come on and they aren't total squishes or totally conciliatory to their counterparts then they're "flag waving" etc.
I can see how someone like you would say that, but in fact, you're wrong.

Quote:
Pretty sure you aren't the intended audience for Byron York anyways; ...
You should see that as a problem, I should think. Sure, he makes you feel good by saying things you already believe, but that's not doing anything to get people who aren't like you to listen to, as you call them, "the viewpoints of the right."

Quote:
... no matter how he framed his arguments, "talking points from Fox" or not, was there really any chance you were going to be swayed by them?
Sure, why not? I've been swayed by numerous people with whom I did not agree, all my life. On this site alone, I can think of quite a few. Of course, you would doubtless call all of these people "total squishes."

Quote:
How do you think people on the right feel about someone than Michelle Goldberg?
I don't think; I know. The instantaneous howling from the wingnuts on this site is comical. I am now convinced that they in fact look forward to her appearances, just to have something else to stoke the perpetual search for OUTRAGE!!!1!

Quote:
Yet, when she's on, if I wanted to criticize her, I'd like to try and say something more substantive than "oh my god she's totally like, only using huffpo talking points and representing the left!"
Bully for you. When you get around to doing this, I mean.

Quote:
Because first of all, just because things can be considered "talking points" doesn't mean that they aren't truly what a person believes, or good, well reasoned points.
Didn't say they were. I said (1) that there is no point in Bh.tv airing the same tripe I can get on Fox 24/7, and (2) that I don't even think York is an honest representative of a considered conservative point of view.

Quote:
Anyways, the predictable, reflexive attacks are getting a bit stale.
You mean the ones directed at Michelle Goldberg, I presume. Yes, I agree.
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  #22  
Old 01-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Why did JFK get blamed for the Bay of Pigs when it was organized and planned under Eisenhower and, as I understand it, Kennedy didn't even know about it until after he was elected? How come nobody ever blames Eisenhower?
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2010, 06:27 PM
david7134 david7134 is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

Markos,
The reason Kennedy is vilified for the Bay of Pigs is that the idea was fundamentally good but he allowed a large group of patroits to land in Cuba and then did not supprt them. They thus died. He is a coward.
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:47 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

It is pretty hard to classify JFK as a coward as there was an adventure, on the Pacific front, in WWII that pretty much debunks that. President Eisenhower authorized the training President Kennedy authorized the invasion and then botched it. You would think that the classified data, surrounding that decision, would have been release by now but I don't believe it has. There is a pretty good synopses of why the invasion failed, albeit with a Kennedy slant, on the WEB site for his Library.
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  #25  
Old 01-13-2010, 12:25 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Bad Pizza (Mark Schmitt & Byron York)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
What a mess.
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