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  #1  
Old 07-11-2010, 02:01 PM
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Default Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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  #2  
Old 07-11-2010, 02:07 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

The Palin obsession has got to stop.
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  #3  
Old 07-11-2010, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
The Palin obsession has got to stop.
Yes. Please forward to all the involved.
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  #4  
Old 07-11-2010, 03:16 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
The Palin obsession has got to stop.
Awww ... can't we even talk about her new book project for kids?

Because I think Betty Cracker might have gotten an advance copy.
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  #5  
Old 07-11-2010, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
The Palin obsession has got to stop.
But it's brilliant from a partisan standpoint, the more attention she gets, the greater her likelyhood of going all rouge, and running against Obama, splintering off at least 20% of the GOP constituency. This "divide and conquer" strategy was instrumental in Bush Jr. taking the Presidency in 1999.
Advice for the right:
Run away, or find a way to shut her down.
Advice for the left:
Obsession is what made the right so freekin scary, and powerful. But keep it catty, and subtle, so your candidates can easily distance themselves.
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  #6  
Old 07-11-2010, 05:35 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

I really don't care about Palin, but more Anthea please yes.
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.
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  #8  
Old 07-11-2010, 09:31 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.
... With no apparent cure in sight.
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  #9  
Old 07-11-2010, 09:33 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
This is freaky.

Sarah and Anthea discussed the influence of religion on politics. Even if a fraction of what they described is true, religion in this country has turned into madness.
That has been happening for a long time. Pentecostals and crazy evangelicals have been getting stronger here for a long time. That should alarm every rational person in this country.
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:12 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
That has been happening for a long time. Pentecostals and crazy evangelicals have been getting stronger here for a long time. That should alarm every rational person in this country.
What exactly constitutes a 'crazy' evangelical and why should they and pentacostalists alarm rational people?

I agree with Nikkibong about Palin.

And I find Jeremiah Wright's brand of religion, along with its tacit and even explicit acceptance among many Obama supporters, to be far more alarming than pentacostalists.
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  #11  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:15 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
And I find Jeremiah Wright's brand of religion, along with its tacit and even explicit acceptance among many Obama supporters, to be far more alarming than pentacostalists.
Tacit and even explicit acceptance? Can we name some names before casting blanket aspersions?
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  #12  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:24 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Tacit and even explicit acceptance? Can we name some names before casting blanket aspersions?
Well, you can look at David Wright's appearance on Bill Moyers' show for the most explicit defense of Wright.

But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them. The very fact that liberals supported Barack Obama in spite of his longtime membership in Wright's hate church, and continued lies about what he knew and did not know of Wright's ideology. That is a tacit vote of legitimacy. I would never support a candidate who converted to Christianity under the guidance of an anti-semitic racist conspiracy nut.
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  #13  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:28 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them.
This is in the top 10 for all-time most comically lacking in awareness comments ever posted on this site. Or, perhaps, most tribalist.

Don't even try to deny it, don't even try to get me to explain further. Because if you do, you will have demonstrated yourself to be either insane or lying.
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  #14  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:37 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
This is in the top 10 for all-time most comically lacking in awareness comments ever posted on this site. Or, perhaps, most tribalist.

Don't even try to deny it, don't even try to get me to explain further. Because if you do, you will have demonstrated yourself to be either insane or lying.
An argument without substance...
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  #15  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:41 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
An argument without substance...
No, cog.mad. Forget it. I'm all too familiar with your habit of showing up on this site, looking to argue about the dumbest things imaginable. I have less than no interest in indulging you in your illness.

I see you quoted but did not read last line of my previous comment. Do that now.
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  #16  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:43 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
No, cog.mad. Forget it. I'm all too familiar with your habit of showing up on this site, looking to argue about the dumbest things imaginable. I have less than no interest in indulging you in your illness.

I see you quoted but did not read last line of my previous comment. Do that now.
I think I'd prefer to stick to our other strand of dialogue...
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  #17  
Old 07-13-2010, 12:27 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

I'm sure if you comb the archives of Dr. King or some other prominent social activist preacher's speeches you will find many "inflammatory" remarks. Wright's criticism of Jews or Israel doesn't make him anti-semitic or racist, though in America that seems to be the default intepretation.
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  #18  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:41 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Well, you can look at David Wright's appearance on Bill Moyers' show for the most explicit defense of Wright.

But you only have to consider that if a Republican was a long-time member of a church with such radical, racist views, that person would never get close to the nomination. And if they did, the mainstream media would relentlessly savage them. The very fact that liberals supported Barack Obama in spite of his longtime membership in Wright's hate church, and continued lies about what he knew and did not know of Wright's ideology. That is a tacit vote of legitimacy. I would never support a candidate who converted to Christianity under the guidance of an anti-semitic racist conspiracy nut.
I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them. Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do. And, any white guy who complains that black people who feel persecuted in this country are "racists" is an asshole. Pardon me, but it's true.

"Crazy Pentecostal" is redundant. I'm tempted to say "Crazy fundamentalist" is, too - but I've met and can therefore view some fundamentalists as compartmentalizers who segregate the rational and religious parts of their psyches sufficiently not to be danger to themselves and others. But, as a general rule, anybody who believes the end-times are nigh is batshit. Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.
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  #19  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:44 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them. Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do. And, any white guy who complains that black people who feel persecuted in this country are "racists" is an asshole. Pardon me, but it's true.
Did you see what Roy Edroso said last week about people like cog. mad.?

Quote:
This "the real racists" bit never fails to remind me of Wile E. Coyote, hurtling into the canyon with a detached rock ledge in pursuit.
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  #20  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:49 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)



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  #21  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post


Breaking: New post from Roy, perfectly tuned for this thread.

Quote:
Sigh. Why don't minorities appreciate how hard conservatives are working for them?
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  #22  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:38 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Breaking: New post from Roy, perfectly tuned for this thread.
yeah they should be in the welfare line saying "please sir I'd like more" and "thank you, masta" to their liberal benefactors.

In the next Congress, there will be more black Republicans representing non majority/plurality black districts than black democrats doing the same. So let's not kid ourselves about which party embraces identity politics.
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  #23  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:49 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I don't see Wright's views expressed in Obama's politics, so I don't give a crap about them.
So it is acceptable to belong to a hate church, convert under the guidance of a hate preacher, etc. so long as it does not show up in your politics? Don't pretend that this is the standard which you hold Republicans to.


Quote:
Also - Black Liberation Theology is a response to racism - calling it racism is a jerk-off white-guy thing to do.
So apparently only white people can be racists. Please don't resort to that ludicrous argument made by a few rather ignominious pseudo scholars that racism is a function of power and thus blacks can not be racist.

Racism is racism. It does not matter the color of the racist, what matters is the ideology. And Wright's brand of BLT is very clearly racist.\

But you seem to be confirming my point about the defense of Wright's odious beliefs.

Quote:
"Crazy Pentecostal" is redundant. I'm tempted to say "Crazy fundamentalist" is, too - but I've met and can therefore view some fundamentalists as compartmentalizers who segregate the rational and religious parts of their psyches sufficiently not to be danger to themselves and others. But, as a general rule, anybody who believes the end-times are nigh is batshit. Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.
Ok, so the argument is actually that people with end-of-times beliefs are nutty. I won't reject that one. But how many evangelicals and pentacostals are actually 'end-of-times' people? The only systematic end-of-times group that I know of is the Jehovah's Witnesses.

As for the second point, I see nothing nutty about having a personal relationship with the metaphysical.
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:50 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
...


So apparently only white people can be racists. Please don't resort to that ludicrous argument made by a few rather ignominious pseudo scholars that racism is a function of power and thus blacks can not be racist.

Racism is racism. It does not matter the color of the racist, what matters is the ideology. And Wright's brand of BLT is very clearly racist.
...
At least we've established something concrete, here.
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  #25  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:53 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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So it is acceptable to belong to a hate church, convert under the guidance of a hate preacher, etc. so long as it does not show up in your politics? Don't pretend that this is the standard which you hold Republicans to.
I dispute that Wright is an anti-Semite, a "hate preacher" or whatever. But the key difference is that Republican political platforms ARE infused with religious beliefs: right to life, religious homophobia, etc. On the left, many churches, like the Catholic church, are anti-abortion and anti gay, but it doesn't infect the political agenda.
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  #26  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:57 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I dispute that Wright is an anti-Semite, a "hate preacher" or whatever. But the key difference is that Republican political platforms ARE infused with religious beliefs: right to life, religious homophobia, etc. On the left, many churches, like the Catholic church, are anti-abortion and anti gay, but it doesn't infect the political agenda.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-lo...,7603283.story

You can look at his various other inflammatory statements concerning Jews, too. Statements that "white Jews" are racists, that Israel is committing "genocide," his publishing of Hamas letters in his magazine, his relationship with Louis Farakhan, etc.

As for your second argument, I think that the left has a great deal of religious influence too--progressive taxation, the call for large social programs, etc. have long had religious overtones to them.

I won't deny that religiosity influences many Republicans' positions on abortion and marriage, but let's not pretend that religion doesn't influence both sides.
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  #27  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:09 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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You can look at his various other inflammatory statements concerning Jews, too. Statements that "white Jews" are racists, that Israel is committing "genocide," his publishing of Hamas letters in his magazine, his relationship with Louis Farakhan, etc.
Wright does have a bit of a rap sheet on inflammatory statements and relationships (eg. Farrakhan). I think it's hyberbolic to call him an anti-Semite and to accuse him of "hate preaching," but since Obama has cut him off, there's no need to debate that.

Quote:
think that the left has a great deal of religious influence too--progressive taxation, the call for large social programs, etc. have long had religious overtones to them.
You can put religious "overtones" on any moral issue, but the Republican anti-gay and anti-abortion positions are quite difficult to argue secularly. They are essentially Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs transposed to politics in an unadulterated (no pun intended) manner.
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  #28  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:14 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Wright does have a bit of a rap sheet on inflammatory statements and relationships (eg. Farrakhan). I think it's hyberbolic to call him an anti-Semite and to accuse him of "hate preaching," but since Obama has cut him off, there's no need to debate that.
I guess that gets down to how much a person has to do before they earn the label. Are we really not going to conclude that Mel Gibson may be a bit of a racist and anti-semite, on the basis of two events?


Quote:
You can put religious "overtones" on any moral issue, but the Republican anti-gay and anti-abortion positions are quite difficult to argue secularly. They are essentially Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs transposed to politics in an unadulterated (no pun intended) manner.
I don't think abortion is difficult to argue secularly. Marriage is often argued with religious framing but again, I don't think it's difficult to argue it non-religiously. The fact that many people make religious-infused arguments doesn't preclude the presence of valid arguments based not on religion. In fact, I'd equate them in this way with arguments for progressive taxation and large social programs.
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  #29  
Old 07-18-2010, 09:23 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Are we really not going to conclude that Mel Gibson may be a bit of a racist and anti-semite, on the basis of two events?
It has been a bit more than "two events."

To see this, and other reasons, see Frank Rich's latest column, "The Good News About Mel Gibson." Starts off funny, with Rich putting his tongue in his cheek and his old reviewer's cap on his head, but then he gets a bit more serious and makes an interesting argument about the parallels of the decline and fall of Mel and societal progress in the United States over the same time.

I guess anti-parallels might be a better word. Anyway, a good read.
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  #30  
Old 07-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Anybody who believes they have a personal relationship with God is suspect.
That would include, of course, Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and all the other devout Christians in the current administration.
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  #31  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:22 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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That would include, of course, Barack and Michelle Obama, as well as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton and all the other devout Christians in the current administration.
You may think the Obamas are devout Christians, but there isn't a wingnut or fundie online that would even come close to agreeing with you. [Added: for example.] Go look around for some yelling about how long it's been since Obama went to church, just to take one easy-to-search-on term. And I'm fairly sure my same point about "devout" being a stupid exaggeration applies to Clinton and Biden as well, although the wingnuts don't seem to be as exercised about these two as they are about the Head Negro In Charge.

Stop looking to throw something at Obama at every opportunity, and save your critiques for the areas where there is actually something worth harping on, would be my suggestion.
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  #32  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:26 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
You may think the Obamas are devout Christians, but there isn't a wingnut or fundie online that would even come close to agreeing with you. Go look around for some yelling about how long it's been since Obama went to church, just to take one easy-to-search-on term.
The fact that some evangelicals on the right question Obama's religiosity has no bearing on the fact that Obama by his own profession of faith would fit your definition of nutty.

(I actually doubt the sincerity of Obama's conversion and his religiosity--I think he's an Agnostic who is savvy enough to have faked religiosity to get ahead)
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  #33  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:33 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post

(I actually doubt the sincerity of Obama's conversion and his religiosity--I think he's an Agnostic who is savvy enough to have faked religiosity to get ahead)
how do you know that? faith?
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  #34  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:37 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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how do you know that? faith?
I wouldn't claim to know it. I suspect it. I suspect it because if I were to not suspect it, I would have to believe that Obama found Wright's poisonous rhetoric to be enlightening, which is a frightening thought about the president. I hold it because it's just far too convenient that he joined an identity movement church that could ingratiate himself with a community that otherwise would've looked with suspicion at a light-skinned, Ivy league educated guy from Hawaii. And yes, because Obama hasn't chosen a church, and hasn't demonstrated anything suggesting genuine religiosity and not transparent political showmanship.

And because Obama's prone to being a transparent phony. See his stupid claim to have considered military service out of high school. If you believe that then there's some oceanfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.
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  #35  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:41 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
I wouldn't claim to know it. I suspect it. I suspect it because if I were to not suspect it, I would have to believe that Obama found Wright's poisonous rhetoric to be enlightening, which is a frightening thought about the president. I hold it because it's just far too convenient that he joined an identity movement church that could ingratiate himself with a community that otherwise would've looked with suspicion at a light-skinned, Ivy league educated guy from Hawaii. And yes, because Obama hasn't chosen a church, and hasn't demonstrated anything suggesting genuine religiosity and not transparent political showmanship.

And because Obama's prone to being a transparent phony. See his stupid claim to have considered military service out of high school. If you believe that then there's some oceanfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.
Mind reading, apparently. And, to be sure - you reject Obama for the religious views you don't believe he has. Got it.
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  #36  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:42 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Mind reading, apparently. And, to be sure - you reject Obama for the religious views you don't believe he has. Got it.
No I reject Obama for being an inept fraud and a man willing to cavort with despicable people with harmful, despicable ideas to get ahead.
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  #37  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:43 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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No I reject Obama for being an inept fraud and a man willing to cavort with despicable people with harmful, despicable ideas to get ahead.
You change your claims from post to another.
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  #38  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:46 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
You change your claims from post to another.
Not really. I reject Obama for his allegiances. I did not say that I believed that Obama believes as Wright does.

But I do think Obama is questionable. His hairbrained statement that "no one on Earth is suffering as much as the Palestinians," his toasting of a radical Palestinian activist and chummy talk time with the virulently antisemitic Edward Said, etc. give him a bit of a stink.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:54 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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the virulently antisemitic Edward Said...
ROFL. And the virulently anti-Semitic Dana Milbank.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:55 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Sarah Palin and Pentecostalism (Sarah Posner & Anthea Butler)

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Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
Not really. I reject Obama for his allegiances. I did not say that I believed that Obama believes as Wright does.

But I do think Obama is questionable. His hairbrained statement that "no one on Earth is suffering as much as the Palestinians," his toasting of a radical Palestinian activist and chummy talk time with the virulently antisemitic Edward Said, etc. give him a bit of a stink.
If you don't believe Obama believes what Wright believes, why did you make the claim that Wright matters in any substantive way? You're still making inconsistent claims.
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