Commenter Court: The End(?) (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)

[Bloggingheads]

[TwinSwords]

Bob's editorial skills FTW.

[sugarkang]

The net, in general, seems to be moving to an open ID, Disqus, Facebook, Twitter type login and comment system. I mentioned this the last time around, but I wonder what the official Bloggingheads opinion would be?

It isn't perfect, but it would reduce the trolling, it would invite a good deal more commenters because people are loathe to sign up for yet another single serving site and is, in general, where the internets are headed anyway.

So, if this has been considered and dismissed, I'd like to know why. And if it hasn't been considered, how about it?

Oh, and I think the last commenter court was effective because Bob threatened to turn off the Bloggingheads machine if we weren't more civil. It's almost as if we were forced into a non-zero sum situation. Though, I don't see how Bob could come up with a solution like that.

[operative]

Bob, the appropriate comparison would be to a sports referee, not a teacher. And if a basketball referee ignores little cheapshots given throughout an entire matchup and then punishes a player for a somewhat stronger shot, that referee isn't very good. If it is a playoff series and Ron Artest has been taking cheapshots at Kevin Durant for 5 games, of course that fact is going to matter if Kevin Durant finally retaliates in game 6. Each game does not exist in and of itself.

[miceelf]

Ugh.

Traveling, so can't view this for a few days. Curious to see how it all ends.

[operative]

Originally Posted by sugarkang

The net, in general, seems to be moving to an open ID, Disqus, Facebook, Twitter type login and comment system. I mentioned this the last time around, but I wonder what the official Bloggingheads opinion would be?

It isn't perfect, but it would reduce the trolling, it would invite a good deal more commenters because people are loathe to sign up for yet another single serving site and is, in general, where the internets are headed anyway.

So, if this has been considered and dismissed, I'd like to know why. And if it hasn't been considered, how about it?

Oh, and I think the last commenter court was effective because Bob threatened to turn off the Bloggingheads machine if we weren't more civil. It's almost as if we were forced into a non-zero sum situation. Though, I don't see how Bob could come up with a solution like that.

It would reduce trolling but it would also reduce participation--not everyone is in a position to post without personal or professional considerations. I'm inclined to be that it'd be a net negative marginal utility--the costs in terms of loss of participation would exceed the diminution in trolling. Of course I say that in part because I'd stop participating.

Also Bob, since I know you will read this, please bring Sal Khan on to discuss education reform. Not for some non-featured diavlog, I'm talking about a regular diavlog.

[operative]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Ugh.

Traveling, so can't view this for a few days. Curious to see how it all ends.

Bob reaches through the camera to assault Aryeh with an advanced copy of Pinker's latest book. Don't ask me why or how but it's pretty cool.

[graz]

Originally Posted by operative

Bob, the appropriate comparison would be to a sports referee, not a teacher. And if a basketball referee ignores little cheapshots given throughout an entire matchup and then punishes a player for a somewhat stronger shot, that referee isn't very good. If it is a playoff series and Ron Artest has been taking cheapshots at Kevin Durant for 5 games, of course that fact is going to matter if Kevin Durant finally retaliates in game 6. Each game does not exist in and of itself.

Although it's a vain effort at this point, that's a perfect example of "Working the Refs". Or a thinly veiled attempt to rehabilitate your reputation.
Too bad for you that the record will always reflect you being on the negative example list. It's not easy for us either

[operative]

Originally Posted by graz

Although it's a vain effort at this point, that's a perfect example of "Working the Refs". Or a thinly veiled attempt to rehabilitate your reputation.
Too bad for you that the record will always reflect you being on the negative example list. It's not easy for us either

Ok Ron Artest.

[graz]

Originally Posted by operative

... I'm inclined to be that it'd be a net negative marginal utility--the costs in terms of loss of participation would exceed the diminution in trolling. Of course I say that in part because I'd stop participating.

There is a god.

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Ugh.

Traveling, so can't view this for a few days. Curious to see how it all ends.

With a special needs kitten.

Cute kitten, though. Manipulation noted, but not objected to. :-)

[sugarkang]

Originally Posted by operative

It would reduce trolling but it would also reduce participation--not everyone is in a position to post without personal or professional considerations. I'm inclined to be that it'd be a net negative marginal utility--the costs in terms of loss of participation would exceed the diminution in trolling. Of course I say that in part because I'd stop participating.

Nah, you'd just start over. The only one to out you, would be you. Of course, it'd be best to lie low for a while and I'd also stop participating. So, from the selfish perspective of us as commenters, I agree. From Bob's perspective, I'd think we're fungible and he wouldn't lose all of us, either. I know this method has worked for a lot of the bigger sites. But anyway, I don't even own a Facebook account.

[sugarkang]

Originally Posted by graz

There is a god.

Wait, why are you trolling operative? I mean, aside from the fact that Bob and Aryeh are no longer policing us?

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by operative

Ok Ron Artest.

Since we're throwing around names of basketball players, I must note that in the last playoffs, not jus the series with Dallas, but the whole run as far as I could tell: Lebron got VERY generous treatment from the refs in terms of chintzy fouls called on his defenders, charges not called, or called against the defenders, etc. and he STILL complained whenever a call didn't go his way.

My one beef with basketball as a sport is that it seems like at least a partial function of winning is having enough players on your team who are respected by the refs, who will get the benefit of the doubt on the foul calls. Whatever talent disparity benefited Miami, this was going on a lot more.

[treezonebee]

Here is my suggestion list for people you (Bob) should interview

Wendell Berry – Life, Moderation, Writing
Pascal Boyer – Religion
David Buss – Evolutionary Psychology
Adam Carolla – Podcast Innovation, Sex Roles
Bill Clinton – Nonzero - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnLosZVG54k
Leda Cosmides – The History and Future of Evolutionary Psychology
Daniel J. Fairbanks – Discuss Darwin while Fairbanks sculpts a bust of Darwin
Stanley Finger – History of Neuroscience
Edward Fredkin - Follow up on 3 Scientist and their Gods
Nicholas W. Gillham – Sir Francis Galton
Marc Hauser – Academic Publication Pressure
Shelly Kagan – Morality and Death
James J. McKenna – Co-Sleeping & Slate Article
Harold L Miller, Jr. – Mormonism, Psychology, Education
Steven Pinker – The Writing Process
Richard G. Rosner – On Being Smart
Charlie Rose – On Conducting Interviews
Robert Sapolsky – Stress and Primates
Elizabeth Spelke – Children, Lawrence Summers
Eric Turkheimer – 3 laws of Behavioral Genetics
Michael F. Whiting – Natural Selection and Mormonism
E.O. Wilson – Early days of Sociobiology, Follow up on 3 Scientists and their Gods
Your Family or Frasier – On growing up Wright

[bevdude2007]

Bring on Freddie deBoer. That is all.

[rfrobison]

...and not just because I had an award named after me. I always found them kind of entertaining, and the fact that the people who run the site comment on the commenters seems testimony to the high regard in which they hold us.

I'm still mystified by the negative reaction of people to these "courts" in general. Haven't you guys heard: There's no such thing as bad publicity! I wonder if it isn't a problem of taking these things (and oneself) a tad too seriously.

On this last point, I'll plead guilty to taking myself way-over-the-top too seriously on numerous occasions, just in case anybody thinks I'm pointing fingers.

I do hope Mr. Wright and Mr. Cohen-Wade will continue to interact with the peanut gallery in some form. It's kinda like that movie "Almost Famous."

Was that a movie? I never saw it.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by rfrobison

I do hope Mr. Wright and Mr. Cohen-Wade will continue to interact with the peanut gallery in some form. It's kinda like that movie "Almost Famous."

I do, too. In particular, I'd like it if Bob went back to doing what he used to: highlighting the best comments of the previous week or two. There's a lot of deep wisdom in the comments section, and it was always neat when Bob (and Mickey) highlighted some of it. As I said after the last commenter court:

Remember when Bob and Mickey used to do a mailbag thing at the end of diavlogs -- before there was a forum? And then, after they set up the first forum, they used to highlight particularly interesting or insightful comments. People used to take a lot of pride in being named and having their comments highlighted.

What Bob really needs is a replacement for Mickey, someone he can appear with every week or two. Then they could take a few minutes at the end of each diavlog to highlight and discuss the best comments.

Originally Posted by rfrobison

Was that a movie? I never saw it.

Yes! And one about a member of your profession, no less!

[Wonderment]

.....to Bob for the excellent t-shirt in honor of the Revolución Mexicana.

Don't let Mickey catch you wearing that, Bob. He's liable to shoot you on sight (or deport you).

And kudos to Aryeh for foster-parenting Molly.

You did a great job on Commenter Court (RIP), Aryeh. I desperately aspire to a Bheads hoodie, but I'll always cherish my intangibly awesome Aryeh awards.

[uncle ebeneezer]

Bob, another possibility for the better tone of the comments forum is that many of us may have simply decided to use the "ignore" function more liberally. While there might be less feuding, a number of the more thoughtful commenters are simply not sharing their thoughts as much anymore. Not sure if that should be considered a victory, or even a net positive for the BH forum. Hesitance to pushback on BS has also had the result of many threads that are essentially talking points regurgitated from one ideological perspective with a whole lot of back-patting from like-minded individuals. Again, hardly a cause for celebration.

[graz]

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer

Bob, another possibility for the better tone of the comments forum is that many of us may have simply decided to use the "ignore" function more liberally. While there might be less feuding, a number of the more thoughtful commenters are simply not sharing their thoughts as much anymore. Not sure if that should be considered a victory, or even a net positive for the BH forum. Hesitance to pushback on BS has also had the result of many threads that are essentially talking points regurgitated from one ideological perspective with a whole lot of back-patting from like-minded individuals. Again, hardly a cause for celebration.

Hear, hear. There is no cause for back patting from the overlords. Just as before, it's unlikely that they'll read closely enough to recognize your point. They're ready to award themselves a trophy and move on. No great loss.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer

Bob, another possibility for the better tone of the comments forum is that many of us may have simply decided to use the "ignore" function more liberally. While there might be less feuding, a number of the more thoughtful commenters are simply not sharing their thoughts as much anymore. Not sure if that should be considered a victory, or even a net positive for the BH forum. Hesitance to pushback on BS has also had the result of many threads that are essentially talking points regurgitated from one ideological perspective with a whole lot of back-patting from like-minded individuals. Again, hardly a cause for celebration.

Dead on! I even left in fury and returned with a new moniker. I've adopted a corollary of my mother's "negativity" rule for dealing with trolls: if I can't make a positive contribution, I move to another thread.

On links, I have no need for spanning social media sites. The easier it is to login and make my point, the happier I'll be.

Finally, I love this site - even more than my own blog, which I ended. But, instead of monitoring commenters, I would prefer the Aryeh's of the bh.tv staff devise an objective means to evaluate the performance of the various 'heads and give both 'heads and viewers/listeners a more public way to recommend topics and matchups that isn't relegated to a lesser forum. Commenters put the time and effort in to help this site, and we've taken the growing pains and - to be honest - the insult of this nanny court with magnanimity. We deserve a reward for enduring this failed experiment.

[look]

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer

Bob, another possibility for the better tone of the comments forum is that many of us may have simply decided to use the "ignore" function more liberally. While there might be less feuding, a number of the more thoughtful commenters are simply not sharing their thoughts as much anymore. Not sure if that should be considered a victory, or even a net positive for the BH forum. Hesitance to pushback on BS has also had the result of many threads that are essentially talking points regurgitated from one ideological perspective with a whole lot of back-patting from like-minded individuals. Again, hardly a cause for celebration.

There it is, again.

[graz]

Originally Posted by look

There it is, again.

And you've provided so much inspiration. Thanks.

[look]

Originally Posted by graz

And you've provided so much inspiration. Thanks.

Oh. Hi, graz.

[chiwhisoxx]

Originally Posted by rfrobison

...and not just because I had an award named after me. I always found them kind of entertaining, and the fact that the people who run the site comment on the commenters seems testimony to the high regard in which they hold us.

I'm still mystified by the negative reaction of people to these "courts" in general. Haven't you guys heard: There's no such thing as bad publicity! I wonder if it isn't a problem of taking these things (and oneself) a tad too seriously.

On this last point, I'll plead guilty to taking myself way-over-the-top too seriously on numerous occasions, just in case anybody thinks I'm pointing fingers.

I do hope Mr. Wright and Mr. Cohen-Wade will continue to interact with the peanut gallery in some form. It's kinda like that movie "Almost Famous."

Was that a movie? I never saw it.

agreed. while I've complained about how these things go in the past, I still enjoyed them and think interaction with the community is important. by the way, you really ought to see almost famous. quite a good movie.

[chiwhisoxx]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

I do, too. In particular, I'd like it if Bob went back to doing what he used to: highlighting the best comments of the previous week or two. There's a lot of deep wisdom in the comments section, and it was always neat when Bob (and Mickey) highlighted some of it. As I said after the last commenter court:

What Bob really needs is a replacement for Mickey, someone he can appear with every week or two. Then they could take a few minutes at the end of each diavlog to highlight and discuss the best comments.



Yes! And one about a member of your profession, no less!

agreed, this would definitely be nice.

[chiwhisoxx]

Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer

Bob, another possibility for the better tone of the comments forum is that many of us may have simply decided to use the "ignore" function more liberally. While there might be less feuding, a number of the more thoughtful commenters are simply not sharing their thoughts as much anymore. Not sure if that should be considered a victory, or even a net positive for the BH forum. Hesitance to pushback on BS has also had the result of many threads that are essentially talking points regurgitated from one ideological perspective with a whole lot of back-patting from like-minded individuals. Again, hardly a cause for celebration.

I'd be sort of curious which specific examples you have in mind here, although I understand why you might be reluctant to say so. which insightful commenters do you think are posting less now specifically because of the tone of the forums? do you think the regurgitation of ideological talking points is only coming from one "side", so to speak? And do you think the back-patting is one sided? I agree with some of the general things you laid out, but I suspect we may disagree about specifics.

[rcocean]

I'd love to see him interview the following (assuming he could keep his cool):

-Charles Murray
-John McWhorter on evolution
-Ann Coulter
-Roger Kimball
-BJ Keefe (quite a shrinking violet I'm told)
-Trooper York of New York City
-R.S. McCain
-Someone who could explain what really happened to the Japanese nuclear power plants.
-Roger Ebert
-Tiger Woods (did he really take steroids?)
-James Q. Wilson
-Someone who explain why Christopher Hitchens is considered intelligent
-Tom Wolfe

[Don Zeko]

Originally Posted by graz

Hear, hear. There is no cause for back patting from the overlords. Just as before, it's unlikely that they'll read closely enough to recognize your point. They're ready to award themselves a trophy and move on. No great loss.

Yeah. In many of these threads it looks like Bob has found a desert and called it victory. If he considers the current forum an improvement upon what it was before Commenter Court, that's his right, but I don't agree.

[look]

Originally Posted by Don Zeko

Yeah. In many of these threads it looks like Bob has found a desert and called it victory. If he considers the current forum an improvement upon what it was before Commenter Court, that's his right, but I don't agree.

I think you're talking about two different things. Before, when someone didn't agree with someone, it was the norm to resort to insults. Now that people are refraining from insults, because they don't think the person worth engaging, there is silence. Yes, it's an improvement. Except for graz.

[chiwhisoxx]

Originally Posted by rcocean

I'd love to see him interview the following (assuming he could keep his cool):

-Charles Murray
-John McWhorter on evolution
-Ann Coulter
-Roger Kimball
-BJ Keefe (quite a shrinking violet I'm told)
-Trooper York of New York City
-R.S. McCain
-Someone who could explain what really happened to the Japanese nuclear power plants.
-Roger Ebert
-Tiger Woods (did he really take steroids?)
-James Q. Wilson
-Someone who explain why Christopher Hitchens is considered intelligent
-Tom Wolfe

umm...

[Don Zeko]

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx

umm...

Makes getting Brendan on camera seem like a pretty insignificant task, doesn't it?

[graz]

Originally Posted by look

I think you're talking about two different things. Before, when someone didn't agree with someone, it was the norm to resort to insults. Now that people are refraining from insults, because they don't think the person worth engaging, there is silence. Yes, it's an improvement. Except for graz.

You lack the insight to presume to speak for Zeke.
You lack the self awareness to recognize how boring your commentary is.
You lack the instincts to know when you are playing a bad hand.
Unfortunately, what you have in spades is determination.

[chiwhisoxx]

Originally Posted by Don Zeko

Makes getting Brendan on camera seem like a pretty insignificant task, doesn't it?

I mean, the fame is one thing. But his inability to, you know, speak, seems like it might be a hurdle for the traditional bloggingheads format.

[look]

Originally Posted by graz

You lack the insight to presume to speak for Zeke.
You lack the self awareness to recognize how boring your commentary is.
You lack the instincts to know when you are playing a bad hand.
Unfortunately, what you have in spades is determination.

lol If only you could engage your brain long enough to have an actual discussion about something.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx

I'd be sort of curious which specific examples you have in mind here, although I understand why you might be reluctant to say so. which insightful commenters do you think are posting less now specifically because of the tone of the forums? do you think the regurgitation of ideological talking points is only coming from one "side", so to speak? And do you think the back-patting is one sided? I agree with some of the general things you laid out, but I suspect we may disagree about specifics.

He's just mad that conservatives aren't getting pummeled to death anymore and that BJKeefe has given up his stand-up routine of 'watch me throw shit at this conservatard'. We even have a new crop of people who stand up for themselves. How disappointing and certainly no improvement to the formerly elevated rhetoric around here.

And FYI, according to Mr. Uncle, the set of vocal conservatives isn't included in the set of insightful commenters, but you're kinda nice most of the time so you probably get to play once in a while.

[graz]

Originally Posted by look

lol If only you could engage your brain long enough to have an actual discussion about something.

If that's what you call what you do here, no thanks.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx

I mean, the fame is one thing. But his inability to, you know, speak, seems like it might be a hurdle for the traditional bloggingheads format.

I want to add Michael Crichton to that list.

[look]

Originally Posted by graz

If that's what you call what you do here, no thanks.

Aw, graz, you know you like me.