Senator Mickey Kaus???

[Stapler Malone]

http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/ci...us-for-senate/

[bjkeefe]

Does this mean we don't have to talk nicely about him anymore?

[Wonderment]

I have a new mission in life!

I'll do everything possible to ensure that Mickey Kaus does not receive one single vote from the 10 million or so Latinos who live in the state of California.

Ok, I'm done. That was easy.

P.S. I am also offering 1000 to 1 odds to any takers that Mickey Kaus does not win election to the US Senate in any election ever.

P.P.S. I am also investigating tips from highly placed background sources that Mickey has a "Love Child" with John Edwards.

[look]

Originally Posted by Wonderment

I have a new mission in life!

I'll do everything possible to ensure that Mickey Kaus does not receive one single vote from the 10 million or so Latinos who live in the state of California.

Ok, I'm done. That was easy.

P.S. I am also offering 1000 to 1 odds to any takers that Mickey Kaus does not win election to the US Senate in any election ever.

P.P.S. I am also investigating tips from highly placed background sources that Mickey has a "Love Child" with John Edwards.

I don't think you have a thing to worry about. He'll run with all the enthusiasm and energy of Fred Thompson. I don't think he'll be able to get that worked up about it.

[claymisher]

"Anti-Mexican Internet Troll Seeks Democratic Nomination for Senator from California."

Good luck with that!

[bjkeefe]

Related?

Also, O/T, but anyone who is reading this thread is certain to enjoy this brief interlude.

[Wonderment]

Related?

Related.

[Stapler Malone]

Shall we turn this into a Swiftboat Dingalink submission thread?

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Stapler Malone

Shall we turn this into a Swiftboat Dingalink submission thread?

Swiftgoat, more like.

[look]

Originally Posted by bjkeefe

Swiftgoat, more like.

Heh, nice catch.

[Jyminee]

The "Mickey Kaus blows goats" meme should officially be retired.

It was started to protest Mickey's wild, constant rumor-mongering about John Edwards having an affair with a woman named Rielle Hunter. Crazily enough, John Edwards did have an affair with a woman named Rielle Hunter, an affair that resulted in the birth of an illegitimate child, an affair that, had Edwards won the Democratic primary, would have resulted in John McCain being elected president and Sarah Palin being elected vice president. Mickey was the only prominent voice raising these concerns at the time.

Thus it is indisputable that any effort Mickey put into trying to discredit John Edwards was not only correct, but he was indeed doing God's work. Mickey should be mocked for many things, but not for having oral sex with goats.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

The "Mickey Kaus blows goats" meme should officially be retired.

It was started to protest Mickey's wild, constant rumor-mongering about John Edwards having an affair with a woman named Rielle Hunter. [...]

Even a Page-a-Day® Calendar missing 364 sheets is right once a year. (vide)

[Jyminee]

Weak sauce, bj. The point of the goat sex joke was that Mickey was wrong about Edwards. Well, he actually wasn't wrong--everyone who mocked him was wrong! Continuing to use the goat joke is like mocking someone for a rumor that isn't true. It'd be like conservatives going after Michelle Obama for saying "whitey."

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

Weak sauce ...

Pretty self-referential answer.

If you're going to try to deny that Mickey has a long history of floating rumors, or, more usually, passing them along and trying to keep them alive, virtually none of which turned out to have any basis in fact, then you simply don't know what you're talking about. Read some of the posts at the link I gave you in my previous response. And if that's not enough to convince you that I'm right about Mickey finally getting lucky, once, with his decade-long shtick, don't worry. I'm sure a few thousand other examples will be presented in the coming weeks.

[Jyminee]

Originally Posted by bjkeefe

...virtually none...

Nice euphemism. The number really is virtually zero...unless, of course, you count the rumor that John Edwards had a love child, which was the origin of the goat sex joke, and which strangely enough turned out to be true.

Mickey was right, the mockers were wrong, and he deserves kudos and not mockery for his whatever minor effect his anti-Edwards blogging had on the election for keeping that amoral egomaniac away from the presidency.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

... which was the origin of the goat sex joke, and which strangely enough turned out to be true.

As you wish.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

The "Mickey Kaus blows goats" meme should officially be retired.

It was started to protest Mickey's wild, constant rumor-mongering about John Edwards having an affair with a woman named Rielle Hunter. Crazily enough, John Edwards did have an affair with a woman named Rielle Hunter, an affair that resulted in the birth of an illegitimate child, an affair that, had Edwards won the Democratic primary, would have resulted in John McCain being elected president and Sarah Palin being elected vice president. Mickey was the only prominent voice raising these concerns at the time.

Thus it is indisputable that any effort Mickey put into trying to discredit John Edwards was not only correct, but he was indeed doing God's work. Mickey should be mocked for many things, but not for having oral sex with goats.

Wrong. The underlying truth of the matter is irrelevant to whether or not there's enough evidence to repeat a rumor. As long as the source was an investigation by an organization with a history of printing false and misleading stories for sensational effect, Mickey should have either found another source, done the legwork himself until he found something credible to write about, or kept his mouth shut.

[nikkibong]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

Wrong. The underlying truth of the matter is irrelevant to whether or not there's enough evidence to repeat a rumor. As long as the source was an investigation by an organization with a history of printing false and misleading stories for sensational effect, Mickey should have either found another source, done the legwork himself until he found something credible to write about, or kept his mouth shut.

Shorter Jeff:

Accurate, but false!

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by nikkibong

Shorter Jeff:

Accurate, but false!

I'd expect you to have a more sophisticated understanding of the principles involved, nikkibong. The mere existence of an allegation ought not be a sufficient standard of credibility. Anybody can allege anything at any time. Why should we have granted this particular rumor any special a priori advantage over every other such story?

[Jyminee]

I agree that, based on the publicly available evidence, there wasn't any reason to believe Mickey on Edwards (I didn't believe it at the time, either). But my point is that since he was proved correct, it doesn't make any sense to keep mocking him for being wrong, because, once again, he was not wrong, the mockers were wrong.

BTW, I remember that at some point after the scandal broke Mickey said that he received vague non-denials (or something) from people close to Edwards--in other words, he wasn't just wildly speculating, but he had some background info pointing towards the fact that Edwards was a sleaze.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

I agree that, based on the publicly available evidence, there wasn't any reason to believe Mickey on Edwards (I didn't believe it at the time, either). But my point is that since he was proved correct, it doesn't make any sense to keep mocking him for being wrong, because, once again, he was not wrong, the mockers were wrong.

BTW, I remember that at some point after the scandal broke Mickey said that he received vague non-denials (or something) from people close to Edwards--in other words, he wasn't just wildly speculating, but he had some background info pointing towards the fact that Edwards was a sleaze.

But the reason for mocking him isn't in regard to whether he was factually correct. It's because he exhibited no professional integrity. The salient issue has nothing to do with Edwards at all. Mickey was willing to run with a rumor regardless of whether there was any principled reason to do so. His unsubstantiated claims of vague support don't especially help his case.

[kezboard]

But my point is that since he was proved correct, it doesn't make any sense to keep mocking him for being wrong, because, once again, he was not wrong, the mockers were wrong.

I kind of want to agree with you here, but I think the fact that Edwards actually did turn out to have a love-child makes the goat-blowing joke somehow funnier, so I support its continued use.

[nikkibong]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

I'd expect you to have a more sophisticated understanding of the principles involved, nikkibong. The mere existence of an allegation ought not be a sufficient standard of credibility. Anybody can allege anything at any time. Why should we have granted this particular rumor any special a priori advantage over every other such story?

Right, but obviously this was not an example of a "mere allegation." It's not coincidence that Kaus' contention turned out to be true.

To answer your question: we should have granted this particular rumour special advantage because it was true.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by nikkibong

Right, but obviously this was not an example of a "mere allegation." It's not coincidence that Kaus' contention turned out to be true.

To answer your question: we should have granted this particular rumour special advantage because it was true.

And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

[Jyminee]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

It was fine to mock him when the rumor seemed outlandish. Once the rumor was proven true, to continue to mock him for it is as stupid as (hypothetical) freepers going after Michelle Obama for hating whitey.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

It was fine to mock him when the rumor seemed outlandish. Once the rumor was proven true, to continue to mock him for it is as stupid as (hypothetical) freepers going after Michelle Obama for hating whitey.

That's just not the case. I'm as glad as you are to have seen Edwards outed as a pathetic asshole. But there's no possible fact about Edwards that could make Mickey's complete disregard of ethical and professional standards alright. Dishing rumors in public without substantiation is wrong, even when it turns out (as it will sometimes, inevitably) that a particular rumor is true.

[PreppyMcPrepperson]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

That's just not the case. I'm as glad as you are to have seen Edwards outed as a pathetic asshole. But there's no possible fact about Edwards that could make Mickey's complete disregard of ethical and professional standards alright. Dishing rumors in public without substantiation is wrong, even when it turns out (as it will sometimes, inevitably) that a particular rumor is true.

Jeff, you're missing the point. Even if Mickey acted badly in ways that call for mockery of some kind, the particular term of mockery "goat" needs to be retired and replaced with a new term. Because while at the time he posted them, Mickey's comments re Edwards suffered from three flaws:
-lack of evidence
-impropriety
-suspicions of falsehood

BUT the term "goat" was a joke about the THIRD flaw. Go back at look at the comment threads on old KF posts. The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

Now it turns out it wasn't a lie. It may still have been bad form, but since the "goat" joke was ABOUT the lying part, it's just not the right joke here.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson

The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

No it wasn't. As it was most often told, it was phrased as a question; e.g., "Are the rumors about Mickey Kaus and certain barnyard animals TRUE??? It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate!!!"

It was all about Mickey harping on something for which he had no evidence and how he danced around making any direct accusations, while doing no reportorial or investigative work.

However, it's good to know the joke still makes his supporters so sensitive. We will therefore keep it alive with a vengeance.

[claymisher]

"It would be irresponsible not to speculate" is so much fun to say.

[uncle ebeneezer]

My interpretation of the many Goat threads (I mainly read them on Yglesias, Ezra Klein and other places away from KF) was that Mickey was operating under the logic that because the Edwards camp wasn't denying an accusation that Mickey had no evidence for, that that made it okay for him to continue to push those rumors because the lack of a denial constituted some evidence of proof of the original rumor. By extension of that logic, ANY ridiculous scenario would be fair game because lack of a denial only reinforces the plausibility of the initial charge. Use a little imagination, add a goat and voilah!! Mickey has shown a tendency to eschew good journalistic principles over the years, in order to push sensationalistic stories and headlines, so in his case I think it's fair to continue to mock him. Perhaps if he just admitted to being a conservative gossip columnist, people would be less interested in goofing on him. I'm not a journalist like you or Nikki, but I have always had a great deal of respect for the ones who try to do it right and responsibly. I only can imagine how hard it is to function and try to make a living in such a restricted way, given the easy chances at gaining fame, $ and notoriety by just being a little lazier and less careful or principled. The jokes are directly tied to the journalistic approach that Mickey chooses to take.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson

Jeff, you're missing the point. Even if Mickey acted badly in ways that call for mockery of some kind, the particular term of mockery "goat" needs to be retired and replaced with a new term. Because while at the time he posted them, Mickey's comments re Edwards suffered from three flaws:
-lack of evidence
-impropriety
-suspicions of falsehood

BUT the term "goat" was a joke about the THIRD flaw. Go back at look at the comment threads on old KF posts. The goat joke was ABOUT Mickey telling lies.

Now it turns out it wasn't a lie. It may still have been bad form, but since the "goat" joke was ABOUT the lying part, it's just not the right joke here.

I like this way of putting it somewhat better, but ultimately I still have the same problem with it. Asserting the truth of a proposition without regard for the facts is the moral equivalent of telling a lie. The happenstance of accidental accuracy doesn't help clean the slate, I think.

I view the "goat" joke entirely in terms of Mickey's willingness to assert something damaging to Edwards, regardless of evidence. I strongly feel that there's no new fact that can change the moral value of having made that assertion.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

And the standard for judging the truth of a rumor (on its face) is therefore the inherent truth of the claim, regardless of evidence or propriety. Got it.

Coming up next on the next Apollovlog: nikkibong and Jyminee discuss why the United States must embrace trial by duress.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by bjkeefe

Coming up next on the next Apollovlog: nikkibong and Jyminee discuss why the United States must embrace trial by duress.

And also, how great it is to be frisky.

[bjkeefe]

"A somewhat popular blogger" says near the end of "This is why you can’t have nice things:"

Lastly: Who is running for office is Mickey Kaus in California in an attempt to draw us into his vortex, I guess, but I simply refuse to read the KausFiles which is too misfiring-synapse-stream-of-consciousness for my tastes. Mickey has drawn the endorsement of overweight disheveled Jonah Goldberg which counts for, lessee…carry the three…oh yes, nothing. On the other hand, mean old elitist bloggers have once again taken to smearing Mickey with The Love That Dare Not Bleat It’s Name and this makes the Armed Liberal very sad:

Oh nice job, you guys. This is why we can’t get the public option, gay marriage, and free abortions for everyone. Because you had to be mean to Mickey Kaus and now America is ruined forever.

[Jyminee]

There's actually an argument that kinda makes sense in that original post--the sort of mutual high-fiving epitomized by the "blowing goats" joke demonstrates that the Netroots are an insular movement that won't be able to go mainstream. Not sure if that is correct, though--just a thought.

I actually stopped reading kausfiles a few months ago because I just got sick of it, but it's worth pointing out that Mickey was also correct about a key aspect of Obama's health reform push: that what Mickey called "Orzagism"--the effort to bend the cost curve--was a political loser. Obama thought he would be able to lure in a few moderate GOPers with a bill that constrained long-term medical costs, but by cracking open the door to the dread fear of rationing, he let professional liars like Palin scream "death panel" and galvanized opposition to the bill.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Jyminee

... the Netroots are an insular movement that won't be able to go mainstream.

If so, then praise the FSM, I say. The "mainstream" is what got us GW Bush as president, the invasion of Iraq, and the belief that Jonah Goldberg should be paid to opine in a once-pretty-good newspaper. Among about nine thousand other things you probably don't need me to type out.

I actually stopped reading kausfiles a few months ago because I just got sick of it, but it's worth pointing out that Mickey was also correct about a key aspect of Obama's health reform push: ...

Sorry. I'm not buying any argument that purports to explain why HCR turned into a brutal battle by laying blame at any lefty's feet, including the President's, particularly when it comes to "messaging" or any Kausian wanktastic bloggorrhea like that. Anyone with an ounce of sense and/or a memory that reaches back to the early 1990s knew this was going to be an all-hands-on-deck war to oppose by the Republicans, their paymasters, and their mouth-breathing followers. The lies and FUD would have been spewed by Palin, et al, no matter how the plan was constructed or pitched.

And as to the cost savings (or attempts thereto) I will only say that without that as part of the package, I probably wouldn't support HCR myself.

[bjkeefe]

Okay, one more, just because Scott Lemieux says it so well:

Marc Danzinger's sputtering defense of Mickey Kaus fails to understand that it's not a defense of drawing conclusions based on transparently unreliable evidence that a conclusion happened to be true. Obviously, when you assume that every rumor about a Democratic politician you dislike is true sometimes you're going to be right, but that doesn't retroactively make weak evidence reliable, let alone mean that someone owes Kaus an apology. Danzinger tastefully omits further discussion of some other examples of Kaus's methods in action which make this clear. This campaign's promise of comedy gold is already off to a promising start, though -- the yostabee set will be partying like it's 2002.

[Ed. note: prob. should be "yoostabee."]

[uncle ebeneezer]

Sounds like Jon Swift is endorsing Mickey from the grave:

16. Reporting on people's personal lives should be avoided unless the Drudge Report or the National Enquirer has already written about it, in which case you can report that they reported on it, which is not the same as reporting on it yourself.

...

19. Ruining people's lives is generally frowned upon and should be avoided if at all possible unless the public has a right to know. A journalist must be completely dispassionate and not worry too much about the impact of the story they are writing on the people they are writing about or on the world in general as that would compromise their objectivity. (See Rule No. 1.)

[bjkeefe]

They're all twittering about it!

Ex:

ObWi Mickey Kaus... Mickey Kaus.... He's a blogger right? It's been so long since I've heard anyone mention him...

Ex:

robertniles My $.02 for the day: Mickey Kaus is as much a Democrat as he is a journalist.

Ex:

jamisonfoser Mickey Kaus thinking about running for Senate is like me thinking about playing centerfield for the Yankees.

Many goat-sex jokes, also, too.

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by bjkeefe

[...] Many goat-sex jokes, also, too.

But not to worry. I'm sure the interns will filter them out. Because he is a celebrity, right? Right?