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  #1  
Old 10-30-2011, 07:09 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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  #2  
Old 10-30-2011, 07:17 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Steve Lopez a noted feature columnist at the L.A. Times, wrote the "Soloist" that became a movie, said so far the 99% camped out in Downtown L.A. is all talk and no action. He wonders what the endgame is suppose to be. Having camped out there he heard negative talk about Glass Steagall, withdrawing their money from banks but nothing concrete. One of the General Assembly members or spokesman, Mario Brito, told him they are still formulating plans of action. Stay tuned.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 10-30-2011 at 07:53 PM..
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2011, 08:26 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Steve Lopez a noted feature columnist at the L.A. Times, wrote the "Soloist" that became a movie, said so far the 99% camped out in Downtown L.A. is all talk and no action. He wonders what the endgame is suppose to be. Having camped out there he heard negative talk about Glass Steagall, withdrawing their money from banks but nothing concrete. One of the General Assembly members or spokesman, Mario Brito, told him they are still formulating plans of action. Stay tuned.
Just wait until they get word of Jerry Brown's proposed public employee benefit cuts. Maybe they'll get a little visit from the Ed Show, complete with shots of disadvantaged CalTrans workers, comparisons of Brown to Hitler and big Ed himself crying about Brown balancing the budget on the backs of the workin' man. Kind of a dilemma for MSNBC, though... Jerry Brown being a dem and all

And the weather isn't likely to make any impact on the demonstrator's comfort level. Maybe they'll ship the New York folks to LA.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:27 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

About the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Kevin Phillips first wrote about this 30 years ago in his book "The Politics of Rich and Poor." In at least 3 of of his subsequent books he has touched on this sad aspect of American life. Nothing new here except it's becoming more lopsided than ever as time goes on regardless of who is in the White House and Congress.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2011, 08:23 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Or this:

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  #6  
Old 10-30-2011, 11:01 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I whipped this up yesterday, and it probably deserves more promotion. But I figured what the hell - one good chart deserves another. It illustrates what I often go on about on these forums, namely the correlation between economic inequality and social capital, and how it relates to human capital development, especially education.
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2011, 10:42 PM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I haven't listened yet. But I vote for these two as the best ever BHTV guests. (Wish we could vote.)
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2011, 11:51 PM
PreppyMcPrepperson PreppyMcPrepperson is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

The discussion about the need to tell a story, to turn an economic issue into narrative, made me think immediately of this.
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2011, 10:39 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson View Post
The discussion about the need to tell a story, to turn an economic issue into narrative, made me think immediately of this.
Bimetallism certainly inspires some people to wax rhapsodic.
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  #10  
Old 10-31-2011, 12:02 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson View Post
The discussion about the need to tell a story, to turn an economic issue into narrative, made me think immediately of this.
Good example. I wonder what the analogy could be today.
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  #11  
Old 10-31-2011, 06:48 AM
bbenzon bbenzon is offline
 
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Default Zombies Rising

Fascinating conversation, guys, fascinating.

Yes, I agree, the issues are abstract, the power of charts and graphs not withstanding--they, after all, are abstract.

I was in Liberty Plaza yesterday (Sunday) and I saw zombies. Now, I guess those zombies were supposed to be the 1% on the prowl for the flesh of the 99&. But I'm not sure. Didn't hit me over the head.

But maybe THAT imagery would start bringing things home.
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2011, 07:56 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

Glenn nailed it: People are making money, lots of it, out of thin air. And that is why other people are angry. They are angry at the disproportionate rewards that go to speculation in globalized stock markets, at the low rates of taxation (15% and less) on capital gains, and at government bailouts for gamblers. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with stock markets knows how easy it is to make huge profits (and suffer huge losses) using derivatives, options and other complex financial instruments, most of which did not even exist twenty years ago.

OWS needs a slogan. How about, No free lunch for financiers? Not very original, I know, but it is alliterative besides being the favorite slogan of libertarians, Milton Friedman e tutti quanti.
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:06 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

"Eat the peculators."
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  #14  
Old 10-31-2011, 07:48 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Glenn nailed it: People are making money, lots of it, out of thin air. And that is why other people are angry. They are angry at the disproportionate rewards that go to speculation in globalized stock markets, at the low rates of taxation (15% and less) on capital gains, and at government bailouts for gamblers. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with stock markets knows how easy it is to make huge profits (and suffer huge losses) using derivatives, options and other complex financial instruments, most of which did not even exist twenty years ago.

OWS needs a slogan. How about, No free lunch for financiers? Not very original, I know, but it is alliterative besides being the favorite slogan of libertarians, Milton Friedman e tutti quanti.
You took him literally? I thought he was being sarcastic, or at least trying to mimic a certain thought-process.
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  #15  
Old 11-01-2011, 05:15 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Unit View Post
You took him literally? I thought he was being sarcastic, or at least trying to mimic a certain thought-process.
Do you mean..... just as you try to mimic a certain thought-process?

Of course, the statement is not "literal," but everyone understands, except libertarians apparently, how highly leveraged speculation using derivatives generates huge profits and losses.

Last edited by Florian; 11-01-2011 at 05:25 AM..
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2011, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Do you mean..... just as you try to mimic a certain thought-process?

Of course, the statement is not "literal," but everyone understands, except libertarians apparently, how highly leveraged speculation using derivatives generates huge profits and losses.
No *he* was trying to mimic a simplistic thought-process that starts from semi-automated investors using "arcane mathematical formulas" and ends in scapegoating and anti-semitism. I didn't hear Glenn express a personal opinion on the value of speculation one way or another. As an economics professor I expect him to be well acquainted with the usual arguments in favor of speculators. He was not specifically talking about derivatives or over-leveraging here.

I'm not libertarian but yes I think I understand how damaging over-leveraging is and I happen to think that it is happening because the current political institutions are propping these markets up. The problem is that you can't bundle in together speculators intent in arbitrage (perfectly beneficial activity even though it seems out of thin air) and peddlers of mortgage securities that make money not out thin air but out of the aiding and abeting hand of govt regulators, backed by the full credit and faith of the USofA.
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  #17  
Old 11-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit View Post
I didn't hear Glenn express a personal opinion on the value of speculation one way or another. As an economics professor I expect him to be well acquainted with the usual arguments in favor of speculators. He was not specifically talking about derivatives or over-leveraging here..
So what? I did express a personal opinion, inspired by the expression "making money out of thin air," which is a pretty accurate way of describing leverage and derivatives. I think one can entertain that view without believing in Jewish conspiracies....

Quote:
I'm not libertarian but yes I think I understand how damaging over-leveraging is and I happen to think that it is happening because the current political institutions are propping these markets up. The problem is that you can't bundle in together speculators intent in arbitrage (perfectly beneficial activity even though it seems out of thin air) and peddlers of mortgage securities that make money not out thin air but out of the aiding and abeting hand of govt regulators, backed by the full credit and faith of the USofA.
It always comes back to that for you, doesn't it? Government regulators cause all the problems, even when they fail to regulate.
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  #18  
Old 11-01-2011, 08:12 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: "All that is solid melts into thin air"...Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
So what? I did express a personal opinion, inspired by the expression "making money out of thin air," which is a pretty accurate way of describing leverage and derivatives. I think one can entertain that view without believing in Jewish conspiracies....
Ok, personal opinion is fine, but by saying "Glenn nailed it" I thought you were identifying it with his. If not, fine.

Quote:
It always comes back to that for you, doesn't it? Government regulators cause all the problems, even when they fail to regulate.
How did you get that? I talked about peddlers of mortgage securities as well. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. But yes regulators are in charge of the rules and that's something that we can maybe influence. On the other hand I find hard to see how we can influence people's greed, or moral rectitude, etc...especially if one wants to affect changes through legislation. Legislating morality usually back-fires (see Prohibition). Not encouraging and abetting people to reckless behavior is something that might be possible to do. I don't know. In the alcohol analogy, it would be like saying "I notice that the govt is giving out free liquor and paying for all the damage that might ensue, maybe we should stop doing that", as oppose to outright banning all alcohol, even recreational one in the hope of changing the very "nature" of people (that was actually the intent of Prohibition legislation).
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2011, 12:16 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default What happens when it gets cold?

Why, they will move indoors of course. There are plenty of indoor public spaces to occupy. (Or even private ones -- how about the lobbies of the buildings in which the major trading floors are located?) Might be necessary to chain themselves together though so as to prevent being too easily hauled away by the cops. Jails are warm, too, by the way. Remember Parchman Farm?
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2011, 12:29 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Refining the Indictment: The 99.99%

Glen raises an interesting point. So please forgive me for reposting a comment I made the other day against Rich Lowry on this site, another party to which I was too late:

I have a minor quibble with the way OWS frames the issue in terms of the so-called 99%.

My quibble is this: it isn't the top 1% who are so different than you and me. It's the top .01% or, roughly speaking, the 10,000 wealthiest families in America (together with their counterparts overseas). These are the families that NYT financial reporter David Cay Johston labels "the donor class" because they bankroll both political parties and thereby control the political agenda, on issues of trade, immigration, and tax policy particularly.

Why is this distinction important? Well, mainly because you don't want to multiply your opponents unnecessarily. There's quite a difference between families with a net worth around $5 million and those whose net worths are $50 million and up.

In the first place the first group generally pays its taxes. The second group does does not. According to Johnson as of 1996 they escaped paying roughly $300 billion annually which they legally owe. (It's no doubt a good deal more than that now -- enough, in fact, to close the annual budget deficit of our federal government in ordinary years.)

How do they do it? Principally by concealing most of their incomes in a nest of shell corporations and overseas tax havens, using a small army of lawyers and tax accountants to bring it all off. Plus of course by buying off both political parties, thereby making sure our elected officials don't even think about sicking the IRS on them in any serious or systematic way. That NYT reporter spells it all out.

Those million families worth $5 million on the other hand are, thanks to inflation, today's haute bourgeoisie. They are your typical Main Street business people, local merchants, small factory owners, the decayed descendants of former wealth.

Now the fact is these Main Street millionaires don't wield near the influence on our political process as the super-rich do. Which leads to the question: How can we identify members of that more exclusive elite?

Well, there are only about 200 of them per state on the average. It is not a big group, and if you've lived very long in any typical metropolitan area in America you can probably name half of them just by reading the local society pages. They "are" local society for all intents and purposes. You can even find out where they live if you just ask around (hint, hint).

But if instead of targeting this creme de la creme you target the million or so families who compose the haute beorgeosie, then you are asking for a lot of unnecessary trouble. Particularly if your idea is to make them "pay" for the sins of their betters.

These people will fight you with every fiber of their being and, based on historical experience, will probably prevail. For which reason their betters will be more than happy to encourage you in your misguidedness, the bigger guys hiding behind the littler ones as they always have.

Bottom line: Know your enemy. That's the first rule of war, including class war. And that, dear protesters, is the sum and substance of my quibble. Change those signs to 99.99%!

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 10-31-2011 at 12:40 PM..
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  #21  
Old 10-31-2011, 12:56 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Threatening the Vote?

This is a good conversation with all sorts of provocative, interesting ideas being floated. I liked John's idea that OWS can't have much political influence unless it can "threaten the vote." How might it be done? Well, how about a 3rd party candidate, somebody like Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who has good OWS credentials and would be guaranteed to syphon off enough votes to insure a Republican victory (remember Ross Perot? Ralph Nader) and who would in effect extract firm written pledges from Obama or else refuse to pull out. His basic campaign speech would just be a repeat of the one he gave from the Senate floor a couple of years back.

That might do the trick. Just a thought.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 10-31-2011 at 12:59 PM..
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  #22  
Old 10-31-2011, 01:07 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Civil Disobedience -- Shut down Manhattan!

Manhattan is the most vulnerable city on the planet for this kind of civil disobedience. Hell, you can barely get into and out of the city even on a good day. The Lincoln Tunnel, George Washington Bridge, Tri-borough Bridge, etc.. No need to set yourself on fire. Just call a flash mob and chain yourselves together. This is a doable project in case anyone wants to know.
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  #23  
Old 10-31-2011, 04:55 PM
Winspur Winspur is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

This was a meaty, intelligent discussion, really one of the best in recent BHTV.

Will there be OWS martyrs? Sadly, Scott Olsen, a veteran and Occupy Oakland protester, has already suffered severe brain damage from a tear gas canister. He may become the first martyr.
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  #24  
Old 10-31-2011, 05:03 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winspur View Post
This was a meaty, intelligent discussion, really one of the best in recent BHTV.

Will there be OWS martyrs? Sadly, Scott Olsen, a veteran and Occupy Oakland protester, has already suffered severe brain damage from a tear gas canister. He may become the first martyr.
Martyr? Really?
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  #25  
Old 10-31-2011, 07:54 PM
carkrueger carkrueger is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I Loved the conversation on Herman Cain!
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  #26  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:15 PM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Originally Posted by carkrueger View Post
I Loved the conversation on Herman Cain!
Me too. For some reason I like Herman Cain even though his politics are really different than mine. I love that he's so honest, that he seems to be saying what he thinks, not pushing some ideology or saying whatever 80 experts told him would attract votes, not following some slogans or "talking points". I love that he says he doesn't know when he doesn't and I read one story about him admitting he was wrong about something. He just gives me the impression that he's strong but flexible at the same time, which is not common among politicians, or people generally. He just exudes common sense.

Anyway, unfortunately it might all be because he hasn't learned to be a politician yet. But, for now, he seems like a big blast of fresh air.
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  #27  
Old 11-01-2011, 07:36 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

How strange to watch John and Glenn summarily dismiss a greatly successful black man who is polling very high among republican candidates. Thanks at least for pointing out he is darker than Barack Obama, I hadn't noticed (or cared).

Glenn just can't consider him a serious candidate, much less vote for him. Yet he can vote for an unaccomplished product of the Chicago machine who has shown no knowledge of prudent economics nor the ability to lead.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:51 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Glenn just can't consider him a serious candidate, much less vote for him. Yet he can vote for an unaccomplished product of the Chicago machine who has shown no knowledge of prudent economics nor the ability to lead.
heh. you seem to have ignored the fact that Glenn was a VERY reluctant Obama voter, pretty much forced into voting for him because the alternative was Rocky and Bulltinkle.

Also, Glenn's view of Cain as a non-serious candidate hardly puts him out of step with 80% of the people who are paying attention.

Waiting for the comments about how one has to apply an asterix to Cain's accomplishments given that they occurred during the heyday of Affirmative Action, when white guys couldn't catch a break.
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  #29  
Old 11-01-2011, 09:56 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

I have to say that I found this discussion to be disconcertingly chatty and superficial as regards OWS. It does not seem to me that it's terribly difficult to understand what the fundamental message of OWS is: "We are disenfranchised, `democracy' is not working, the economic system is not working."

People keep saying that OWS must work within the electoral system, but the electoral system is broken. The constitution is broken and outdated, and the electoral system is controlled by Wall Street and corporations and a reactionary Supreme Court. And roughly half of eligible voters almost never vote. As regards working within the existing political structure, there are basically two possibilities: a third party movement, or serious reform of the Democratic Party and its fundraising. I will give Glenn Loury credit for having foreseen during the 2008 presidential campaign that many Democrats might come to regret Obama's forsaking of the public campaign matching funds.

I do think that a concrete goal that could be stated and achieved would be to break up the biggest financial conglomerates. But this would be a long-term goal, it could take 10 to 20 years to achieve, during which time many very serious crises, particularly environmental ones, are likely to present themselves and to overwhelm concerns about financial concentration. A second goal could be to turn some substantial part of the military budget into permanent employment programs of the federal government devoted to physical infrastructure and education.

Both of these black "liberal" bhtv regulars had their careers advanced by the right-wing money train. These are not conventional liberals, by any stretch of the imagination. My sense is that they are complacent, while all the while protesting that they are not. No, the US is not in a revolutionary situation, and yes, it is unlikely that OWS will put the US in a revolutionary situation.
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Old 11-01-2011, 02:05 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I have to say that I found this discussion to be disconcertingly chatty and superficial as regards OWS. It does not seem to me that it's terribly difficult to understand what the fundamental message of OWS is: "We are disenfranchised, `democracy' is not working, the economic system is not working."

People keep saying that OWS must work within the electoral system, but the electoral system is broken. The constitution is broken and outdated, and the electoral system is controlled by Wall Street and corporations and a reactionary Supreme Court. And roughly half of eligible voters almost never vote. As regards working within the existing political structure, there are basically two possibilities: a third party movement, or serious reform of the Democratic Party and its fundraising. I will give Glenn Loury credit for having foreseen during the 2008 presidential campaign that many Democrats might come to regret Obama's forsaking of the public campaign matching funds.

I do think that a concrete goal that could be stated and achieved would be to break up the biggest financial conglomerates. But this would be a long-term goal, it could take 10 to 20 years to achieve, during which time many very serious crises, particularly environmental ones, are likely to present themselves and to overwhelm concerns about financial concentration. A second goal could be to turn some substantial part of the military budget into permanent employment programs of the federal government devoted to physical infrastructure and education.

Both of these black "liberal" bhtv regulars had their careers advanced by the right-wing money train. These are not conventional liberals, by any stretch of the imagination. My sense is that they are complacent, while all the while protesting that they are not. No, the US is not in a revolutionary situation, and yes, it is unlikely that OWS will put the US in a revolutionary situation.
I tend to agree with this.
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  #31  
Old 11-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I have to say that I found this discussion to be disconcertingly chatty and superficial as regards OWS. It does not seem to me that it's terribly difficult to understand what the fundamental message of OWS is: "We are disenfranchised, `democracy' is not working, the economic system is not working."
Why is democracy not working, because they don't win? Why is the economic system not working, because some have more than them?

I notice there is a severe lack of polling about these people. (Contrast that to the Tea Party, which was flooded with polls) I suspect that these malcontents are pretty heavily stocked with petit bourgeois urban professionals; a group of people who are the least legitimate complainants in our society.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:16 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

from Sulla the Deleterious:

Quote:
Why is democracy not working, because they don't win? Why is the economic system not working, because some have more than them?
I thought OWS was concerned, among other things, about a jobs deficiency that is abroad in the nation. So that might provide evidence of an economy that is not working as it should, or as the occupiers think that it should. But your tendentious questions surely are not meant to be taken seriously, so I will give them the attention they deserve.

Quote:
I suspect that these malcontents are pretty heavily stocked with petit bourgeois urban professionals
And I suspect that you are wildly off-base here. A petit bourgeois urban professional has an annual income of at least $80,000 or so, depending on the MSA involved, or do you disagree with that? Urban professionals who are employed can't be camping out in parks. Perhaps you think that there are lots of former petit bourgeois urban professionals among the occupiers, but I strongly suspect that you could not be more wrong on that score too. There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed kids under 30. I suspect that that is the largest group among the occupiers nationwide.
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Last edited by ledocs; 11-01-2011 at 06:18 PM..
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  #33  
Old 11-01-2011, 07:12 PM
grits-n-gravy grits-n-gravy is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I have to say that I found this discussion to be disconcertingly chatty and superficial as regards OWS. It does not seem to me that it's terribly difficult to understand what the fundamental message of OWS is: "We are disenfranchised, `democracy' is not working, the economic system is not working."

People keep saying that OWS must work within the electoral system, but the electoral system is broken. The constitution is broken and outdated, and the electoral system is controlled by Wall Street and corporations and a reactionary Supreme Court. And roughly half of eligible voters almost never vote. As regards working within the existing political structure, there are basically two possibilities: a third party movement, or serious reform of the Democratic Party and its fundraising. I will give Glenn Loury credit for having foreseen during the 2008 presidential campaign that many Democrats might come to regret Obama's forsaking of the public campaign matching funds.

I do think that a concrete goal that could be stated and achieved would be to break up the biggest financial conglomerates. But this would be a long-term goal, it could take 10 to 20 years to achieve, during which time many very serious crises, particularly environmental ones, are likely to present themselves and to overwhelm concerns about financial concentration. A second goal could be to turn some substantial part of the military budget into permanent employment programs of the federal government devoted to physical infrastructure and education.

Both of these black "liberal" bhtv regulars had their careers advanced by the right-wing money train. These are not conventional liberals, by any stretch of the imagination. My sense is that they are complacent, while all the while protesting that they are not. No, the US is not in a revolutionary situation, and yes, it is unlikely that OWS will put the US in a revolutionary situation.
I'd like to second this post. I was especially put off by John's dismissive, snobbish tone. I can think of two more goals I'd like this movement (if it can be called a movement) to adopt: (1) push to have States create their own public bank and (2) reform the Federal Reserve by making it a truly PUBLIC bank.

Last edited by grits-n-gravy; 11-01-2011 at 07:32 PM..
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  #34  
Old 11-03-2011, 07:40 PM
thprop thprop is offline
 
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Default A slight correction for Glenn

Richard J. Daley did not give the shoot to kill order with regards to the protesters at the Democratic Convention in 1968. He gave it in response to the riots following the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. in April of 1968. Daley's exact words were:
Quote:
I said to him (police superintendent James B. Conlisk) very emphatically and very definitely that an order be issued by him immediately to shoot to kill any arsonist or anyone with a Molotov cocktail in his hand, because they're potential murderers, and to shoot to maim or cripple anyone looting.
It was understood that the order was directed against young, black men. Later that month, Daley asserted "There wasn't any shoot-to-kill order. That was a fabrication."

Daley's most well known comment about the police came after the Democratic National Convention in August of 1968:
Quote:
Gentlemen, get the thing straight once and for all– the policeman isn't there to create disorder, the policeman is there to preserve disorder.
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Old 10-30-2011, 08:20 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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>> McWhorter: "the issues are so abstract,"
What is so abstract about this?

Wages as percentage of GDP.

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  #36  
Old 10-30-2011, 11:01 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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What is so abstract about this?
Everything. If you really want to talk about the core of "what's wrong," the problem is difficult and systemic and the solution requires nuance. Here's a video of a few OWS protesters attempting a substantive rallying cry. Words by BHTV's somewhat regular guest Conor Friedersdorf.



Awkward. On the one hand, what they were reading is a very legitimate, substantive issue that deserves to be addressed (or maybe that was the point of Dodd-Frank). On the other hand, the protesters had no idea what they were reading.

As usual, McWhorter and Loury covered most of the bases and their conclusions largely comport with my own.
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Old 10-30-2011, 11:12 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Everything. If you really want to talk about the core of "what's wrong," the problem is difficult and systemic and the solution requires nuance. Here's a video of a few OWS protesters attempting a substantive rallying cry. Words by BHTV's somewhat regular guest Conor Friedersdorf.

Awkward. On the one hand, what they were reading is a very legitimate, substantive issue that deserves to be addressed (or maybe that was the point of Dodd-Frank). On the other hand, the protesters had no idea what they were reading.

As usual, McWhorter and Loury covered most of the bases and their conclusions largely comport with my own.
I think it is a fair criticism. But I actually think it has an easy fix: tax the heck out of the rich to pay for necessary social programs. It may be eat the rich, but the The Tea Party does eat the poor. So what.

I don't think there are any clear answers - and that doesn't make for good politics. This explains much of the incoherence of OWS and the Tea Party. I just posted a graphic upthread that I think demolishes much of the education reform debate and illustrates the enormity of the problem. This stuff is really hard. Yet, do we need to have answers?

Right now I'll settle for people getting healthcare, social security, public transportation, parks, libraries, community colleges, and roads and bridges that aren't falling apart. I think we can do that. I think the rich can pay for it. I think we have every right to demand that they do. In the meantime, we'll keep doing the hard work, the low paying jobs.

That is the bargain.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:02 AM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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It may be eat the rich, but the The Tea Party does eat the poor.
No, no, no, no! The tea party is on the same side as OWS: they just don't know about it. The tea party exists for PRECISELY the same reason OWS exists. Both movements are pissed at the elites for ripping them off and both are right to be pissed off. The government is ripping us off and the tea party is right about that; corporations (for which the government works) are ripping us off and OWS is right about it. I believe in government but not in THAT government. In that sense I am a tea partier. It kills me to have to pay taxes to those greasy plutocrats and wall street oligarchs who use their 15% tax rate and multimillion dollar bonuses to buy the NYPD so they can have hookers and drugs with impunity. (Which is, as any trader will tell you, what JP Morgan's $4.6 mil "donation" was all about.)

Last edited by ohreally; 10-31-2011 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 10-31-2011, 01:11 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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No, no, no, no! The tea party is on the same side as OWS: they just don't know about it. The tea party exists for PRECISELY the same reason OWS exists. Both movements are pissed at the elites for ripping them off and both are right to be pissed off. The government is ripping us off and the tea party is right about that; corporations (for which the government works) are ripping us off and OWS is right about it. I believe in government but not in THAT government. In that sense I am a tea partier. It kills me to have to pay taxes to those greasy plutocrats and wall street oligarchs who use their 15% tax rate and multimillion dollar bonuses to buy the NYPD so they can have hookers and drugs with impunity. (Which is, as any trader will tell you, what JP Morgan's $4.6 mil "donation" was all about.)
Maybe the Tea partiers have convinced themselves that they are opposed to crony capitalism and corporate democracy, but if that's the case then they've done an awfully poor job of converting that sentiment into policy. As far as I can tell, the Tea Party favored politicians out there are interested in screwing the poor, making it easier for Republicans to win elections in the future, lowering taxes on the super-rich, and repealing everything with Barack Obama's name on it. I don't see an actual anti-Wall Street agenda lurking in there, but maybe it's just because I haven't been issued my secret decoder ring.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:40 AM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Capitalism and Its Discontents (John McWhorter & Glenn Loury)

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Maybe the Tea partiers have convinced themselves that they are opposed to crony capitalism and corporate democracy, but if that's the case then they've done an awfully poor job of converting that sentiment into policy. As far as I can tell, the Tea Party favored politicians out there are interested in screwing the poor, making it easier for Republicans to win elections in the future, lowering taxes on the super-rich, and repealing everything with Barack Obama's name on it. I don't see an actual anti-Wall Street agenda lurking in there, but maybe it's just because I haven't been issued my secret decoder ring.
Or maybe it's because you have impossibly high standards, and see things through a certain perspective? The supposedly horrible things you claim the tea party politicians want aren't mutually exclusive with opposition to crony capitalism. Let's just separate anti-wall street sentiment with anti crony-capitalism (you seem to have conflated the two). I can rattle off plenty of examples of opposition to crony capitalism coming from these politicians. It's not the same exactly as anti wall street sentiment, but you can attack a single problem from lots of angles. And since you mentioned it, repealing stuff that has Barack Obama's name on it is probably the best way to go about pushing back against crony capitalism.
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