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  #1  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Pinkie Finger Prism

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  #2  
Old 01-29-2009, 11:11 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Robert Wright is so funny!
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2009, 11:35 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Bob said it without realizing it, "a day of reckoning has to come".

Watching the reckoning here in CA as tax refunds are stalled and the unions fight the governor who is trying to apply common sense.

Obama's stimulus package really stimulates nothing more than democratic constituents, the time-honored practice of buying votes.

Glad to hear Mickey was able to enjoy himself in Washington as democrats also continued their time-honored practice of flouting the rules they demand of everyone else. What was it, 600 private jets? Classic.
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  #4  
Old 01-29-2009, 11:36 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Bob, while I applaud your effort to maintain (or restore) a more civilized tone to the comments section, I don't quite understand your emphasis on the evil of sarcasm. Sarcasm is a big part of BHTV as with anything else in our culture. Ironically, you use sarcasm probably better than anyone. While everything can be overdone to a detrimental level, I haven't noticed a particular increase in sarcastic comments on this forum. There have always been sarcastic comments. Many times they are funny. Often times not. While I agree that we commentors should try to be somewhat respectful of the diavloggers (after all, they are the ones that we love to watch) I think you are overstating the threat of a little derisive humor and snark. Just to use an example close to me, when someone like David Frum makes statements about the irresponsibility of sending the wrong message to the Muslim world, the most obvious (and my opinion, most relevant) response would be to make a quick sarcastic reference to the "axis of evil" phrase (which just MAY have had some adverse effects on American interests). To me, this sort of thing is infinitely preferable to commentors making non-sarcastic, delusional accusations that so and so is an anti-semite or other nasty slanders. I guess I've just never understood why sarcasm is so frowned upon, when it can be used cleverly and effectively to sometimes make very subtle points in a more entertaining fashion. Anyways, I will try to tone it down, but if you keep having people like Bob Kagan on, I can't promise how well I will be able to stick to that goal.
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  #5  
Old 01-29-2009, 11:36 PM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default What is a Neocon + I love BhTV

1) Neocon has morphed into a shorthand for someone who has an interventionist foreign policy, was on the right and supported the Iraq war. But I think the old meaning of Neocon is someone who thinks cultural modernity is bad and that the masses have to be reintroduced to religion to save society. I would rather have a war supporter writing for the Times than that kind of Neocon, if I had to pick. (I have been thinking about this since C. Hitchens sort of called himself a Neocon on BhTV, and I was like LOL Whut? Am I incorrect?)

2) The only bad think about BhTV is that Mickey doesn't do diavlogs with other people very often anymore.

3) I would pledge real American dollars for Bloggingheads, of course.
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  #6  
Old 01-29-2009, 11:54 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Hand Outstretched

The progressive/liberal diavloggers like Obama, the conservatives don't, and the independents are hopefull and giving him a chance. I don't see how that makes this a "Pro Obama site." Or how this, in any way reflects a transgression on Bob's part. Considering President Obama currently has a 70% approval rating I would say that this site is merely representative of reality. Bob has never seemed to try to make this site lean in any direction or another, aside from being intellectual and a place for great discussions.
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  #7  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:04 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Bob, regarding civility.

It's a bit late. The clique here has been profane (I even made an few attempts to address it but was shouted down) and/or uncivil with anyone they disagree with for quite some time. The snide remarks, even the demands to ban certain conservative participants here, while always ridiculous, seemed to get much more support than the common sense rebuttal they deserved. Some of the more level-headed on the left have tried to quell the hate but it's been rare.

And you chide (albeit gently) Mickey for not responding here, have you seen some of the hate leveled in his direction? Some of the bile directed at Kaus, Goldberg, Frum, York, Beutler etc for the simple act of disagreement has been beyond the pale for quite some time.

I applaud the effort, but this should have been said long ago. And a site where the civility factor matches that of the bloggers participating, even if it still tilts heavily left, would be something worth supporting.
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  #8  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:08 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Pledge or Subscribe

I'm not going to make an actual commitment.

But, I would argue, that subscribers like something extra for giving money. I subscribe to publications that give me more than the average web-surfer can get with a click. I wouldn't just pledge money to PBS or bhTV for a mug and a t-shirt. especially if I have to listen to 'heads to whom I wouldn't subscribe separately without a say in the matter.
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  #9  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:15 AM
buckle buckle is offline
 
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Default the surge worked? says who?

Wait, when was it decided that the surge worked? The last thing I saw was that the surge was getting way too much credit for the reduction of violence in Iraq: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0919074830.htm

Has there been any serious response to this? Sure, politicians keep repeating that the surge worked, but politicians say all kinds of things. It seems like the NYT should hire someone who was against the war and who acknowledges the surge didn't work.
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  #10  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:41 AM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Maybe David Frum should have been held to the "civility" standard when he treated the guy debating Gaza with undisguised contempt. And a few others, like Ann Althouse, are simply nuts and little more than laughable. Frankly I don't think Bloggingheads is a very balanced site - it's an absurd conceit to suggest that Heather Hurlburt is as hard "left" as Frum is nutty neocon right. If someone can show me a Hurlburt crackpot "left" equivalent to Frums "Axis of Evil" rhetoric or that crazy book he wrote with the egregious war profiteer Richard Perle, I'd be very interested.
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  #11  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:42 AM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: the surge worked? says who?

Violence started going down around the time the surge happened. Whether you think the surge contributed or that violence would have gone down more with a partition plan or retreat or whatever is largely a function of which party you identify with.

Also, I'd be up for chipping in some jacksons if you're giving away chintzy merchandise with it. Culture11 just closed too, you free content companies are being real downers lately.
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  #12  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:43 AM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

I would pledge -- $50 bucks a couple or three times a year. And I won't rant no mo.
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  #13  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:49 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: the surge worked? says who?

Quote:
It seems like the NYT should hire someone who was against the war and who acknowledges the surge didn't work.
Cue hysterical cries of "Fairness Doctrine!!"
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  #14  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:56 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Agreed. Notice that most of the recipients of the harshest comments (Frum, Goldbergh, Kagan) are people who make their living by spouting ridiculous/hateful comments about others. Not that that is a justification, it is an explanation. I would think that Bob would appreciate this as a simple feedback loop that society uses to reinforce it's norms.

Bob, I hope you give Mickey a stern talking-to after this diavlog. He called (actual BH diavlogger) Rob Reich a "Huckster." And he also used sarcasm more than once. "BH Venture Capitalists...we hardly knew ye."
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  #15  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:57 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

I just wanna know who Bob's talking about. I hope it's not me!
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  #16  
Old 01-30-2009, 01:42 AM
Jyminee Jyminee is offline
 
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Default Commenter etiquette

I think this is a good guideline for commenters: we have to respect the people who come on Bloggingheads, but we don't have to respect their ideas. We should remember that these are real people who volunteer their time without pay to come on and present their views. Unless someone says something extremely egregious, don't attack the person or their motivations, attack what they're saying.
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  #17  
Old 01-30-2009, 01:47 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: the surge worked? says who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckle View Post
Wait, when was it decided that the surge worked?
Before it started.
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  #18  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:19 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
And you chide (albeit gently) Mickey for not responding here, have you seen some of the hate leveled in his direction? Some of the bile directed at Kaus, Goldberg, Frum, York, Beutler etc for the simple act of disagreement has been beyond the pale for quite some time.

Absolutely. As a leftish person, I really appreciate the participation of the smart right. This is the only place with video that gives you the right perspective without being fox newsy.
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  #19  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:22 AM
KingFish KingFish is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

note to Bob:

Harkin's earlier remark summed up exactly why I would not comment here on Bloggingheads.
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  #20  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:28 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Mickey Channels Houdini

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/174...2:27&out=23:18
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  #21  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:05 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
[...]
Very well said, Uncle Eb. As a fellow lover of (good) sarcasm, I second your response to Bob.

I'll add that sarcasm directed at a diavlogger seems entirely within the boundaries, particularly when one considers how offensive or at least disrespectful are some of the things said by some diavloggers, how lackluster an effort some others put in, and how tiresome it is to keep hearing the same things by those in a third set.

As to why we might watch people we don't like, Bob, I'd say first that I, personally, do have a skip list. I may occasionally watch someone on that list because of the other diavlogger. I continue to watch some others whom I dislike because I would like to push back against the message they're trying to spread, however meager my efforts might be.

As for the inter-commenter strife, I'd just advise you to ignore it. As far as I can tell, it always dies away on its own. If you're worried what this might look like to potential new diavloggers, I suggest you point them at places where other diavloggers have themselves weighed in -- I'd say polite responses are obtained more than 95% of the time in these cases, and that this is a far, far better measure of the level of respect the audience has for the diavloggers. The commenter-on-commenter stuff, when it's in the gutter, rarely has anything to do with the diavloggers or the diavlogs' content.
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:12 AM
hurt hurt is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

So Mickey really thought China hasn't changed since Tiananmen? Come on, please only talk assertively about things you know about.
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:24 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
... even the demands to ban certain conservative participants here ...
Again you make this claim, and again I challenge you to document it.

Which you won't be able to do, unless you quote a joke out of context.

As to the rest of your complaints, I'd say a similar thing to you that Bob said to the commenters who don't like certain diavloggers: if it bothers you so much, why do you keep reading? Seems to me you've got a clearly defined list in your mind of people who you don't approve of. Why not just add them to your ignore list?
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  #24  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:26 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
So Mickey really thought China hasn't changed since Tiananmen? Come on, please only talk assertively about things you know about.
Kaus' suggestion to temporarily suspend commercial relations with China was basically absurd (no sarcasm here). Bob won that exchange hands down. I'm surprised that such overt "democratic fundamentalism" hasn't been thoroughly discredited by now.
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:31 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: the surge worked? says who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Before it started.
Nice.
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  #26  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:32 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Agreed. Notice that most of the recipients of the harshest comments (Frum, Goldbergh, Kagan) are people who make their living by spouting ridiculous/hateful comments about others.
Add Ann Althouse to that list (although, admittedly, her blog is her hobby, not the way she makes a living).

Let's not forget Jerome Corsi was given a platform, too.
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  #27  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:35 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Commenter etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyminee View Post
I think this is a good guideline for commenters: we have to respect the people who come on Bloggingheads, but we don't have to respect their ideas. We should remember that these are real people who volunteer their time without pay to come on and present their views. Unless someone says something extremely egregious, don't attack the person or their motivations, attack what they're saying.
That's a good guideline, but I don't think you've caught everything that's involved. Remember that a lot of people who come on as diavloggers are happy to be given the platform, whether it's to push an agenda, pimp a book, promote their own brand, stroke their own egos, or whatever. Particularly in the first case, it seems entirely legitimate to question their motivations, especially the sneaky ones who spread lies and FUD under the cover of a measured tone of voice.
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:41 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Hand Outstretched

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidneystones View Post
And I'll add that I see a real effort to be more civil from our one formerly banned member who must really struggle to keep things on an even keel. Our most prolific commenter appears to be heading in the other direction, not that I think most notice or care.
Same old gutless kidneystones. Loves to snipe, too chicken to name names.

Can't say your return is likely to help the level of civility. You back to spread more lies about Obama, or have you something new to be deranged about?
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:50 AM
hurt hurt is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Ach, I just finished Bob's plea for civility and I have to apologize if my comment came off as too abrasive.
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  #30  
Old 01-30-2009, 03:57 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

I think I'm getting the picture now ... sarcasm bad, criticism good. But just to be sure, we should compile a list of the most sarcastic posts, and rank them. It's best to get this out in the open. I am completely, utterly sincere about this.

For example, I may have doomed bhtv by posting this recently.
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  #31  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:03 AM
MikeDrew MikeDrew is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Jesus, dod someone slip them both stupid juice? The right stays home cause of family values...the left parties because of the young people?!?!

Um, hello: the left WON, and the right LOST. That's why they did or didn't party on inauguration night.

Wow. (Head shaking here.)
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  #32  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:03 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Gaza and Bheads pledge drive

I vowed a few months ago never to watch or read Mickey again, so I almost missed Bob's comments at the end of this diavlog. I'm glad he had such a compelling topic heading, but it probably would have been better to do a separate "Bob addresses the viewers" segment.

I not sure how uncivil the Gaza discussions were. I didn't participate much. I was too horrified by Israeli brutality to deal with the issues with any detachment. As a Jew and a Hebrew speaker, I've been following Israel closely all my life. I'm very pessimistic about the situation, and I'd be amazed if things don't deteriorate further rather quickly.

My hunch is that some of the incivility Bob referred to may have to do with the public's collective assessment that the region is a ticking international time bomb. Makes everyone nervous.

One of the most disheartening aspects of the impasse is how polarized and ossified the discussion remains: old lame ideas reiterated with repulsive monotony. No peace, no progress, no exit. So I have little patience for the usual lineup of pundits.

Having said that, I still check in on Bheads every day, and I definitely would kick in some $$ to support the project. I won't mention a number because I think a contribution should be a whatever-you-can-afford gesture. Bheads is a unique cultural asset that I want to help sustain.
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  #33  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:05 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

P.S. I'd also say, harkin, that a lot of the incivility here on this board starts with a few conservative commenters who seem to like nothing finer than coming here to drop flame bait or who often seem bent on picking fights. I would say that you, Salt, piscivorous, danking, kidneystones, and DenvilleSteve are among this group. (There are others, I'm sure, who don't come to mind, or who seem to have vanished.) I do not say about any of you that you do this exclusively, but you all do it to some degree. Maybe you think you're just expressing an opinion to which no one should take offense, but that's just not how it works. What seems reasonable to you may be objectionable to others, and I'm sure you're all aware of this at least some of the time.

While there may be something of worth to your complaints about the tone of the responses, you should also bear in mind what provokes it. Yes, it's reasonable up to a point to ask that people who can't think of anything to say in response except something cutting instead say nothing at all, but only up to a point. Beyond that, it seems to me that asking that someone be allowed to mouth off without pushback is asking for an unwarranted privilege.

Our country is dominated by loutish rightwingers who have too long been allowed to speak unchallenged. The truth of this may be measured by the fact that when objections are raised, you interpret it as "calls for banning." I'll say for the ninety-ninth time at least that you're being hysterical when you say this, and repeat that you're welcome to say whatever you want. Just don't think you can ask for carte blanche.
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  #34  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:06 AM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

When the call is issued, I will certainly respond.

There really should be a permanently available contributions button.

The NPR analogy reminds me that bh.tv needs to improve its t-shirts and mugs, and start charging more in the way of premium rates for great merchandise. It's part of the fund-raising gig. I love my "deploy the moose" t-shirt of the first vintage, I hasten to add.

I have to say that both Bob and Mickey should have books to sell etc so that they can get some positive externalities for their income out of their appearances here. Bob has one on the way I know, but its time that Mickey returned to the subject of social equality in Obama's America.
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  #35  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:13 AM
x9#z6 x9#z6 is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Some advice fore bloggingheads:

1) Please have more econ content. It's far and away the biggest issue of the day yet on the side bar to my left there are currently zero diavlogs dedicated to this topic. I personally come to bloggingheads to see intelligent discussions on the current big topics and your missing this one by not getting smart knowledgeable economists battle it out here.

2) I miss the McWhorter Loury diavlogs and if you get them back I hope they don't restrict themselves to just topics of race.
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  #36  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:15 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

It's hard to respond to sarcasm. It's often a conversation-stopper. And of course sometimes it's mistaken for non-sarcasm.
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  #37  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:18 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
P.S. I'd also say, harkin, that a lot of the incivility here on this board starts with a few conservative commenters who seem to like nothing finer than coming here to drop flame bait or who often seem bent on picking fights.
One man's flamebait is another's obvious truism.I've seen lots of dismissive comments made here about religion where the only responses, at least for some time, are an Amen from the atheist congregation.
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  #38  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:21 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

bhtv is kind of like a year-round TED, and TED looks like it's doing pretty well.

Are they fedexing computers and cameras and tapes around? They could save a bunch of money doing it all digital.
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  #39  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:23 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Agreed. Notice that most of the recipients of the harshest comments (Frum, Goldbergh, Kagan) are people who make their living by spouting ridiculous/hateful comments about others.
Most of this type of sniping generally comes from the left. When's the last time you read a post where someone pissed all over Heather Hurlburt? Dare I say the ingroup-i-ness also exists on the left, but I suppose that's a given because there aren't enough conservatives on here to band together. As a lefty, I feel like I have to defend Frum, Kagan, etc., just because nobody else does. Unfortunately, I do a piss poor job of it because I'm just not a con by heart.

It also surprises me how much the lefties on here engage in selective hearing. Isn't it a liberal quality to sort of seek out the truth in things rather than be so in-groupy?

I implore those of you who enjoy spewing your frothy mouthed vitriol (right or left) to watch Jonathan Haidt's lecture on the real differences between libs and cons. Maybe you'll be less pissed off all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc
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  #40  
Old 01-30-2009, 04:25 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Pinkie Finger Prism

Quote:
Originally Posted by x9#z6 View Post
Some advice fore bloggingheads:

1) Please have more econ content. It's far and away the biggest issue of the day yet on the side bar to my left there are currently zero diavlogs dedicated to this topic. I personally come to bloggingheads to see intelligent discussions on the current big topics and your missing this one by not getting smart knowledgeable economists battle it out here.
Yeah, business is a big seller. And there are a ton of unaffiliated econobloggers out there who don't have their own corporate site to support. I'd love to see Mark Thoma, Brad DeLong, Daniel Davies, Max Sawicky, etc. Felix Salmon is a good guy too.
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