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  #41  
Old 08-20-2011, 09:16 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
I'm not sure what you think I think about you, and what you're driving at here. Are you the root of all evil? wtf.
I was using myself as an example, not pointing fingers.

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To the extent that Democrats support homosexuality, they are on the side of good in my book. I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
They've provided a more welcoming political home, I'll grant you that.

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I know I can be a sexist pig - usually through my actions more than words. I have racist thoughts from time to time. I can be classist. It's all a process of trying to be self-aware.
Being self-aware is a good thing. Using your awareness as a weapon against those who may not have gotten to the same stage of awareness seems pretty wrong to me. Nobody ever debated me into being more accepting of gays. I had to become friends with them. It's like I said in a conversation with you a while back. If you're willing to absolve impoverished minority kids who grow up to lead a life of crime, you must also absolve Christian fundamentalist children who grow up in dogmatic religious circumstances. Dawkins tells us that children have no choice in religion. The rest seems logical.
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  #42  
Old 08-20-2011, 09:28 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Well, sure. I am not in the business of battle cries. I am having a conversation with you, where I am assuming we are both being as honest as reasonably possible.
Right. So, tell me about the fundies as that seems to be the source of our disagreement.
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  #43  
Old 08-20-2011, 11:02 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
If you're willing to absolve impoverished minority kids who grow up to lead a life of crime, you must also absolve Christian fundamentalist children who grow up in dogmatic religious circumstances. Dawkins tells us that children have no choice in religion. The rest seems logical.
Oh, I completely agree. But we still need to hold them accountable. I mean, as for debating, etc., it's hard to say what works. A lot depends on the person, the timing, etc. I think sometimes taking a soft approach probably works best.

But then at other times, a strong and clear process of shaming can be powerful too. Then you also have to look at the effect your stance is having on the other people in the room. For instance, I might put up with more from someone if their object of hatred isn't in the room. I think the first priority is to do whatever makes the most sense for the victim. Maybe they don't want to deal with a "discussion" of whether or not they are a "wetback", or "unnatural".

It's an tricky phenomenon, and best to remember that we are all doing the best we can to figure things out and people do what they know. But it's also like someone who is being rude or selfish. Sometimes they just need to be told they are acting like a "dick". So much of racism, etc. I think is about being oblivious to the perspective of others. As the empathy goes up, so too does the cognitive dissonance between the prejudice and reality.
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  #44  
Old 08-20-2011, 11:12 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
People on the left who are honest will certainly acknowledge that Dems qua Dems have not been great on gay issues. They only look great when compared to the GOP.
I completely agree with this. But again, I go back to the whole philosophy of tolerance, etc. that has certainly been a Democratic tradition for at least two decades, and by definition a liberal one. "Multiculturalism" is gay rights. Relativism is gay rights. Minority rights are gay rights. "Political correctness" is gay rights.

I agree that the Democratic party hasn't always been an umbrella that's included gays. A radical might argue that broadening the Democratic tent to include more social conservatives set back the cause of gay rights, but that's political logistics. Maybe by broadening the tent you get more people elected who can then slowly push the agenda that way.
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  #45  
Old 08-20-2011, 11:30 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Right. So, tell me about the fundies as that seems to be the source of our disagreement.
The bias there is more active and overt. It's harder to break with just exposure, although not sure what breaks it anywya.
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  #46  
Old 08-20-2011, 11:46 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post

But then at other times, a strong and clear process of shaming can be powerful too. Then you also have to look at the effect your stance is having on the other people in the room. For instance, I might put up with more from someone if their object of hatred isn't in the room. I think the first priority is to do whatever makes the most sense for the victim. Maybe they don't want to deal with a "discussion" of whether or not they are a "wetback", or "unnatural".
What kind of people do you hang out with? I know absolutely no one who talks the way you describe.
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  #47  
Old 08-21-2011, 03:20 AM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Honestly, the worst thing conservatives seem to do is to be so quick to get defensive and shut down debate. This obviously has to do with bigger differences in narrative about race/hatred/etc. But a bit more humility always helps.
And the worst thing liberals definitely do is trumpet their alleged moral superiority and attribute to "hatred," open or hidden, anyone's views when they differ from that of right-thinking people on the cause de jour.

But don't take it too hard. Please feel free to keep blowing that horn.
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Last edited by rfrobison; 08-21-2011 at 03:23 AM.. Reason: rewrote end
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  #48  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:07 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
What kind of people do you hang out with? I know absolutely no one who talks the way you describe.
lol - those are pretty rare examples, fortunately. But yes, they are people I have met. The wetback comment was actually from a librarian at a largely Hispanic school!
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  #49  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:12 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
And the worst thing liberals definitely do is trumpet their alleged moral superiority and attribute to "hatred," open or hidden, anyone's views when they differ from that of right-thinking people on the cause de jour.

But don't take it too hard. Please feel free to keep blowing that horn.
I would say that eeeeli's rhetoric has the same effect on me. But surely you see that he is passionate about his ideas. It would be good if there were a strategy he could use that would invite participation in the things he is discussing rather than the type of reaction you and I both seem to have when we read his posts. One of my suggestions was to narrow the field of discussion to a certain aspect and avoid broad generalizations and pronouncements. Otherwise we just never get past square one.
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  #50  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:20 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
And the worst thing liberals definitely do is trumpet their alleged moral superiority and attribute to "hatred," open or hidden, anyone's views when they differ from that of right-thinking people on the cause de jour.

But don't take it too hard. Please feel free to keep blowing that horn.
That's what I meant by differences in narrative, though. The liberal narrative I've been talking about assumes there is a pattern of unconscious thought that is much more prevalent, nay, existent, that conservative narratives seem to think. This would explain why liberals are always seeming to see racism where conservatives would say none exists.

As for hatred and "cause de jour", I'm not sure what you mean. I've tried to spell out as well I can what dynamics hatred would refer to. I'll be the first to admit that my definition is rather loose, but as I said, I think it kind of has to be. But that doesn't mean that what I describe with it is loose.

I mean, let's take homophobia or Islamophobia. Both have a long history, and fit directly into the pattern spelled out in the liberal narrative: out-group, cognitive bias, historical prejudice. That isn't an arbitrary critique at all. What you call "blowing that horn", I would call standing up for first principles (principles by the way I would argue are enshrined both in the constitution as written, as well as in its evolving interpretation by an increasingly enlightened America, i.e. we shouldn't discriminate based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference).
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  #51  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:22 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
lol - those are pretty rare examples, fortunately. But yes, they are people I have met. The wetback comment was actually from a librarian at a largely Hispanic school!
Well in that case I would have let her have it. I have no problem calling out crude rhetoric especially in the context of a professional uttering it.

I have a little story. I used to live in southern California. Every so often I would hear something like "I'm going to hire a Mexican to do (something around the house)". I have always recoiled at that and I have also made it my business to point out how offensive that phrase is. The correct alternative would be "I'm going to hire a worker..." What say you?
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Last edited by badhatharry; 08-21-2011 at 12:25 PM..
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  #52  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:34 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
I mean, let's take homophobia or Islamophobia. Both have a long history, and fit directly into the pattern spelled out in the liberal narrative: out-group, cognitive bias, historical prejudice. That isn't an arbitrary critique at all. What you call "blowing that horn", I would call standing up for first principles (principles by the way I would argue are enshrined both in the constitution as written, as well as in its evolving interpretation by an increasingly enlightened America, i.e. we shouldn't discriminate based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference).
This is just going round and round but I will add this...

You say : principles by the way I would argue are enshrined both in the constitution as written, as well as in its evolving interpretation by an increasingly enlightened America, i.e. we shouldn't discriminate based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference

First off there is nothing in the constitution about not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference. But even if there were it would refer only to a specific set of activities such as those which are delineated in the Civil Rights Act. The constitution says nothing about how people are supposed to think or feel, thank goodness.
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  #53  
Old 08-21-2011, 12:03 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
And the worst thing liberals definitely do is trumpet their alleged moral superiority and attribute to "hatred," open or hidden, anyone's views when they differ from that of right-thinking people on the cause de jour.

But don't take it too hard. Please feel free to keep blowing that horn.
I've disagreed with eeeeeeli plenty, but this is clearly not his point. He's as self-critical as anyone. I think he's as likely as anyone to grant suganrkang's point, that the average racist/homophobe is a product of his background. The argument is with those who would assert that it's not prejudice, it's something more significant, and if so the argument needs to be made. The efforts to discredit eeeeeeli for saying hate is bad is bizarre.

My cynical view is that people who think the attitudes about gays/race are wrong nontheless promotem them because it is electorally effective, so an actual argument about the priciples would be useful. Or, in the alternative, an actual dismissal of the views.

The reason we don't get this from the right is that a pretend culture war works in their favor, even more than on the left.
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  #54  
Old 08-21-2011, 01:34 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
This is just going round and round but I will add this...

You say : principles by the way I would argue are enshrined both in the constitution as written, as well as in its evolving interpretation by an increasingly enlightened America, i.e. we shouldn't discriminate based on race, religion, gender or sexual preference

First off there is nothing in the constitution about not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference. But even if there were it would refer only to a specific set of activities such as those which are delineated in the Civil Rights Act. The constitution says nothing about how people are supposed to think or feel, thank goodness.
Right, that's why I included the subsequent interpretations. I think a fair case can be made that there are principles in the constitution from which logically follow things like opposition to slavery, women voting, and yes, gay rights - even if they weren't spelled out at the time.

And I'm not saying people don't have a right to think anything. I'm just saying they are wrong to think that way (their thoughts are based on flawed cognition). Just like it is wrong to think that 2 +2 = 5.
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  #55  
Old 08-21-2011, 03:24 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Hate filled rhetoric possibly contributed to violence.

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Right, that's why I included the subsequent interpretations. I think a fair case can be made that there are principles in the constitution from which logically follow things like opposition to slavery, women voting, and yes, gay rights - even if they weren't spelled out at the time.

And I'm not saying people don't have a right to think anything. I'm just saying they are wrong to think that way (their thoughts are based on flawed cognition). Just like it is wrong to think that 2 +2 = 5.
Not to be too picky picky but the they tried to pass an equal rights ammendment and it failed. I'm pretty sure that it was specifically targeted to women. I wasn't too awfully political at the time but I think one of the arguments was that rights are extended to all persons via the constitution and there is no need to create an ammendment. Another bit was that if no discrimination was allowed in the case of women then they could be compelled to be drafted and serve on the battlefield. That's all I've got.
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