An Important Note to Our Valued Commenters from Bob

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Anyone who has ever used Disqus, and was familiar with the way our discussions here took shape could have foreseen that these two formats aren't interchangeable.

Right.

I seem to recall Bob having mentioned in a couple of diavlogs that he almost never came into the forum, that he only ever really kept up with the comments as they appeared in the linear view under the video. I suspect the same is true of the rest of the BhTV staff who were involved in the decision. (Which, I should say, I believe was driven mainly out of financial need; they simply didn't have the cash, I think, to pay for the work of wiring vBulletin up to the new design, so they had to go with something cheap and free. You know what they say about getting what you pay for.)

But, to your point: I think they're having trouble understanding the difficulty of the transition simply because they never were really that familiar with "the way our discussions here took shape."

Originally Posted by Ocean

People who mostly enjoyed watching the diavlogs and those who would only comment briefly on occasion will adjust to the new format without a problem. For that kind of use, the difference is minimal.

Yes. BhTV's comment threads will now reduced to the same kind of superficiality and lack of substance that abounds elsewhere on the internet. It will truly be painful to watch. Unless they change course.

Originally Posted by Ocean

But for those of us who saw the diavlogs as a point of departure for a far more interesting adventure, that of exchanging ideas with others, it's the end. It doesn't matter whether we used the forum to agree, disagree, expand, learn or "teach", the possibility of exchanging ideas was there. Not the case with Disqus.

Yes, that's exactly right.

I've told you my theory: they just didn't have the money they would have needed to keep vBulletin. That's the kind of problem that can be fixed with time, and if Bob is truly as open minded and considerate of his audience as I think he is, I think there's a good chance vBulletin might come back. Part of me worries, though, that they might have had other reasons for wanting to ditch the forum. Maybe there was too much free speech, here. Too much robust exchange of intellectual energy. Bob really made the commenters into stars with vBulletin, giving them a chance to show off their brilliance and inform us with their knowledge. We are all so much poorer, now, having lost it all.

Remember what Glenn Loury said in his last diavlog with John McWhorter? He raved about the intellectual caliber of the commenters here. I'll bet he won't be saying that after six months of Disqus.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Thanks. I do love it here, which may be just a symtom of my obsessive personality. However I have a glitch to clear up if I can. When I was signing up for disqus, somehow it gave me a screen name I did not specifically request. I hate to see badhatharry die but on the other hand she does carry a lot of baggage.

Badhat:

Go here: http://docs.disqus.com/help/77/

And change your Full Name, not your User Name. Your Full Name is the display name; changing it leaves your user name unchanged.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Brenda

I don't have any insider knowledge on how to fix your Disqus handle, but maybe other commenters could help. More likely in Disqus!

Have you noticed how much easier it is to talk over here?

[Brenda]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

... how often was it necessary to do that work of maintaining/updating the bridge between vBulletin and the videopage? When Bob first explained this, I assumed it was pretty infrequent. My impression was that redesigns were pretty rare things and that once the bridge was established for any given version of BhTV, it would be good to go for quite a while

The lack of programming support for the bridge was a constant headache. We hadn't been able to upgrade vBulletin or our CMS for years. One of the most important reasons to stay current on upgrades is security (this isn't news to you, I'm sure), and we also missed out on lots of new site features that we'd have liked to incorporate.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Badhat:

Go here: http://docs.disqus.com/help/77/

And change your Full Name, not your User Name. Your Full Name is the display name; changing it leaves your user name unchanged.

Thanks! I just knew deep down you loved badhat.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Brenda

The lack of programming support for the bridge was a constant headache. We hadn't been able to upgrade vBulletin or our CMS for years. One of the most important reasons to stay current on upgrades is security (this isn't news to you, I'm sure), and we also missed out on lots of new site features that we'd have liked to incorporate.

My husband insists on updates. I ignore the notices. He gets mad.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Thanks. I do love it here, which may be just a symtom of my obsessive personality. However I have a glitch to clear up if I can. When I was signing up for disqus, somehow it gave me a screen name I did not specifically request. I hate to see badhatharry die but on the other hand she does carry a lot of baggage.

Osmium wrote a brief post to that effect.

But anyway, in brief, you first go to your account settings in Disqus. I'm assuming you do have an account in Disqus, right? If not, you have to create one. In the account settings you have to play around with the different tabs, and you will see two kinds of names you can have: one is your username and one is your "Full Name" under "Profile". If you leave your "Full Name" blank, Disqus will use your username as your handle. But if you fill out "Full Name" with your favorite handle, that's what will show in the public forum.


Additionally, you can have more than one Disqus account if you're using a previous account for other reasons (business for example). But you have to use a different email address for the new account.

Hope that helps.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Brenda

The lack of programming support for the bridge was a constant headache. We hadn't been able to upgrade vBulletin or our CMS for years. One of the most important reasons to stay current on upgrades is security (this isn't news to you, I'm sure), and we also missed out on lots of new site features that we'd have liked to incorporate.

Sounds like it was a much bigger problem than I realized. I didn't know it was such an ongoing issue. What a dilemma you guys have, now.

I suppose it just may be this is what has to happen. Sometimes really bad things happen; this is one of them. At least we'll always be able to look back on how great it was while it lasted. For some silly reason, I think most of us thought the good times would go on forever.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Thanks! I just knew deep down you loved badhat.

Hey, when you get over there, tell 'em what BhTV used to be like.

[Brenda]

I personally find it about equally easy. But this is not a penetrating multileveled weeks-long discussion.

BTW, one thing I have noticed is how much more often Bob has been popping into the Disqussions (did I just coin that? surely not). I'd be willing to bet it's because he finds it so much easier to log in there than here in vBulletin.

Ironically, the most welcome Disqus-enabled newbie in Disqus is Bob himself (IMHO).

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Yes. BhTV's comment threads will now reduced to the same kind of superficiality and lack of substance that abounds elsewhere on the internet. It will truly be painful to watch. Unless they change course.

And to be even more blunt, there are lots of places on the internet where there is interesting material presented, talks, articles and the like. But most of us don't necessarily keep going back there because the comment section is completely unappealing. So, in a way, it is the combination of interesting material (diavlogs) presented here and the versatility of the comment section and forum that made this website unique. With an impoverished content (no regular science feature, for example), and a disgraceful comment section, well, not much to look forward to.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Sounds like it was a much bigger problem than I realized. I didn't know it was such an ongoing issue. What a dilemma you guys have, now.

I suppose it just may be this is what has to happen. Sometimes really bad things happen; this is one of them. At least we'll always be able to look back on how great it was while it lasted. For some silly reason, I think most of us thought the good times would go on forever.

No, not for ever, but for a better reason.

It's just that my immigrant personality doesn't let me give up without a fight. Or whatever. I guess I should say doesn't let me give up without trying something first!

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Brenda

I personally find it about equally easy. But this is not a penetrating multileveled weeks-long discussion.

BTW, one thing I have noticed is how much more often Bob has been popping into the Disqussions (did I just coin that? surely not). I'd be willing to bet it's because he finds it so much easier to log in there than here in vBulletin.

Ironically, the most welcome Disqus-enabled newbie in Disqus is Bob himself (IMHO).

Ridiculous. You must be kidding.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Hope that helps.

Amazing! Nice and friendly responses from both you and TwinSwords. Maybe this is like how the people felt when the Titanic was going down!

Thanks! I think I fixed it and badhatharry will live on...we'll see.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Brenda

The lack of programming support for the bridge was a constant headache. We hadn't been able to upgrade vBulletin or our CMS for years. One of the most important reasons to stay current on upgrades is security (this isn't news to you, I'm sure), and we also missed out on lots of new site features that we'd have liked to incorporate.

Like the rest of your explanations, this one rings false.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Hope that helps.

So I did all of that and then went on to the new site and there sat my old screen name with a little (edit profile) tab besides it. That takes you right to the page where you can change your name. Super easy!

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Amazing! Nice and friendly responses from both you and TwinSwords. Maybe this is like how the people felt when the Titanic was going down!

Thanks! I think I fixed it and badhatharry will live on...we'll see.

Heh.

It's our...



...coming through!

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Brenda

About what?

You must be kidding when you say that Bob Wright finds it easier to post in disqus than in vBulletin, or the bhtv forum. Is that what you are saying?

[graz]

Originally Posted by Florian

Ridiculous. You must be kidding.

Sadly, it doesn't sound like kidding. It has more the ring of shilling about it. Or maybe just unwarranted optimism. It pays to know your audience. Ignoring would be unfortunate, stringing them along is worse.

[handle]

Originally Posted by graz

Sadly, it doesn't sound like kidding. It has more the ring of shilling about it. Or maybe just unwarranted optimism. It pays to know your audience. Ignoring would be unfortunate, stringing them along is worse.

Like

[graz]

Originally Posted by handle

Like

Thumbs up to you too!

We don't need no stinkin' excuses. Either pull the plug and admit to letting it die (the real forum, that is), or commit to healing the patient. We don't need no Disquis life support. DNR.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by graz

Thumbs up to you too!

We don't need no stinkin' excuses. Either pull the plug and admit to letting it die (the real forum, that is), or commit to healing the patient. We don't need no Disquis life support. DNR.

Nice metaphor.

Imagine the "death panel" telling you:

"Okay, we'll keep you alive. But there will be some adjustment you'll have to make and some functions no longer available to you. We tried but it was too difficult. So, you won't be able to walk (bilateral amputation), or do much with your hands or arms (amputated too). Your hearing will be impaired. And the tracheostomy will only allow short phrases to be uttered. Your eyesight will be blurry and you can only use it for a few minutes at a time. But you'll be able to move your head in all directions, so you could develop some way of communicating that way. Just don't overdo it because your neck has a few herniated discs and you'll have terrible pain.

But, on the brightest side, your brain will be fully operational so that you realize how much you've lost."

And you:

"Pull the plug already!"

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by Brenda

I personally find it about equally easy. But this is not a penetrating multileveled weeks-long discussion.

BTW, one thing I have noticed is how much more often Bob has been popping into the Disqussions (did I just coin that? surely not). I'd be willing to bet it's because he finds it so much easier to log in there than here in vBulletin.

Ironically, the most welcome Disqus-enabled newbie in Disqus is Bob himself (IMHO).

Just for the record, I do not. I tried to post in the new threads, couldn't get a name I liked, and then got error messages to my efforts to post that led to double posts. This has discouraged me from posting. I might be more anxious to deal with this except there are no substantive posts to the most recent diavlogs, and I admit I'm usually a follower. Plus I know from past disqus experience that replies soon become problematic due to the length of posts and I admit I'm a frequent offender when it comes to long posts. (Insert badhat slams here, which I'm sick of, but whatever.)

I read TNC's blog a lot and have friends who post there, but the format has prevented me from joining in, and even so I think his frequent posts and discussion is not analogous to the efforts here to have dialogue of multiple topics within diavlogs. That's really not possible, IMO, within disqus.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by Robert Wright

Let me reiterate that we're making this change reluctantly but for various well-considered reasons, chief among them the cost and hassle of keeping vBulletin linked to our diavlog pages so that comments appear under the video player.

I guess the mission is to make bloggingheads a going concern, so that we can restore vBulletin to its rightful status. It's a small price to pay.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

I guess the mission is to make bloggingheads a going concern, so that we can restore vBulletin to its rightful status. It's a small price to pay.

That's an interesting interpretation of what Bob said.

[graz]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

That's an interesting interpretation of what Bob said.

Do you mean interesting as in not at all what Bob said? As in complete contradiction to Bob stating that even if Disqus falls short, vBulletin would not likely be the primary support system? That kind of interesting?

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by graz

Do you mean interesting as in not at all what Bob said? As in complete contradiction to Bob stating that even if Disqus falls short, vBulletin would not likely be the primary support system? That kind of interesting?

It really is pretty dismal out there on the disqus side. But it could evolve, I suppose. Don't ask me how.

I wasn't fully aware of how great vBulletin is because I'm just not that kind of techy guy. This has been an education.

But bottom line is that Bob has no obligation to provide anything. That's what happens with free stuff. If he and his staff have decided that this is the best course for the site, then so be it.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

It really is pretty dismal out there on the disqus side. But it could evolve, I suppose. Don't ask me how.

I wasn't fully aware of how great vBulletin is because I'm just not that kind of techy guy. This has been an education.

But bottom line is that Bob has no obligation to provide anything. That's what happens with free stuff. If he and his staff have decided that this is the best course for the site, then so be it.

It is not going to evolve into something better. It is just going to get worse. Why should anyone waste time commenting on intelligent diavlogs when it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with other commenters?

I agree that Bob Wright has no obligation to provide anything. But no one has an obligation to comment either. You get what you pay for.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by Florian

It is not going to evolve into something better. It is just going to get worse. Why should anyone waste time commenting on intelligent diavlogs when it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with other commenters?

I agree that Bob Wright has no obligation to provide anything. But no one has an obligation to comment either. You get what you pay for.

I went to my secular humanist group this morning. And I was thinking how Disqus somehow emulates that kind of interaction.

At the meeting there was an invited guest who gave his talk about separation of church and state. Then there was a period of Q&A. A microphone is passed around to the audience and people have the chance to ask questions or make comments. One at a time, in an organized fashion. If someone says something interesting and others would like to comment or ask questions or continue that thread, there's very little chance, since the microphone keeps moving on to others with their own topics and questions. At the end of the meeting, of course, you listened, perhaps learned something, perhaps were able to say or ask a thing or two. But there's no depth. Just like in Disqus.

Compare that to a situation where there's a guest, and then an open forum where people can continue the discussion, or break up in groups if they want to. They can participate in one discussion and then move on to another, and this keeps going for at least a couple of days. People can go read something related and come back to the group with new points, arguments or questions. And in between there are breaks, friendly talk, refreshments, music at times, humor, whathaveyou. Well, that's vBulletin forum!

Ah, good old times!

When is the burial taking place?

[Wonderment]

When is the burial taking place?

Never. There will be no closure.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Florian

I agree that Bob Wright has no obligation to provide anything. But no one has an obligation to comment either. You get what you pay for.

So it makes me wonder...

What benefit did Bob get from the commenting crowd ? I suppose there was some status benefit. He had a large group of regular commenters and visitors. That showed he is respected by a segment of the public. I don't know how it compares to other internet forums but I suppose it was larger than most and less than many. So he could go to meetings and parties and talk about his site with pride. The audience, as evidenced by the active commenters, was probably appealing to the folks who appeared in the diavlogs, so that gave them incentive to appear and gave Bob currency amongst the intelligentsia.

So would all the talk of mutiny and promises to quit the forum have any affect on Bob?

The way I see it, he is fond of what he did here and will be sorry to see it go. But despite that, the downside exceeds the benefit. He's trying to salvage something by providing this venue and changing the site and he has called us valued commenters. At this point it seems that he is encouraging people to participate in the new venue so that the site will seem lively and well visited. We who have benefited from the old forum might feel some obligation to pay it back to Bob because he never before has asked for anything and we benefited.

In a while the old venue will be forgotten and the whole thing will be much, much easier for the administrators.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Ocean

I went to my secular humanist group this morning. And I was thinking how Disqus somehow emulates that kind of interaction.

At the meeting there was an invited guest who gave his talk about separation of church and state. Then there was a period of Q&A. A microphone is passed around to the audience and people have the chance to ask questions or make comments. One at a time, in an organized fashion. If someone says something interesting and others would like to comment or ask questions or continue that thread, there's very little chance, since the microphone keeps moving on to others with their own topics and questions. At the end of the meeting, of course, you listened, perhaps learned something, perhaps were able to say or ask a thing or two. But there's no depth. Just like in Disqus.

Sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous. The inspiration for Disqus perhaps?

Compare that to a situation where there's a guest, and then an open forum where people can continue the discussion, or break up in groups if they want to. They can participate in one discussion and then move on to another, and this keeps going for at least a couple of days. People can go read something related and come back to the group with new points, arguments or questions. And in between there are breaks, friendly talk, refreshments, music at times, humor, whathaveyou. Well, that's vBulletin forum!

Yes, I think that is a good summary of what distinguishes a vBulletin forum from the usual internet forum, with its anonymous alcoholics and other monomaniacs.

Ah, good old times!

When is the burial taking place?

All too soon.

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

So it makes me wonder...

What benefit did Bob get from the commenting crowd ? I suppose there was some status benefit. He had a large group of regular commenters and visitors. That showed he is respected by a segment of the public. I don't know how it compares to other internet forums but I suppose it was larger than most and less than many. So he could go to meetings and parties and talk about his site with pride.

I think this is right, plus the whole "diverse voices" thing, which is why he loved the conservatives, especially the female conservatives.

Annoying as that is (IMO), a good forum is rare enough these days that I valued it quite a lot and would have paid for it. Oh, well, they clearly don't care.

I hate the new Disqus thing, but will keep trying.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by stephanie

I think this is right, plus the whole "diverse voices" thing, which is why he loved the conservatives, especially the female conservatives.

here we go again. What evidence is there that Bob loved conservatives? especially female ones? And why would the whole "diverse voices" thing result in Bob loving conservatives, particularly female conservatives?

and just one more itty thing, annoying as what is?

Quoting stephanie: Annoying as that is (IMO),

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

here we go again. What evidence is there that Bob loved conservatives? especially female ones? And why would the whole "diverse voices" thing result in Bob loving conservatives, particularly female conservatives?

To have diversity, since there seemed to be a perception that there were fewer conservatives at one time.

But I will admit that you and I probably have different perceptions of some of the issues involved and will drop it.

[Unit]

Is it just me or the feed is broken?

http://feeds.feedburner.com/bloggingheads

[jimM47]

Yep. It looks broken. It was probably generated by the old Content Management System (CMS), and the feeds in the new CMS haven't been set up yet.

I am guessing they should ultimately appear at http://bloggingheads.tv/?feed=rss2 but right now that it showing only the default info for the site.

[ledocs]

I have a suggestion, namely that commenters here look into finding a new webhost that uses vbulletin and that is either free or not very costly, something that we could keep going for a modest subscription fee. This may not be possible, but I have been participating in a pro basketball forum for about fifteen years that has retained continuity under three different hosts, all of them free. The software we currently use is not nearly as good as vbulletin, however. It's crap.

Here is a specific suggestion. We might move to the Well, which is not free, but is not expensive either. I don't know if they use vbulletin. I was a member from about 1997-2002. But in any event, there is no reason that people who constitute a community for discussion should have to move backwards or dissolve. I have not looked at disqus, but I can tell from the list of users who have and who find it unserviceable that it will, in fact, be unserviceable.

There is something to be said for the therapeutic value of the fee.

On an unrelated note, I thought David Brooks's recent column about the vanishing liberal was quite good, I agree with it. This is the same line of thinking promulgated by Bob's pal, Robert Frank.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/op...berals.html?hp

[look]

Originally Posted by ledocs

I have a suggestion, namely that commenters here look into finding a new webhost that uses vbulletin and that is either free or not very costly, something that we could keep going for a modest subscription fee. This may not be possible, but I have been participating in a pro basketball forum for about fifteen years that has retained continuity under three different hosts, all of them free. The software we currently use is not nearly as good as vbulletin, however. It's crap.

Here is a specific suggestion. We might move to the Well, which is not free, but is not expensive either. I don't know if they use vbulletin. I was a member from about 1997-2002. But in any event, there is no reason that people who constitute a community for discussion should have to move backwards or dissolve. I have not looked at disqus, but I can tell from the list of users who have and who find it unserviceable that it will, in fact, be unserviceable.

There is something to be said for the therapeutic value of the fee.

On an unrelated note, I thought David Brooks's recent column about the vanishing liberal was quite good, I agree with it. This is the same line of thinking promulgated by Bob's pal, Robert Frank.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/op...berals.html?hp

Easy method to keep track of Disqus threads:

If you scroll down to 'edit profile' you can select for all posts, in threads that you've made at least one post in, to be sent to your email. I just leave a windows tab open with my my email logged in, and the count changes as the emails build up. Then you can link directly from any emailed post back to the forum to reply.

[graz]

First.