Commenter Klatch: Dunkirk, Part Two (Robert Wright & Aryeh Cohen-Wade)

[Bloggingheads]

[TwinSwords]

It sounds like Wonderment may have been right in his initial assessment, after Dunkirk 1, that the future isn't as bleak as we feared. Whatever form BhTV takes, I look forward to it. And more Bob is going to be a good thing. To be honest, I got hooked on BhTV when it was just Bob and Mickey. I actually kind of missed the frequency of Bob's appearances once BhTV changed -- although I loved the variety that followed, too.

About sustaining traffic as a site that caters to both the left and the deranged cult that occupies the right in American politics: one thing that I noticed right away after BhTV was launched was that there was an almost across the board boycott of links to BhTV from the liberal blogs. Back then, in the middle of the Bush Dystopia, the liberal blogs had a policy of never linking to the right (because we didn't want to give them traffic or revenue), and I think this policy came to include BhTV, probably mainly because of Mickey's presence. This was a big mistake, because over these last five years BhTV has been a great platform for liberal voices that, at least until MSNBC, simply don't get heard in the conventional conservative/corporate media.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

It sounds like Wonderment may have been right in his initial assessment, after Dunkirk 1, that the future isn't as bleak as we feared. Whatever form BhTV takes, I look forward to it. And more Bob is going to be a good thing. To be honest, I got hooked on BhTV when it was just Bob and Mickey. I actually kind of missed the frequency of Bob's appearances once BhTV changed -- although I loved the variety that followed, too.

About sustaining traffic as a site that caters to both the left and the deranged cult that occupies the right in American politics: one thing that I noticed right away after BhTV was launched was that there was an almost across the board boycott of links to BhTV from the liberal blogs. Back then, in the middle of the Bush Dystopia, the liberal blogs had a policy of never linking to the right (because we didn't want to give them traffic or revenue), and I think this policy came to include BhTV, probably mainly because of Mickey's presence. This was a big mistake, because over these last five years BhTV has been a great platform for liberal voices that, at least until MSNBC, simply don't get heard in the conventional conservative/corporate media.

It is interesting how you are unable to contrast the initial claim of which is the "deranged cult" with how people are acting in the second paragraph.

[Ocean]

You're very welcome, Bob.

[Ocean]

Thank you both for clarifying the multiple questions we had a few days ago.

I wish you could keep vBulletin. It will be hard to adapt to a new format. And there may be, as you well said, other issues that may be a real obstacle for some of us.

We'll throw a farewell party for you, Aryeh, and we'll be happy to throw a welcome one when you're back!

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Ocean

I wish you could keep vBulletin. It will be hard to adapt to a new format. And there may be, as you well said, other issues that may be a real obstacle for some of us.

Agreed wholeheartedly. At a minimum, I would say they should not ditch vBulletin until they absolutely have to -- i.e., until they reach that point when they are forced to upgrade the bridge between their CMS and vBulletin.

There are a lot of costs associated with upgrades and therefore huge incentives to implement a system and then run it as leanly as possible for as long as possible; that's how you maximize value. Businesses can't look at infrastructure investments the way consumers look at personal expenses. As a consumer, I might want to upgrade my iPhone or personal computer much more often than corporations can afford to upgrade their systems. So, I'd hope BhTV could just keep running their existing CMS and vBulletin as is for as long as possible to avoid the costs and other disruptions associated with upgrades.

[Wonderment]

Bob, You definitely need to talk to a professional fundraiser (maybe Ohcomeon) because this was among the worst fundraising pitches I've ever heard (and I've heard some doozies).

As someone money-raising-challenged myself, I can empathize, but also, in the spirit of tough love, I recommend the following 9-9-9 DON'TS:

1) Don't take Sonata or other sleep meds prior to your pitch for two reasons: a) diminished capacity on your part; b) contagion of fatigue and listlessness spreading to the potential donors.

2) Don't make references to your Swedish masseuse.

3) Don't make references to chumminess with the authors of infamously failed investment guides ("Dow 36000: The New Strategy for Profiting From the Coming Rise in the Stock Market").

4) Don't predict donors will surely fail to meet the modest target goal while directing them to the obscure donor button.

5) Don't have an obscure donor button that cannot be found without Google Maps, a Tibetan Sherpa guide and a personal satellite.

6) Don't spend 5-10 minutes discouraging offers to donate as hopeless and ridiculously inadequate.

7) Don't promote your product as "pretty good lately" and "not poisonous."

8) Don't make self-deprecating jokes about how poorly financially managed and on the verge of bankruptcy your company has been heretofore.

9) Don't quote Biblical verses about heaping burning coals on commenters' heads, especially with a dog howling and barking in the background.

[graz]

Originally Posted by Wonderment

Bob, You definitely need to talk to a professional fundraiser (maybe Ohcomeon) because this was among the worst fundraising pitches I've ever heard (and I've heard some doozies).

As someone money-raising-challenged myself, I can empathize, but also, in the spirit of tough love, I recommend the following 9-9-9 DON'TS:

1) Don't take Sonata or other sleep meds prior to your pitch for two reasons: a) diminished capacity on your part; b) contagion of fatigue and listlessness spreading to the potential donors.

2) Don't make references to your Swedish masseuse.

3) Don't make references to chumminess with the authors of infamously failed investment guides ("Dow 36000: The New Strategy for Profiting From the Coming Rise in the Stock Market").

4) Don't predict donors will surely fail to meet the modest target goal while directing them to the obscure donor button.

5) Don't have an obscure donor button that cannot be found without Google Maps, a Tibetan Sherpa guide and a personal satellite.

6) Don't spend 5-10 minutes discouraging offers to donate as hopeless and ridiculously inadequate.

7) Don't promote your product as "pretty good lately" and "not poisonous."

8) Don't make self-deprecating jokes about how poorly financially managed and on the verge of bankruptcy your company has been heretofore.

9) Don't quote Biblical verses about heaping burning coals on commenters' heads, especially with a dog howling and barking in the background.

That's all deliciously funny, but also sadly true.
Aryeh's closing is telling when he suggests doubt about returning. With Bob in charge ... Who needs a plan? ...
Maybe Bob can lay claim to a revamped mantra from the late Al Davis:
Just Wing It Baby.
Who needs or understands science dv's anyway? International politics, meh.

Pitch to prospective heads: You guys do all the work, and by the way, follow my dictates for a winning dv method/conversational parameters ... hey it hasn't made money before ... but now is later ... and commenters ... don't be assholes ... over and out.

[Unit]

One advantage to playing match-maker and have two people (other than Bob) with common interests record a diavlog is that, if they in turn are bloggers or have a presence on the web somewhere, then they might bring their followers to the site.

[Unit]

One thing I did notice is the very low rate of new forum commenters over time.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Why isn't this diavlog visible to me?

[Wonderment]

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator

Why isn't this diavlog visible to me?

Vast left-wing conspiracy.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Its available now. The cons to leaving Vb software seem a lot more numerous than the pros. Seems to me that the better solution is to not cross post the comments under the diavlog. That way, the software remains pretty cheap.

[jimM47]

SlashCode, the free open source software used by Slashdot.org, has many of the same features as vBulletin (more, but you can turn them off) and you might be able to get an open source developer to volunteer a solution to integrating it into the main page. (Though, actually, take a look at a slashdot comments page: you might just be able to put it at the end of a diavlog with no changes.) May be something to spend half an hour looking into at least.

[Mr. Morden]

I don't know exactly what Bob should do if the $4000 is raised, but it should definitely involve drunk diavlogging:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/402...6:17&out=36:31

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by Wonderment

Bob, You definitely need to talk to a professional fundraiser (maybe Ohcomeon) because this was among the worst fundraising pitches I've ever heard (and I've heard some doozies).

As someone money-raising-challenged myself, I can empathize, but also, in the spirit of tough love, I recommend the following 9-9-9 DON'TS:

1) Don't take Sonata or other sleep meds prior to your pitch for two reasons: a) diminished capacity on your part; b) contagion of fatigue and listlessness spreading to the potential donors.

2) Don't make references to your Swedish masseuse.

3) Don't make references to chumminess with the authors of infamously failed investment guides ("Dow 36000: The New Strategy for Profiting From the Coming Rise in the Stock Market").

4) Don't predict donors will surely fail to meet the modest target goal while directing them to the obscure donor button.

5) Don't have an obscure donor button that cannot be found without Google Maps, a Tibetan Sherpa guide and a personal satellite.

6) Don't spend 5-10 minutes discouraging offers to donate as hopeless and ridiculously inadequate.

7) Don't promote your product as "pretty good lately" and "not poisonous."

8) Don't make self-deprecating jokes about how poorly financially managed and on the verge of bankruptcy your company has been heretofore.

9) Don't quote Biblical verses about heaping burning coals on commenters' heads, especially with a dog howling and barking in the background.

Wow, good analysis!

[Ocean]

The news about the possible demise of Science Saturday was so traumatic that I completely forgot about it when I wrote my previous comments.

Bob, you have to reconsider this. There are many, many of us who came here primarily for the Science diavlogs. It would be a major loss if you stop having them. It's already been painful enough when you skip a Saturday here and there.

I mean, the real danger is that we'll have to get a life and forget about BhTV altogether.

I'm half joking, but really disappointed that we would lose that weekly feature.

[Chesapeake]

Agree, Science Saturday should stay. How much can that cost? You do need some diversity of content beyond politics and this feeds the "a little bit highbrow" (Bob's approximate words in Dunkirk I) tone of the site.

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Thank you both for clarifying the multiple questions we had a few days ago.

I wish you could keep vBulletin. It will be hard to adapt to a new format. And there may be, as you well said, other issues that may be a real obstacle for some of us.

Am I the only one who doesn't especially like vbulletin? I find the threaded and hybrid views disorienting, but the linear mode makes it unclear who is responding to what unless they quote.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Am I the only one who doesn't especially like vbulletin? I find the threaded and hybrid views disorienting, but the linear mode makes it unclear who is responding to what unless they quote.

It's better than DISQUS by a very long margin when the threads get longer than a couple of dozen posts. I participate in a small group blog and whenever we get a thread with more than twenty or so replies it becomes increasingly difficult to find the leading edge of a conversation - and if the thread forks it's a nightmare.

I can't think of anything I've seen elsewhere that's even comparable to vBulletin (Phorum probably comes closest) in terms of managing large, complex discussions online. I'm not sure what you find disorienting about the threaded and hybrid views - in my opinion the only way to consistently make sense of the discussions here is by use of the hybrid view, which not only shows the specific post and anything to which it might be a reply, but also makes prior context easy to determine.

[thouartgob]

Originally Posted by jimM47

SlashCode, the free open source software used by Slashdot.org, has many of the same features as vBulletin (more, but you can turn them off) and you might be able to get an open source developer to volunteer a solution to integrating it into the main page. (Though, actually, take a look at a slashdot comments page: you might just be able to put it at the end of a diavlog with no changes.) May be something to spend half an hour looking into at least.

I want to second this. The slashdot board is much better and as is said here it doesn't need the same level of interconnection between the board software and the CMS ( Content Management System ).

[thouartgob]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Am I the only one who doesn't especially like vbulletin? I find the threaded and hybrid views disorienting, but the linear mode makes it unclear who is responding to what unless they quote.

I agree the software has a bit of a split personality that tends to let posts, over a certain number in a thread, fall through the cracks. You really need 2 browser windows open at the same time and enjoy clicking on the "Next>" link a lot.

JimM47 had a good idea about the slashdot software. It is more consistent and can be more easily integrated into the front page.

slashdot.org

That or something like it.

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Am I the only one who doesn't especially like vbulletin? I find the threaded and hybrid views disorienting, but the linear mode makes it unclear who is responding to what unless they quote.

People should just quote!

Seriously, I think there's some disconnect between those who were used to it in the threaded forum and newer people who seem more likely to assume that linear is used (or maybe that's just me, since the forums I was familiar with before this used linear and I've never seen the point of threaded when the topics are limited to particular diavlogs).

[Simon Willard]

I really, really want to see Bob eat one page from his book "Nonzero". That would be the page describing the Prisoner's Dilemma -- the only page with any real quantitative content -- where the payoff matrix values are given incorrectly.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by thouartgob

I agree the software has a bit of a split personality that tends to let posts, over a certain number in a thread, fall through the cracks. You really need 2 browser windows open at the same time and enjoy clicking on the "Next>" link a lot.

JimM47 had a good idea about the slashdot software. It is more consistent and can be more easily integrated into the front page.

slashdot.org

That or something like it.

I guess I'm going to have to pay some attention to slashdot.

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

I can't think of anything I've seen elsewhere that's even comparable to vBulletin (Phorum probably comes closest) in terms of managing large, complex discussions online. I'm not sure what you find disorienting about the threaded and hybrid views - in my opinion the only way to consistently make sense of the discussions here is by use of the hybrid view, which not only shows the specific post and anything to which it might be a reply, but also makes prior context easy to determine.

This may simply be a misunderstanding on my part, but in threaded or hybrid, it takes me forever to figure out which posts are new since the last time I checked in, and given that my day consists of a lot of five minute windows, this mode means I spend all of my alloted time figuring out what's new, and have little left to read and/or respond.

[thouartgob]

Despite some complaints about losing this or that I think that resetting the situation might make it easier to regrow the site in a more consistent and financially stable way.

I think the Slate thing is interesting. They have their own podcasting thing going on so this would kind of be separate section and relatively unique. I like Slate's political gabfest quite a bit and the Slate-ish contrariness, while annoying at times, does provide a decent chance at keeping the bhtv content more ideologically equitable.

A couple of things sprang to mind when it comes to the hardware end of things. I assume this was thought of but if keeping things simple and robust with the video is so important why not ship a cheap tablet to the principals instead of relying on mac/pc/webcam combo ? You are stuck with a fixed focal length ( no zoom ) but just think of the tablet as a videophone with the attendant ease of use of such an appliance.

As for the regular diavloggers coming up with either their own topics or just links to when certain discussions start ... seems like a great idea (don't take it personally Aryeh, this is just business ).

One thing that I am not to sure about but I assume will be the same is dingalink creation. I take it Aryeh used the same system we use but if there was an "app" (web or otherwise) that made it even easier to scrub through and find appropriate timecodes that would reduce the time needed to create the dingalinks.

just spit-balling here of course.

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by miceelf

This may simply be a misunderstanding on my part, but in threaded or hybrid, it takes me forever to figure out which posts are new since the last time I checked in, and given that my day consists of a lot of five minute windows, this mode means I spend all of my alloted time figuring out what's new, and have little left to read and/or respond.

Exactly why I never use it.

[thouartgob]

Originally Posted by AemJeff

I guess I'm going to have to pay some attention to slashdot.

I was shocked myself because for years slashdot didn't have a particularly useful commenting system. They had good intentions when it came to filtering but it was a bit piecemeal. Now it just seems to work better. I don't know how it will work with some of the more Olympian threads that can occur on this board though

[badhatharry]

Hearing Bob talk about the appropriate response that should be issued to fly by night commenters whose sole intent is disruption didn't ring true at all. I haven't experienced these types lately, at all.

Of course, partisan barbs are everywhere but that is nothing new.

And just a technical but...BHtv is coming up fine on Internet Explorer but doesn't completely load on Firefox.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by miceelf

This may simply be a misunderstanding on my part, but in threaded or hybrid, it takes me forever to figure out which posts are new since the last time I checked in, and given that my day consists of a lot of five minute windows, this mode means I spend all of my alloted time figuring out what's new, and have little left to read and/or respond.

Originally Posted by stephanie

Exactly why I never use it.

In the Threaded Mode, new posts have green icons; visited threads are gray, as you can barely see in this tiny image (vBulletin squeezed it down when I uploaded it):



This can be a bit tricky, because what's considered "visited" is based on which posts were existing the last time you opened the thread. So if you open a thread but don't read all the green posts, and then come back later, they will no longer be green. So, if you really want to catch everything, you have to either read all green posts each time you open a thread, or, if for some reason you can't (like because you only have five minutes at a time) you can switch over to the linear view to see all the newer posts, and then switch back to threaded once you have caught up.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by stephanie

People should just quote!

People should, but they don't, and we'll never be able to get 100% compliance with what we consider the "right" way to use the forum software. The advantage to threaded or hybrid is that you don't depend on everyone behaving correctly; you can tell who's replying to whom whether they QUOTE or not.

Originally Posted by stephanie

Seriously, I think there's some disconnect between those who were used to it in the threaded forum and newer people who seem more likely to assume that linear is used (or maybe that's just me, since the forums I was familiar with before this used linear

At first I insisted on linear, too, but eventually I came to appreciate the threaded mode.

Originally Posted by stephanie

and I've never seen the point of threaded when the topics are limited to particular diavlogs).

Well, I'm not sure what you mean, because I know you already know what I'm about to say: The point of the threaded view is that it allows you to see exactly who is responding to whom; it allows you to follow the branches of conversation in a way that really isn't possible with the linear view. I guess you probably mean that this just isn't a very good or particularly compelling point.

I do wonder what the breakdown is: how many use linear and how many use hybrid or threaded.

(BTW: I have to use linear on my iPhone; screen is too tiny for threaded.)

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

In the Threaded Mode, new posts have green icons; visited threads are gray, as you can barely see in this tiny image (vBulletin squeezed it down when I uploaded it...
This can be a bit tricky, because what's considered "visited" is based on which posts were existing the last time you opened the thread. So if you open a thread but don't read all the green posts, and then come back later, they will no longer be green. So, if you really want to catch everything, you have to either read all green posts each time you open a thread, or, if for some reason you can't (like because you only have five minutes at a time) you can switch over to the linear view to see all the newer posts, and then switch back to threaded once you have caught up.

Yes, this is practically speaking what makes trying to find what is new a time consuming process. There's a lot of scrolling and scanning. And like I said, I have 3-7 minute windows. (alert and or obsessive observers might note that the bulk of my posting happens shortly before the top of the hour).

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Wow, good analysis!

Yeah, those were good points, and funny. But this came up because Bob was responding to some of the comments made on Dunkirk 1, and trying to point out that he doesn't believe you can run a business with ~$350,000 in annual costs from a tip jar. His challenge was for commenters to come up with FIVE PERCENT of a quarter's operating costs, and as much as anything he seemed to believe even that modest goal would be hard to reach.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by miceelf

Yes, this is practically speaking what makes trying to find what is new a time consuming process. There's a lot of scrolling and scanning. And like I said, I have 3-7 minute windows. (alert and or obsessive observers might note that the bulk of my posting happens shortly before the top of the hour).

:-D

Yeah. I know what you mean. I used to check in from work from time to time, but I almost never do anymore because whole threads would get marked "read" and when I'm working I don't have time to read 20-60 posts at a time.

Which reminds me, I have a meeting at 1:00...

Cheers!

[stephanie]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

People should, but they don't, and we'll never be able to get 100% compliance with what we consider the "right" way to use the forum software. The advantage to threaded or hybrid is that you don't depend on everyone behaving correctly; you can tell who's replying to whom whether they QUOTE or not.

I don't care that much, so I hope it doesn't seem otherwise, but I disagree. I think part of the problem is that there are two (three, I suppose) ways of doing it, so people can post without considering that others don't share their preferred way.

If it was all threaded (ugh as I think that is) or all linear, then there'd be less of a disconnect, because people would be seeing it the same way and would be forced to adapt to whatever was chosen.

I missed the discussion on what they are doing re forum software -- are they talking about just having Disqus comments under the diavlogs? If so, that's a shame. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about forum software to make a recommendation.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean, because I know you already know what I'm about to say: The point of the threaded view is that it allows you to see exactly who is responding to whom; it allows you to follow the branches of conversation in a way that really isn't possible with the linear view. I guess you probably mean that this just isn't a very good or particularly compelling point.

If it's all linear, people have to do that by quoting, which is much clearer. The "benefit" of threaded just seems to be the division of the conversation into different threads, and I see that as a negative, not a positive. The way my mind works, at least, it makes more sense to read based on when comments are posted, especially since as it is lots of people respond to multiple threads in one post and may not even note the subthread header or bother changing it. Linear seems to require much less from the user. Indeed, if we all saw the posts in the same order the failure to quote wouldn't cause as much confusion. As it is, I get comments on something I posted days ago without a quote, and if I happen to think it might be directed to me and feel motivated enough to check, that's simply happenstance.

But I agree that people are going to have different preferences and a lot of it is just what you are used to. I think it would work better if we all had the same view, however.

I do wonder what the breakdown is: how many use linear and how many use hybrid or threaded.

Me too.

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

:-D

Yeah. I know what you mean. I used to check in from work from time to time, but I almost never do anymore because whole threads would get marked "read" and when I'm working I don't have time to read 20-60 posts at a time.

Yes, this. I prefer to check at work; threading would make it impractical. I wonder what the breakdown between employed vs (part time non-employed/flexibly/student/misc) is for threaded vs. linear.

[stephanie]

Okay, I admit I'm possibly just an idiot, but I still don't see where to make a donation, and it's a little hard to promote donations when you are also telling us that next month they will be tax deductible, but aren't yet. It's not a fair contest.

In the holiday spirit, though, I'd be happy to make a donation (and wouldn't turn down an autographed book, even a book I already have), if I could find the button.

[stephanie]

Posted too soon. I found it, but it's only on the page where the videos show up. Bottom right as stated.

Ideally, it should be on the top or visibly on the side and on the forum page as well.

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by stephanie

Posted too soon. I found it, but it's only on the page where the videos show up. Bottom right as stated.

Ideally, it should be on the top or visibly on the side and on the forum page as well.

YOu think reading the forums would make people feel an inspiration of generosity that would require instant gratification? fascinating.

;-)