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  #1  
Old 05-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

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  #2  
Old 05-02-2009, 05:25 PM
Nate Nate is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

No Science Saturday?

Last edited by Nate; 05-02-2009 at 05:28 PM..
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2009, 08:44 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Very informative and hence useful DV. Really appreciate UN Plaza, this even though the subject (the ever-more screwed up state of the world) is inherently depressing.

Ignorance is not really all that conducive to any kind of genuine bliss. Hence my vote for enshrining UN Plaza as a BHTV perpetual player.

The following comment is off-topic:
(Kind of wish BHTV could blow off "This Week in Blogs," though. Although I do like and appreciate Bill Scher, TWIB has become boring as dirt and has outlived its usefulness. Far better if Scher could drag in one real star among bloggers each week such as, say, Glenn Greenwald, etc.)

Thanks to both Mark and Erin.

EW

Last edited by Eastwest; 05-02-2009 at 08:50 PM..
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2009, 03:40 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwest View Post
Very informative and hence useful DV. Really appreciate UN Plaza, this even though the subject (the ever-more screwed up state of the world) is inherently depressing.
Second that, although Erin did make me feel somewhat optimistic, if only because she was able to present so clearly and calmly that (a) there are no quick fixes, least of all military ones, and (b) there is a plausible-sounding path towards improvement of the situation.

Quote:
Ignorance is not really all that conducive to any kind of genuine bliss. Hence my vote for enshrining UN Plaza as a BHTV perpetual player.
I might not have put it that poetically, but I do thoroughly appreciate these sorts of reports from the field. Another good get and good interview by Mark, and sincere thanks to Erin for doing what she does.

Quote:

The following comment is off-topic:
(Kind of wish BHTV could blow off "This Week in Blogs," though. Although I do like and appreciate Bill Scher, TWIB has become boring as dirt and has outlived its usefulness. Far better if Scher could drag in one real star among bloggers each week such as, say, Glenn Greenwald, etc.)
That's a really good suggestion, although I'd modify it slightly to include, say, every other week, unknown/up-and-coming bloggers. For a site called Bloggingheads.tv, we have been kind of short of new blood in that area. Not that I at all mind hearing from other kinds of people, but if we're going to have a regular feature on blogs and bloggers, there are ways to improve it.
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  #5  
Old 05-11-2009, 10:46 AM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Something that bugs me that I forgot to mention: if you're claiming that the West wants to be a puppet-master of countries like Kosovo or Somalia that have no natural resources, no GDP, no political or military heft, and enormous ongoing costs then you need to think a little harder about international politics. That world view is more Manichean and less coherent than the Bush administration's ever was.
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  #6  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
Something that bugs me that I forgot to mention: if you're claiming that the West wants to be a puppet-master of countries like Kosovo or Somalia that have no natural resources, no GDP, no political or military heft, and enormous ongoing costs then you need to think a little harder about international politics. That world view is more Manichean and less coherent than the Bush administration's ever was.
So, we ought to let people suffer under terrible regimes unless we can exploit their natural resources? That's not a very humane argument. Everything you said about Somalia is correct, but that doesn't mean that we ought to let a horrible Islamist group come to power. If Europe had no resources, would it have been permissible to permit the Holocaust to persist?
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  #7  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:56 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cognitive madisonian View Post
So, we ought to let people suffer under terrible regimes unless we can exploit their natural resources? That's not a very humane argument. Everything you said about Somalia is correct, but that doesn't mean that we ought to let a horrible Islamist group come to power. If Europe had no resources, would it have been permissible to permit the Holocaust to persist?
You need to re-read what you quoted because it says almost exactly the opposite of what you think it does
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  #8  
Old 05-17-2009, 09:37 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampl View Post
You need to re-read what you quoted because it says almost exactly the opposite of what you think it does
Yes, it does. Hmmm...I need to find an excuse for that. I'll blame it on Houston losing.
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  #9  
Old 05-02-2009, 11:23 PM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Thanks to both Mark and Erin, especially in light of the technical problems they faced.

A really informative diavlog on a country that is rarely covered in any detail.
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  #10  
Old 05-04-2009, 09:13 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

This diavlog series always makes me guilty I don't give more.

Last edited by Starwatcher162536; 05-05-2009 at 12:20 AM..
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  #11  
Old 05-06-2009, 04:52 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Being something of a TNR fanboy I was excited to see Goldberg make it into the pages of TNR's site. It's about Sri Lanka and long-story-short the Obama administration has been handling it in a way pleasing to HR advocates
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:01 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Perfect response by Obama and Rice, and a good explanation of the situation by Mark.

However, the US and Obama cannot maintain much credibility on human rights while slaughtering civilians in Afghanistan.

Obama's global honeymoon apparently includes a pass on a lot of civilian bodies in his favorite war, but if they increase, the US will soon be subject to the same criticism for human rights hypocrisy that's familiar from the Bush era (and other administrations, Dem and Repub.)
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  #13  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:49 PM
Lyle
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

I disagree Wonderment. Nobody really cares about Afghan/Taliban civilians. They're comparable to killed German civilians during World War II. Nobody really cares.
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  #14  
Old 05-06-2009, 06:29 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

I would agree with you that the individual Afghani and Pakistani citizens are of little to no concern to the policy makers but the cumulative affect that their deaths have on the ability to carry out successful policy is of considerable concern to those that must design and pursue policy in that area of the world. It is also of concern to the boots on the ground; as anything that is likely to increase hostility towards themselves is seen as detrimental to their prospects of returning in one piece and outside a body bag.
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Nobody really cares.
I care, and so should you.
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Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2009, 12:51 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Well of course I don't want them to be killed or mutilated. I want them to live and enjoy their lives. However, the Taliban are backwards and gave succor to Al Qaeda, which means until they grow up they are our enemies and we will kill them if we have to.

Only the truly ignorant or stupid Afghan/Pakistani thinks the U.S. is out to get them. Like the Taliban value these peoples' live at all.

That's my point really. As long as they don't value their own lives, nobody around the world will truly give a damn.
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  #17  
Old 05-06-2009, 06:33 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
This diavlog series always makes me guilty I don't give more.
And I that I never watch these . . . .
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  #18  
Old 05-11-2009, 01:32 AM
EvanHarper EvanHarper is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Okay, maybe "Refugees International" does wonderful work, maybe they're all great people, etc. But this guest is awfully mealy-mouthed. She says, "In the United States, there was resistance to allowing a strongly Islamic force getting hold of Somali government," as if that's in any way legitimate or relevant. Who cares what the United States thinks is the proper way for Somalis to organize their government? They've no right, none, to intervene in the internal politics of Somalia, their opinion is irrelevant, and to present it as some sort of legitimate objection that ought to be taken into consideration is appalling. She protests that "The Transitional Federal Government, which had been negotiated by the International Community and Somalis themselves, ... were being undermined." Somalis themselves? Who does Ms. Weir think the Islamic Courts Union were, invaders from Mars?

The TFG is a sick joke, and Weir has to know it. By August 2006, 2/3 of its own cabinet had resigned in protest over its failure to even talk with the ICU; it held out in a small border town only because of the presence of thousands of Ethiopian troops keeping away the natives like so many Redcoats. But, "The International Community saw a need to re-enforce the legitimacy of the Transitional Federal Government." What legitimacy? What government? She goes on and on about "legitimacy," but can't seem to even conceive of the idea that no foreign-imposed puppet government can ever be legitimate, no matter what kind of diplomatic acrobatics are employed.

Listen to them drone on. "The Ethiopian forces were deployed inside the country," explains Weir. (Actually, they'd been occupying portions of Somalia since 1999; Weir means they "deployed" to the rest of the country.) They were deployed to "reassert" control of the TFG; interesting, since the TFG never had any control in the first place. Goldberg manages to stomach the word "incursion," a step down from "invasion" and another step down from "aggression," which is the natural and appropriate descriptor; "illegal aggression in flagrant violation of the UN Charter" would not have been an overstep.

The basic factual information here is legitimate, they paint an accurate picture of the appalling treatment of Somalia. But for God's sake, why do they have to talk around it? The bottom line is that a downtrodden country managed a half-decent government, but the US didn't like it on ideological grounds, and so encouraged a vicious and bloody aggression by a foreign enemy, destroying an indigenous popular movement and nominally installing its own pathetic puppets. All this yapping about legitimacy and the international community doesn't change a thing; the West raped Somalia. Again. And Ms. Weir and Mr. Goldberg are too shy to say so.
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  #19  
Old 05-11-2009, 02:38 AM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

The TFG is representative, with people from each major clan and a coalition group from the minor clans as well as representatives of the Islamic extremists and other NGOs. It was less heavily armed than the ICU so it was chased out of Somalia. The bottom line is that you want to see Somalis oppressed by an autocratic fundamentalist government because you'd rather they suffer under a Somali than receive help from the West (or the African Union, which also backed the TFG).
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  #20  
Old 05-11-2009, 11:53 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

The West hasn't raped Somalia, Somalians have. They are the only people responsible for the debacle that is Somalia. The West only sticks its nose in because it's a debacle and people are suffering. No doubt the West complicates things, but Somalia sucks first and foremost because of Somalians.
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  #21  
Old 05-16-2009, 02:53 PM
student student is offline
 
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Default Re: UN Plaza: Somalia (Mark Leon Goldberg & Erin Weir)

Sidenote: Jeez, where is UN Plaza? It's been too long and I need my fix.
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