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  #1  
Old 11-23-2011, 02:39 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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  #2  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:08 PM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
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Default It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

I don't think there are many serious people who say it's the Jews who are running US foreign policy any more than there are serious people who say it's the Muslims. But there has been in the past an influential group of Jews who have been able to sway US policy regardless of what the wider Jewish community might want.

This goes back to the very founding of Israel, when Rabbis where opposed to the new state on theological grounds, but where out maneuvered by Jews lobbying the US president.

In US politics today we see billionaire funders of the democrats who make Israel their top priority and we see an AIPAC and similar groups with strong ties to Israel, that exert enormous influence in Washington and this filters down into the media.

How these views then percolate among the wider non-Jewish community is fascinating. Christian Zionism is one factor, as is support for Israel's liberal values such as LGBT rights among their would be ideological opponents.
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:14 PM
chainlink chainlink is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Great to see Mead on bloggingheads. I'm a regular reader of his blog, and don't know anyone who does connect-the-dots, big-picture kind of stuff, foreign and domestic, as well as he. Insightful and sane.
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  #4  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:18 PM
apple
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs View Post
This goes back to the very founding of Israel, when Rabbis where opposed to the new state on theological grounds, but where out maneuvered by Jews lobbying the US president.
When did that happen? Did Jews also lobby Stalin to recognize Israel before the US did, and to allow Czechoslovakia to supply Israel with vital arms?
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  #5  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:45 PM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
When did that happen? Did Jews also lobby Stalin to recognize Israel before the US did, and to allow Czechoslovakia to supply Israel with vital arms?
President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ts_of_pressure
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  #6  
Old 11-23-2011, 03:47 PM
mitchquick mitchquick is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

In the Israel conversation, I think the particular phrase "Christian Zionists" (as opposed to the more general idea that many gentiles like Israel) wouldn't have been misplaced.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2011, 04:09 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Great to see Walter Russell Mead on Blogginheads. Haven't listened yet, but with Glen Loury on the other side it's bound to be good.
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  #8  
Old 11-23-2011, 05:35 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Having listened to it now, it was every bit as good as I predicted. One thing you gotta admit about Walter Russell Mead: he makes interesting observation you've heard no one else make before. That's what makes him one of the best journalists around.

Economics is WRM only weak suit, at least in my opinion. He errs, for example, when he blames automation primarily and ignores the effects of our trade relationship with China on the collapse of the middle class. Or when he imagines that teaching skills to the unskilled is the key to solving the problem of automation. (Shorter work weeks are and always have been the only way to share the fruits of rising labor productivity. They don't call it labor saving technology for nothing.)

As for dealing with trade, OWS'ers don't claim to be political economists. Good for them, they are wise. Maybe it's time for the real political economists to come up with some answers for a change -- answers which, hopefully, will be as new and refreshing as a lot of the things Walter Russell Mead says.

Last edited by BornAgainDemocrat; 11-23-2011 at 05:45 PM..
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  #9  
Old 11-23-2011, 05:40 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opposable_crumbs View Post
President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."

Yeah, its crazy that the Jews lobbying for their own state, in the wake of the Holocaust, held a lot of political potency. Sounds like a conspiracy.
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  #10  
Old 11-23-2011, 06:16 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Mead protests too much. I don't recall Loury blaming "The Jews" for anything, so Mead's self-righteous finger-wagging was a bit much. Plus, there's something cringe-inducing about Gentiles who feel the urge to prove to us that they really really HATE antisemitism. Now the facts:

1. American Jews would never vote for Bibi says Mead: In favorability ratings among American Jews, Netanyahu beats Obama 61% to 54%. (J-Street 2011). To quote the great Perry, "oops."

2. Americans love Israel so much that 71% of them want the US "not to take sides in the I/P conflict" (WPO 2008). How many Americans think Israel is "doing its part" to resolve the I/P conflict? Answer: 30% .

3. Yes, Americans adore Israel (67%) but somehow they adore Japan even more (77%) and positively worship Germany (80%) -- Gallup 2010. So why isn't our "Germany policy" a serious issue in the presidential campaign? Perhaps because love's got little to do with it, but crass geopolitical interests do.

4. Americans are a bunch of ignoramuses (partly thanks to the propaganda they get from the Mead crowd), so could it be they don't like Palestinians because every mention of them in the news portrays them as monsters? (wait for the perfectly rotten 'apple' to confirm).

5. Christian Zionists love Israel, that's true. And they respect the Jews so much they'll convert all of them to Christianity as soon as they have a chance. I think we've seen this love story before.

Last edited by ohreally; 11-23-2011 at 06:19 PM..
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  #11  
Old 11-23-2011, 06:50 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

Quote:
....as is support for Israel's liberal values such as LGBT rights among their would be ideological opponents.
Pinkwashing.
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  #12  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:18 PM
bjk bjk is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

It's not about policy, it's about "are you on my side." If an American politician (like Obama) adopted the position of the median Jewish voter, he would be attacked as anti-Israel and lose Jewish support. Obama's mild ME centrism shows this. American Jews (and their friends) want a politician who is more pro-Israel than they might be, just to be safe.
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  #13  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:30 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

25,000 troops in Korea, 45,000 in Japan, now 2,500 in Australia of all places and this is a grand strategy. By the way, Walter where did you serve? No, going to school for half you life is not an excuse.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 11-23-2011 at 08:03 PM..
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Interesting conversation. But someone will have to explain what this antisemitism-a-la-Mead is about. Even if the estimation that Jewish American influence foreign affairs heavily isn't accurate, why would that be construed as antisemitism? I couldn't connect the dots.
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:40 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Ugh. The notion that anti-gay sentiment is in anyway a mis-characterization of the average Islamic community, let alone the ones the Europeans have to deal with, is so ridiculous as to almost suggest you are pretending to believe the things you say.
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  #16  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:43 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

In other words, "Gays need to ally to face the real enemy, the opponents of gay marriage in the United States. The guys who think we're abominations who should be annihilated are natural allies in this quest."
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  #17  
Old 11-23-2011, 07:51 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Walter Russell Mead! What a treat! There are very few serious people in Western journalism, and Mead is certainly one of those few. Excellent get!
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  #18  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:18 PM
apple
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Default Re: It's not the Jews, but it is some Jews.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
From your article: These depictions of immigrants — usually Muslims of Arab, South Asian, Turkish or African origin — as “homophobic fanatics” opportunistically ignore the existence of Muslim gays and their allies within their communities.

Good point. Let's cite an example of a gay Muslim:

Abu Qussay said he killed his son after discovering he was gay. He said he was now considered a hero by his friends.

"I hanged him in my house in front of his brother to give an example to all of them and prevent them from doing the same," Qussay said proudly.

After the father of two was arrested for the murder, he was charged with the killing and then released a month later when his lawyer explained why his client had committed the crime.

"Killing for honour has been a common practice for years, and a short prison sentence for the killer is common," said Ibraheem Daud, a lawyer specialised in family crimes based in the capital.

Since 1994, Daud has been involved with nearly 65 cases of honour killings involving gay men.


http://www.irinnews.org/fr/reportfre...reportid=26110

Islam is a religion of peace! Islam is wonderful! Islam teaches to respect other people! Islam teaches love and humanity!
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  #19  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:11 PM
basman basman is offline
 
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Default Re: The deWaltMearsheiming of Loury

Good to see WRM helping in this.

(Edited addition: it's mind boggling to me that it comes as a surprise to Loury, who I like a lot, that American Jews are not the drivers of U.S. foreign policy when it comes to Israel. He will spout off about that indignantly, not knowing what the hell he's talking about save that he's read Ilan Pappe. But now that the unbrainwashing has been begun, that spouting ought to be less frequent and less strident.)

Itzik Basman

Last edited by basman; 11-23-2011 at 09:21 PM..
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:12 PM
Cain Cain is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Does it matter if the Israel Lobby is run by Jews or Gentiles? And why does Mead look at American Jewry on the whole? Go back to your basic Mancur Olson: small, intensely motivated groups drive policy.

What's insane is that it's not a topic of mainstream discussion. We can talk openly about the Cuban lobby, and their ridiculous influence (mostly due to Electoral College math). The Israeli lobby is off-limits.

The fact Loury begins by saying he's going to play Devil's Advocate and then Mead gets all worked up so as to say "I'm not going to say that's anti-Semitic but..." should give us pause (as well as the flash of fear in Loury's eyes).

As far as I'm concerned the reason why Americans overwhelmingly identify with Jews is rather simple: in this disagreement, Jews are the white people.

Those noble colonizers -- I mean, settlers -- from Europe... the people who nobly created government subsidized segregated housing -- I mean, settlements... um, that's our team: Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust!
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  #21  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:24 PM
chamblee54 chamblee54 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

1- People will believe anything you say if you can show them a survey that agrees with you.
2- There is a reason why survey's talk about a margin of error. It is not an exact science. The questions, sample selection, and interpretation leave a lot of room for the surveyor to find the results he is looking for.
3- Israel may have a better official track record on LGBT issues than her neighbors. (There are also many lurid tales of Arabs on the down low.) However, the gun person who shot up the gay center in Tel Aviv has never been arrested. As security happy as Israel is, the government almost certainly knows who the gun person is.
4- There are stories of Israel supporters making a large cash donation to Harry Truman's election campaign in 1948. This is supposed to be the reason Mr. Truman supported the creation of Israel.
5- The lighting on Mr. Loury is greatly improved.
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  #22  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:28 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
As far as I'm concerned the reason why Americans overwhelmingly identify with Jews is rather simple: in this disagreement, Jews are the white people.
Yeah. It has nothing to do with the fact that Israel is a democracy, that it has freedom, women's rights, human rights, gay rights, that it contributes significantly to scientific progress (if you're using an Intel processor, chances are that it was originally developed in Israel) - no, it's skin color. It's got nothing to do with the fact that the Arabs started wars of aggression three times, that they target Israeli civilians for murder, that they are intensely anti-Semitic, that they are hostile to human rights, women's rights, gay rights - no, it's their skin color. If only you were capable of elementary, third-grade reason and logic, you'd laugh at yourself for suggesting something like this.

And the fact that this is the motive you suspect in others, may give us some clue as to why you are on the side you're on.
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  #23  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:29 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by chamblee54 View Post
3- Israel may have a better official track record on LGBT issues than her neighbors. (There are also many lurid tales of Arabs on the down low.) However, the gun person who shot up the gay center in Tel Aviv has never been arrested. As security happy as Israel is, the government almost certainly knows who the gun person is.
Absurd conspiracy theory.
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  #24  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:29 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by chamblee54 View Post
5- The lighting on Mr. Loury is greatly improved.
Especially considering that he may have been in a submarine.
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  #25  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:35 PM
Cain Cain is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Yeah. It has nothing to do with the fact that Israel is a democracy, that it has freedom, women's rights, human rights, gay rights, that it contributes significantly to scientific progress (if you're using an Intel processor, chances are that it was originally developed in Israel) - no, it's skin color. It's got nothing to do with the fact that the Arabs started wars of aggression three times, that they target Israeli civilians for murder, that they are intensely anti-Semitic, that they are hostile to human rights, women's rights, gay rights - no, it's their skin color. If only you were capable of elementary, third-grade reason and logic, you'd laugh at yourself for suggesting something like this.
Yeah, you're right. When has something like skin color ever played a role in favoritism?
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:36 PM
basman basman is offline
 
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Default Re: The deWaltMearsheiming of Loury

p.s. The slander that American Jews drive policy towards Israel is continuous with vile historical anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about controling Jewish cabals. The obvious distinction between a lobby exerting influence and Jews' tentacled grip on policy is elided by modern day anti Semites spewing the same vile cant.

Itzik Basman
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  #27  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:47 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The deWaltMearsheiming of Loury

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Originally Posted by basman View Post
p.s. The slander that American Jews drive policy towards Israel is continuous with vile historical anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about controling Jewish cabals. The obvious distinction between a lobby exerting influence and Jews' tentacled grip on policy is elided by modern day anti Semites spewing the same vile cant.

Itzik Basman
Let me get this right. You're saying that there are antisemitic groups that make up stories about Jewish conspiracies and cabals exerting secret disproportionately powerful control over US government policies, especially foreign affairs regarding Israel. Is that right?

And then you say that if anyone, even if not belonging to the antisemitic groups, thinks that Jewish American groups exert some degree of influence over foreign policy regarding Israel, that would make them antisemitic by virtue of some perception of similarity of their ideas? Or would the antisemitic qualification only apply to those who think that Jewish Americans are the main drivers (they exert more power than any other group in the US) of such policies?

Honestly, I'm just trying to understand the alleged complaint, because I didn't think that Glen was expressing an antisemitic view in his comment.
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  #28  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:53 PM
apple
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Yeah, you're right. When has something like skin color ever played a role in favoritism?
Always. On the other hand, who gives a damn about democracy, freedom, human rights? We'd be on the side of the people who blow up women and children, if it were not for the color of their skin.

Israel-haters should try to get a country with pale-skinned people to declare war on Israel. Perhaps Sweden. Then Israel-supporters will instantly switch sides and support Sweden. After all, skin color is all that matters.
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  #29  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:19 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

ohreally said:

Quote:
Mead protests too much. I don't recall Loury blaming "The Jews" for anything,
I'll have to look at Mead's review of Walt/Mearsheimer in "Foreign Affairs," but it seems to me that Mead's reasoning is seriously flawed.

In the first place, Walt/Mearsheimer did not depict the "Israel lobby" as a monolithically Jewish lobby. All along, there was the acknowledgment that the "Israel lobby" contains, or depends upon important gentile support. But more importantly, one cannot look at the influence of the alleged lobby and then do a polling analysis of the American Jewish community, an analysis based upon one-man/one-vote, with each vote bearing equal weight, and then conclude that the alleged lobby, which represents the "Israel right or wrong" portion of the American Jewish electorate, does not exert outsized and disproportionate influence. One could not conclude this logically, even if one stipulated that every "fact" Mead alleges about the preferences of each Jewish individual in the US is true. In order to think that there is no specifically Jewish lobby that is influencing policy in a pro-Israel direction, one would have to think, for example, that Wonderment and I exert as much influence on American policy towards Israel as William Kristol and Norman Podhoretz. I would contend that such a thought is preposterous on its face. But OK, let's make this a fairer fight. Who exerts more influence on America's policy towards Israel, David Remnick or William Kristol, or Noam Chomsky or Abraham Foxman?

I think Mead has a good point, if his assertion is that no subset of the American Jewish community, no matter how rich and well connected, could, completely by itself, account for American foreign policy towards Israel. If we look at the Iraq war, which was the policy decision that evoked the Walt/Mearsheimer book, there had to be an alliance between the gentiles, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, and the Jewish neocons Wolfowitz, Feith, and Perle. At the level of the foreign policy elite, there is, in my opinion, undoubtedly a faction which thinks that Israel’s contributions to US interests in the Middle East in the military/intelligence realm outweigh any liability the US-Israel alliance represents in terms of access to oil or the recruitment of Islamo-terrorists.

If Mead insists upon calling me an anti-Semite because I believe that there is a specifically Jewish lobby, an important subset of the larger “Israel lobby” that would also include the Christian Zionists, that exerts disproportionate influence on American policy towards Israel, I guess I’ll have to live with the accusation. But I think it’s a bit weird to be calling “left-wing” American Jews who desperately want an end to the occupation and whose views are not aligned with those of Kristol-Podhoretz-Perle-Wolfowitz-Feith-Krauthammer anti-Semites.

But just from the point of view of political science, I don’t see how one can look at the politics of the United States and then proceed to do a one-man, one-vote analysis of virtually anything, an analysis in which every vote is given equal weight. So, for example, I think it is widely recognized that the Cuban exile community in Florida exerts a disproportionate influence on US policy towards Cuba, partly because Florida is an important swing state in US presidential politics. For similar reasons, one has to consider the possibility that the particular makeup of the Jewish communities in New York and Florida leads to results that are not consistent with the political outcomes that would be expected from doing a poll of all Jewish voters in New York and Florida and then weighing every straw-poll vote in the poll equally.

If one goes on to youtube, one can see videos of Stephen Walt addressing very enthusiastic crowds of American Jews who would like to see an end to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and a more even-handed American foreign policy as regards the Israel-Palestinian debate. So let us stipulate that the Jewish community in America is itself divided on this question. How does it follow from this that there cannot be a “neocon” Jewish lobby that exerts disproportionate influence, say by a factor of 3 to 4 to one, or even by 100 to 1, in terms of its sheer numbers on a one-man, one-vote basis, on US policy towards Israel? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that the people pulling the strings at AIPAC, and who are using specific techniques to achieve the 20% drop in overall vote count for the “anti-Israel” candidates they target, are Jewish? I mean, let’s get real. But sure, AIPAC could not achieve the results it does achieve in the absence of factors in the history and sociology of American gentiles that make its propaganda techniques so effective. One also has to look at this from the other point of view. Would America's policy towards Israel be what it is in the absence of AIPAC?

If Loury is going to stand up to Mead in a future discussion of this issue, Loury is clearly going to have to do a lot more reading and thinking about it than he has done. It’s not a fair fight. So I think bhtv needs to persuade Walt or someone like him to do it. Let’s see Mead call Walt an anti-Semite. That could be interesting.
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Last edited by ledocs; 11-24-2011 at 12:28 AM..
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  #30  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:32 PM
Cain Cain is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Always. On the other hand, who gives a damn about democracy, freedom, human rights?
Not Americans -- otherwise they would be concerned about democracy, freedom and human rights for Palestinians. Which they're not.

Quote:
We'd be on the side of the people who blow up women and children, if it were not for the color of their skin.
If we were on their side, they would not be blowing themselves up. They would commit atrocities using American arms.

Quote:
Israel-haters should try to get a country with pale-skinned people to declare war on Israel. Perhaps Sweden. Then Israel-supporters will instantly switch sides and support Sweden. After all, skin color is all that matters.
Your stupidity is astonishing. The skin color of victims matters, in U.S. death penalty cases as well as atrocities committed overseas. Americans readily identify with people blown up in a pizzeria, an image seared into the mind of the public even though the atrocity occurred over 20 years ago. Never mind Palestinians experienced far greater oppression, shed more blood, the reality is out of sight and out of mind. But yeah, if Israelis start slaughtering Andersons and Magnussons, I'm sure public opinion would shift. A body bag with one Rachel Corrie is worth dozens of Abdullahs.

But no, stick to your theory about how they support Israel because their computer has a Pentium processor. Thanks for reminding me why I don't post here.
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  #31  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:25 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Walter Russell Mead! What a treat! There are very few serious people in Western journalism, and Mead is certainly one of those few. Excellent get!
I was about to say the exact same thing.

Mead mentions a national testing standard as a way to drive down higher education costs. That's something I've also said in the past. I wonder why this doesn't get more support? It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
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Last edited by sugarkang; 11-23-2011 at 11:34 PM..
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  #32  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:30 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default A Politician who's anti-Israel drops 20 points in the polls

Interesting.

I think this is true. We often forget about the nutty "Christian Zionists" & Southern Loonies like Pat Robertson or Gary Bauer. Robertson, IRC, supported Gulliani because he was 'good on Israel' in 2008 - so what if he was pro-choice! Gary Bauer, meanwhile, refused to support the Huckster, his fellow Christian Evangelist, because McCain was "better for Israel". An then there's Rev. Haggee.

However, I think Walter is wrong about Palin & many other Pols. You need to remember politicians gain nothing by anti-Israel and gain at least something by being Pro-Israel, no matter where they are. Being "for Israel" is like being for "Diversity" or "God, Home, and Apple Pie". Its a no-brainer for a politician, no matter what they really think on the issue.

I think its often forgotten that probably 75% of Americans who aren't Christian Zionists, Gentile Loonies like Gary Bauer, Jews, or Arabs, don't really care about Israel. They want Israel to be safe & prosperous, like they want Ireland or New Zealand to be safe & prosperous, but otherwise they don't really give a damn. So its quite easy for AIPAC to dominate the discussion because there's no one on the other side, and no one else cares.

Last edited by rcocean; 11-23-2011 at 11:46 PM..
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  #33  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:32 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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If Loury is going to stand up to Mead in a future discussion of this issue, Loury is clearly going to have to do a lot more reading and thinking about it than he has done. It’s not a fair fight. So I think bhtv needs to persuade Walt or someone like him to do it. Let’s see Mead call Walt an anti-Semite. That could be interesting.
First, let me thank you for the good post. I was going to make several of the same points -- particularly about the Cuban analogy -- but I was overwhelmed by how Sissyphean such an endeavor often feels, given the rigidity of opinion often encountered among fellow-commenters here.

I would like to be a little tougher than you were on Mead, however. I thought he was trying to bait Glenn into saying something that could be construed (in the Zionist imagination) as anti-Semitic. Glenn didn't take the bait, but as a result he couldn't really challenge Mead's faulty assumptions.

I am very reluctant to let the anti-Semite policing of the intellectual universe go unanswered. What Zionist activists (Jew and Gentile) have achieved in the USA over the past few decades is to equate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews, so that it is unforgivably politically incorrect to utter a word of criticism of Israel, lest you be called a Jew hater. Mead seems to be zealously enforcing this political correctness.

Criticism of Zionist Israel -- its occupation, its intransigence, its violence against Palestinians and its political system which has features of both Apartheid and Jim Crow -- is not heresy.
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  #34  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:43 PM
Globalcop Globalcop is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
25,000 troops in Korea, 45,000 in Japan, now 2,500 in Australia of all places and this is a grand strategy. By the way, Walter where did you serve? No, going to school for half you life is not an excuse.
"Where did you serve?" What does that mean? No citizen is entitled to an opinion on foreign affairs unless they spent a few years playing army?

If you can't do any better than that, I give it to Walter by default. By the way.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:45 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

So I have read Mead's review now, and I don't have any major problems with it. Mead says that Walt/Mearsheimer could have easily avoided a lot of the charges of anti-Semitism to which they became subject if they had been more careful in their rhetoric, but he gives no examples of the offending rhetoric or of how they could have made their points differently.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...rome?page=show

I should make it clear that I have not read the Walt/Mearsheimer book. I read the article in "The London Review of Books" that formed the basis for the book, and I am beginning to think that not enough work went into expanding the article into a book. I've now heard too many people of too many different stripes say that the book is not very good in order not to believe that the book is not very good.

Mead's views about Mearsheimer's anti-Semitism seem to have hardened very considerably since the review was written.

The question remains, then, of whether there is an Israel lobby in the US and of what its composition and power are, if it exists. Mead himself appears to say in this dv that an "anti-Israel" candidate targeted by some group or groups can suffer a 20% decline in votes as compared with a candidate who is not so targeted. How many candidates for office can lose 20 points and still win?
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:21 AM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Why Don't we just tax stupidity?

Crazy Comment by Meade.

Replace the payroll tax with a "Carbon Tax"! Okey dokey.

And no, more SS spending doesn't mean we need to spend less on everything else. The alternative is to raise the payroll cap on SS wages, currently at approximately $100,000 - that will solve the entire "SS Crisis".

I assume Meade is a well-to-do Academic with a great pension who doesn't need SS, hence his blase attitude that spending money on SS benefits is a "bad thing".
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  #37  
Old 11-24-2011, 12:33 AM
timboy timboy is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

I was interested by Mead's comment about how a general post-graduate exam could have meritocratic force - replacing the brand imprint of Ivy League schools with pure exam performance.

Since I doubt that all universities will band together to support such a thing as they are banded together in France - is there any role for the private sector here? Imagine a private company whose business model is sort of like the model of credit-score companies - certifying the academic competence of their subjects, regardless of school attendance.

I am not sure what the mix should be of payment from the tested and the potential employers, but it would be nice if it were free to take the test(s) and employers paid to get access to the data.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

I'll add my voice to the chorus: excellent dialogue!
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  #39  
Old 11-24-2011, 12:49 AM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I should make it clear that I have not read the Walt/Mearsheimer book.
The book is locally fine, though you can tell W&M are no experts, but globally misguided. America's primary interest in supporting Israel is imperialistic: Israel is the last Western colony and the Israeli lobby plays a marginal role. From what I can tell, though, Mead has no particular knowledge about the I/P conflict. In many ways, he seems utterly clueless. (The only thing that seems bother Mead about Bibi is his penchant for humiliating the US. If only Bibi showed respect, all would be well. That's the sort of cluelessness I am talking about.) I bet Loury is every bit as knowledgeable about Israel as Mead is. It's just that Mead has absorbed the CFR talking points and is good at regurgitating them.

Mead and Tom Friedman are quite similar. Both were promising smart young guys whose first books were not bad. But then they both sold out to be part of the club and in the process became some of the stupidest public voices in this country. While Friedman gave us the flat world in his quest to become the King of Glibness, Mead gave us the "Bad Science of Global Warming" crap and an obsessive defense of the Jews (as though the Jews need a big gentile oaf like Mead for protection).
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  #40  
Old 11-24-2011, 01:01 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: The Whirligig of Time (Glenn Loury & Walter Russell Mead)

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I'll add my voice to the chorus: excellent dialogue!
Hadn't heard of Walter Russell Mead before. I'm now subscribed to his blog.
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