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  #1  
Old 09-21-2010, 07:56 PM
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Default Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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  #2  
Old 09-21-2010, 08:30 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

While the particularly partisan my find it gleeful to point to the nomination of Christine O'Donnell as evidence that the Republican base is crazy, I find that very little can be attributed to said group from this incident. It was a off-year senate primary where only 3% of the population voted, a scenario where one can easily imagine a small extremist sliver of a population winning a primary.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2010, 08:36 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
While the particularly partisan my find it gleeful to point to the nomination of Christine O'Donnell as evidence that the Republican base is crazy, I find that very little can be attributed to said group from this incident. It was a off-year senate primary where only 3% of the population voted, a scenario where one can easily imagine a small extremist sliver of a population winning a primary.
I'm not particularly partisan (waiting for the chorus of jeers...) but, I think you have logic backwards. This is an off-year election in which only the most commited get out to vote. I think you might call those folks "the base" in either party.
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  #4  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
While the particularly partisan my find it gleeful to point to the nomination of Christine O'Donnell as evidence that the Republican base is crazy, I find that very little can be attributed to said group from this incident. It was a off-year senate primary where only 3% of the population voted, a scenario where one can easily imagine a small extremist sliver of a population winning a primary.
Yes, this is true. Serious conservatives are mortified by O'Donnell.

Also, unlike Angle, who simply has horrible press skills and one or two dumb comments, O'Donnell actually really is crazy, as in literally mentally deranged.
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  #5  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:30 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

the soft bigotry of low expectations

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/310...3:03&out=33:20
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:33 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Also

i can't wait for Always Cynical to weigh in...
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:43 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

So they say that the Real Republicans were taken by surprise by the election of the crazy Tea Party candidates. But, who voted for the crazies? Weren't they Real Republicans? Let's assume they were an atypical but motivated minority, how about the rest of the Republican voters? Are they going to stay home on election day? Or will they vote for Democrats? Or for the crazies?

Then they talked about what cuts could be made to decrease the deficit. They said that there are many easy cuts, but they wouldn't amount to much, so they're not a solution. Then they sled past not extending tax cuts for the wealthiest, saying that the measure wouldn't significantly reduce the deficit. And there was no discussion of this point. However, for what I read elsewhere, this would be a significant measure to reduce the deficit. What's the story here?

In the last section they talked about the Koch brothers. Stephen was very sarcastic about the criticisms and insisted on how ideologically driven the brothers are without any personal financial interest and how evil it is to imply otherwise. Once again the question in my mind is whether Stephen is misguided and misinformed or misguiding and misinforming. How about a little bit more of a disclosure of how difficult is would be to say otherwise considering conflicts of interests?

Now who knows who these people are related to. About the looks, our eyes can tell.
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Almost forgot about this one. They kept making comments about teachers' unions requesting more training for teachers in Hawaii and how journalist don't get to go to places like that.

Ask the brothers to send you to report on next years' APA annual meeting or suck it up!



Aloha, Bon Jour, Bienvenidos, Bienvenue, Wilkommen, Welcome!
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:14 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
So they say that the Real Republicans were taken by surprise by the election of the crazy Tea Party candidates. But, who voted for the crazies? Weren't they Real Republicans? Let's assume they were an atypical but motivated minority, how about the rest of the Republican voters? Are they going to stay home on election day? Or will they vote for Democrats? Or for the crazies?

Then they talked about what cuts could be made to decrease the deficit. They said that there are many easy cuts, but they wouldn't amount to much, so they're not a solution. Then they sled past not extending tax cuts for the wealthiest, saying that the measure wouldn't significantly reduce the deficit. And there was no discussion of this point. However, for what I read elsewhere, this would be a significant measure to reduce the deficit. What's the story here?

In the last section they talked about the Koch brothers. Stephen was very sarcastic about the criticisms and insisted on how ideologically driven the brothers are without any personal financial interest and how evil it is to imply otherwise. Once again the question in my mind is whether Stephen is misguided and misinformed or misguiding and misinforming. How about a little bit more of a disclosure of how difficult is would be to say otherwise considering conflicts of interests?

Now who knows who these people are related to. About the looks, our eyes can tell.
I think it's naive to believe that 7% of the tax cut means all that much. If Obama really was concerned about the deficit he wouldn't have run it up and now he'd be talking about doing away with the tax cuts on all Americans.
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Here and here.
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  #11  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:37 PM
qingl78 qingl78 is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

I find it particularly charming that KMW and SS think that their benefactors are simon pure. I just want to pinch their porcine cheeks.

I don't think that either one of them has worked with a C level exec or knows what they are like. Hell I doubt that they have had a real job.

I am sure that in a couple of weeks we will hear from both of them about the perfidy of history's greatest monster....George Soros!!!1!!!
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:00 PM
cragger cragger is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Then they talked about what cuts could be made to decrease the deficit. They said that there are many easy cuts, but they wouldn't amount to much, so they're not a solution. Then they sled past not extending tax cuts for the wealthiest, saying that the measure wouldn't significantly reduce the deficit. And there was no discussion of this point. However, for what I read elsewhere, this would be a significant measure to reduce the deficit. What's the story here?
My understanding is that letting the tax cuts for the richest few percent expire would make a significant dent in the deficit, but not close the current deficit. The discussion gave the impression that both diavloggers dismissed it out of hand because of this, or perhaps they have other reasons as yet unstated for not taxing the richest beneficiaries of our society.

I listened for any suggestion of cutting the immense military budget but heard nothing but Ms. Mangu-Ward's suggestion of ending the Iraq and Afghan Wars/occupations, which seemed to fall with a thud and vanish from further discussion. That would save something like 100 billion a year, not counting all the billions we throw at other countries to buy support and so on. The latest Pentagon budget (only part of the military and government power budget) is about 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Trimming that even to half a trillion would still leave us spending many times as much as any other nation, potential adversary or not, but that was apparantly off the table. Once you take taxes and the military and government power programs (DHS, spy agencies and so on) off the table there isn't much chance of balancing the budget.

Per my 2010 tax form, the "social security, medicare, and other retirement" "entitlement" slice represents 30% of the government income pie chart, and 37% of the outlay chart - meaning that general taxes and borrowing cover about 7% of the budget as outflow in this area. That's vs. 34% of outlays for defense and foreign affairs (24%), law enforcement and general government (2%), and debt interest (8%), with the debt requiring this service due mostly to the cost of wars from Vietnam onwards plus the amount by which the US has outspent the next most profligate nation on earth in persuit of military power over that same period. I would expect the 8% of budget for interest payments to expand considerably as we continue to run deficits and also to do so if and when interest rates ever edge away from zero. Of course, there is no income from the categories representing this 34% of budget, so that is all taxes and borrowing.

We currently borrow 15% of the budget, so even if conservatives and libertarians wave their magic wands and eliminate social security and medicare entirely and save that 7%, it won't fix the budget so long as taxes and an ever expanding military and security state are sacrosanct.
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  #13  
Old 09-22-2010, 12:07 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
While the particularly partisan my find it gleeful to point to the nomination of Christine O'Donnell as evidence that the Republican base is crazy, I find that very little can be attributed to said group from this incident. It was a off-year senate primary where only 3% of the population voted, a scenario where one can easily imagine a small extremist sliver of a population winning a primary.
Well, it was more like 6.5% of the entire Delaware population, and a higher percentage of Delaware's voting age population, and a higher-still percentage of Delaware's registered voters, but your point that an extremist faction controlled the outcome in Delaware is well taken.

Unfortunately, she still got the nomination, and in any less sane state than Delaware, would be rewarded with one of 100 seats in the US Senate. People can dismiss "off year elections" as somehow meaningless, but we have them every four years in this country, and the elections in off years count exactly like elections on "on" years. And once someone is elected, the power of incumbency means they are favored to keep the seat in future elections.

Maybe the strength of the lunatic/psychopath faction of the GOP can be measured by the fact that EVEN IN one of the most sane, lunacy-averse states in the Union, the psycho candidate still won the nomination. I think you're whistling past the graveyard if you keep reaching for reasons to dismiss the significance of the ever-more-extreme base of the Republican Party.
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  #14  
Old 09-22-2010, 12:14 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Almost forgot about this one. They kept making comments about teachers' unions requesting more training for teachers in Hawaii and how journalist don't get to go to places like that.

Ask the brothers to send you to report on next years' APA annual meeting or suck it up!



Aloha, Bon Jour, Bienvenidos, Bienvenue, Wilkommen, Welcome!
I have more teachers in my family than I can count, from my mother, two grandmothers, my sister, and a number of aunts and uncles. And in my life none of them has ever gone to Hawaii -- or any other luxurious destination -- for "teacher training." This is just more wingnut psychopathy designed to demonize one of the few elements of the working class not yet reduced to poverty.

It's amazing that so many Americans are willing to line up behind a platform of "cut special deals for the very wealthy while demonizing teachers." It's astonishing that this actually works.

Hate is not only a core conservative value -- it's apparently also very effective!

Last edited by TwinSwords; 09-22-2010 at 12:19 AM..
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  #15  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:50 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
I think it's naive to believe that 7% of the tax cut means all that much.
It will effect 7% of taxpayers, but it's absolutely not 7% of the tax cut. The under-$250,000 tax cuts cost about $255 Billion annually, while the above-$250,000 cuts cost $55 Billion per year, or half a trillion over the 10-year window. That's about a quarter of the annual gross cost of the Affordable Care Act, which clocks in at $196 billion in 2019. That's not enough to eliminate the deficit, but it isn't exactly chump change either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by operative View Post
If Obama really was concerned about the deficit he wouldn't have run it up and now he'd be talking about doing away with the tax cuts on all Americans.
Obama is not responsible for the current deficit. Reduced tax revenue and increased automatic payments from the recession, combined with the Bush tax cuts, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Medicare Part D account for the vast majority of the budget shortfall, while the ACA reduces the deficit, TARP, which Obama didn't even pass, was repaid, and the Stimulus was a lump-sum that paled in comparison to the ongoing costs of Bush's budget-busting policies.

Last edited by Don Zeko; 09-22-2010 at 01:52 AM..
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  #16  
Old 09-22-2010, 03:04 AM
Always Cynical Always Cynical is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings?

Not quite, kids. Just a nice young guy and a nice young gal who have had their opinions bought and paid for by the Koch brothers.

Oh, and please nix the "if the Tea Party could be controlled" line. Not only is that shtick beneath the two of you from an intellectual standpoint, it also gives Dick Armey some sort of legitimacy.

Lastly, Ms. Katherine, you do not "do the job because you love it." You do the job because you are compensated well ( and offshore, of course) by your think tank masters to write and say what you are told to write and say. You will write and say always that which mirrors the wishes of those who sign the checks.
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  #17  
Old 09-22-2010, 05:17 AM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings?

Not quite, kids. Just a nice young guy and a nice young gal who have had their opinions bought and paid for by the Koch brothers.

Oh, and please nix the "if the Tea Party could be controlled" line. Not only is that shtick beneath the two of you from an intellectual standpoint, it also gives Dick Armey some sort of legitimacy.

Lastly, Ms. Katherine, you do not "do the job because you love it." You do the job because you are compensated well ( and offshore, of course) by your think tank masters to write and say what you are told to write and say. You will write and say always that which mirrors the wishes of those who sign the checks.
So who pays you, cynic?
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2010, 07:52 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
I have more teachers in my family than I can count, from my mother, two grandmothers, my sister, and a number of aunts and uncles. And in my life none of them has ever gone to Hawaii -- or any other luxurious destination -- for "teacher training." This is just more wingnut psychopathy designed to demonize one of the few elements of the working class not yet reduced to poverty.

It's amazing that so many Americans are willing to line up behind a platform of "cut special deals for the very wealthy while demonizing teachers." It's astonishing that this actually works.
I very much agree with your post. Of all people, taking issue with teachers seems to be a perfect example of applying the most bizarre priorities. How can we take seriously what this people say when on the same breath they demonize teachers and praise the Koch's purity of intentions?
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Old 09-22-2010, 08:05 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Following the numbers that you show, and knowing that we can't change the past, I would favor to get started with the big items. Even if raising taxes for the richest (to what the previous levels were) and decreasing defense expending won't solve the entire problem, they will help. The problem with health care, is and has been a much more complex one due to the raising costs of health care separate from any attempt to reform or expand coverage.

Sometimes, I wonder how do people who want to eliminate social security, or education/ health budgets, manage their own personal budgets? If they had a very limited income and had to cut expenses, where would they start?
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  #20  
Old 09-22-2010, 10:34 AM
cragger cragger is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

I am in complete agreement, we should be doing these things. Also in agreement regarding the health care problem as in past discussions on the BH boards. Health care cost containment will not happen without data-driven identification of the cost drivers that have the US spending more per capita than other developed nations to achieve results that are no better and in several metrics worse, and making the fundamental changes necessary to fix that cost for performance problem. Unfortunately there seems to be virtually no chance at all of that happening. In our present political climate, there seems to be no chance of any of these things happening.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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I am in complete agreement, we should be doing these things. Also in agreement regarding the health care problem as in past discussions on the BH boards. Health care cost containment will not happen without data-driven identification of the cost drivers that have the US spending more per capita than other developed nations to achieve results that are no better and in several metrics worse, and making the fundamental changes necessary to fix that cost for performance problem. Unfortunately there seems to be virtually no chance at all of that happening. In our present political climate, there seems to be no chance of any of these things happening.
Yes, the Reps are already planning to undo whatever improvement has been achieved and continue to block any other legislative measure except for cutting taxes for the rich. And they get salaries for that.
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  #22  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:14 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cragger View Post
I am in complete agreement, we should be doing these things. Also in agreement regarding the health care problem as in past discussions on the BH boards. Health care cost containment will not happen without data-driven identification of the cost drivers that have the US spending more per capita than other developed nations to achieve results that are no better and in several metrics worse, and making the fundamental changes necessary to fix that cost for performance problem. Unfortunately there seems to be virtually no chance at all of that happening. In our present political climate, there seems to be no chance of any of these things happening.
True. With all of this, it strikes me that the problem is that people are not being specific. People like Mickey and Pinkerton and McArtle have all at least been honest enough at times to say that they are fine with paying more for health care (they've said other things I disagree with, of course), because they think the benefits are worth it. I know a number of others, including Dems, who think Obama was wrong to focus on cost-cutting at all, that people just want to be sure they get the benefits (as with some expansion of Medicare to all) and would be fine otherwise keeping many of the factors that lead American health care to cost more. That might be, but I think we definitely should identify and decide.

As a somewhat related aside, one of the consequence of the recession plus heath care reform at my office is that people are going to be made more aware of the amount the firm contributes toward their health care, as we pay the premiums -- something that should be considered as part of salary, but often has not been in most workers with health care's calculation as clearly as it might be. I think part of the health care problem is that people in general think there have been problems, but they really don't see the costs all that directly, if they have Medicare/good employer-based health care. (And, again, this is what most people worried about the changes wanted to keep, not some free market system that does not exist and without reference to whether it's really sustainable.)

And, back to the budget, I'm completely open to at least discussing just about any cuts, but I want the proposed cuts and the related savings identified. I suspect that much as people like the concept of cutting, they aren't willing to give up the expensive things at all. (I don't want to make major changes to Social Security and the like either, but I'm confident that the public and I are in agreement on this, so let's talk about it.)
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  #23  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:27 PM
Always Cynical Always Cynical is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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So who pays you, cynic?
My conscience.

A demanding boss. No patience. No day's off. Cuts me no slack. Expects honesty every time. Requires hard work. Has little use for miscreants, paid hacks, and the suckers who back them without question.

Robby, call me if and when you find a conscience. Or a spine. We'll do lunch.
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

I think that education, health care and retirement / disability benefits (social security) shouldn't be cut. Tax relief for the wealthy and defense, on the other hand, could.

The problem with health care is that more doesn't always give you better. There's a significant amount of misallocation of money when it comes to the healthcare "industry".
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Robby, call me if and when you find a conscience. Or a spine. We'll do lunch.
Oh, come on! It isn't your conscience that pays you for that.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2010, 06:08 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Teachers have a lot of support: the unions and the school boards (unions control the one in Los Angeles). Who do the children have? Hopefully, it's more than a disinterested parent(s). If that's the case they have no one.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 09-22-2010 at 07:34 PM..
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2010, 08:17 PM
Peter Twieg Peter Twieg is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
This is just more wingnut psychopathy designed to demonize one of the few elements of the working class not yet reduced to poverty.
Talk about self-discrediting rhetoric.
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2010, 08:18 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Talk about self-discrediting rhetoric.
Sorry you didn't like it.
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2010, 09:48 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Yes, this is true. Serious conservatives are mortified by O'Donnell.
not if she wins.
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  #30  
Old 09-23-2010, 09:51 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Actually they'd be even more mortified. Imagine the reaction of Dems if Alvin Greene would somehow win. The public rhetoric would be somewhat different but privately they would absolutely be mortified.
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  #31  
Old 09-23-2010, 09:59 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
I think part of the health care problem is that people in general think there have been problems, but they really don't see the costs all that directly, if they have Medicare/good employer-based health care.
In my simplistic way (per oceana) I have attempted to point this out numerous times. The whole system of cadillac employer benefit plans has distorted the market. Couple that with the fact that people have premiums taken before the pay check is issued and consumers pay before the realization of cost gets to the brain.

As a self employed person, I purchase a high deductible plan and question every test and procedure as to whether it is really necessary.

Another big cost of the system comes from government mandated types of coverage of which there is a lot in our brand new shiny health care system. But never mind, it's way too complicated for someone like me to understand. Simple economics just doesn't apply here.
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  #32  
Old 09-23-2010, 10:12 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Actually they'd be even more mortified. Imagine the reaction of Dems if Alvin Greene would somehow win. The public rhetoric would be somewhat different but privately they would absolutely be mortified.
he won't so they will thankfully be saved from the mortification.
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  #33  
Old 09-23-2010, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
In my simplistic way (per oceana) I have attempted to point this out numerous times. The whole system of cadillac employer benefit plans has distorted the market. Couple that with the fact that people have premiums taken before the pay check is issued and consumers pay before the realization of cost gets to the brain.

As a self employed person, I purchase a high deductible plan and question every test and procedure as to whether it is really necessary.

Another big cost of the system comes from government mandated types of coverage of which there is a lot in our brand new shiny health care system. But never mind, it's way too complicated for someone like me to understand. Simple economics just doesn't apply here.
A man's got to know his limitations.
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  #34  
Old 09-23-2010, 10:18 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

Yes and the same holds for O'Donnell
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  #35  
Old 09-23-2010, 10:58 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Yes and the same holds for O'Donnell


Pray, what think ye of the Palinator?
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  #36  
Old 09-23-2010, 11:14 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by look View Post


Pray, what think ye of the Palinator?
I actually didn't think lowly of her during the 08 presidential campaign, despite her failings in the big interviews. My opinion of her as a possibly serious conservative voice dropped tremendously when she resigned as governor, and really plummeted when she endorsed O'Donnell.

That being said, her endorsement of Nikki Haley was very significant for Haley's victory, and I absolutely think the world of Nikki Haley as a voice for conservatism (and a rejection of SC's poisonous political establishment).
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  #37  
Old 09-23-2010, 11:38 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
I actually didn't think lowly of her during the 08 presidential campaign, despite her failings in the big interviews. My opinion of her as a possibly serious conservative voice dropped tremendously when she resigned as governor, and really plummeted when she endorsed O'Donnell.

That being said, her endorsement of Nikki Haley was very significant for Haley's victory, and I absolutely think the world of Nikki Haley as a voice for conservatism (and a rejection of SC's poisonous political establishment).
Thanks.
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  #38  
Old 09-23-2010, 01:09 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

So I finally finished this diavlog, so feel like commenting some more.

As just a general comment, I think this should answer some of the complaints about recent liberal on liberal backpatting, as this was reasonably smug too, even though I don't have any problems with either of the diavloggers.

I did find Stephen's generalization about "liberals" and how the Koch commentary represents their need for a corporate scapegoat a bit ridiculous. A relatively few people are all excited about the Koch's, but no more so than those on the right who get excited about their conspiracies du jour of which I could name of a number. Most liberals probably don't know or care who the Kochs are, despite the recent media coverage, however. And there's nothing either unique to liberals or contradictory about arguing that certain talking points and agenda items are pushed by those with a self-interest, whereas others are either falling for the rhetoric or simply allies due to other interests. Again, what else is the talk about how teachers unions or unions generally drive policy for the Dems, which was said in this very diavlog.

Personally, I think the excitement about the Kochs is odd, and I see no difficulty in believing that they are sincere and that their views do tend to support their economic interests. It's not that tough or unusual for people to see themselves on the side of the angels or to develop political philosophies which they sincerely hold which tend to line up with what they do and who they are. God knows I'm probably guilty of this (for the record, in a way that makes me more conservative on certain things), and yet I am still sincere about my views.

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
So they say that the Real Republicans were taken by surprise by the election of the crazy Tea Party candidates. But, who voted for the crazies? Weren't they Real Republicans?
Yeah, all this talk about Real and non-Real Republicans should be dropped. Fact is, there are some splits within the Republicans (like the Dems) and unsurprisingly people tend to see themselves as the "Real" side. On this very board we have people who try and claim libertarianism as the essence of Real Republicanism (or conservatism) and others who take an opposite view. (Note: I don't care what is the Real Republicanism -- I deny that there is some Platonic form of Republicanism, in fact -- but as a matter of intellectual history and consistency the notion of conservatism=libertarianism is ridiculous.)

What the Republicans are good at (irritatingly good in my view, but that would be my view) is managing to paper over the differences or convince people that they care less about the differences than some other issue based on which they hate the Dems. This was the culture war, which was the old way of channeling populism in a rightwing direction. It's interesting to see how the Tea Party is a new way to do the same. It seems incoherent to me, but I'm obviously not the intended audience.

Quote:
Then they talked about what cuts could be made to decrease the deficit. They said that there are many easy cuts, but they wouldn't amount to much, so they're not a solution.
I give them credit for this, they were reasonably honest both about the cuts that are being talked about most (and by the Tea Partiers) being basically irrelevant and in acknowledging that lots of their supporters really aren't in agreement with Reason on the issues. Too many people seem to think anti this heath care reform = pro free market, and the evidence is quite to the contrary, as these diavloggers seemed to recognize.

Quote:
for what I read elsewhere, this would be a significant measure to reduce the deficit. What's the story here?
I agree with you on this. They also didn't address in sufficient detail (although they touched on) how impossible politically the entitlement reform that they want would be. This gets to the criticism by liberals (no doubt condemned by Stephen) that the rhetoric employed by the Tea Party doesn't seem really coherent or related to a sensible political agenda, as they have flipped out about the deficit in a way which seems transparently political, but oppose raising taxes and, I imagine, any of the measures necessary to make a real difference.

One could also wonder how cutting entitlements and keeping old people in the job market a lot longer than now will affect recessionary pressures, but oh well.

Last edited by stephanie; 09-23-2010 at 01:13 PM..
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  #39  
Old 09-23-2010, 02:24 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Potentially Non-Evil Human Beings (Katherine Mangu-Ward & Stephen Spruiell)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
As just a general comment, I think this should answer some of the complaints about recent liberal on liberal backpatting, as this was reasonably smug too, even though I don't have any problems with either of the diavloggers.
Yes, this is a nice confirmation that the "smug" comment thrown at liberals is only party reinforcement line for the "liberals-are-intellectual-elitists-and detached-from-real-America" meme. Anyone can enter an intellectual comfort zone when they around their alikes and come across as smug. It's an empty criticism.
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