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  #1  
Old 11-04-2011, 06:02 PM
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Default Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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  #2  
Old 11-04-2011, 07:22 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

Oh goody! More opportunities to discuss high tech lynching and Steven Pinker's book.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2011, 07:48 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default I like the term illegal alien - its truthful.

And yet another fascinating DV on illegal immigration between a liberal who likes it and a Liberaltarian who Loves it.

I agree with KMU, I think its just selfish of us Americans with a 9 percent unemployment rate to expect either foreigners to respect our immigration laws or the Federal Government to control of our borders.

In fact, I like Mexico and Israel and think I'll just go live there (haven't decided which one) and skip all those boring Mexican or Israeli immigration laws.

I'm sure nobody will object.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2011, 07:54 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: I like the term illegal alien - its truthful.

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Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
In fact, I like Mexico and Israel and think I'll just go live there (haven't decided which one) and skip all those boring Mexican or Israeli immigration laws.

I'm sure nobody will object.
You might want to bring along some spare change in case you have any medical emergencies.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2011, 07:59 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: I like the term illegal alien - its truthful.

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Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
And yet another fascinating DV on illegal immigration between a liberal who likes it and a Liberaltarian who Loves it.

I agree with KMU, I think its just selfish of us Americans with a 9 percent unemployment rate to expect either foreigners to respect our immigration laws or the Federal Government to control of our borders.

In fact, I like Mexico and Israel and think I'll just go live there (haven't decided which one) and skip all those boring Mexican or Israeli immigration laws.

I'm sure nobody will object.
LOL This post is perfect.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2011, 08:21 AM
Rusty Rusty is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

Re: immigration - I wish these people would talk as much about African Americans with respect to immigration as they do with Herman Cain because it's a far more serious subject. As Harvard's George Borjas and Vanderbilt's Carol Swain have shown, the effects of illegal immigration on African-Americans has been terrible: not just money, but loss of political power, overcrowded schools and other social services, and empowering white racism. Only the Lord knows what the effect of giving a green card amensty to millions of no-skill or low-skill laborers and bringing them "out of the shadows" would have (but it's not really amnesty because illegal immigrants are all about citizenship and they'll have to "go to the end of the line" for that).

Thinking liberals such as Paul Krugman, Nick Kristof, and Thom Hartman have all bravely come out against reform because of how it hurts the working class in general and African-Americans in particular. It's time for progressives to show some patriotism and stand up for our poor first. I don't blame the illegal immigrants who come here looking for a better life, but that's not a moral claim that gives a right to hurt our most vulnerable citizens, and I'll be damned if I support it so I can save a few dollars on produce.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2011, 10:29 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
Re: immigration - I wish these people would talk as much about African Americans with respect to immigration as they do with Herman Cain because it's a far more serious subject. As Harvard's George Borjas and Vanderbilt's Carol Swain have shown, the effects of illegal immigration on African-Americans has been terrible: not just money, but loss of political power, overcrowded schools and other social services, and empowering white racism.
I get the part about over crowded schools and other social services but why did they throw in empowering white racism and loss of political power?

Quote:
Only the Lord knows what the effect of giving a green card amensty to millions of no-skill or low-skill laborers and bringing them "out of the shadows" would have (but it's not really amnesty because illegal immigrants are all about citizenship and they'll have to "go to the end of the line" for that).
That's not exactly my experience. The people I've known had no great desire to become citizens and always dreamed of going back to Mexico but they may not be typical. Also, most of the immigrants I know who hail from the south are anything but unskilled. They usually have at least two or three marketable skills, not the least of which is hardworkingness.

Quote:
Thinking liberals such as Paul Krugman, Nick Kristof, and Thom Hartman have all bravely come out against reform because of how it hurts the working class in general and African-Americans in particular. It's time for progressives to show some patriotism and stand up for our poor first. I don't blame the illegal immigrants who come here looking for a better life, but that's not a moral claim that gives a right to hurt our most vulnerable citizens, and I'll be damned if I support it so I can save a few dollars on produce
Why would coming out against reform be a brave act?...because it doesn't follow the progressive thinking that our inclusiveness should know no bounds? Do you think they might think that people might lump them in with the heartless right? Of course we all know that they are doing this for the right reasons while Republicans oppose immigration reform because they hate the poor. I agree, it's a dilemma.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2011, 07:31 AM
Rusty Rusty is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

The thing about illegal immigrants wanting citizenship and not jobs was my lame attempt at sarcasm -- I agree, it's all about jobs (especially when one knows your American-born children or grandchildren will be citizens -- they're who I care about, all I want is the permanent residency).

"Empowering racism" relates to who you pick for a job -- for eample say you're "mildly racist" and think African-Americans are lazy (like Mexico's former President Vincente Fox). But you don't have unlimited money to hire a worker. Illegal immigration allows you to hire an Eastern European or Latino where otherwise you might hire a black person.

The reason Krugman/Hartman/etc. are brave is because progressives have turned into the Tea Party on this issue! In other words, research and logic doesn't matter -- you can show them how much illegal immigration has hurt not just African-Americans but the working class in general, point to other nation's eperiences, etc. but will be painted as heartless and racist. Look at the response below to an obvious if painfull truth that many African-Americans today are undereducated and only have job opportunities in lowskill jobs - you're said to be championing a return to the good old days of the early-mid 1900's.
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2011, 12:14 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
The thing about illegal immigrants wanting citizenship and not jobs was my lame attempt at sarcasm -- I agree, it's all about jobs (especially when one knows your American-born children or grandchildren will be citizens -- they're who I care about, all I want is the permanent residency).
I'm a simple soul and I like the simple answer. Illegal immigration is illegal.
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2011, 10:03 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I'm a simple soul and I like the simple answer. Illegal immigration is illegal.
Immigration *was made* illegal. It's like saying during the Prohibition period that one shouldn't drink wine because wine is illegal. No one shouldn't drink wine because you'd risk being caught. Wine is not illegal in and of itself. As proof you just have to sip a glass today. I wish in a few years we'll be able to accept immigrants for what they do: come here to help. There's nothing illegal about that.
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  #11  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:44 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Immigration *was made* illegal. It's like saying during the Prohibition period that one shouldn't drink wine because wine is illegal. No one shouldn't drink wine because you'd risk being caught. Wine is not illegal in and of itself. As proof you just have to sip a glass today. I wish in a few years we'll be able to accept immigrants for what they do: come here to help. There's nothing illegal about that.
I think your analogy doesn't hold up.

I like immigrants, really I do, but I would think they come for more selfish reasons than to help and there's nothing wrong with that. So you think everyone who wants into the US should be allowed? Don't most countries have immigration laws? And lastly, surely if we have open borders there would have to be an end to welfare for newcomers, right?
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I think your analogy doesn't hold up.

I like immigrants, really I do, but I would think they come for more selfish reasons than to help and there's nothing wrong with that. So you think everyone who wants into the US should be allowed? Don't most countries have immigration laws? And lastly, surely if we have open borders there would have to be an end to welfare for newcomers, right?
My analogy holds up pretty well for the simple reason that immigrants did not use to be illegal. Crossing a political border in search of employment and in order to spend one's money on food and lodging is not even a "victim-less crime", it's a basic human freedom.

Yes, anyone willing to come should be let in, I think it would be a win-win for everyone. It worked pretty well before. Remember? "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"....

Most countries? Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?

What welfare for newcomers are you referring to?
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2011, 08:24 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by Unit View Post
My analogy holds up pretty well for the simple reason that immigrants did not use to be illegal. Crossing a political border in search of employment and in order to spend one's money on food and lodging is not even a "victim-less crime", it's a basic human freedom.

Yes, anyone willing to come should be let in, I think it would be a win-win for everyone. It worked pretty well before. Remember? "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"....

Most countries? Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?
You might want to look up the National Immigration Act (also called the National Origins Act), which governed US immigration policy between 1924 and 1965. America was exceptional during this period only if "exceptional" means the opposite of exceptional.

Last edited by Florian; 11-11-2011 at 08:27 AM..
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
You might want to look up the National Immigration Act (also called the National Origins Act), which governed US immigration policy between 1924 and 1965. America was exceptional during this period only if "exceptional" means the opposite of exceptional.
Right.

The US is becoming another country of "No, No Can't Do".
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  #15  
Old 11-05-2011, 11:06 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Re: immigration - I wish these people would talk as much about African Americans with respect to immigration as they do with Herman Cain because it's a far more serious subject. As Harvard's George Borjas and Vanderbilt's Carol Swain have shown, the effects of illegal immigration on African-Americans has been terrible: not just money, but loss of political power, overcrowded schools and other social services, and empowering white racism.
This is pretty rich. It's fine to talk about structural inequality when poor immigrants are to blame, but otherwise, it's "I got mine" and up by the bootstraps. Seriously though, it's a shame all those dishwashing and crop picking jobs are going to Mexicans instead of poor blacks. Ah, the good old days...
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  #16  
Old 11-06-2011, 07:21 AM
Rusty Rusty is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

eeeeeeeli: Before you laugh, take a look at the pictures of the workers who replace illegal immigrant factory workers after they've been raided: they're nearly always African-Americans. Nannies/wait staff/etc. were the jobs that poor African-Americans used to boot-strap themselves into the middle class. You don't think there was an unemployed Afrifcan-American in the early 90's recession anywhere in California willing to work as Arianna Huffington's well-paid nanny? The mid to late 1990's, when their was job demand pressure on the low skill end of the workforce spectrum, is the only period in my lifetime when African-Americans rose economically faster than the general population.
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  #17  
Old 11-06-2011, 10:25 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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eeeeeeeli: Before you laugh, take a look at the pictures of the workers who replace illegal immigrant factory workers after they've been raided: they're nearly always African-Americans. Nannies/wait staff/etc. were the jobs that poor African-Americans used to boot-strap themselves into the middle class. You don't think there was an unemployed Afrifcan-American in the early 90's recession anywhere in California willing to work as Arianna Huffington's well-paid nanny? The mid to late 1990's, when their was job demand pressure on the low skill end of the workforce spectrum, is the only period in my lifetime when African-Americans rose economically faster than the general population.
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job? Why should blacks have to do any of these jobs in order to get ahead when whites don't have to? In other words, why should these jobs be any more important to blacks than whites? Structural inequality is about much larger issues that face these communities, and the same pressures exist with or without immigrants.
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  #18  
Old 11-06-2011, 12:03 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job? Why should blacks have to do any of these jobs in order to get ahead when whites don't have to? In other words, why should these jobs be any more important to blacks than whites? Structural inequality is about much larger issues that face these communities, and the same pressures exist with or without immigrants.
Agree with your anaysis but many on the ground, streets, neighborhoods don't look at it that way. They see immigrants with jobs that they don't have. In fact, the black population was far from tepid voting about 50/50 on the anti-illegal immigration proposition 187 in California - the one that passed fairly handsomely but a judge later threw out.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 11-06-2011 at 12:15 PM..
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Agree with your anaysis but many on the ground, streets, neighborhoods don't look at it that way. They see immigrants with jobs that they don't have. In fact, the black population was far from tepid voting about 50/50 on the anti-illegal immigration proposition 187 in California - the one that passed fairly handsomely but a judge later threw out.
I see a lot of solidarity between African American and Latino working class populations. There is some rivalry and resentment (and vestigial racism on both sides), but to their great credit leaders and organizers from both ethnicities, sensitive to the history of civil rights and labor struggles and triumphs, have kept their eye on the prize, which is living wage jobs, opportunities and education for all.

The most resentment I see toward Latinos is not toward undocumented workers but rather toward workforce competitors for bilingual documented (and in some cases highly skilled) jobs. Most African Americans and "whites" are monolingual.
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  #20  
Old 11-06-2011, 12:21 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job? Why should blacks have to do any of these jobs in order to get ahead when whites don't have to? In other words, why should these jobs be any more important to blacks than whites? Structural inequality is about much larger issues that face these communities, and the same pressures exist with or without immigrants.
I know I'm hopelessly idealistic in the face of the hard-core realism that you folks on the left exhibit with all your charts and surveys but...a crappy minimum wage job is very often a path to a better paying middle class job. Of course one must be committed to doing a good job and looking for opportunities to become invaluable to your employer and going the extra mile.

I know, this is just silly in the face of structural inequality!!
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  #21  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:43 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I know I'm hopelessly idealistic in the face of the hard-core realism that you folks on the left exhibit with all your charts and surveys but...a crappy minimum wage job is very often a path to a better paying middle class job. Of course one must be committed to doing a good job and looking for opportunities to become invaluable to your employer and going the extra mile.
When people risk their lives to cross over the border to work our shitty jobs, they're doing so because our shit jobs are a path to a better future. If this weren't the case, they would've gotten the memo two decades ago. To that extent, I agree.

That said, I understand resentment against illegal immigrants in times of economic strife. I don't agree with it, but one cannot just change populist sentiment, at least, not in the short term. But the one thing that I'm really worried about is restricting immigration of highly skilled workers. As humorously alluded to up top, liberals and libertarians think immigration is a good thing. But I'm a pragmatic type. If we absolutely must keep out immigrants as a political compromise, I'd rather it be the unskilled.

Wealth creation by skilled immigrants is incalculable, e.g., Albert Einstein and Sergey Brin. But, also, our world power and standing is dependent on it. Currently, the U.S. controls the internet because all of the brain power is controlled by U.S. corporations, money and brains. Restricting brain power from becoming American just means they'll become a competing Chinese or Indian interest instead.

If there's a serious bone to pick with the Republican party, it's this one.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2011, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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When people risk their lives to cross over the border to work our shitty jobs, they're doing so because our shit jobs are a path to a better future. If this weren't the case, they would've gotten the memo two decades ago. To that extent, I agree.

That said, I understand resentment against illegal immigrants in times of economic strife. I don't agree with it, but one cannot just change populist sentiment, at least, not in the short term. But the one thing that I'm really worried about is restricting immigration of highly skilled workers. As humorously alluded to up top, liberals and libertarians think immigration is a good thing. But I'm a pragmatic type. If we absolutely must keep out immigrants as a political compromise, I'd rather it be the unskilled.

Wealth creation by skilled immigrants is incalculable, e.g., Albert Einstein and Sergey Brin. But, also, our world power and standing is dependent on it. Currently, the U.S. controls the internet because all of the brain power is controlled by U.S. corporations, money and brains. Restricting brain power from becoming American just means they'll become a competing Chinese or Indian interest instead.

If there's a serious bone to pick with the Republican party, it's this one.
Actually we need both if we want to pick the fruits of comparative advantage. If you keep the unskilled out then you have to waste precious "brain power" washing dishes and mowing lawns.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2011, 07:42 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Wealth creation by skilled immigrants is incalculable, e.g., Albert Einstein and Sergey Brin. But, also, our world power and standing is dependent on it. Currently, the U.S. controls the internet because all of the brain power is controlled by U.S. corporations, money and brains. Restricting brain power from becoming American just means they'll become a competing Chinese or Indian interest instead.

If there's a serious bone to pick with the Republican party, it's this one.
I agree with this. Particularly in the sciences and medicine, we should really streamline the process between H1-B and naturalization.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2011, 08:09 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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I agree with this. Particularly in the sciences and medicine, we should really streamline the process between H1-B and naturalization.
Wow, we agree on something.
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2011, 12:49 AM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job? Why should blacks have to do any of these jobs in order to get ahead when whites don't have to? In other words, why should these jobs be any more important to blacks than whites? Structural inequality is about much larger issues that face these communities, and the same pressures exist with or without immigrants.
Sigh. Geez, Eli. Low-skill jobs will always exist and for those who, in fact, have low skills, having a job of any kind is surely better than life on the dole. It isn't a matter of getting a middle class lifestyle on the minimum wage, it's about giving one's kids a shot at such a life.

To decry the fact that there are such jobs and people willing to do them is perverse. One might as well wish we could all be CEOs.
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2011, 07:29 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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One might as well wish we could all be CEOs.
God forbid!
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2011, 12:59 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by rfrobison View Post
Sigh. Geez, Eli. Low-skill jobs will always exist and for those who, in fact, have low skills, having a job of any kind is surely better than life on the dole. It isn't a matter of getting a middle class lifestyle on the minimum wage, it's about giving one's kids a shot at such a life.

To decry the fact that there are such jobs and people willing to do them is perverse. One might as well wish we could all be CEOs.
Your comment seems somewhat unrelated to the specifics of what Eli was saying. Rusty suggested that immigration should be seen as contrary to the interests of African-Americans, since it allows racist types to hire immigrants and not black people. He suggested that the jobs being taken were otherwise going to blacks. He then suggested this was why fewer blacks are making it to the middle class now, since the low-income jobs are being taken by immigrants.

Eli objected to this framing of the problem for a variety of reasons. I'd actually expect you to object to the framing of the problem as well, so it's weird that you jumped on Eli and not all the anti-immigration arguments.

But perhaps I misremembered your views.
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2011, 10:15 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
Your comment seems somewhat unrelated to the specifics of what Eli was saying. Rusty suggested that immigration should be seen as contrary to the interests of African-Americans, since it allows racist types to hire immigrants and not black people. He suggested that the jobs being taken were otherwise going to blacks. He then suggested this was why fewer blacks are making it to the middle class now, since the low-income jobs are being taken by immigrants.

Eli objected to this framing of the problem for a variety of reasons. I'd actually expect you to object to the framing of the problem as well, so it's weird that you jumped on Eli and not all the anti-immigration arguments.

But perhaps I misremembered your views.
That's pretty much right. I don't think we ought to be worrying about whether enough blacks are losing low-paying jobs to immigrants, and rather how to help them achieve parity with whites. I really don't like the idea that these are "black" jobs.

As for people actually living in poverty, making poverty wages - that's an enormous problem I don't have an answer for, yet still think is a moral issue, and a valid critique of the structure of our economy and society. It is a "rough edges of Capitalism" issue, which I think we all ought to at least agree is an unfortunate consequence of our current system. I would like to think that while we may not have any good solution yet, that we are still concerned and would like to attempt to at least try and fix some of the problem. Personally, I'm especially concerned about generational poverty and structural issues that all but condemn millions of Americans to lives poor in social and human capital.
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:00 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job? Why should blacks have to do any of these jobs in order to get ahead when whites don't have to? In other words, why should these jobs be any more important to blacks than whites? Structural inequality is about much larger issues that face these communities, and the same pressures exist with or without immigrants.
The majority of people on minimum wage are not black and are not poor. Minimum wage cuts out black youth from the labor market completely. Also if you look at each cohort, say ages 20-29, 30-39 etc... then you get smaller and smaller proportions of minimum wage workers.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2011, 04:34 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Here's the thing though, a low-paying job isn't how you "bootstrap" your way into the middle class. Why would spending 40 hours a week making minimum wage as a gardener, dishwasher or picking lettuce be any kind of path to a better paying, middle class job?
There is no job with a limited labor pool that pays minimum wage. Labor is a market like any other. If you flood a market with cheap goods, or cheap labor, you drive down wages in the particular market. Unions used to know that.
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  #31  
Old 11-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Rusty Rusty is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

A low paying job provides significant opportunities compared to -no- job (check out the unemployment rate for young, uneducated African-Americans). Also, many of those low-skilled jobs are not all that low paying (e.g., Arianna Huffington's nanny in the 1990s). Again, check out George Borjas' research at Harvard on how illegal immigration has increased African-American unemployment and depressed wages -- it's not the only factor of course, but given our nation's history we owe it to only grant green cards for those jobs that Americans *truly* will not do. That's simply not what these "reform" proposals are about.
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  #32  
Old 11-05-2011, 09:25 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

Better still is when libs call anyone respecting immigration laws racist, champion the 20mil+ illegals and then haul out charts complaining of growing income disparity.

Might be time to get the president of a country south of here with strict immigration policies to stand before the Congress and lecture us on compassion again, we just don't get it.
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  #33  
Old 11-05-2011, 10:03 PM
db63 db63 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

azar gat wrote steven pinker's book years ago. it is titled "war in human civilization."
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2011, 01:02 AM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Will Oakland anarchists sink the entire Occupy movement?

Not if OWS'ers wear white head bands or some other visible insignia to signify their commitment to the principles of non-violent civil disobedience.

Vandals wearing these insignia should be subject to citizen arrest and/or marking with spray paint. OWS'ers must defend their image in the public media.
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  #35  
Old 11-06-2011, 08:08 AM
jummy jummy is offline
 
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Default Re: Will Oakland anarchists sink the entire Occupy movement?

The extremists are the movement. They will not sink the movement, the media paints it,s own positive picture of the movement over and around the extremists.

Actual LA Times headline : "Oakland Engulfed by Mostly Peaceful Protest".
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  #36  
Old 11-06-2011, 12:15 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Will Oakland anarchists sink the entire Occupy movement?

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Originally Posted by BornAgainDemocrat View Post
Not if OWS'ers wear white head bands or some other visible insignia to signify their commitment to the principles of non-violent civil disobedience.

Vandals wearing these insignia should be subject to citizen arrest and/or marking with spray paint. OWS'ers must defend their image in the public media.
Something about this makes me think you jest.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:10 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

Illegal immigration has always been a win win for the dems and repubs. The former get their votes and oversee the inordinantly high amount of social services (higher than the native population who ostensibly would have easier access to) they command. The latter which mostly represents business interests gets all that cheap labor that the hotel/restaurant, manufacturers, and agricultural say they cannot do without.

With the structurally high unemployment that seems to be resistant to government measures to lower it throws a wrench in this 2 party win-win strategy. The populous is getting weary of having foreigners take their jobs whether it be by in or outsourcing. Comprehensive Immigration reform has been DOA since GW, McCain, and Kennedy tried to pass it in '08. President Obama runs around giving it lip service to no avail. He says the repubs are obstructing his efforts whereas some dem senators don't have his back either. Afterall. in '08 when he had more dem senators all it gained in the vote was 46 far shy of 60 needed to pass.

What the future portends on this issue of illegal immigration is hard to say. In the near term the public will stand against it regardless of what their leaders say.

Last edited by bkjazfan; 11-06-2011 at 10:16 AM..
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  #38  
Old 11-07-2011, 02:17 PM
DWAnderson DWAnderson is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

I'm quite sympathetic to a guest worker program and other proposals that would increase legal immigration (and even to continuing to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrant worker as a second best approach), but both Katherine and Andrew seem to misunderstand a some key facts:

1. Herman Cain's electrified fence. Is there any evidence he wanted to kill those going over the fence? There are electrified fences within the US that protect private property and they don't kill trespassers. Why would this be any different. I had assumed the negative response in the media to Cain's proposal was that it was silly (expensive and not effective) not that he wanted to kill people.

2. Obama deportation numbers. The numbers look greater for Obama that they really are because this administration is including those who leave voluntarily. This seems clearly political, but in any event, these numbers are not as bad (or good) as they seem. See http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcem...gers-lawmakers

3. Mitt Romney employing illegals. I don't think Mitt didn't want to hire illegals, because he wanted to "pander." It is true he had not substantive reason not to hire them, but I took his main reason to be that he did not want the fact used against him as a candidate. That is an honest and unobjectionable response. The objectionable part is his attempting to use the issue against Rick Perry.

4. "Illegals." There are at least two unmentioned reasons why this formulation of "illegal immigrant/alien" has obtained currency: (a) it is easier to say and write than "illegal immigrant" (see my text in 3 above); and (b) it is a response to the anti-enforcement crowd's use of the term "Undocumented immigrant" implying that that only issue is that someone forgot a document, not that they have violated the law.

One last point not discussed, could it be that the reason Texas has had higher than average job growth is the easier access to Mexican immigrant labor in Texas? Imagine, labor supply might actually have something to do with jobs growth! See http://www.caseymulligan.blogspot.com/
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  #39  
Old 11-07-2011, 02:42 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Let's Talk Pizza (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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Originally Posted by DWAnderson View Post
1. Herman Cain's electrified fence. Is there any evidence he wanted to kill those going over the fence? There are electrified fences within the US that protect private property and they don't kill trespassers. Why would this be any different. I had assumed the negative response in the media to Cain's proposal was that it was silly (expensive and not effective) not that he wanted to kill people.
He said he wanted to put a sign on the fence saying "this might kill you."
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  #40  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:40 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default (Apologies if this was already answered)

Quote:
Have deportations alienated Obama’s Latino supporters?
No.
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