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  #1  
Old 07-30-2008, 09:34 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Pakistani Path Dependency

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  #2  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:01 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default The Karadzic Gambit

Hurlburt's Serbia's Karadzic Gambit is another example of the question Wonderment started. Unfortunately, Hurlburt set up the question (did you read the thread, Heather?), but Farley takes the response away from the issue of the ICC.

I would say this supports Goldberg's view rather than Lee's.

I can also attest to the beauty of recent translations of Dostoyevsky. Not only the vocabulary better translated, but the flow of conversation is improved.
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  #3  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:04 AM
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Default The Heather Blessing

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/131...4:47&out=44:55
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:37 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: The Heather Blessing

I prefer not to wait for any being's blessing. Two related scenes from Thirteen Days sum up my attitude:

Quote:
"If the sun rises in the morning, it is only because of men of goodwill. And that's all there is between us and the Devil."
That line, and the latter scene where Kenny O'Donnell's kid blurts out, "What's wrong with Daddy?" always choke me up.
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  #5  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: The Heather Blessing

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I prefer not to wait for any being's blessing.
I take 'em where I can get 'em.
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  #6  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:21 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Path Dependency and F-16s to Pakistan

I thought this was one of the most helpful sections of a diavlog in a week at least. Then again, I'm a Poli Sci type. And, Farley's discussion of path dependency helps elucidate the F-16 decision, which on the surface seems such an awful maneuver. Cheers for Senators Biden and Lugar!
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  #7  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Path Dependency and F-16s to Pakistan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I thought this was one of the most helpful sections of a diavlog in a week at least. Then again, I'm a Poli Sci type. And, Farley's discussion of path dependency helps elucidate the F-16 decision, which on the surface seems such an awful maneuver. Cheers for Senators Biden and Lugar!
I was disappointed that "path dependency" turned out not to be an integral calculus joke. I felt cheated.

But the rest of the diavlog was quite good. It was kind of like a UN Plaza for me -- so much new stuff that I can't really comment on or debate any specific points.

This may come as a relief to some.
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  #8  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:08 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Path Dependency and F-16s to Pakistan

Math! Egads! Hopefully there'll be none of that here! Carroll and Althouse on calculus? I'd hack the site!

After that literary excursion into Dostoyevsky, Batman, and 24, my head started spinning, too. I almost wish I had gone to the Patterson School for Master's study!
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  #9  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:12 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Path Dependency and F-16s to Pakistan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
Math! Egads! Hopefully there'll be none of that here! Carroll and Althouse on calculus? I'd hack the site!
LOL!

Quote:
After that literary excursion into Dostoyevsky ...
Meant to say something about that before. That was an intriguing recommendation they made, and that you seconded, about the new translations. I may have to take you all up on it. I've read a couple of the titles mentioned -- a Russian Lit class in high school still brings back fond memories -- but it's probably time to hit them again, and it's nice to have this added incentive.
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  #10  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:23 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Yeah Hurlburt is right. The Penguin edition stuff is like the caricature of dry philosophizing with a little story thrown in. But, the new translations are more like fly-on-the-wall transcripts of people's conversations. Dostoyevsky was really talented with dialogue. Another way to look at it is to imagine oneself as the character's psychiatrist listening to the patient.

I also recall someone saying that you could identify a person's type by knowing whether he read Tolstoy's War and Peace or Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamozov. Sorry, Tolstoy!
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  #11  
Old 07-31-2008, 05:46 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Quote:
I also recall someone saying that you could identify a person's type by knowing whether he read Tolstoy's War and Peace or Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamozov. Sorry, Tolstoy!
Turgenev all the way, dude. And Chekhov for short stories, although Tolstoy's short fiction is pretty awesome too.

This was a very haute culture conversation for us beer-swilling yokels.

Heather's nerd rating soars given her use of both "inchoate" and "risible" in a casual chat about Batman and Belgrade. I was getting nostalgic for the late William F. Buckley, whose eryoooodDItion was hypnotic.
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:24 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Fathers and Sons was an easier read than Dostoyevsky, I agree. But, for sheer page-flipping quality, no one beats Mikhail Lermontov and A Hero of Our Time (which I read in college in Russian). It's a cliche, I know, but it should be a movie. I have fond memories of Dostoyevsky, because I carried The Brothers Karamazov to the only civil disobedience gig when I was arrested. Yevgeny Zamyatin was also a college favorite. And then, there's Mikhail Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita, a acidly hilarious read. I studied Russian with a student of Nabokov's, who I never really did take to. Too aesthetic, no spleen.

Unfortunately, when I joined the US Army and passed the language test, I got Korean instead of Russian, my first choice, because of my scores. I recall the clerk looking at me, and rationalizing it, "The Soviet Union fell. Russian's no longer important!" I wonder how much that guy pays for heating and air conditioning now.

Who's heard of Korea?

Last edited by Baltimoron; 07-31-2008 at 06:27 AM..
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  #13  
Old 07-31-2008, 11:41 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Heather's nerd rating soars given her use of both "inchoate" and "risible" in a casual chat about Batman and Belgrade. I was getting nostalgic for the late William F. Buckley, whose eryoooodDItion was hypnotic.
Better hope Heather doesn't read that comparison! She'll slap your face!

But seriously ...

One thing that impresses me about someone's intellect is when he or she uses unusual words and they don't jump out. It means to me that the words were chosen precisely and appropriately, and didn't come off as pretentious. Heather has this quality, and WFB did too, to the extent that I remember him.

Come the revolution, those others who use utilize will be first up against the wall. Next up will be everyone who says differential when difference is correct.

I'd say something about peruse instead of read, too, but that might come off as just a little too much of a liberal-wanting-to-suppress-conservative-speech, and we can't have that.

Okay, that wasn't really serious, either.
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  #14  
Old 07-31-2008, 12:24 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

On a related note, I always think about one of my favorite bumpers stickers: Eschew Obfuscation.

At first I liked it for what we might call first-order reasons -- using 50-cent words to say that you shouldn't use 50-cent words.

But then the more I thought about it, the more I wondered, is there any way to say what this bumper sticker says more precisely and more succinctly? And so now I think there a second-order appeal that's opposite to the first -- the bumper sticker both makes the exhortation and provides an example of when 50-cent words aren't obfuscatory and their use is appropriate.

Okay, I hate when people analyze jokes, too, so I'll leave it there.
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  #15  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Quote:
On a related note, I always think about one of my favorite bumpers stickers: Eschew Obfuscation.
I saw "Talk nerdy to me" yesterday, which I thought was pretty cute.

On sending people to the firing squad for language misutilizations, I think the conservatives should go after people who answer, "How are you?" with "Fine. How about yourself?"

It cuts across class lines, so they could arrest a lot of poor minority people.
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  #16  
Old 08-03-2008, 10:25 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Buy Dostoyevsky a Drink for Me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
On sending people to the firing squad for language misutilizations, I think the conservatives should go after people who answer, "How are you?" with "Fine. How about yourself?"
LOL! I missed seeing this when you put it up.

I hate the misused myself more than the misused yourself, but I take your point.[/QUOTE]
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  #17  
Old 08-03-2008, 10:33 PM
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Default Buy Another Drink

This seems worth noting in this thread:

Quote:
Aleksander Solzhenitsyn Dead At 89.
BBC story, h/t: HuffPo.

A good man, to say the least. I read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch, and liked it a lot. Can't remember which translation, though.

[added] NYT just posted their obit. I haven't read it yet, but they always do these well. Looks like they have a slideshow, too.
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  #18  
Old 07-31-2008, 05:07 AM
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Default Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

What Heather fails to consider in her analysis of alleged Euro-hypocrisy on rendition is the possibility that Europeans A) became increasingly aware of rendition practices as they were implemented by Bush (as many Americans did), B) became more sensitive to the immorality of outsourcing torture (as many Americans did) and C) decided that any participation at any level made them complicit in crimes against humanity.

Will Obama denounce and reject rendition as practiced by Clinton and Bush? Doubtful. Will that make him complicit in torture?
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  #19  
Old 07-31-2008, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
What Heather fails to consider in her analysis of alleged Euro-hypocrisy on rendition is the possibility that Europeans A) became increasingly aware of rendition practices as they were implemented by Bush (as many Americans did), B) became more sensitive to the immorality of outsourcing torture (as many Americans did) and C) decided that any participation at any level made them complicit in crimes against humanity.
Heather does distinguish between the European leaders who looked the other way even during Clinton, as opposed to the public outcry once it became known.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/131...7:29&out=19:15

Quote:
Will Obama denounce and reject rendition as practiced by Clinton and Bush? Doubtful.
Agreed.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:28 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by look View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Will Obama denounce and reject rendition as practiced by Clinton and Bush? Doubtful. Will that make him complicit in torture?
Agreed.
From "BARACK OBAMA: THE WAR WE NEED TO WIN" (PDF | HTML):

Quote:
4. RESTORING OUR VALUES

We cannot win a war unless we maintain the high ground and keep the people on our side. But because the administration decided to take the low road, our troops have more enemies. Because the administration cast aside international norms that reflect American values, we are less able to advance our values. When I am president. . . . we will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

Barack Obama would restore Americas standing, reputation and authority in the world. As president, Obama will:

End the Use of Torture and Extreme Rendition. Military and intelligence experts agree that torture is not an effective means of interrogation, and our using it threatens American troops serving abroad. From both a moral standpoint and a practical standpoint, torture is wrong. Barack Obama will end the use torture without exception. He also will eliminate the practice of extreme rendition, where we outsource our torture to other countries.
From "RENEWING U.S. LEADERSHIP IN THE AMERICAS" (PDF | HTML):

Quote:
Support for Democracy Begins at Home: Barack Obama knows that our greatest tool in advancing democracy is our own example. This asset, however, has been severely damaged in recent years, especially by Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and by the failure of our leaders to accept accountability for these acts. Barack Obama will hold the United States to the same standards that we demand of others. That means ending torture without equivocation (including so-called enhanced interrogation techniques), ending extraordinary rendition and indefinite detentions; restoring habeas corpus; and closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay.
Now, I suspect you'll both just respond, "But how can we be sure we should believe him?" But that's what the man says on his official campaign web site.
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  #21  
Old 07-31-2008, 01:33 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

It also depends on what is meant by "extreme rendition." Hey sounds like he's saying that we won't ship people to another country for the purpose of torture. But would he be opposed to shipping them there for intense questioning after getting "assurances" that the person wouldn't be tortured? If he makes that distinction, he's no different than Bush and Clinton.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2008, 01:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

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Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
It also depends on what is meant by "extreme rendition." Hey sounds like he's saying that we won't ship people to another country for the purpose of torture. But would he be opposed to shipping them there for intense questioning after getting "assurances" that the person wouldn't be tortured? If he makes that distinction, he's no different than Bush and Clinton.
The second excerpt seems to go farther than that, given its presentation as an item in a list, distinct from torture:

Quote:
That means ending torture without equivocation (including so-called enhanced interrogation techniques), ending extraordinary rendition and indefinite detentions; restoring habeas corpus; and closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay.
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2008, 01:43 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

Ah, I skimmed over that last section, my bad.

However, I remain skeptical of anything that a politician claims on his campaign website. I don't mean that as snark, but people backpedal A LOT from what they may say in the early days of a campaign, perhaps especially after they receive their first national security briefing as President.

Given what he said about his foreign policy in the 2000 campaign, I don't think even Bush would've believed what it became just a year later. Things change.

Last edited by Thus Spoke Elvis; 07-31-2008 at 01:45 PM..
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:02 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
Ah, I skimmed over that last section, my bad.
No prob. And thanks for acknowledging that.

Quote:
However, I remain skeptical of anything that a politician claims on his campaign website. I don't mean that as snark, but people backpedal A LOT from what they may say in the early days of a campaign, perhaps especially after they receive their first national security briefing as President.
Can't really disagree there. It comes down to your sense of how much you believe the promise matters to the candidate and how much you trust the candidate in general.

I'll say this, though. The McCain web site does not mention the word rendition at all in this context. The only places the word appears are several instances where it refers to singing and one place where some commenter on the McCain blog is griping about the practice. (An Obamabot, no doubt. ;^) ) Similarly for the phrases "secret prisons", "overseas prisons", and "held in overseas" -- if there's any mention at all, it's only in a user comment under the blog section.

So, if this is an important issue to you, you have the choice between one candidate who makes official statements condemning the practice and vowing to do away with it, and another who has nothing at all to say on the matter, suggesting the status quo is fine by him.
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:31 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Rendition, European complicity and the future of rendition under Obama

Quote:
Now, I suspect you'll both just respond, "But how can we be sure we should believe him?" But that's what the man says on his official campaign web site.
No, I will retract and apologize.

I didn't realize Obama had gone that far in rejecting ER (in the second version; I agree there is wiggle room in the first).

There is the possibility that he will flip-flop, but he won't be able to if the Dem. Congress acts on the campaign promise and enacts a tough law banning ALL "enhanced interrogation" and all extraditions, renditions and transfers without due process and human rights guarantees.
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:40 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default "Is International Justice the Enemy of Peace?"

Human Rights Watch founder Aryeh Neier asks that question about the ICC in the wake of Karadzic's arrest:

Quote:
We cannot rule out the possibility that doing justice in Darfur will make it more difficult to achieve peace there. Justice and peace are independent values. Each is immensely important in its own right. In the long run, doing justice seems a way to contribute to peace, but one cannot be sure that things will work out that way every time.

On the basis of the record so far, however, some skepticism seems in order over the claim that justice will obstruct peace. After all, the conflict in Darfur has been underway for five and a half years. An estimated 300,000 people have been killed by forces ultimately controlled by al-Bashir, and an estimated 2.7 million have been forcibly displaced. Just a week before the indictment, seven African Union and UN peacekeepers were killed and 22 injured during an ambush by well-armed militiamen. No peace settlement is under serious consideration. So what basis is there for suggesting that the indictment of al-Bashir is obstructing a settlement? What settlement is there to obstruct?

It should be noted that the Darfur case was referred to the ICC by the UN Security Council. The treaty establishing the ICC empowers the Security Council to delay a prosecution if this is needed to bring about a peace settlement. So critics of the indictment should at least be made to bear the burden of demonstrating to the Security Council that a peace settlement is likely if they wish the Council to act.
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  #27  
Old 07-31-2008, 09:30 AM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default Re:Dark Knight

Heather and Robert:

Your next Blogginghead discussion:

Movies that portray the CIA middle managers as a bunch of killers.

1. Bourne 1, 2, 3

2. Three Days of the Condor

What does the CIA actually do when their agents go bad?
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:22 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Dark Knight

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
Heather and Robert:

Your next Blogginghead discussion:

Movies that portray the CIA middle managers as a bunch of killers.

1. Bourne 1, 2, 3

2. Three Days of the Condor

What does the CIA actually do when their agents go bad?
Including I hope the tendency lately to have evil american intellignce managers bear a physical resemblance to Cheney.

Won't hear me critiquing calculus, I struggled to maintain B's through partial differential equations at Cal Poly.
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2008, 11:48 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Dark Knight

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Won't hear me critiquing calculus, I struggled to maintain B's through partial differential equations at Cal Poly.
No shame in that. I always thought PDE stood for Painfully Difficult Equation.

I could write an ODE.
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  #30  
Old 07-31-2008, 11:42 AM
Winspur Winspur is offline
 
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Default Hurlburt on EU

Having spent a long time in Britain recently, I think Heather is absolutely right in predicting an upswelling of anti-Brussels populism. Only a handful of EU nations (Belgium, Spain, Greece) have any kind of mass loyalty to the government in Brussels, and the European elite shows little interest in listening to its own people (turnout for the European Parliament elections is abysmal).
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:51 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hurlburt on EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winspur View Post
... the European elite shows little interest in listening to its own people (turnout for the European Parliament elections is abysmal).
Do you interpret this more as dislike or apathy? That is, do people not turn out for the elections just because they think the results won't affect them personally, much like the stereotypical American non-voter? Or are they trying to register active dislike by not participating?
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  #32  
Old 07-31-2008, 12:39 PM
Winspur Winspur is offline
 
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Default Re: Hurlburt on EU

FYI the turnout for 2004 European Parliament elections was 45.6%.

There is a lot of apathy, yes, but in the UK at any rate you can find much active hostility to the EU. This doesn't really translate into national political change (many people in Northern England, for example, don't give a f*** about Europe but continue to vote for a Europhile Labour government out of class-based loyalties).

I think the EU is at a tipping point with regards to cohesion (Bulgaria was just stripped of its subsidies due to its not tackling corruption).
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  #33  
Old 07-31-2008, 01:34 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Hurlburt on EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winspur View Post
FYI the turnout for 2004 European Parliament elections was 45.6%.
This seems similar to US turnout rates, especially if one looks at the mid-terms (2002 | 2006).

Thanks for the rest of your thoughts, too.
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  #34  
Old 07-31-2008, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Pakistani Path Dependency

Isn't the main reason Europeans support Obama over McCain because they believe Obama will be less likely to vigorously assert U.S. interests? Europeans have their own interests and we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that Europeans are somehow purely neutral evaluators of these two candidates.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:38 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Pakistani Path Dependency

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Originally Posted by JerseyBoy View Post
Isn't the main reason Europeans support Obama over McCain because they believe Obama will be less likely to vigorously assert U.S. interests?
FUD spin of the day.
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  #36  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:55 PM
wssjunku wssjunku is offline
 
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Default Re: Pakistani Path Dependency

Jerseyboy:
Quote:
Isn't the main reason Europeans support Obama over McCain because they believe Obama will be less likely to vigorously assert U.S. interests? Europeans have their own interests and we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that Europeans are somehow purely neutral evaluators of these two candidates.
Bravo. But some of the arguments made by Democrats and others on the left would be undermined by acknowledging that possibility.

It's been said many times that the Europeans would be disappointed by Obama if he gets elected because, after all, he would still be the American president, and obliged to defend America's interests. I hope this proves to be true. He (and we) will be made fools of if it isn't.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:05 PM
MoodyLoner MoodyLoner is offline
 
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Default Which translations?

Does anyone have any idea of exactly which Russian translations Heather was referring to? There seem to be several versions.

Thanks
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  #38  
Old 08-07-2008, 09:37 AM
HeatherH HeatherH is offline
 
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Default Re: Which translations?

Steve,

Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky are the translators I was thinking of. And let me also put in a word for The Idiot, the most underrated but in some ways the most approachable of Dostoevsky's novels. Not to get all Buckley-ian on you guys again, but it very clearly sets out Dostoevsky's ideas about the frailty of humanity and the power of love.

(Sorry, I seem to be doing something wrong with the link here.)

Heather
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  #39  
Old 08-07-2008, 03:28 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Which translations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherH View Post
Steve,

Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky are the translators I was thinking of. And let me also put in a word for The Idiot, the most underrated but in some ways the most approachable of Dostoevsky's novels. Not to get all Buckley-ian on you guys again, but it very clearly sets out Dostoevsky's ideas about the frailty of humanity and the power of love.

(Sorry, I seem to be doing something wrong with the link here.)

Heather

Looks like you've got an extra "http//" near the front. Here is the same link, for everyone's clicking convenience, and to save you some editing.
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Brendan
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:51 AM
MoodyLoner MoodyLoner is offline
 
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Default Re: Which translations?

Awesome, thank you very much.
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