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  #241  
Old 04-01-2009, 07:54 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
It's hard for me to say. I haven't really spent much time on more conservative blogs. This was the first site that I ever came to that had a fair amount of back/forth between both sides. I enjoy Bobby's posts, and MVAntony's as well as TaraDavis (when she doesn't get too crazy Libertarian;-) and JuliainIA (on religion, especially.) There's other's that I can't remember off the top of head. And even some of the crazier guys, make good points here and there.

And even though they are also participants, Will Wilkinson, David Frum, Eli Lake have all been known to drop in with some high quality arguments. I wish more conservative commenters would follow their examples of fighting on the basis of ideas rather conspiracy claims.

Adam/GC was exceptional in that he not only would often make me think about something from a different perspective, AND for the longest time he eschewed the take-the-ball-and-go-home whining that is so prevalent among conservative commenters surrounded by liberals. And then, towards the end, even he started parroting this complaint to Bob, on a regular basis, and then effectively took his ball and...

I will say that I don't quite understand when people claim they want pushback/vigorous debate from both sides, then complain about the fact that one side continually pushes back, so the aggrieved party runs back to some other blog where there is little/no pushback at all!! As I said in an earlier post, I think the victim-mentality that was once helpful for the GOP when they were truly a minority upstart party who needed to gather the forces, has become a reflexive reaction that many of them when things don't go their way. This is what makes the stupid liberal-media/academia wolfcrying so annoying to most of us on the left.

I read many blogs for content, but this is the only site where I actually spend the time to engage in comments. If there are tons of thoughtful conservative minds wasting away on sites like RedState, I wish they would come here and make this excellent site even better.
I'm just adding a shout to a few other conservative commenters who strike me as value added members of this community:

Thus Spoke Elvis, Exeus99, gwlaw99, JIM3CH, sugarkang, jh in sd, Namazu, Hans Gruber, Chef, rfrobison, and of course razib, who has gone on to be a front pager at this point.
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  #242  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:05 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Wow. Only had a chance to read a couple pages, but this is great. Has he written anything since?
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  #243  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:06 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
It's hard for me to say. I haven't really spent much time on more conservative blogs. This was the first site that I ever came to that had a fair amount of back/forth between both sides. I enjoy Bobby's posts, and MVAntony's as well as TaraDavis (when she doesn't get too crazy Libertarian;-) and JuliainIA (on religion, especially.) There's other's that I can't remember off the top of head. And even some of the crazier guys, make good points here and there.

And even though they are also participants, Will Wilkinson, David Frum, Eli Lake have all been known to drop in with some high quality arguments. I wish more conservative commenters would follow their examples of fighting on the basis of ideas rather conspiracy claims.

Adam/GC was exceptional in that he not only would often make me think about something from a different perspective, but for the longest time he eschewed the take-the-ball-and-go-home whining that is so prevalent among conservative commenters surrounded by liberals. Towards the end though, even he started parroting this complaint to Bob, on a regular basis, and then effectively took his ball and...

I will say that I don't quite understand when people claim they want pushback/vigorous debate from both sides, then complain about the fact that one side continually pushes back, so the aggrieved party runs back to some other blog where there is little/no pushback at all!! As I said in an earlier post, I think the victim-mentality that was once helpful for the GOP when they were truly a minority upstart party who needed to gather the forces, has become a reflexive reaction that many of them when things don't go their way. This is what makes the stupid liberal-media/academia wolfcrying so annoying to most of us on the left.
I think everything you said is basically true, but you have to understand what it's like to be on their side. There's a Harlem Globetrotters vs Washington Generals quality to the left-right debate in this forum, and the side that always gets its ass kicked is less happy and less inclined to either (a) stick around and keep taking it on the chin, or (b) stick around and participate constructively. I don't want to give our side too much credit, either, because I think the "success" our side enjoys is due to a significant extent to the contributions of one participant.

That said: There ARE a fair number of good rightwing commenters here, though they don't post with any kind of frequency.

Something else worth considering: There really aren't any belligerant blowhards here on the left. All the disruptive and abusive behavior comes from angry wingnuts, e.g., whatfur, kidneystones, etc. I think this is probably due to the fact that the liberals feel like they are on the winning side, while the conservatives feel like they can't keep up or compete.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 04-01-2009 at 08:09 PM..
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  #244  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:07 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Yes. Thanks Jeff. Good additions. My memory for names is shoddy at best, especially if they haven't been around in a while.
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  #245  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:12 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I'm just adding a shout to a few other conservative commenters who strike me as value added members of this community:

Thus Spoke Elvis, Exeus99, gwlaw99, JIM3CH, sugarkang, jh in sd, Namazu, Hans Gruber, Chef, rfrobison, and of course razib, who has gone on to be a front pager at this point.
Good list; thanks for doing that. There really are a good number of smart, capable conservatives here. The "problem," if you want to call it that, is merely one of frequency. They don't hang out here. The crowd of regulars who live on BHTV tend to be overwhelmingly [s]liberal[/s] not conservative.
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  #246  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:14 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Wow. Only had a chance to read a couple pages, but this is great. Has he written anything since?
Pretty good collection on his site, it looks like.

Note that lots of articles appear under the Nonfiction tab, not the Column tab, confusingly.
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  #247  
Old 04-01-2009, 08:16 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Exhibit A:

Quote:
currently active users viewing this thread: AemJeff, Twinswords, BJKeefe, Bloggin Noggin, Uncle Ebeneezer
I was just about to say the exact same thing. If everyone on that list was around all the time, I think the balance would be fairly close to 50/50.
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  #248  
Old 04-01-2009, 09:22 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
The article was written in June 2006. I'd love to see an addendum from him, in light of Bush's plummeting popularity, the right now denying they ever liked Bush, Sarah Palin's non-stop whining about the media, the current Congressional GOP members, Rush, Norm Coleman, etc., etc.
This isn't by Baker, but it certainly fits the bill: Glenn Greenwald, in part of a John Cole post on recent right-wing whining. Hilarious.

Quote:
The predominant attribute of the right-wing movement is self-victimizing petulance over the unfair treatment to which they are endlessly and mercilessly subjected. Last week, C-SPAN broadcast a Commentary Magazine event that almost certainly set a record for most tough-guy/warrior nepotism ever stuffed onto a single panel, as it featured William Kristol (son of Irv and Gertrude), John Podhoretz (son of Norm and Midge), and Jonah Goldberg (son of Lucianne). Jihadis around the world are undoubtedly still trembling at the sight of this brigade of Churchillian toughness.

Exemplifying the deeply self-pitying theme of the entire discussion, Jonah continuously insisted that conservative magazines are so very, very important to the political landscape—indispensably so—because conservative voices are frozen out of mainstream media venues by The Liberal Media, so that poor, lonely, stigmatized conservatives can only get right-wing opinion in places like Weekly Standard and National Review. In between Jonah’s petulant laments about how conservative opinion cannot be heard in The Mainstream Media, Bill Kristol talked about his New York Times column and his Washington Post column, John Podhoretz told stories about his tenure editing The New York Post Editorial Page and Charles Krauthammer’s years of writing a column for Time and The New Republic, and Jonah referenced his Los Angeles Times column. None of them ever recognized the gaping disparity between those facts and their woe-is-us whining about conservative voices like theirs being shut out of The Liberal Media. So important in conservative mythology is self-victimization that they maintain it even as they themselves unwittingly provide the facts which disprove it.
On a related note, it is so nice to visit Balloon Juice and no longer see Pajamas Media ads.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-01-2009 at 09:25 PM..
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  #249  
Old 04-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I challenge you to name the liberal equivalent of Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Karl Rove, Sarah Palin, or Michele Bachmann. And before you reach for examples of things said about George W. Bush, let me say that those things were fundamentally true, if at times exaggerated. There is no comparison to the fantasies and hate speech coming from the likes of the people I just named, either in what they say about Obama or liberals in general.
Cynthia McKinney=Michele Bachman.
Rick Santorum I like, though admittedly I don't know much about him.
Karl Rove=James Carville
Sarah Palin=... this is kinda tough, but maybe Howard Dean. Or Dennis Kucinich. (Two very different people, I know, but Howard Dean had the profile, and Dennis Kucinich some of the nuttiness. Maybe Al Sharpton.)
Newt Gingrich=Jerry Brown?
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  #250  
Old 04-02-2009, 12:01 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Bh.tv isn't only a place for progressives. Contrarians like AA are more than welcome to diavlog here. Clearly Bob Wright and Mickey Kaus find her interesting, especially since she is one of the more well known American bloggers.

Certainly a vote of the handful of people who post here shouldn't be determinative of who comes on and who doesn't.
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  #251  
Old 04-02-2009, 12:17 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Certainly a vote of the handful of people who post here shouldn't be determinative of who comes on and who doesn't.
You do know that the opinions of a few people—or even a lot of people—here in the forum will never be determinative of who appears on BHTV, don't you?
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  #252  
Old 04-02-2009, 12:24 AM
Lyle
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Praise Jesus.
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  #253  
Old 04-02-2009, 05:53 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
Cynthia McKinney=Michele Bachman.
Rick Santorum I like, though admittedly I don't know much about him.
Karl Rove=James Carville
Sarah Palin=... this is kinda tough, but maybe Howard Dean. Or Dennis Kucinich. (Two very different people, I know, but Howard Dean had the profile, and Dennis Kucinich some of the nuttiness. Maybe Al Sharpton.)
Newt Gingrich=Jerry Brown?
McKinney had one nutty idea that I ever heard about (which was in a lot of ways not that nutty at all -- as it turned out Bush did have some advance warning about 9/11), and said maybe one other nutty thing right after Katrina hit; Bachmann lets loose a new one every time she's near a microphone. McKinney has also done some admirable things, like championing human rights and humanitarian efforts both while in and out of office, standing up for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, and introducing legislation to release secret files on Martin Luther King.

Carville is nowhere near Rove in terms of documented amorality and willingness to use dirty tricks. Not even the same league; barely even the same sport.

Dean is about a thousand times smarter than Palin, not to mention considerably more enlightened. He is also not anywhere near as far to the left as Palin is to the right. Ditto Kucinich on the enlightenment front, and to the extent that his displacement from the center of the political spectrum approaches Palin's on the other side, it is a measure of the difference between Dems and Reps that he has no chance of being anything more than a member of the House. Try to imagine him being elected as a governor or picked as a running mate or named as a serious contender for president.

I'll give you Gingrich and Brown on the "look at me, I'm a man of ideas!" front, but again, compare the relative prominences within the respective parties, especially over the past couple of decades.
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  #254  
Old 04-02-2009, 06:04 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
McKinney had one nutty idea that I ever heard about (which was in a lot of ways not that nutty at all -- as it turned out Bush did have some advance warning about 9/11), and said maybe one other nutty thing right after Katrina hit; Bachmann lets loose a new one every time she's near a microphone. McKinney has also done some admirable things, like championing human rights and humanitarian efforts both while in and out of office, standing up for the victims of Hurricane Katrina, and introducing legislation to release secret files on Martin Luther King.
I bet McKinney's nuttiness equals Bachmann, but I'd have to look that up. As for the advance warning thing, I want to say "c'mon, Brendan!" Bush got advance warning in the sense that presidents always hear stuff about someone on the verge of attacking, without knowing where or how. That's a FAR cry from a conspiracy theory that Bush knew about it, where it was going to happen, when, how, etc.

It's possible that, for all I know, Bachmann has done some admirable things, at least from my point of view, though I don't really want to investigate.

Quote:
Carville is nowhere near Rove in terms of documented amorality and willingness to use dirty tricks. Not even the same league; barely even the same sport.
You're right. Maybe Mark Penn would have been a better comparison. Of course, unlike Penn, Rove was good at his job for a very long time.

Quote:
Dean is about a thousand times smarter than Palin, not to mention considerably more enlightened. He is also not anywhere near as far to the left as Palin is to the right. Ditto Kucinich on the enlightenment front, and to the extent that his displacement from the center of the political spectrum approaches Palin's on the other side, it is a measure of the difference between Dems and Reps that he has no chance of being anything more than a member of the House. Try to imagine him being elected as a governor or picked as a running mate or named as a serious contender for president.
I chose Dean because he had a similar "where the hell did he come from?" vibe about him, but you're right about his relative competence. The thing is, there's no comparison to Palin, though this might be because her selection in the first place was so much of a hailmary. Perhaps if a Dem candidate was in a similar situation to McCain, he/she would have made a similar choice.

But you're right. Fortunately for the Dems and the country there's not really any apt comparison to Palin.

Quote:
I'll give you Gingrich and Brown on the "look at me, I'm a man of ideas!" front, but again, compare the relative prominences within the respective parties, especially over the past couple of decades.
Well, Gingrich is certainly a prominent pundit, but I don't know that any elected official with any power takes him seriously.
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  #255  
Old 04-02-2009, 06:41 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

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Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
I bet McKinney's nuttiness equals Bachmann, but I'd have to look that up. As for the advance warning thing, I want to say "c'mon, Brendan!" Bush got advance warning in the sense that presidents always hear stuff about someone on the verge of attacking, without knowing where or how. That's a FAR cry from a conspiracy theory that Bush knew about it, where it was going to happen, when, how, etc.
Possibly. I don't know the details of what McKinney believed about Bush's foreknowledge, and I do think that having her as a gadfly on the 9/11 Commission was probably a net good.

Quote:
It's possible that, for all I know, Bachmann has done some admirable things, at least from my point of view, though I don't really want to investigate.
I'm not motivated to make her case for you, either ;^), but her Wikipedia page indicates that her efforts both before getting in the US Congress and since have been limited to pushing for creationism to be taught in schools, hating on teh gheys, and something about freedom of choice ... for light bulbs.

Quote:
You're right. Maybe Mark Penn would have been a better comparison. Of course, unlike Penn, Rove was good at his job for a very long time.
I don't know that Penn has a history of dirty tricks, but I certainly would not want to argue for his morality. And yeah, he's a bonehead. (So it's not that good a comparison, in that light: bumbling book-pimping blowhard vs. evil genius.)

Quote:
I chose Dean because he had a similar "where the hell did he come from?" vibe about him, but you're right about his relative competence. The thing is, there's no comparison to Palin, though this might be because her selection in the first place was so much of a hailmary. Perhaps if a Dem candidate was in a similar situation to McCain, he/she would have made a similar choice.

But you're right. Fortunately for the Dems and the country there's not really any apt comparison to Palin.
That someone running for president, who is over 70 years old, with a history of cancer, would think that it would be responsible to throw this sort of hail mary pass in the first place says something fairly significant about the differences between the attitudes of the two parties, I think, although I concede there is no shortage of Republicans and conservatives who are eager to say, "McCain is not one of us."

Glad to hear that you and I at least agree on Palin's competence, or lack thereof.

Quote:
Well, Gingrich is certainly a prominent pundit, but I don't know that any elected official with any power takes him seriously.
I dunno. You could be right. I was thinking more of the media attention he gets. It does seem to me that I've read of in-office Republicans mentioning him as a serious presidential candidate for 2012 (and similarly back in 2008, come to think of it), but I can't be sure. I'm not sure what getting invited to speak at CPAC measures about how elected officials view him, but certainly they close pay attention to CPAC.

To check on my vague sense that Newt is still listened to by the Republican leadership, I did a quick Google. Here, for example, is a post from Amanda Terkel, which makes the case that Newt still does have clout with the Congressional GOP, and a story from the AP, which indicates that, though he wasn't the first choice, he was the second, to speak at a major dinner for the GOP Congressional fundraising committees.

I suppose an alternate explanation for the latter would place Gingrich at the level of a safety school for someone applying to colleges; i.e., "We know we can always get Newt to say yes if we tell him there will be a live mike." And I suppose in general that the elected Republicans are happy to have him out front, dissing Obama in general and things like the stimulus bill and bailout of the financial services industry in particular, since it allows them to get their message out while not being caught on tape themselves. So, it could be that he's more being used than listened to.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-02-2009 at 07:00 AM.. Reason: typos
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  #256  
Old 04-05-2009, 10:54 AM
SkepticDoc SkepticDoc is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/fa...ouse.html?_r=2
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  #257  
Old 04-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Lyle
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Default GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

http://www.gaypatriot.net/2009/04/08...ment-syndrome/

I think it’s Althouse’s popularity among conservatives that really gets a lot of liberals. They can’t fathom how such supposedly narrow-minded right-wingers could appreciate the work of a blogress who doesn’t share our political sentiments and often criticizes our party’s candidates. Her popularity on the right shows that we welcome and appreciate those who don’t toe the conservative line, who hold different points of view than our own.

In short, her popularity upsets the left-wing narrative of an intolerant right. So she must be badmouthed to prevent right-of-center bloggers from being seen as respectful of those with whom we sometimes disagree.
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  #258  
Old 04-09-2009, 10:51 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

Wow. You found someone as clueless as you about why people can't stand Althouse. Congratulations.
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  #259  
Old 04-09-2009, 10:54 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2009/04/08...ment-syndrome/

I think it’s Althouse’s popularity among conservatives that really gets a lot of liberals. They can’t fathom how such supposedly narrow-minded right-wingers could appreciate the work of a blogress who doesn’t share our political sentiments and often criticizes our party’s candidates. Her popularity on the right shows that we welcome and appreciate those who don’t toe the conservative line, who hold different points of view than our own.

In short, her popularity upsets the left-wing narrative of an intolerant right. So she must be badmouthed to prevent right-of-center bloggers from being seen as respectful of those with whom we sometimes disagree.
Yeah, that's it. It has nothing to do the impression that she's a self-involved attention whore with a penchant for squishing metaphorical grapefruits in random faces on the theory that any controversy ultimately draws more eyeballs her way. Yup, Gay Patriot drives a nail into the coffin of yet another meme with his uncanny insight.
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  #260  
Old 04-09-2009, 11:03 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

Uh, I think most critics of Althouse from the left don't actually think she "doesn’t share [the right's] political sentiments" or that she "often criticizes [the Republican] party’s candidates"... that's kind of why they don't like her...
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  #261  
Old 04-09-2009, 11:56 PM
Lyle
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Default Re: GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

That's what makes her a liberal contrarian, and not a liberal apparatchik. Christopher Hitchens and Camille Paglia do the same thing.

Last edited by Lyle; 04-09-2009 at 11:59 PM..
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  #262  
Old 04-10-2009, 12:00 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: GayPatriot on Ann Althouse

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Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
That's what makes her a liberal contrarian, and not a liberal apparatchik. Christopher Hitchens and Camille Paglia do the same thing.
I don't think you quite got Pampl's point.
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  #263  
Old 04-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Kandigol Kandigol is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

I did not have time before to listen.

This is soo fascinating.

But everybody has gone off onto this political right wing GOP tangent. Guys, someone out of our ranks is marrying a blogger, a blogger is marrying a commenter!

Lets get back to the personal and private, and explore the emotional dynamic of being a commenter. Kind of begs the question whom I would like to marry from this blogging crowd.
I suppose (Glenn Loury is married already, and so is Bob, and Ezra Klein is young enough to be my son, and the other guys talk way too much politics) it would have to be Mickey. Providing Mickey does not mind crossing the Atlantic to go back to the Old Country.
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  #264  
Old 04-10-2009, 01:57 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Love in the Time of Commenters (Robert Wright & Ann Althouse)

Nah, you don't want Mickey. Unless you want to listen to endless rants on Immigration, Welfare and Unions.

I think most of the Bheads in your age bracket are married. George Johnson might be the only one I can think of who is single (as far as I know.)
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