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  #1  
Old 11-18-2008, 09:57 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Toward a Reality-Based GOP

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  #2  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:35 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

remove the people that don't make sense.
that means the social conservatives first.
hannity, o'reilly, limbaugh.

remake the social conservative ideal to be more inclusive.
remove the underlying racism.

redo free market capitalism so that policies allow markets to work,
with the objective to focus on the middle class.
otherwise, we'll get this bailout mania.

so yeah, let GM fail, except give auto workers a soft landing.
.........

it's so funny how the right are so clueless about netroots campaigning.
jay rosen made some good points about the dean campaign setting the stage.
however, i think the biggest element is that the republican party supporters tend to be older and uneducated about the internet just in general.

if you're stupid, you're a social conservative.
once you get a little education, you become a liberal.
once you get a little more education, you become a fiscal conservative.

Last edited by sugarkang; 11-18-2008 at 11:04 PM..
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:04 PM
industwetrust industwetrust is offline
 
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Default Palin v Douthat

If the right is smart they'll take my advice (not that they asked for it) and listen to Ross and Reihan.

It's clear that the McCain/Palin campaign shrank the base. Somebody like Jindal might be a good pick next cycle. His proposed medicare overhaul will be something to watch closely going forward.
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  #4  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:12 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

one medicare policy isn't going to change anything.
the republican party has a PR problem.
they have always been the "evil" party according to the left.
but now the perception is not only are they evil, but they're also stupid.
college support for democrats are 2 to 1. and that's the future of america.

the republican base is dying off. don't let that 52-46 number fool you.
palin 2012 will bring numbers like 60-36 for obama, as long as he doesn't screw things up.

either we have to re-educate people about why trade and free markets are good. AND/OR a new social conservatism that includes people of all races is introduced. self-reliance, responsibility, saving money. these core principles can be universal, and yet they've disappeared from the message.
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  #5  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:28 PM
industwetrust industwetrust is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
one medicare policy isn't going to change anything.
the republican party has a PR problem....
...either we have to re-educate people about why trade and free markets are good AND/OR a new social conservatism that includes people of all races is introduced. self-reliance, responsibility, saving money. these core principles can be universal, and yet they've disappeared from the message.
Those are fine ideas, and you're right, one medicare policy won't change anything. However it's a step in the right direction. The right will be left in the dust if they do nothing to reform healthcare and Obama gets his proposal through and working well. The truth is that while the core principles you talk about are worth keeping around, they aren't new ideas, and that's what the Republicans need the most right now.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:48 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by industwetrust View Post
The truth is that while the core principles you talk about are worth keeping around, they aren't new ideas, and that's what the Republicans need the most right now.
disagree. i said its a PR problem, not an idea problem.
when people think repubican, they think racist and ignorant.

republicans need to build an image of inclusiveness.
and the only way to do that is with a large smack of sincerity.
that means really engaging non-white americans and getting
over their xenophobia. in the end, social conservatives will
remain the way they are until they die. that's just the nature of conservatism.

fiscal conservatives however, will shift to the left... as brink lindsey has.
the most likely scenario will be that republicans will die a slow painful death.
and hopefully, fiscal cons like brink will be able to sway pelosi and reid not to be such fucking retards.
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2008, 03:22 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
republicans need to build an image of inclusiveness. and the only way to do that is with a large smack of sincerity. that means really engaging non-white americans and getting over their xenophobia.
I'm curious to know what you mean about "getting over their [Republicans'] xenophobia." Are you referring to the stance a lot of Republicans take against illegal immigration? If so, why should being against illegal immigration amount to xenophobia? I presume it's not xenophobic to think that there should be <i>some</i> regulation of who comes into America's borders. But if you grant this much (though I'm not sure you would), then when does it become xenophobic?

Quote:
in the end, social conservatives will remain the way they are until they die. that's just the nature of conservatism.
What do you mean, "that's just the nature of conservatism"? There are clearly some beliefs about which liberals will not compromise either. Gay marriage, abortion rights, euthanasia, welfare, universal healthcare, the list could go on.

Quote:
fiscal conservatives however, will shift to the left... as brink lindsey has. the most likely scenario will be that republicans will die a slow painful death. and hopefully, fiscal cons like brink will be able to sway pelosi and reid not to be such fucking retards.
I don't know why Brink, et al would be likely to be heard in the Democratic party. I mean, does any politician take fiscal conservatism seriously? Isn't it a clear election-loser?
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:25 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

re: xenophobia

i lean left, but i'm also aware of the importance of social conservatism. i'm just saying we need those values to transcend racial lines. you might find that i actually agree with you on a lot of things. i believe in a giant US/Mexico border and making immigration really difficult. that said, i would then grant all people in the US amnesty and start treating them all like americans. in many ways obama is that ideal, but he doesn't preach conservatism. he just lives it.

immigrants have this need to retain traditional culture that i think is just bullshit. there was a recent diavlog on this issue. lefties think that diversity is always a good thing, and i disagree. if we don't have a unified american culture, no one will ever agree on anything.

re: compromise

i look at the issues from a pragmatic lens. 1.2-1.4 million abortions happen each year. what would happen if all of these children are born into a social structure that cannot support it? single mothers = poverty = crime = prisons = higher taxes. the 1950s aren't coming back. lets get real about it.

terry schaivo was a waste of resources from a numbers perspective. i'd rather save ten than keep on vegetable alive. its irrational to think otherwise.

war on drugs propaganda that's so strong that now liberals buy into it. william f. buckley himself opposed this. legalizing drugs became the same as "soft on crime" which is just wrong. which party do you think would be more likely to end the war on drugs? obama talked about this two years ago, and has since changed his position because its politically untenable. thank richard nixon.

re: fiscal conservatism

clinton kept taxes high to pay off the debt. i'd say that's fiscal conservatism. fiscal conservatism isn't a winning political platform, but there are politicians that care about it. but the reality is that some social stuff needs to get done. brink lindsey hates to throw money at failure, but agrees in the need for infrastructure, civil liberties, reducing income inequality. because in the end, those things help with creating a unified american culture, a necessary condition for a new social conservatism imho.

so if fiscal cons agree with the left ideologically, then the hard part is over. then its just a question of logistics and maybe we can usher in an era of change that's smart and effective.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:47 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
i lean left, but i'm also aware of the importance of social conservatism. i'm just saying we need those values to transcend racial lines. you might find that i actually agree with you on a lot of things. i believe in a giant US/Mexico border and making immigration really difficult. that said, i would then grant all people in the US amnesty and start treating them all like americans. in many ways obama is that ideal, but he doesn't preach conservatism. he just lives it.
I agree with you on most of this. I'm leery of granting a blanket amnesty to all people in the country because (1) this sends a message that illegal immigration is permitted to continue, because in the future there will just have to be another amnesty (especially if all people in the US now become consolidated to the Dem voting block); (2) it seems a bit unfair to me to all the people who want to get into the USA but can't because they've been kept out by past USA immigration restrictions. For instance, some Filipinos have been waiting 18 years to get into the USA, whereas a lot of Mexicans, owing to their geographical proximity, can fairly easily get into the USA. So, a blanket amnesty would disproportionately benefit Mexicans.

Quote:
immigrants have this need to retain traditional culture that i think is just bullshit. there was a recent diavlog on this issue. lefties think that diversity is always a good thing, and i disagree. if we don't have a unified american culture, no one will ever agree on anything.
Most lefties do think this, to some degree, though I think you'll get argument from some on this board that you're oversimplifying here. Regardless, I think your general sentiment is right. Similarly, I find it completely understandable that people want to retain elements of their traditional culture--the culture you grow up in makes you who you are. That said, I think that forces in the USA that encourage immigrants to hold onto their traditional culture and bequeath it to their children, while again understandable, will overall lead to destablization.

Quote:
i look at the issues from a pragmatic lens. 1.2-1.4 million abortions happen each year. what would happen if all of these children are born into a social structure that cannot support it? single mothers = poverty = crime = prisons = higher taxes. the 1950s aren't coming back. lets get real about it.
I'm skeptical of what you're saying. First, we don't know how many of the abortions in a year are undertaken by the same person (probably not many, though). Second, if abortion were illegal, my guess is that there would be fewer abortions. Some people deny this, but from what I've seen, that's quite unlikely. Third, you don't need to criminalize abortion utterly--how about putting restrictions on it similar to those they have in European countries? From what I know, we have the most permissive abortion laws in the world, so I don't think it's crazy to tighten them at least a bit.

Quote:
terry schaivo was a waste of resources from a numbers perspective. i'd rather save ten than keep on vegetable alive. its irrational to think otherwise.
I agree with that, but I hardly think she's a typical case of euthanasia.

Quote:
war on drugs propaganda that's so strong that now liberals buy into it. william f. buckley himself opposed this. legalizing drugs became the same as "soft on crime" which is just wrong. which party do you think would be more likely to end the war on drugs? obama talked about this two years ago, and has since changed his position because its politically untenable. thank richard nixon.
I think that marijuana should be legalized; the rest, I'm not so sure. But marijuana legalization would be a good first step to seeing what happens with the rest of the drugs.

As for which party would be the first to legalize it, I'm not sure; there are a lot of influential libertarians at the policy level in the Republican party, and the Dems worry about looking soft on crime, so I think it's something of a toss-up.

Quote:
clinton kept taxes high to pay off the debt. i'd say that's fiscal conservatism. fiscal conservatism isn't a winning political platform, but there are politicians that care about it. but the reality is that some social stuff needs to get done. brink lindsey hates to throw money at failure, but agrees in the need for infrastructure, civil liberties, reducing income inequality. because in the end, those things help with creating a unified american culture, a necessary condition for a new social conservatism imho.
Ah. I don't think raising taxes or cutting spending is particularly popular, though probably raising taxes is easier to push through than cutting spending.
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:14 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

re: blanket amnesty.

agreed it would unfairly benefit mexicans. but once you have the big ass wall, people wouldn't be able to get in. then you can usher in other people who want to immigrate legally. i agree a fairer approach is better. but this is politics where 1/3 of americans believe obama is a muslim. building a wall and granting amnesty is the only feasible way to send the message "hey, we want you to be americans, but illegal immigration has to stop."

re: traditional culture

agreed. i just didn't want to get into the intricacies on a msg board. i'm pretty sure we're on the same page.

re: abortion

yeah i don't like abortions either. but the religious right doesn't allow for contraception and sex education. if we can reduce abortion numbers by 95%, i would have no problem with tougher laws. the end goal is to not need the laws at all.

re: war on drugs

come on. do you think sarah palin will ever say "lets rethink the war on drugs?" yes, the libertarians are quite a different animal than the republican base. smoking is down to just 20% of americans. the best way to control drugs is to make it boring and stupid. control it through social mechanisms rather than legal ones.

re: cutting taxes, cutting spending

agreed. its just hard to say kill the dept of education because it just sounds like you hate education.
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  #11  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:21 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

I have to learn to write like you. Pithy but understandable.

I refuse to give up my capitalization, however.
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2008, 02:43 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Hey guys, good discussion. I agree with most of your points. Regarding culture i would only say that embracing multiple cultural influences doesn't have to necesarrily diminish the presence of others. My Italian family retains plenty. My Jewish friends families do the same, etc. If something is worthwile we hold onto it. But I think that viewing culture as a zero-sum competition isn't the most accurate portrait of how these things work in reality.

Re Drugs: "make them boring and stupid" is a brilliant approach. Unfortunately the first part might be tough

PS I would agree with SK on ending the war on drugs, if only because the base of the GOP would be much slower to come around to that point of view. Libertarians are on board, but they are not the ones that the GOP generally caters to (see Palin.)

Anyways, great thread!
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2008, 05:00 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
For instance, some Filipinos have been waiting 18 years to get into the USA, whereas a lot of Mexicans, owing to their geographical proximity, can fairly easily get into the USA. So, a blanket amnesty would disproportionately benefit Mexicans.
This is debatable. Mexicans would benefit disproportionately by decriminalization of their status, but that's ok, considering they never did anything wrong in the first place. They just answered a help wanted offer. The proximity gave them an edge, but a) that's a fact of geography and b) it's a fact of the historical relationship between the two countries (including the US taking the entire Southwest from Mexico, in what today we would call occupation and war crimes).


Quote:
That said, I think that forces in the USA that encourage immigrants to hold onto their traditional culture and bequeath it to their children, while again understandable, will overall lead to destablization.
What forces are those? And why would they destabilize? Do you think Jews who send their kids to Hebrew school or French people who send theirs to summer camp in Paris to learn French and Parisian cuisine are "destabilizing"?


Quote:
Third, you don't need to criminalize abortion utterly--how about putting restrictions on it similar to those they have in European countries? From what I know, we have the most permissive abortion laws in the world, so I don't think it's crazy to tighten them at least a bit.
The reason progressives won't budge an inch on abortion is that they know what the extremist right-wing agenda is -- criminalizing all abortion. Some other countries may be more flexible because they don't have a mass movement of religious fanatics for whom abortion is "murder."

Quote:
I think that marijuana should be legalized; the rest, I'm not so sure. But marijuana legalization would be a good first step to seeing what happens with the rest of the drugs.
Marijuana is now quasi-legal here in California; i.e., anyone can get a prescription and buy it in the local dispensary or grow it at home. The system works pretty well and could be a good model nationally.

I would go much further in decriminalizing all drug use, but marijuana is, as you say, a good place to start.

I lived in Spain for a year where possession of all drugs, including cocaine and heroin, is legal. That keeps users out of the criminal justice system and addicts in the healthcare system. The problem remains, however, that ruthless mafias control the drug trade. The real test of legalization would be to regulate and tax production and distribution, as we do with alcohol.
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:34 PM
JoeK
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
The proximity gave them an edge, but a) that's a fact of geography and b) it's a fact of the historical relationship between the two countries (including the US taking the entire Southwest from Mexico, in what today we would call occupation and war crimes).
This is argument against letting large number of Mexicans in the country. It has been repeated by Mickey ad nauseam, but you apparently still don't get it. How strong the argument is depends on the facts on the ground, i.e. are Mexicans assimilating or are they forming a separate nation within American borders. I am not familiar with what is actually going on with Mexican immigrants, so I can't say how serious this issue is. But if Mickey's fears are true, I see rivers foaming with much blood.
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  #15  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:41 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
I am not familiar with what is actually going on with Mexican immigrants, so I can't say how serious this issue is. But if Mickey's fears are true, I see rivers foaming with much blood.
Well, I am at least glad that you understand Mickey's message in its raw form without the hypocritical caveats he sometimes throws in to try to distance himself from the most grotesque forms of blatant racism.

But rest assured, there won't be any foaming rivers of blood. Mickey is full of shit, and his xenophobic fears and provocations are ludicrous.
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  #16  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:22 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
This is debatable. Mexicans would benefit disproportionately by decriminalization of their status, but that's ok, considering they never did anything wrong in the first place. They just answered a help wanted offer.
Well, there are certain regulations we expect people to follow when they enter this country. Declaring their residency, trying to become a citizen, paying taxes, etc. You might think it's silly to follow those regulations, but the fact is they're the law, and in most cases it's wrong to break the law.

Quote:
The proximity gave them an edge, but a) that's a fact of geography and b) it's a fact of the historical relationship between the two countries (including the US taking the entire Southwest from Mexico, in what today we would call occupation and war crimes).
Well, first, the Mexicans took the entire Southwest from the indiginous peoples who lived there before them, in what today we would call occupation and war crimes. Second, to say "it's a fact of geography" is a little pat, don't you think? I mean, there's a reason many people want to go to the USA--it allows them to improve their standard of living. But to the extent that immigration is justifiably regulated, why is it OK to let one group benefit disproportionately from the benefit of living in the USA? I'll grant that the historic relationship between the two countries is of some weight, and should perhaps allow for more Mexicans to immigrate to the USA than other groups.


Quote:
What forces are those? And why would they destabilize? Do you think Jews who send their kids to Hebrew school or French people who send theirs to summer camp in Paris to learn French and Parisian cuisine are "destabilizing"?
Look, there is no single culture in the USA. There is, perhaps, a dominant culture that changes gradually, and there are lots of subcultures that change gradually too. However, I think the people who live in this country should have some say (not a complete say, of course) about how their cultures and subcultures change. For instance, an extremely laissez-faire economic system might lead to severe cultural dislocations that people would be permitted to fight against. I don't see why massive immigration, and the associated cultural changes that brings with it, isn't something that can't also be fought against.

As for the forces that would destabilize, I'll give you an example of what I mean. Here at my university campus, there are Chicano studies majors who study Chicano culture. Just by anecdotal observation, a vast majority of the students who major in this seem to be Chicano themselves. I suspect they want to major in this (a) because it's easy for them to do well in these courses; and (b) because they feel a connection to their heritage and want to deepen that connection. However, these majors are also fairly open about trying to create activist students to fight on behalf of Chicano rights, to fight against perceived discrimination against Chicanos, etc. I would imagine that this would be destabilizing, perhaps to an unhealthy degree, if these studies alienated their students from the wider, dominant USA culture (which is a culture shaped largely, I suppose, by WASPs).

So there are two issues: (1) what values are imparted by the dominant culture? and (2) what happens when a lot of people become alienated from the values of that dominant culture, and are large enough to become a fairly substantial cultural chunk? Can't you imagine there would be strife?

Quote:
The reason progressives won't budge an inch on abortion is that they know what the extremist right-wing agenda is -- criminalizing all abortion. Some other countries may be more flexible because they don't have a mass movement of religious fanatics for whom abortion is "murder."
Didn't you say in an earlier discussion with me that you can understand why someone would think of abortion as severely immoral to the point where she would think that it should be criminalized? Or does that very view make one a fanatic automatically? And in any event, even if that's the only reason people are in favor of such permissive abortion laws--as if there are no pro-abortion-rights fanatics--it's still the case that having overly permissive abortion laws is a bad thing.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:20 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

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I'll grant that the historic relationship between the two countries is of some weight, and should perhaps allow for more Mexicans to immigrate to the USA than other groups.
That's all I'm saying.

Quote:
I don't see why massive immigration, and the associated cultural changes that brings with it, isn't something that can't also be fought against.
Maybe. But Mexican culture has always been a part of US culture in the Southwest. That's why we have cities named Santa Fe, San Antonio and Los Angeles. Plus, there already has been massive immigration from Mexico, and it hasn't changed the culture at all. Mexicans assimilate just like everyone else.

Your example of Chicano Studies departments is helpful in illustrating what your concern is, but these departments are hardly breeding grounds for revolutionaries. We've got Black Studies, Native American Studies, Jewish Studies and several others that kids major in. Most parents would rather have their children major in business, biology, chemistry, education, nursing or engineering, but all-in-all these depts. are at worst innocuous.

If Chicano kids return to their communities as activists, whereas Japanese Studies majors don't, it's because there are a lot more inequities and social issues in our barrios than in our suburbs where Japanese-Americans typically live. In other words, it's not that the curriculum is separatist; it's that the social conditions really need to be addressed.

Quote:
So there are two issues: (1) what values are imparted by the dominant culture? and (2) what happens when a lot of people become alienated from the values of that dominant culture, and are large enough to become a fairly substantial cultural chunk? Can't you imagine there would be strife?
I can imagine, but that doesn't make it so. The country has a pretty good record with assimilation. I see no evidence that the USA is failing to culturally absorb its immigrants.

Quote:
Didn't you say in an earlier discussion with me that you can understand why someone would think of abortion as severely immoral to the point where she would think that it should be criminalized? Or does that very view make one a fanatic automatically?
I will retract the word "fanatic." My point was that our country is much more polarized on abortion than many others.
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  #18  
Old 11-21-2008, 12:51 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

I think you and I are at a point of reasonable disagreement; I agree that the USA can assimilate a lot. I'm not sure that the USA culture hasn't changed a lot in the southwest--I've just started living here, but my wife's parents have lived in Phoenix almost all their lives and they think they see significant changes in the area; a lot more places than there used to be where you deal with a lot of people who can't speak English; and, it has to be said, they think they see a lot more crime. Perhaps it's just confirmation bias on their part--I'd trust statistics of a social scientist a lot more than I'd trust someone's impression, even if it's been built up over a lifetime. But I trust such statistics exist, and maybe I'll look some up (though they're probably heavily disputed).

One last thing: as a Catholic, there's a lot I like about Mexican culture. I like their emphasis on family, and I like their Catholicism (for instance). However, I think people like BJ--and not just BJ, but a lot of people in SoCal and Arizona and New Mexico--will worry about the more strongly pronounced social conservatism and patriarchal values prominent in Mexican communities.

But I suspect you know a significant bit more about this than I do, so I should probably do more research and live here longer.
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  #19  
Old 11-21-2008, 01:05 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Hey Bobby, what area of LA do you live in? Just curious. I'm right near LAX.
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  #20  
Old 11-21-2008, 03:20 AM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Northridge.

I've said too much!
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  #21  
Old 11-21-2008, 01:11 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Palin v Douthat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
If Chicano kids return to their communities as activists, whereas Japanese Studies majors don't, it's because there are a lot more inequities and social issues in our barrios than in our suburbs where Japanese-Americans typically live. In other words, it's not that the curriculum is separatist; it's that the social conditions really need to be addressed.
that's sort of the sensible liberal approach that i unfortunately must disagree with. those cultural studies classes are nothing more than grievance factories.

preservation of culture is no different than attempting to keep a religion orthodox. its a breeding ground for tension and this us vs. them mentality that i've come to loathe. it is in fact one of the obstacles in overcoming racism. an activist mindset produces a jesse jackson. then its no wonder why he wasn't as successful as MLK or obama.

barrios and inner cities need less activism, more planned parenting and a hunger for education. once people enter the professional class, they set the standard for responsibility and self-reliance in their progeny. activism mobilizes the minority culture, but breeds resentment in the dominant culture.

social conditions do need to be addressed. egalitarian societies are just happier in general and is a laudable goal in and of itself. but assuming equal and decent access to healthcare and above poverty line living conditions, certain ethnic groups are going to outperform others. then what? the resentment persists.

so yes, creating opportunities to set an even playing field for our meritocracy is important, but not the end game. cultural difference is the primary source of unequal performance. cultures that value education will outperform those that don't. i say we start treating everyone like god's children and let the chips fall where they may.

Last edited by sugarkang; 11-21-2008 at 01:27 AM..
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:42 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

"Will conservatives rally around Sarah Palin or Ross Douthat?"

Question that kinda answers itself...
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:44 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

I loved the discussion of reality-based conservatism. That's really the choice conservatives have to make right now.
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2008, 02:11 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Jay Rosen's Incredibly Dramatic Interpretation of the 2008 Election

[Added]- Looks like Claymisher just posted almost the exact same Dingalink. You have impeccable taste, Clay! Cheers-- UE

I felt like Jay should have been in a dark room with a flashlight under his chin, ghost-story style:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/159...9:23&out=24:27

I Really enjoyed this diavlog and both participants.

Last edited by uncle ebeneezer; 11-19-2008 at 02:13 AM..
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2008, 07:04 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

I agree with clay and uncle eb. Fascinating conversation.

It was great to have Jay Rosen on. Let's have him back soon. Maybe pair him with Eric Alterman on where the SCLM needs to go? At first thought, they'd seem to agree on "everything," but I bet it would make for an interesting hour.

I wish Conor and Culture11 luck. I'm trying to get into the habit of checking it regularly. Thanks for the reminder that James Poulos is part of the group. That gives me more incentive.

I had a bit of a problem when the conversation turned to the idea of getting more conservative reporters (as opposed to reporters who happen to be conservative). The example that Conor used, where a story on rent control doesn't include enough about "unintended consequences," seemed awfully weak. Right off the bat, you're already straying into analysis and even bordering on advocacy. Not that there's anything wrong with either, but this is not reporting the news.

I don't want to beat the example to death, but I did think it was telling that Conor couldn't come up with anything better when asked how the so-called liberal media problem should be addressed. As with Tucker Bounds flubbing when Campbell Brown asked him about Sarah Palin's foreign policy experience, I'd think that Conor would be better prepared for this easily anticipated question. So far as I could tell from his answer, he seemed to believe that the solution for bias in news coverage (a condition that I do not think exists as a global problem) was more bias.

Ultimately, I don't really buy the idea that reporters' ideological leanings is the problem in the media. In this regard, I think the problem is more that people who wear conservatism on their sleeves tend not to be much interested in being reporters. There seems to be an endless number of wingnut welfare-supported paths for career advancement for those interested in writing about politics, society, and culture, where conservatives come out of college or J-school and jump right into opining and pontificating. Again, not that there's anything wrong going that route, but it's not doing anything except grooming more preachers for the converted. I am inclined to think, moreover, that those who do spend some years reporting gain a broader perspective, and end up not being conservatives, at least by the measure of the purity police. Either that, or they become professionals, more interested in reporting the story right than in reporting it Right.

P.S. Shoutout to Conor for his attitude towards Erick Erickson, as expressed both in the diavlog and on The Confabulum.

P.P.S. For the record, I am generally persuaded by the larger arguments against rent-control, if anyone cares. More to the point, I came to this position, in part, by ... yes ... reading about these viewpoints in the MSM. So, Conor, I think you need a better example.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 11-19-2008 at 07:54 AM.. Reason: add closing sentence and PS and PPS
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  #26  
Old 11-19-2008, 02:20 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

Yeah, this was SUCH a great diavlog that I may just have to watch it again.

Thank you Conor, for being one of the first conservatives (that I am aware of) to call Bullshit on the gotcha journalism narrative. It really made me sad that so many, normally reasonable conservatives, held their tongues when that ridiculous excuse for Palin started coming out. It's like an angry parent blaming your child's teacher for asking when the Declaration of Independence was signed, on the quiz that their child failed.

I too thought Conor's rent-control example was a bit insufficient (I mean if that's everything that's wrong with liberal media then it's not a very significant problem) and Jay's distinction between "news" and "truth" seemed pretty on-the-mark. Anyways, the discussion of why there aren't more conservative reporters, is an interesting mystery. I would guess that there are many cultural reasons: if you are raised hearing about how evil and liberal reporters are, and how economic incentives are the main driving human motivation, journalism probably won't be too attractive as potential career.

I also enjoyed the discussion of McCain's mistake in demonizing the media.

I also really enjoyed the discussion of creating a web-based news organization that is user driven. Fascinating stuff.
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2008, 09:27 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

In support of Conor's views, this catch by Sully is pretty funny. And telling.
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  #28  
Old 11-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Larry Bird Larry Bird is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

The first 15 minutes of this are a waste. Believe it or not I'm not that interested in why you founded your website and what it stands for. I come here for political discussions. Everything else was enjoyable.
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2008, 06:18 PM
ed fielding ed fielding is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

A demilitarized zone: Long may it wave!
Agree with all the foregoing on the engaging nature of the pairing and the conversation, and the weakness of Conor’s assertion of media bias.
The American Scene already functions for me as such a place, where I with my quasi-socialist Canadian left sympathies can go to find intelligent observation and thought and only occasionally be bored and almost never appalled.
Almost like bloggingheads, eh?
Anyway, the more, the better, unconditionally; and with them, improved chances for productive conversation between contending persuasions: That sounds like a better remedy for our ills, national and blogospheric, than what we were inured to, which was more and more manipulative malice.

Best blessings on culture 11. And thanks to Jay and Conor for their grace and honesty.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2008, 09:11 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

I don't think the Republicans are dead. Granted, they are not too lively but I see some movement on the Net. Some conservatived websites that aren't totally right wing wacko are pajamasmedia (Conor mentioned this one), townhall, newsmax, and to a degree realclearpolitics.

Sure, the Democrats are ruling the day but amongst them are the Bluedogs in the House, and a few Senators who don't line up with Ted Kennedy.

I may be wrong but I think party affilitation is on the downswing evidenced by the growing independent registration.

John
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  #31  
Old 11-20-2008, 01:06 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default On "conservative reporters"

George Zornick has a post worth reading. It's a reaction to Washington Post ombudsman Deborah Howell's recent griping about "liberal bias" at her own paper.
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  #32  
Old 11-21-2008, 01:54 AM
rustydude rustydude is offline
 
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Default Re: Citizen journalist website OffTheBus

This idea is definitely intriguing. One journalism analogy to this is marathon journalist Don Kardong's "Thirty Phone Booths to Boston" from 30 some years ago.

He was trying to figure out a new way to cover the 26 mile Boston Marathon that went beyond watching it on tv or watching it from one point on the route. Late at night in a tavern before the race he came up with the idea of covering the race from his hotel room by calling 30 different phone booths along the 26 mile route. At 2:00 a.m. he drove the route and wrote down the phone #'s of 30 phone booths. Then on race day he sat in his hotel room with a couple of phones and started calling the 30 phones.

Inevitably, some viewer of the race along the route would answer the phone and Don would ask the person how various racers looked and how they viewed the race. He would jump forward or back along the route to get different reports.

In the end, he got some key analysis on the race that the tv guys never got. And everyone who answered the phones really enjoyed being part of the investigative process.
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  #33  
Old 11-21-2008, 07:12 PM
nyc123 nyc123 is offline
 
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Default Re: Toward a Reality-Based GOP

note to GOP:

the "big-tent" party wins the elections.

There's been talk in some corners of the conservative blogosphere that McCain's mistake was not "hitting Obama on Wright" - These people are really deluding themselves if they think that running the "Goddamn America" clip a few more times would have swayed any voters in their favor.

Bring back pro-growth fiscal responsibility, make that the heart of the party's message, not the antics surrounding the Terry Schiavo affair.
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  #34  
Old 11-22-2008, 07:23 AM
Kandigol Kandigol is offline
 
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Default Journalism 2008

As a reporter, (in another country), I absolutely loved this Bloggingheads.
Wonderful conversation.
Can these guys come back SOON?

One comment however, and then I will shut up about it: how about sending the next generation of Heads a handsfree headset as a welcoming present? Or give them ten dollars to go and buy a set? So they don't have to engage in these phone gymnastics.
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  #35  
Old 11-22-2008, 02:06 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Journalism 2008

I know. When I first turned it on, something seemed strange. Then I realized this was the first time in ages that both participants were using old-fashioned, clunky hand-held phones. *One of them might have even been a rotary!!!
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