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  #1  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:38 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Age of Obama

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  #2  
Old 11-13-2008, 10:19 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

I am going to love revisiting this dialogue in 1, 5, 10 and 20 years to see how the Age of Obama played out in the light of these intuitions, insights, aspirations and reservations.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2008, 11:45 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

I think Glenn somewhat missed what John was talking about re: acting white. I think John's point was, that although there may be people in the private lives of Black America that place an emphasis on education, intellectual curiosity, playing by the rules etc. (parents, priests etc.) there haven't been too many in the public sphere. Rappers, and athletes are not quite the same role-model material as, President of the most powerful nation in the world. This is not to say that it is somehow Obama's job to reshape black culture, but his simply being out there as an example of what black (or any other color) children can aspire to, is undeniably a great thing.

Of course that didn't stop TNC from giving John a beatdown on this point:

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.c...lack_nerds.php
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2008, 11:52 PM
Dee Sharp Dee Sharp is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

I suspect John is right that peer pressure against academic achievement among middle and upper middle class blacks will be less effective now. Otherwise, I doubt that our next president's name or color will much matter. His political skills and policy preferences, as well as those of his allies and his opponents, along with the actions of others around the world and random natural events, will determine the ultimate outcome of his presidency.
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2008, 12:02 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

I agree with Glenn:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/158...4:00&out=15:24

That was one of the most uplifting moments of the speech.
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  #6  
Old 11-14-2008, 01:08 AM
Dr. Johnson Dr. Johnson is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Oh, for heaven's sake. Get a grip. Presidents routinely express solidarity with the suffering, oppressed people of the world. Even that avatar of evil, G. W. Bush, did so in his 2nd augural. An excerpt:

Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:

All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.

Democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know: America sees you for who you are: the future leaders of your free country.

The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."


There's lots more in the same speech, and I'd bet, in most important speeches by most presidents.
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2008, 03:49 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Dr. J, i think there are a couple reasons why this sentiment is being so remarked upon in this instance, even though you are correct that other leaders have made similiar statements in the past. Here's just a couple possibilities that come to mind:

1.) Meaning- if you look at the statement that George H Bush made, it is very different in it's implied message than what Obama said. Specifically if you put it into the context of the Bush/Reagan years and the notable tendency that the US government had in slipping their hands into civil disputes in Central America etc. Bush's statement sounds more like it was aimed at repressed peoples in those areas and as a signal that he intends to continue the kindof covert operations and support that Reagan established as an extension of the Cold War mindset.

2.) Sincerity- though many politicians may make grand statements aimed at global audiences, one of the reasons why Obama's statement is so well received is because it sounds like he means it. Not just because he is a good speaker and it was an eloquent line. But because it is entirely consistent with the world-view that he has espoused from the beginning of his campaign. Unlike the current administration that has always projected an outlook blindered by America's best interests, and that has often acted in ways that illustrated just such a view, Obama has made it clear that he believes that the right way forward is to view the world as group of many inter-related nations with seperate and often conflicting interests, but that they are all tied together in a complex web and that the only way to make serious global changes (or even foreign policy changes that help US interests) is to view the bigger picture and act accordingly. It is a very Bob Wright-ish outlook. For this reason, Obama's statement rings much truer than it would if the same statement was maid by W.

3.) Timing- the context of the past 8 years and the way that the US has been percieved by foreigners, is also a crucial element of why Obama's statement is notable. Like it or not, our actions in recent years have resulted in a world-wide view that we are simply the latest Hegemon who acts only when our own interests are at stake. Our open hostility to the UN and Nato, our disinterest in World Courts and our neglect on Kyoto and other global treaties have turned much of the world against us who used to be on our side. Obama has said that opening up dialog with the rest of the world is crucial if the US is going to be the global leader that it must be on many of the biggest issues. So it was good to hear him back it up by taking a similiar tack in what is (for now) the biggest speech of his life. To use an analogy, whether you agree with it or not, the world has been desperately waiting for a change in attitude from the American Presidency. Obama's statement was important mainly because it is what the world needs to hear.

These are the reasons (or some combination thereof) why Obama's shout out to the rest of the world was much bigger today than when George H Bush or Lincoln made a similiar statement. (I would also argue that Lincoln's line struck me much more as a reference to slavery, and that in his time America's global influence wasn't quite so large as it is today where we are clearly the big dog, and we are in a world with far more intimate ties between nations due to travel, viruses, missles, global warming, terrorism etc.)
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2008, 01:39 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
I agree with Glenn:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/158...4:00&out=15:24

That was one of the most uplifting moments of the speech.
I couldn't agree more.
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2008, 12:30 AM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Glen's old pose - Easter Island style, sideways/from below the chin - was better.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:09 AM
Kandigol Kandigol is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
Glen's old pose - Easter Island style, sideways/from below the chin - was better.
Really? Hmm, he looked good that way, but I like to watch Glenn in any pose he would wish to strike in front of the camera. (Yes, alright, I like John too, don't get peeved. But Glenn is such an attractive man... oh dear. I actually live six time zones in the future, so not to worry, this is strictly a virtual infatuation.)

This was not the cathartic dialogue I had been anticipating. It had a certain resignation to it, as if both John and Glenn had already said and wrote everything there was to say about the Obama win in the days previous to taping.
They were opined-out, if you allow me this ugly neologism.

Maybe because the next two months of transition are going to be so sloppy and slow, they should get out and about for a bit and meet up again after January 20, 2009 to talk with renewed gusto about Obama and his administration. Me, as an onlooker, should take some of this same medicine, probably. And some of my esteemed co-commenters.
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  #11  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:26 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kandigol View Post
This was not the cathartic dialogue I had been anticipating. It had a certain resignation to it, as if both John and Glenn had already said and wrote everything there was to say about the Obama win in the days previous to taping.
They were opined-out, if you allow me this ugly neologism.
Perhaps Eric Alterman's view will serve as an antidote.
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  #12  
Old 11-14-2008, 03:44 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Kandigol,

Hello! I like these 2 diavloggers but haven't listened to it yet. Also, I have read books by both of them which I haven't done with too many others that appear here. I am wondering what more they have to offer on this topic since they have done so many already. Perhaps, it's time to acknowledge the campaign is over and for me to stop analyzing it.

What I am focusing now will be Obamas cabinet as he assembles it. So far not a lot has happening but the pace will quicken as time goes on. Not giving a lot of details in the campaign and doing the obligatory flip-flopping my focus will be on the "change" that he emphazied or promised to bring to Washington. Granted, it's a nebulous word but I am interested on how he moves to implement it.

John
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2008, 03:46 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
Glen's old pose - Easter Island style, sideways/from below the chin - was better.
totally agree.

anyway, a solid diavlog - as always - from these two. and i agree with the esteemed professor Loury that if obama sticks with the small-bore, his presidency will be a profound disappointment.

also, i'm not sure if it's my own residual intolerance, but something grates when Glenn exclaims "Barack Hussein Obama!" can't really put my finger on why, but something about that particular phrasing bothers me . . .

Last edited by nikkibong; 11-14-2008 at 03:50 PM..
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  #14  
Old 11-14-2008, 05:28 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Yeah. As much as I agree with the logic behind it, Glenn's in-your-face-ness is somewhat offputting. It reminds me of basketball court smack-talk (something that has always annoyed me.)
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2008, 12:18 PM
JIM3CH JIM3CH is offline
 
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Default Re: Glen's Pose on BH.tv

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkibong View Post
also, i'm not sure if it's my own residual intolerance, but something grates when Glenn exclaims "Barack Hussein Obama!" can't really put my finger on why, but something about that particular phrasing bothers me . . .
I also felt it. I think it was Glenn’s "in your face" way of delivery.

Never-the-less, I am surprised by how many presidential middle names I can remember just by using my "mental Google". They become household. In just a few months we will all hear our next President start his term in office with the words: I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear…,

Frankly, I can hardly wait to hear them.
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2008, 12:59 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Both John and Glenn seem quite confused to me. Glenn started out questioning whether concentrated power into a unique institutional figure was realistically the way to get change. He wondered out-loud if real change doesn't actually come from civil society instead. Then, a few minutes later, he's wishing for pseudo-revolutionary cataclysmic scenarios where reality is radically transformed via sweeping "wars on poverty" etc...and if Obama doesn't accomplish this, then he'll be let down.

John on the other hand started out arguing that the president's persona and skin-color (the symbolism) matter with regard to our culture. I can agree with that. But then he lets his euphoria extend this claim from culture to the actual institutional role of the president, which leads him to speculate that even terrorists might come to like Obama because of his skin-color and his middle-name. But wait a minute, aren't the rulers of middle-eastern countries some of the most hated by the terrorists? What can skin-color and middle-names have to do with that?

I, for one, do not think that a president's persona can have any influence whatsoever on its institutional role. The challenge is gargantuan: one small person's character and personality, against the terrible reality that so much concentrated power in such small hands can only lead to disaster. With that in mind, all the cheer-leading in the world is not going to help. Actually, if presidential hubris is what we must worry about then maybe it is the opposite of what we should be doing right now. Giving a person super-powers and then cheering him on only works in comic strips. The last time we did that was after 9-11 when for a period Bush was immune from criticism......I rest my case.
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2008, 01:29 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
I, for one, do not think that a president's persona can have any influence whatsoever on its institutional role.
Disagree. Though it doesn't change the institutional role, the persona of the President (or any other grand figure in world goverment) directly effects the way people respond to him and thus his ability to get things done. While it doesn't necesarrily make or break him, his/her character (as it is perceived) is often the first consideration by whoever they deal with. Ahmedinajad is a case in point. His policies are not that much crazier than the typical Iranian ruler, but his offensive antics and attitude have made him into even more of a boogeyman than he would be otherwise. President Clinton's persona helped him in good ways (seen relatively favorably by the world) and bad ways (persecution by the GOP.) George W Bush has been perceived by many to be arrogant and to not even consider the positions of all the other countries on earth, or the established systems of law. This is why so many around the world are thrilled at the prospect of Obama as President. Reagan would be another prime example of persona playing a tremendous role in his ability to govern. So much so that when we discuss Reagan, we rarely get beyond his persona and focus on the real results of his policies.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Disagree. Though it doesn't change the institutional role, the persona of the President (or any other grand figure in world goverment) directly effects the way people respond to him and thus his ability to get things done. While it doesn't necesarrily make or break him, his/her character (as it is perceived) is often the first consideration by whoever they deal with. Ahmedinajad is a case in point. His policies are not that much crazier than the typical Iranian ruler, but his offensive antics and attitude have made him into even more of a boogeyman than he would be otherwise. President Clinton's persona helped him in good ways (seen relatively favorably by the world) and bad ways (persecution by the GOP.) George W Bush has been perceived by many to be arrogant and to not even consider the positions of all the other countries on earth, or the established systems of law. This is why so many around the world are thrilled at the prospect of Obama as President. Reagan would be another prime example of persona playing a tremendous role in his ability to govern. So much so that when we discuss Reagan, we rarely get beyond his persona and focus on the real results of his policies.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Reagan is a good example. Despite all his rhetoric about small government his administration spent by leaps and bounds. The left was very good in the last 8 years at not taking what GW said at face value: freedom, democracy, etc...instead focusing on his deeds. I think it's really important to separate what a president says and how he says it (the persona), from what he does, and even more importantly, from the real consequences of his actions, especially the ones that were not intended and overtly publicized. With that in mind, I worry when people respond positively to a president (as you say), because it fogs our collective analysis of what will actually happen. I also worry when "presidents get things done", that per se is nothing to cheer about. Hasn't GW toppled a couple of regimes and dictators? People were saying he was getting things done and in fact he was able to do so because after 9-11 his approval was pretty good. People responded to him and he got things done.

Take for instance the Nordic countries or, say, Canada and Australia, do they need to have charismatic leaders that give the impression they are getting things done?
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:19 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

The profundity of Barack Obama.

Obama's acknowledgement of the rest of the world -- his embrace of humanity beyond our shores -- is a far more effective anti-terrorism weapon than the sneering contempt of the neocons and, particularly, Bush/Cheney. Sure, there will always be ultra-right wing religious fanatics. But our chances of discovering and intercepting plots to harm America (and Israel are far better when the people of the world identify more with us than they do with Islamic extremists. Where Bush, Cheney, and the hate mongering right have pushed the world away from America, Obama will draw them in.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:35 AM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
The profundity of Barack Obama.

Obama's acknowledgement of the rest of the world -- his embrace of humanity beyond our shores -- is a far more effective anti-terrorism weapon than the sneering contempt of the neocons and, particularly, Bush/Cheney. Sure, there will always be ultra-right wing religious fanatics. But our chances of discovering and intercepting plots to harm America (and Israel are far better when the people of the world identify more with us than they do with Islamic extremists. Where Bush, Cheney, and the hate mongering right have pushed the world away from America, Obama will draw them in.
Except that the neocons where posing as the last ray of hope for people huddled in prisons under ruthless dictators etc, etc...and with those noble goals did what they did. So Obama speaks to other huddled folks around the world. What's he going to do for them? What can he do for them? What other consequences will his actions have if he tries to do something, etc...imagery is fine and swell, but I don't think we can escape some harsh realities here.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:24 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Shorter Unit: Because I can bring up George W. Bush as an example of something being horribly botched no matter what the issue, I believe I have proved that Obama has no hope of accomplishing anything. Tremble before my sophomoric cynicism!
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Shorter Unit: Because I can bring up George W. Bush as an example of something being horribly botched no matter what the issue, I believe I have proved that Obama has no hope of accomplishing anything. Tremble before my sophomoric cynicism!
Brendan,

I'm sorry if I don't share TwinSwords (and your?) simple view of the world: when the bad party of hate is in power everything is bad, when the good party of love is in power, everything will be good. You're right I probably already mention this: the left was very good at demystifying the presidency, at warning us about presidential power and abuse etc....Now all of a sudden we are supposed to believe that the president can do no wrong? Maybe you can explain to me why the incentives driving the president have changed so drastically. Does Obama want to have less power than Bush? Have you heard him say he wants to end the war on drugs and the war on terrorism? Nope, sounds like he wants to start a new one on poverty instead. Look they themselves are acknowledging by their choice of words that the only thing they know how to do is war. After all these are the weapons in their toolboxes: coercion, bans, expropriations, bombings, threats, favors. What else? What is this supposedly magic touch that the president has made of?
And by the way, I'm no cynic. I have immense respect and awe for civil society, for cooperation among people, peaces, etc...I don't believe in superheroes.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit View Post
What is this supposedly magic touch that the president has made of?
And by the way, I'm no cynic. I have immense respect and awe for civil society, for cooperation among people, peaces, etc...I don't believe in superheroes.
Thoughtfulness, introspection, self examination, insight, intelligence, common sense, communication skills, openness to different points of view and the willingness to weigh them in his decision making, and the ability to articulate his intent to others.
I happen to be the cynics cynic, and who amongst us especially here, believe in superheros? But I value these characteristics above all others in a leader. He may fall on his face, it may turn out that he possesses only some, or none of these, but I am encouraged by what I've seen so far.

I now yield the floor to the brave conservocons who echo the corporate propaganda arm of the media out of child-like fear of the "unknown" or, as I see it, the ignored. I know your fingers are quaking on your keyboards. The daily show has a quick, condensed fox news talking point montage if you need something to fire you up... click on "Baracknophobia - Post-Election Edition"
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:43 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Thoughtfulness, introspection, self examination, insight, intelligence, common sense, communication skills, openness to different points of view and the willingness to weigh them in his decision making, and the ability to articulate his intent to others.
I happen to be the cynics cynic, and who amongst us especially here, believe in superheros? But I value these characteristics above all others in a leader. He may fall on his face, it may turn out that he possesses only some, or none of these, but I am encouraged by what I've seen so far.

I now yield the floor to the brave conservocons who echo the corporate propaganda arm of the media out of child-like fear of the "unknown" or, as I see it, the ignored. I know your fingers are quaking on your keyboards. The daily show has a quick, condensed fox news talking point montage if you need something to fire you up... click on "Baracknophobia - Post-Election Edition"
I'm sorry, I thought I had been clear that I was separating the individual qualities of a president from the institutional role.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:27 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unit View Post
I'm sorry, I thought I had been clear that I was separating the individual qualities of a president from the institutional role.
I would have to argue that the Bush / Cheney reign is a glaring example of just how much the individual qualities not only set the tone of the institutional role, but play a role in every decision, and how those decisions are sold to the people here, and around the world. Hence my emphasis on the attributes of communication, and diplomatic skills.

But some of the partisan posters here will argue that many events of the last eight years were either for the greater good, or were not consequential of decisions made by Bush / Cheney, and were motivated not by personality, but by pure moral righteousness. I have a feeling they will not take the same defensive stance for the new administration.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2008, 02:23 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

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Originally Posted by Unit View Post
Brendan,

I'm sorry if I don't share TwinSwords (and your?) simple view of the world: when the bad party of hate is in power everything is bad, when the good party of love is in power, everything will be good.
What you should be apologizing for is failing to understand that neither Twin nor I have anywhere near as simplistic a view of the world as the caricature you suggest.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

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What you should be apologizing for is failing to understand that neither Twin nor I have anywhere near as simplistic a view of the world as the caricature you suggest.
Ok, sorry for that.
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  #28  
Old 11-15-2008, 12:57 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Unit View Post
Ok, sorry for that.
Thanks.

And please understand when I do a "shorter" that I'm almost always partly goofing around -- it's partly serious criticism/disagreement, but I'm also going for the laugh (or at least, amusing myself), so there necessarily will be some oversimplification involved.
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Old 11-15-2008, 01:55 PM
Unit Unit is offline
 
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Default Re: The Age of Obama

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Thanks.

And please understand when I do a "shorter" that I'm almost always partly goofing around -- it's partly serious criticism/disagreement, but I'm also going for the laugh (or at least, amusing myself), so there necessarily will be some oversimplification involved.
That's fine. Besides, "sophomoric" is half wise (sophos) and half moronic...So I'll take the half wise :-).
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:56 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Please Make It Stop!

Can we please wait for President-Elect Barack H. Obama to be (officially elected in December) actually inaugurated before discussing his performance? The rhetoric is expressionistic. At least talk about Rahm Emanuel, or the gossip about cabinet picks.

I need a Cato Institute fellow for measure.
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  #31  
Old 11-14-2008, 01:37 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

I agree. I especially love the Reps who are already screaming and hollering about how awful Obama is gonna be...60+ days before he even takes the oath.

I wish the rumors of Hillary as Sec of State, had been out when they did this 'vlog. I would have liked to see Glenn's reaction to the idea of Obama tapping his girl Hillary for such an eminent position.
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  #32  
Old 11-14-2008, 04:11 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
I wish the rumors of Hillary as Sec of State, had been out when they did this 'vlog. I would have liked to see Glenn's reaction to the idea of Obama tapping his girl Hillary for such an eminent position.
Interesting thoughts from Al Giordano on the Clinton chatter.
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  #33  
Old 11-14-2008, 05:25 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Good points. Considering how well the Obama team has been about leaks, it would be odd fore such a HUGE one to be the first. Especially since picking HRC would go against many of the better interests of Obama. Consider me in the Hillary's-people-floated-this camp.
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  #34  
Old 11-14-2008, 09:14 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

And, too, whatever happened to Richard Holbrooke for State? I actually voted for Obama based, among other things, because Holbrooke was on board.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Hey, guy, you're doing legwork above your level! Don't give the big 'heads any help! If this were a paysite, I'd send my credit card payment to you!

Susstantively, what does the appointment process have to look like in the "Age of Obama" to be reformed?
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  #36  
Old 11-14-2008, 08:41 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

I'm with John about the elation going on in the black community and elsewhere. Driving up Crenshaw Blvd. around 57th St. and beyond in Los Angeles and seeing all these sidewalk concessions with Obama t-shirts and other paraphenalia it is truly amazing. At least for the short term people deserve to bask in the glow of the recent election.

John
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:06 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Granted I was raised in a household where one half of the clan assumed Washington was a disease sent by God for human sin. I rejected the belief behind that skepticism. But, I embraced the skepticism. It's a necessary evil, but one people still have to tackle in the best way. Let's not get wrapt up in this human vanity too tightly.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:24 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Quote:
Driving up Crenshaw Blvd. around 57th St. and beyond in Los Angeles and seeing all these sidewalk concessions with Obama t-shirts and other paraphenalia it is truly amazing. At least for the short term people deserve to bask in the glow of the recent election.
Beautiful!
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  #39  
Old 11-14-2008, 09:30 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

Another possibility is that the Hillary deal for SecState was in since the Biden pick.
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2008, 09:37 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Please Make It Stop!

I guess all that spin about HRC becoming the new Ted Kennedy was just that.

Damn Bill Clinton for starting rule by trial balloon! Something tells me it's too early to count coup.
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