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  #1  
Old 10-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Santa Ana Winds Edition

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  #2  
Old 10-16-2008, 10:56 AM
T.Moran T.Moran is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Mickey Kaus is an idiot and his view points are so juvenile.
Bill Ayers is a non-issue. He is not a terrorist. Mickey should get a life.
Robert Wright is waisting his time with this fool.
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2008, 06:47 PM
tarajane tarajane is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

I think Wright is the one who sounds juvenile in this session -- especially the comment regarding who looks the part of the president and who would you rather look at. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are drawn to Obama for just these kinds of superficial reasons. They like him for the "part."
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  #4  
Old 10-17-2008, 05:34 AM
sharkdog sharkdog is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Ok your right. Ayers is not a terrorist. He is an unrepentant ex terrorist. I would never under any circumstances even think of voting for someone who would associate with such shit.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:09 AM
BeachFrontView BeachFrontView is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

http://i38.tinypic.com/25fsfuo.jpg
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  #6  
Old 10-23-2008, 05:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachFrontView View Post
LOL! Thanks for that, BFV,
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:26 AM
BeachFrontView BeachFrontView is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

I'm tryin to agree with Mickey about the terrorist comments but I just cannot bring myself to agree with him. I agree calling the President to be a Terrorist during the " War on Terror " is the most dispicable thing I have heard. This is one of those times I just cannot see the other side's point of view as legitimate. Republicans are intentionally fanning the flames. It does smell of desperation.
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:55 AM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachFrontView View Post
I'm tryin to agree with Mickey about the terrorist comments but I just cannot bring myself to agree with him. I agree calling the President to be a Terrorist during the " War on Terror " is the most dispicable thing I have heard. This is one of those times I just cannot see the other side's point of view as legitimate. Republicans are intentionally fanning the flames. It does smell of desperation.
Ya, I have a hard time understanding what about Obama's Ayers association would actually 'bother' Mickey, as he says. Their grouping isn't particularly tight, there really aren't any quotes from Obama floating around praising BA's record, and as Obama has quickly ascended to political star status he hasn't shown any desire to bring wacky lefties along with him.

Beyond that, it seems pretty clear that they never 'picked' each other as allies in particular. If the board they served on together was, itself, a nasty piece of left-wing cocooning, I could see this argument making traction. But the choice is to join the organization or not -- and Obama didn't select Ayers to do anything.
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  #9  
Old 10-16-2008, 12:06 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMoney View Post
... If the board they served on together was, itself, a nasty piece of left-wing cocooning, I could see this argument making traction. But the choice is to join the organization or not -- and Obama didn't select Ayers to do anything.
Yeah, that darn Walter Annenberg and all those left-wing cocoons he created!

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  #10  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:37 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMoney
and Obama didn't select Ayers to do anything.
Except host an important early fundraiser for Obama's state Senatorial campaign. Obviously one can make too much of Sen. Obama's association with Ayers, but that's not best rebutted by intentionally making too little of it.
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  #11  
Old 10-16-2008, 03:49 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
Except host an important early fundraiser for Obama's state Senatorial campaign. Obviously one can make too much of Sen. Obama's association with Ayers, but that's not best rebutted by intentionally making too little of it.
Right, but people who host fundraisers are a whole tier below 'people you've worked with'. Can you imagine what could be tossed at McCain if every person who has hosted/planned a fundraiser for him were being touted as a professional associate?

It's only making too little of it if McCain is being held to the same standard. Which he very obviously isn't.
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:27 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMoney
Right, but people who host fundraisers are a whole tier below 'people you've worked with'
Right, but, in his case Ayers is both, right?
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:37 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
Right, but, in his case Ayers is both, right?
You hang onto that thread tenaciously, but I don't think you're doing much justice to your side of the argument. A board such as the one Obama and Ayers served on meets how often? Was it organized (by the Annenbergs!) ideologically, such that membership might imply something about a someone's ideology? It's a thin thread, and parsing every counter-argument to emphasize the lack of no-relationship-at-all isn't illuminating. The fact that this argument has so little traction, except with the those who already seem to be convinced that Obama is a Quisling, ought to seem like evidence that it's not as strong an argument as those making it think it is.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 10-16-2008 at 06:36 PM.. Reason: too <> infinitive
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  #14  
Old 10-23-2008, 05:20 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exeus99 View Post
Except host an important early fundraiser for Obama's state Senatorial campaign. Obviously one can make too much of Sen. Obama's association with Ayers, but that's not best rebutted by intentionally making too little of it.
I'll add to what AemJeff said on this.

What you (along with everyone else who makes these dark mutterings about Ayers) seem to be implying is that Ayers holds the same views that he held forty years ago, and the only reason he would hold a fundraiser for Obama is to support someone who agrees with those old views. That is, you're trying to create the impression that there's this ongoing stealth mission to place Weather Underground operatives into high office.

This is patently ridiculous. Ayers is as much a part of The Establishment now as anyone is. As far as I can tell, the worst thing he's done since Obama got into politics is shoot his mouth off a couple of times.
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  #15  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:00 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Imagine someone was a racist in the 60s. Imagine further he was a member of a racist organization members of which killed a few African-Americans. Imagine that he personally set off a few bombs that that didn't kill anyone, but damaged property of anti-segregation government officials. Now, finally, imagine this fellow became a distinguished professor of English at the University of Arizona, and refused to disown his past actions, but was proud of them. If he had "palled around" with John McCain four years ago, would you find that relevant to assessing John McCain?

Personally, I'm not sure I would, but I think one should at least go through the thought-experiment before blithely dismissing the Ayers stuff.

Also, a point of clarification: do we know the extent to which Obama "palled around" with Ayers? He'd met the guy, that much I know. And he served on a board with him. But I don't know the extent of their associations beyond that (for example, did Obama launch some campaign in Bill Ayers's living room?).
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  #16  
Old 10-16-2008, 03:51 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
Imagine someone was a racist in the 60s. Imagine further he was a member of a racist organization members of which killed a few African-Americans. Imagine that he personally set off a few bombs that that didn't kill anyone, but damaged property of anti-segregation government officials. Now, finally, imagine this fellow became a distinguished professor of English at the University of Arizona, and refused to disown his past actions, but was proud of them. If he had "palled around" with John McCain four years ago, would you find that relevant to assessing John McCain?
There are a zillion reasons why this analogy doesn't work, most of them having to do with the fact that racism, both radical and otherwise, has been repudiated more than leftism, radical or otherwise.

Your analogy puts an equal sign between them.

Last edited by DoctorMoney; 10-16-2008 at 04:03 PM.. Reason: My spelling, she is bad
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  #17  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:13 PM
Bobby G Bobby G is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

It's interesting that your problem with my analogy is not that one is less bad than the other, but rather that one has been repudiated more than the other. Personally, I think violently motivated racism is very bad, and I also think that violently motivated extreme leftism that, if effected, would result in a much, much worse society for everyone, is also very bad. I also think the collapse of extreme left-wing regimes all over the world, combined with the suffering they've caused, combined with the fact that most everyone knows this, makes extreme, violent leftism of the sort that Ayers endorsed, as repudiated as vicious racism.

That said, OK, imagine, then, that McCain was not palling around with vicious racists. Imagine instead that he was palling around with John Birchers, or people who opposed the civil rights rights acts of 1964 and 1965, and that furthermore, that these people used violence to do so. Is the analogy any more apt?

And by the way, you've provided only one reason (which I don't think is good) for why the analogy is not apt. You still owe me 1 zillion - 1 reasons.
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  #18  
Old 10-16-2008, 08:34 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
And by the way, you've provided only one reason (which I don't think is good) for why the analogy is not apt. You still owe me 1 zillion - 1 reasons.
The other 9,999 kabillion have to do with whether the public effectively *wanted* to bring the militant left of the 60s back into the fold. Compare and contrast that with militant racists. Society made a markedly different judgment of the two sets of radicals.

I'm younger than Obama, so this is all ancient history to me. But my sense of it is that the violent left was viewed as a product of an extremely turbulent time -- force met force (campus shootings, protests met by riot police) and political movements turned nasty. No such allowances have been or will ever be given to the militant segregationists. They're history's bogey men.

Of course, this explains why the Ayers attack fails so completely to persuade anyone who isn't already angry about lefty 60s radicalism. It smacks of reopening wounds that we have gone to some lengths to close up. And most of us Xers and younger have a real allergy to even seeing the subject come up again. It's petty an distracting.
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  #19  
Old 10-16-2008, 09:04 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Talk about associations Dick Morris is trying to make hay out of the Acorn bru-ha-ha. Of course, he is known to be way off on his predictions like the book and articles he wrote saying Hillary would be the next prez. He does include the caveat that it's no big deal so far since people are shaking in their boots over the stock market downward tilt instead of paying attention to the upcoming election. Even if the economy was even Steven I doubt that Acorn would make a difference.

One thing about the debate last night that was puzzling was hardly any mention about the whys and wherefores of the recent financial debacle and the candidates respective cures or solutions. On top of that they proceeded to talk about all the spending they would do. The second debate they laid out a laundry list of different military conflicts confronting America: "the stans," Russia, Darfur, Iran, North Korea - it was hard to keep up with it. Now, is all the money for social, military, and financial institutions going to come from raising the taxes on people making over $250,000? Burt Bachrach had a tune sung by Dionne Warwick that gives a clue: "Promises, Promises."

John
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  #20  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:15 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Up until running in this election Obama has felt comfortable with the extreme left. It's apparent from the news reports that Ayres wasn't just a neighbor who taught English at a university. Also, the church he had to quit was one I would never have gone to and if I did would have left in 5 minutes. Also, I did find it odd that running for president made him turn his back on the place where he found God. Well, he threw his grandmother under the bus so I guess Reverend Wright was not immune to that treatment. That said he claims to be a man of new associations like Warren Buffet, Paul Volcker, Senator Richard Lugar and General Jim Jones and these are a much higher caliber than the prior ones. So, let bygones be bygones and a new Barack Obama will be ascending to the presidency in short order.

John
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  #21  
Old 10-17-2008, 01:49 AM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
Imagine someone was a racist in the 60s. Imagine further he was a member of a racist organization members of which killed a few African-Americans. Imagine that he personally set off a few bombs that that didn't kill anyone, but damaged property of anti-segregation government officials. Now, finally, imagine this fellow became a distinguished professor of English at the University of Arizona, and refused to disown his past actions, but was proud of them. If he had "palled around" with John McCain four years ago, would you find that relevant to assessing John McCain?
Here's an easier one. Suppose he had a history of bombing abortion clinics. Anyone ready to claim that wouldn't be page 1 material every day of the campaign?
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  #22  
Old 10-17-2008, 06:12 PM
Usernumberone Usernumberone is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

But what about the fundraiser? That's a little bit more than serving on a board together.
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  #23  
Old 10-23-2008, 05:23 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usernumberone View Post
But what about the fundraiser? That's a little bit more than serving on a board together.
Same answer.
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2008, 05:56 PM
Usernumberone Usernumberone is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

It's not despicable if it's true. William Ayers is a terrorist and until he started running for president Obama was 'friendly' with him. I just don't understand what Bob finds so bad about it. His attempts to parse 'pals' and 'palled' reminded me of Clinton.

I can see how it happens. Nobody else was shunning Ayers so Obama goes with the flow. I guess a lot of other people would too. But I'd like to think a president would be exceptional and say "hey, wait a minute this is f'd up. You don't deserve any role in public life after you committed violent acts subverting our democracy."

I'm voting for Obama anyway, but I'd be much happier if he'd shown either more judgement or strength of character re Ayers.
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2008, 06:00 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usernumberone View Post
It's not despicable if it's true. William Ayers is a terrorist and until he started running for president Obama was 'friendly' with him. I just don't understand what Bob finds so bad about it. His attempts to parse 'pals' and 'palled' reminded me of Clinton.

I can see how it happens. Nobody else was shunning Ayers so Obama goes with the flow. I guess a lot of other people would too. But I'd like to think a president would be exceptional and say "hey, wait a minute this is f'd up. You don't deserve any role in public life after you committed violent acts subverting our democracy."

I'm voting for Obama anyway, but I'd be much happier if he'd shown either more judgement or strength of character re Ayers.
This is a strange meme. The meaning of "pal" is irrelevant. Any attempt to interpret a sentence in the English language containing the word "pal" that happens to be inconsistent with the usage of one of the most grammatically challenged public figures in recent memory is to overparse that sentence with politcal intent.

Sheesh.
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:44 AM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Raymond Chandler for the win.
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  #27  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:44 AM
andythornton andythornton is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

I don't think Mickey is an idiot, but I completely agree that the Ayers thing should be a non-issue. As a young (ish) Brit I have to say that I do not know much about the Weather Underground, but it seems from the little I know that there is a massive material difference between Bill Ayers and Osama Bin Laden.

Firstly, Bill Ayers may have used some questionable techniques in his 20s (although, you could argue that we lived in different times back then), but the guy is now the distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois. Would it be so bad if Obama was genuinely friends with such a person? He is 65 years old professor! Come on ...

Secondly, Palin is clearly doing a sleight of hand. She is putting terrorist and Obama in the same sentence to help reinforce this perceptional about Obama being an Arab / Muslin / Terrorist (which have been conflated in American society since 911 ... at least among certain people). I would have rather Bob and Mickey spent 10 minutes reflecting on that. She is deliberately playing to the deepest fears of still frightened (Middle) America. I suspect she knows better.

Good job though guys ... glad to see you back. Aside from McWhorter/Lowry your diavlogs are a notch above.
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  #28  
Old 10-16-2008, 12:10 PM
jack d jack d is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

I agree. Mickey is pretty dim. He tries to make up for that by choosing the most contrarian, obnoxious point of view so that he can get attention. I don't even bother to read his stupid comments in Slate. Unfortunately, often to listen to Bob you have to listen to Mickey on this site.
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  #29  
Old 10-16-2008, 12:19 PM
Undertoad Undertoad is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

More despicable campaigns - via here

1876: Rutherford Hayes vs. Samuel Tilden -- This is the granddaddy of them all: a truly stolen election in which Republicans turned defeat into victory for Rutherford Hayes by counting Democratic votes as their own in three Southern states. Both parties used violence to intimidate former black slaves for their votes. And not to mention that Republicans extorted 2% of the salaries of Federal employees to aid in their campaign efforts, or that Democrats accused Hayes of shooting his mother and robbing the dead, or that Republicans claimed that Samuel Tilden suffered from venereal disease.

1964: Lyndon Johnson vs. Barry Goldwater -- Not as well know as Nixon's 1972 dirty tricks election, Johnson's 1964 win over Goldwater featured the cynical manufacturing of anti-Goldwater stories planted with gullible reporters; children's coloring books portraying Goldwater as a Klansman; CIA invasion of Goldwater's campaign; and FBI bugging of Goldwater's campaign plane.

1800: Thomas Jefferson vs. John Adams -- Way back in only the third election ever held in this country, Thomas Jefferson of the Republicans and John Adams of the Federalists went at it tooth and nail, with Republicans hiring hack writers to attack the incumbent Adams as a "hideous hermaphroditical character." whatever that means, and Federalsts claiming that Jefferson slept with slaves. Thomas Jefferson claimed incumbent John Adams wanted to marry off his son to the daughter of King George III, creating an American dynasty under British rule. Jefferson haters called the challenger a fraud, a coward, a thief, and "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." The close election was thrown into the House of Representatives, where Jefferson almost certainly made a secret deal to win it all.
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  #30  
Old 10-17-2008, 03:32 AM
Tara Davis Tara Davis is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Well done. All three of those despicable campaigns are far worse than using an unflattering expression ("pals around with terrorists") to express what is, frankly, a true statement. Ayers is most certainly a domestic terrorist, and Omama is much closer to him than he's willing to acknowledge.

Yes, Palin is clearly hoping that some inattentive voters respond to the word "terrorist" with thoughts of crazed foreign threats, but for Obama's defenders to say "that's misleading because Obama's terrorist friend is actually a white US citizen" does not ring to me as a particularly persuasive argument.

To this list, I would add the shenanigans of Nixon's re-election campaign, and the October Surprise of 1988. Both far worse than Palin's comment.

Come to think of it, the way both sides played the race card in 1992 with television ads (Willie Horton vs. lynching stories) was also at least as bad.
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  #31  
Old 10-17-2008, 02:32 PM
thprop thprop is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Undertoad gets a link from Mickey in Kausfiles!!!!!

Check the 11:52pm entry - Slate has a weird way of formatting its blogs.
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  #32  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:02 PM
skonny skonny is offline
 
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Default Obama's Ayers Answer "Weak"?

Mickey is putting a lot of weight on the word 'associate', and it just won't bear it. Obama's answer would've been weak if he just said "I was 8, forget about it." But contra Mickey, that didn't happen.

He also stressed that what Mickey calls his "association" with Ayers was mostly just serving on the Annenberg Challenge board over a decade ago. As Obama successfully put across, this also contained prominent and respectable men from both parties, including a university president and the president(?) of a conservative newspaper.

How do I know it was successful? Polling seems to indicate it, but I've also got a strong anecdote. My two-time Bush-voting mother, who until tonight had reservations about Obama's extremist associates, called me after the debate to say those had been put to rest, and she has decided to vote for Obama. As goes my Mom, so goes the nation.
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  #33  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:08 PM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Hullo, Stranger

Good to see Kaus back on the farm.
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  #34  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:34 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Mickey, I still luv ya

Bob has a point, although Mickey is correct to point out that there is a legitimate component to the Ayers based attacks on Obama. Bob's point would be stronger if he argued that the way Palin goes about talking about Ayers is incendiary, not the necessarily the information in the message itself.

Had the McCain campaign brought up the Ayers issue in a respectful, we don't think Obama is a terrorist kind of way--it would have been more effective. McCain could have prefaced the Ayers concerns with statements about understanding Obama served on a board of people advancing charitable purposes and that Ayers was 40 years removed from his awful activities -- but Obama, as President, should understand associations have symbolic meanings -- and Obama's not ready to be President b/c of his failure to understand that his relationships matter.

Instead McCain chose to use the darker message -- instill fear about who Obama really is-- this is why he lost independents. You have to blame Steve Schmidt-- he's a Rove operative schooled in us vs. them politics. Mark McKenna would never have let McCain do what he has done over Ayers because ultimately McKenna is a more moral man who understands the effectiveness of subtlety.
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  #35  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:00 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Clinton accused of murder, rape, drug running, etc.
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  #36  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:04 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

We're just around the corner from the great liberal triumph. We've got Obama, a guy who's not at all attached to the unsuccessful policies from the 1970s, leading the way. We're going to get real action on health care, energy, Iraq, and the economy.

And here Kaus is, still in the old defensive crouch. What a punk. What a colossal weenie. I don't understand what he does at all. He's like a used-up pencil: he's got no point. It's like he's still mad at Bella Abzug or something.

OK, now I should actually listen to this week's episode.
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  #37  
Old 10-16-2008, 07:08 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
It's like he's still mad at Bella Abzug or something.
Yes, because she was obviously hiding something under those hats.

Those Santa Ana winds are truly inspiring Mickey to Nixonian levels of lip sweat, along with exacerbated contrarian shtick. How does the Mickey define palling around? Maybe he could tear himself away from accosting random women on the Venice beach boardwalk and investigate the extent and duration of the Ayers/Obama link?
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  #38  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:17 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Bob really nails the McCain/Palin strategy right here:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/151...7:12&out=17:19

Tragic, but true.
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  #39  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:43 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Great diavlog. Bob & Mickey's analysis is SO much more interesting than anything on TV.

I thought the best part of Obama's Ayers response was towards the end when he said something to the effect of "I think the focus on this says more about you (McCain) than it does about me." The Ayers/Acorn stuff is only important to the more fringe elements that are already in the McCain camp anyways. These are the same people that shout out the despicable stuff at McCain rallies.

I can testify to the nature of the Santa Ana winds. They've got me pretty amped up...or then again, maybe it's the election.
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  #40  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:57 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Santa Ana Winds Edition

Isn't "terrorists" plural? Who are the others that Obama pals around with? Anyone who has done anything dangerous recently? I'm not all that surprised that Mickey obsesses on an irelevant issue (that's sortof his MO), especially since he's a Republican.
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