Showtime at the Apollo (nikkibong & PreppyMcPrepperson)

[Bloggingheads]

The "View Diavlog" link doesn't work yet in the Apollo forum. Here's the correct link.

[graz]

Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?

[nikkibong]

Originally Posted by graz

Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?

graz, did you watch the diavlog? For the first 15 minutes we talked about the media biz at large. Then, we switched to a brief, and yes, McArdle-esque description of our own attempts at entering the 'biz.'

We didn't feel compelled to disagree about anything; it was more of the expository style.

Of course, you and I could continue this discussion via diavlog...

Thanks for watching.

[graz]

I love you anyhow. And I'm glad you satisfied your desire for face time.
I'll continue to read all your writing - comments or published works.
But Apollo auditions and self-promotions... not so much.

Which is less a reflection on you and more a criticism of bhtv. Hey wait, you're right, the first fifteen minutes are no different than many of the dv's on the main page. And they didn't even have to pay you. You go!

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by graz

Are these two on a date,

Perhaps.

and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Wishful thinking.

Was I also having a flashback

Most likely.

or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

It's your imagination.

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts?

You can think of it that way.

McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

I agree.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing?

Are you against peaceful harmony?

No offense, but who cares?

I do. Aren't you proud of our friends?

OK. Don't answer that last question...

[graz]

Thanks for your support Doc (offical bhtv Apollo project defender).
Although it seems less than professional for you to suggest that my man nikki not listen.

[PreppyMcPrepperson]

Originally Posted by graz

Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Well, I never got my free dinner...so I'm not sure it counts

To the point about our agreeing too much, I promise to bring Althouse levels of contrarianism-for-its-own-sake next time.

Thanks for the heads-up about the blog link TwinSwords--I've asked the authorities to fix.

Also: One thought I had after we hung up was that we finished by saying how short the amateur time limit is, but actually when BHTV first got going, the Bob and Mickey 'vlogs were just as short.

[graz]

Great job by the way. Jeff just made the point that your chat was worthy of the front page... without the distracting imagery.

My disappointment is that the original point of the dueling commenters (Apollo) on video was going to be a new and different feature. You and Ethan offered a seamless presentation that deserves promotion to the big leagues. But it was not unlike the format of "regular" dv's.

http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=2825

04-01-2009, 11:15 AM
nikkibong

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Shanghai & Portland, OR
Posts: 746
Re: Apollo Project
Quote:

[nikkibong]

Thanks, graz.

Oh: and you are truly the master archival researcher. Where were you when I was working on my thesis??

[Wonderment]

Nikki,

Where/how did you learn Chinese? I had no idea.

[nikkibong]

Originally Posted by Wonderment

Nikki,

Where/how did you learn Chinese? I had no idea.

For four years in school, and during multiple visits to China....

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson

Also: One thought I had after we hung up was that we finished by saying how short the amateur time limit is, but actually when BHTV first got going, the Bob and Mickey 'vlogs were just as short.

True. Good point. I've always been a fan of the longer diavlogs; if a diavlog is worth listening to it the first place, it doesn't bother me if it goes for 60-80 minutes. It almost felt to me like you and Nikki were just getting rolling when the time ran out. I hope that eventually Bob n' Company extend the time limit to the standard 45-60 minutes.

As for another point: I've never been particularly interested in cable news/Crossfire-style fireworks-for-fireworks sake. some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided - but then again, my opinion is informed by nothing but my own preference. It's probably true that conflict generates more hits and sustains more interest across a larger audience.

[graz]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

.

As for another point: I've never been particularly interested in cable news/Crossfire-style fireworks-for-fireworks sake. some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided - but then again, my opinion is informed by nothing but my own preference. It's probably true that conflict generates more hits and sustains more interest across a larger audience.

Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson

To the point about our agreeing too much, I promise to bring Althouse levels of contrarianism-for-its-own-sake next time.

Disagreeing just to satisfy a programmer or commenter's request is silly.
Again, my expectations for a challenge between disagreeing commenters as promised by Bob was dashed. I'll get over it. It could get accustomed to a bong/preppy pairing... but why not post them on the Diavlog comments section.
Or maybe I'll just let go of the desire for some fightin' commenters. I had some dream match-ups in mind... oh well.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by graz

...
Or maybe I'll just let go of the desire for some fightin' commenters. I had some dream match-ups in mind... oh well.

I bet there's an inverse relationship between the odds of a match-up occurring and its rank on your list!

[graz]

Indeed!

[Simon Willard]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

.... some of the best diavlogs have been friendly conversations between people who largely agree on everything. I think the BhTV imperative to achieve conflict is misguided

I have a slightly different view. Agreement diavlogs are boring. I like people who have differing perspectives - who throw light on a subject from different directions. This doesn't have to mean conflict! The best diavloggers actually listen to their partner, they probe and challenge in a friendly way, but they don't try to win debating points.

[JonIrenicus]

Originally Posted by graz

Are these two on a date, and through the power of new technology we're eavesdropping?

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Are these the bhtv junior league tryouts? McArdle does no better in transmitting her personal anecdotes.

Where is the conflict? On what subject are they disagreeing? No offense, but who cares?

This reminded me of this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBS7dVrE1U

[PreppyMcPrepperson]

Winning link Joe. Love that movie.

[graz]

I love that song... But later in the story all is forgiven when his heart expands and order is restored.
An enlarged heart seems like a medical problem to me.

Bah Humbug!

[Namazu]

Originally Posted by graz

Was I also having a flashback or was the psychedelic effect (voice as well as vision) purposeful?

Perhaps the reference to Warhol in the color scheme is only obvious to those above a certain age. Limiting the diavlogs to 15 minutes sharp ought to let more people in on the 'joke.'

[bjkeefe]

Originally Posted by Namazu

Perhaps the reference to Warhol in the color scheme is only obvious to those above a certain age. Limiting the diavlogs to 15 minutes sharp ought to let more people in on the 'joke.'

While I don't vote for the time limit, that was pretty good.

Congratulations to bong and preppy!

Ethan seems much sharper and more focused on camera than he does in his comments. Preppy also impressed.

As an Apollo skeptic, I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks to both and to bhtv for the innovative addition to the viewing menu.

[Ocean]

OMG!!!! Nikki!!!! Is this true???

Now, seriously, this was great!

Don't listen to graz. He's just envious because of the great job the two of you did.

Congrats!

[TwinSwords]

Hey, this is great!

Nikki & Preppy,
Congratulations to you both for your fine performances and for being the first diavloggers to launch this new feature. I look forward to seeing you both back in the future.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Hey, this is great!

Nikki & Preppy,
Congratulations to you both for your fine performances and for being the first diavloggers to launch this new feature. I look forward to seeing you both back in the future.

I agree with Twin. Well done. And I don't see anything wrong with a little self-promotion, as long as it's done with a bit of grace.

Okay. Now to the topic. Preppy likely made the right choice to go to J-school. There are a lot of good programs and they do teach people how to write.

Ethan and Preppy both moan from the same song-book; so there's something to the complaint about a lack of conflict. James O' Keefe and Hannah Giles demonstrate precisely how to break a story. Their efforts point the way forward.

Crap commentary on the events of the day can be found at bhtv and just about every other for free outlet on the internet. Really moving stories about real people; stories that move us to either outrage or sympathy make careers.

Every accomplished artist or writer I know (and I know lots) works their media. The choice is simple: work as an independent and starve; or work for a commercial outfit providing content or services and eat better. Either route, hard work and imagination are required to deliver the goods. My guess is James and Hannah trudged into a lot of offices before they got the footage they wanted.

Lace up them boots and go find your stories.

Best of luck!

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by kidneystones

Crap commentary on the events of the day can be found at bhtv

Well, no one can say you lack for self-awareness!

[Anyuser]

Originally Posted by kidneystones

Preppy likely made the right choice to go to J-school. There are a lot of good programs and they do teach people how to write.

I'm surprised anybody goes to j-school, I'm surprised j-schools still exist, after Michael Lewis's article for TNR back in '93. See here.

[PreppyMcPrepperson]

Originally Posted by Anyuser

I'm surprised anybody goes to j-school, I'm surprised j-schools still exist, after Michael Lewis's article for TNR back in '93. See here.

I won't dispute that J schools are home to a lot of meaningless navel-gazing. But it might be changing A few years ago, and long after Lewis visited, Columbia got a new dean (Nick Lemann of the New Yorker). They still have a core program where you emerge with an M.S. in Journalism and spend a lot of time working on process-- there's the myth Lewis cites that journalism is a science. You couldn't have paid me to apply to that program.

But Lemann also launched a second experimental program, where you emerge with an M.A. in a specific subject area--writing about business, or politics, or science, say. It's a smaller program and each student studies both with ex-journalist profs at the J-school, doing skills stuff, and with professors at the relevant graduate school for their field. For example, if you wanna cover business, you go take finance and strategy classes at the B-school and in corp law at the law school, and in international economic policy at the public policy school. In other words, the idea behind this program seems to be that journalists are supposed to be experts who know enough about their beats to call 'bull shit' on their sources, as well as having basic media skills (how to produce video, for example).

Columbia's not unique in this--NYU has a similar program and I'd predict we see something equivalent out of Medill (Northwestern) and Berkeley soon enough. This kind of journalism education has more value than the kind Lewis rightly derides, especially since breaking news is increasingly a commodity anyone can provide. Expertise, analysis is what professionals bring to the table.

That said, the bigger problem with J-school is that even if every school offered a subject-area program like I've described above, journalism as a field doesn't, and probably shouldn't, pay the kind of salaries that let you rationalize the cost of the degree. Other fields that require graduate education usually offer the chance of making back the investment. I was lucky enough to get a grant; I don't know if I'd have paid for this program out of pocket.

[Anyuser]

Very informative. Thanks for this reply, and thanks for appearing on BHTV. I enjoyed your talk.

[osmium]

Wow, fantastic. Big ups, nikkibong and preppymc.

[look]

Congrats on your on-camera aplomb.

Wapo details the methodical work of James and Hannah. Maybe bong and preppy can collaborate on a follow-up piece.

What's the bet there are Acorn employess willing to blame the entire nightmare on Fox news and Glenn Beck?

Go git'em.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by kidneystones

Wapo details the methodical work of James and Hannah. Maybe bong and preppy can collaborate on a follow-up piece.

What's the bet there are Acorn employess willing to blame the entire nightmare on Fox news and Glenn Beck?

Go git'em.

What were the odds that kidney would find a non-sequitur tying together this diavlog and one or more of his obsessions?

[graz]

But Jeff, dontcha see that it's in service to the career building of the bong and preppy? He comments because he cares.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by graz

But Jeff, dontcha see that it's in service to the career building of the bong and preppy? He comments because he cares.

ROFL.

I suppose if Nikki and Preppy want to become activists in the cause of ultraconservative extremism, kidney might have a point. Hard work and determination are not what made O'Keefe and Giles the talk of the wingnutosphere. It was their service to the agenda of the far right that did that.

[PreppyMcPrepperson]

Ethan, if we collaborate on any stories, I insist on the byline PreppyBong.

graz writes...

I don't. Ethan had a paying gig in Shanghai where he could have done any number of other projects while getting paid to hone his craft. Instead, he couldn't manage his temper and quit.

Preppy invested in a j-school degree and can't get work. She's going to need to learn a lot more about political performance art; or get a job churning out crap like ninety-nine percent of paid writers.

Poor befuddled Jeff evidently can't discover any connection between a twenty-minute discussion on the state of journalism today and the O' Keefe/Giles story.

Sweet Jesus, James and Hannah are all-over the networks and the front-pages, right where nikki and preppy don't want to be.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by kidneystones

graz writes...

I don't. Ethan had a paying gig in Shanghai where he could have done any number of other projects while getting paid to hone his craft. Instead, he couldn't manage his temper and quit.

Preppy invested in a j-school degree and can't get work. She's going to need to learn a lot more about political performance art; or get a job churning out crap like ninety-nine percent of paid writers.

Poor befuddled Jeff evidently can't discover any connection between a twenty-minute discussion on the state of journalism today and the O' Keefe/Giles story.

Sweet Jesus, James and Hannah are all-over the networks and the front-pages, right where nikki and preppy don't want to be.

Duh, what?

I read Maha's piece in the Columbia journal. Maha, I like you're writing. Your blog could use some work. You'll doubtless be reviled by Acorn's tiny minions, here, for even reading this critique, but here's my two cents:

I love your blogname and your voice, both in print and on camera. You're writing is generally concise and clear. On camera you appear smart and pretty: two pluses, masking notwithstanding.

Blog revision. You're showing early Greenwald when you should be thinking current Sullivan and TPM. The font is way too small for that color scheme. Move to white for a text background and cut about eighty percent of the readable text. Talkleft buries every single post beneath a There's more barrier, forcing all readers to click, including repeat visitors. Sullivan and Marshall both employ the same strategy.

InstantCappucino needs a higher profile and an snappy logo of some sort. Wonkette worked early with a cartoon image. You can, too. Add images, either your own or from you-tube links. Compartmentalize your page to make it much more like a magazine than a blog. You've got a lot to say. Limit the available choices to: (eg) media, politics, the left. the right and focus our attention on these choices using images and teasers.

Invite collaborators and guest posters. Travel, if the opportunity presents itself. You'll see yourself and your world far more clearly, IMHO, through the prism of other cultures.

I've actually stumbled on your blog before, although I can't honestly recall when. The name stuck and that's great. Please take the critique in good faith. If you haven't read McCluhan, give him a try. Or a re-read. He's got useful things to say about 'hot' and 'cold' media.

Best of luck!