Go Back   Bloggingheads Community > Diavlog comments
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Diavlog comments Post comments about particular diavlogs here.
(Users cannot create new threads.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

I see no problem with labelling Rev. Wright, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, and others as buffoons, regardless of their ethnic background. It's sad that even in the most prosperous and advanced country the world has ever seen, the shaman still remains a figure who is taken seriously.

When a figure like Wright or Robertson points to some phrase in a 1600 year old book to prove that modern society is being punished by some ominpotent being, the proper reaction shouldn't be anger, it should be bemusement.

Last edited by Thus Spoke Elvis; 03-21-2008 at 02:30 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:13 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 765
Default Re: "The Conversation" or Can White Folks end racism.

The conversation as far as I can tell is about whether or not white people think there is societal racism and/or does something need to be done about it even if it exists.

I think John is asking can white folks become involved in a conversation that involves identifying with 2 difficult things:

1.) Being the Oppressor: Being the beneficiary of past racism.
2.) Being the Oppressed: Being at the wrong end of other race's power trip.

1 is tricky because even though almost all white people consider themselves not racist and a large subset of that group aren't, can they still see the harm of the past still echoing in the present and are they willing to do anything about it to forestall those echoes propagating into the future.

2 is tough because who wants to feel weak. John mentioned "victim culture" and that is a big problem for americans to accept. Sure there were problems in the past but suck it up and move on ( Obama spoke to the immigrant experience as opposed to the slave one ). Can a white person identify with a cathartic experience listening to the theatrics of a Rev. Wright. Can they see an angry black man and not turn that person into the "OTHER". Should the 8000 other parishioners be tossed aside as well as Obama.

Obama (oppressor and oppressed) and his speech are asking this question and the answer, in John's thinking, may come with the outcome of the nomination. If white people respond to Wright by killing Obama's chances then the nuanced discussion that John, Glenn and Barack want to have will probably not occur. Of course there are other factors other than racism in Obama losing but I think that is what they are talking about.

The question in my way of thinking is do white people really understand that only they can end racism. They are the majority in numbers and more importantly in power. Black people can be racist but that doesn't affect society at large in the same way.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:13 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

"it was a shocking revelation to millions of people who do not share black victimhood"

This comment is almost painful in the obvious lack of even basic comprehension of this speech - or of American social reality.

Perhaps this diavlog should have been titled "If it wasn't obvious too many white people are incredibly stupid, it sure is now!"
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:17 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: "The Conversation"

Kausophile:

Quote:
Sorry. According to WMP, it's from about 20:55 to 23:08 (when Prof. Loury says, "All right, John, I see where you're going with this.")
No need to apologize. Could be my bad. I didn't mean to sound critical; I was just offering a suggestion. Anyway, to your original question ...

Quote:
I don't think I understand John's point about "the conversation about race" that he says "black people" want to have. ... Glenn says he sees where John is "going with this." I don't. Can anyone help? Wouldn't a "conversation" go two ways, and not be only about what one side wants the other side to hear? Or is this John's point -- that this desired "conversation" has been defined in a special way? Thanks for your aid.
I think your guess is about right. At least, that's what I heard. John leads in by saying, in part "... the non-black United States is really tired of the notion that societal racism is still something that the moral white person needs to attend to." He goes on to talk about "the conversation" being "... a euphemism for 'white people need to be taught' ..."

I think he makes a solid point, although I think he's overgeneralizing. While there's no disputing that some black people mean it exactly this way, and too many white people hear it only this way, I think there are also a lot of people of all colors who do, in fact, want the talking and listening to be a two-way street.

For example, me. I don't deny that I have a lot to learn, but I also think I have some things to say and some questions that I'd like answered. I'm going to hold off on those for the moment, since if I were to commit them to text, I'd really want to work on them.

To be fair about it, John does bracket this whole bit with a conditional, paraphrased as: ... if Obama loses and it's because of this, then it seems that ...

So that's what I heard from John. Hope that helps.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:21 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
"it was a shocking revelation to millions of people who do not share black victimhood"

This comment is almost painful in the obvious lack of even basic comprehension of this speech - or of American social reality.

Perhaps this diavlog should have been titled "If it wasn't obvious too many white people are incredibly stupid, it sure is now!"
Who are you quoting? I didn't write that, but your post appears in the thread bracket as a reply to something I wrote.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-21-2008, 02:28 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

a Duoist:

Quote:
Millions of Americans who never joined in a civil rights march--and wish they had--or who have never had a black couple over for dinner--and wish they had--saw in Senator Obama's campaign an opportunity to finally participate personally in putting the American racial divide into the past. The speech lost those waffling, but basically sincere, American voters who wanted to cast their vote as a personal expression of a better America.
"Sincere" is an awfully forgiving way to put it. I might say of such people, "Those insular white Americans who up until a few days ago thought black America began with Fat Albert & The Cosby Kids and ended with Michael Jordan giving Kevin Bacon a noogie in an underwear commercial had their warm fuzzy ripped off like a bandaid from a hairy thigh."

In the realpolitik sense, I don't disagree with your assessment. Undoubtedly, there will be those who find reality too hurtful or frightening, and will shy away from Obama as a consequence. I cannot forgive such immaturity.

However, I give the average person a lot more credit than that. I do think that lots of white Americans will take this as a wake up call, and after the shock wears off, will say, "Man, if the problem is that bad, then maybe it really does make sense to elect the guy who speaks the truth about it."
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:02 PM
a Duoist a Duoist is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 108
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Senator Obama's campaign has tapped into a vast resevoir of well-wishing whites; those who cringe at the suggestion of collective 'white guilt' but who nevertheless very much want to be part of an America where "character counts more than color."

The choice between Inclusion or Exclusion has been an active part of the African American political experience, right up to Dr. King and Minister Farakhan; Reverend Wright's sermons are in the separatist tradition. Many millions of white Americans who go to church on Sunday do not experience anything like the language or psychology expressed in Reverend Wright's pulpit orations. For those millions--many are honestly considering voting for Senator Obama to be president--the shock at Reverend Wright's views from the pulpit will trigger a re-assessment of whether or not to vote for Senator Obama.

Senator Obama has established himself as an Inclusionist, one candidate for all Americans. But his tolerance for the Exclusionist's sermons diminishes the force of his argument. That dichotomy will play out on Election Day.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:32 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: If Obama Wasn't Black Before, He Sure Is Now

Quote:
There''s no way Obama can win with you -- that's clear enough. Fortunately he doesn't have to win you over. I just hope he can get a majority of the voting electorate in November.
Well, that's the big question, of course. How much will this hurt him in November? And if he seriously tanks in polls, Hillary could have a case before November.

This is a polarizing event.

Obama supporters, like those of us who post on Bheads, will be more deeply committed to him because we now see him as under attack by the bigots of Fox News, etc.

Obama opponents will see the specter of Wright behind his every word, have their prejudice against his wife reinforced, and mistrust him henceforth.

Will the election be decided by undereducated "independents" who are so out of touch that they're susceptible to the most subliminal fear inducing ads? Obama the Muslim didn't work. But Obama the covert Black Panther may. Stay tuned.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:42 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Sorry Elvis

That comment was the one above yours - from "duoist."
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:54 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Additional note...

Brucds, that's an excellent point.

My Biblical knowledge is admittedly slim, but wasn't one of the key elements that makes the story of Jesus so inspiring, the fact that he was radical in his defiance and criticism of the state of Rome? I thought the "revolutionary" call to put God before country, and stand up and point out the ills of society was one of the big selling-points of Christianity?

I guess the apostles should have denounced him and quit the church after that kind of extremist, un-patriotic rabble ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:54 PM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: If Obama Wasn't Black Before, He Sure Is Now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Well, that's the big question, of course. How much will this hurt him in November? And if he seriously tanks in polls, Hillary could have a case before November.

This is a polarizing event.

Obama supporters, like those of us who post on Bheads, will be more deeply committed to him because we now see him as under attack by the bigots of Fox News, etc.

Obama opponents will see the specter of Wright behind his every word, have their prejudice against his wife reinforced, and mistrust him henceforth.

Will the election be decided by undereducated "independents" who are so out of touch that they're susceptible to the most subliminal fear inducing ads? Obama the Muslim didn't work. But Obama the covert Black Panther may. Stay tuned.
Stay tuned indeed.
It is almost as if they planned to leave us hanging on for more when at the end of the diavlog Glenn was unable to respond to John's question about why he still endorses Clinton?
Taking Wonderment's point about a Clinton resurrection to its extreme, can most Obama supporters make the jump?

And now if you will excuse the paranoid fantasy... Did the interference that John and Glenn were experiencing on their phone line raise any red flags? Party lines do not exist anymore do they? What kind of technology do the bhtv'ers use to connect?
Ok - here is the fantasy part - The lines were infiltrated by the same operatives who breeched Obama's passport files.
Just kidding, but does anyone think that either of these things was weird or possibly nefarious?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:59 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Jesus said to the "rich establishment":

"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, [6] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem."

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate..."


Unless and until Barack Obama denounces and rejects his ties with this angry raving lunatic who believs his own country is damned to hell, he is not fit to be President.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:13 PM
Gravy Gravy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 50
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Senator Obama gave this speech in the midst of a hotly contested election campaign and its purpose was plainly to influence the outcome of the election. This is entirely natural, but it seems to have mostly escaped the notice of McWhorter and Loury. McWhorter in particular bemoans that the speech probably was well received by a million brie-eating, New York Times-reading white folks, but lots of other white folks did not like or accept the messages in the speech. Well, who was Sen. Obama trying to influence? Maybe much of the Democratic party superdelegates fall squarely within the brie-eating, New York Times-reading, white folks segment. In which case, maybe the speech was a home run for his near-term political objective. If, rather, he was trying to influence the sentiments of the rest of the hypothesized white folk community, then maybe he simply gave the wrong speech!

As for his grandmother, even if she gave her consent to be used this way, Sen. Obama showed pretty poor political instincts to use her so. Pastor Wright is a public-figure who can make whatever case he wants for himself more than adequately. Sen. Obama's grandmother, on the other hand, is not a public figure - in fact we have no independent way of knowing what Sen. Obama said about her is even factual. Here is what I think I know: Sen. Obama's black family gave him basically no support while his white family did. So when it is time to abuse a family member's reputation in this campaign...let's use white grandma. Good job, Sen. Obama!
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:18 PM
Kausophile Kausophile is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9
Default Re: "The Conversation"

That does help, bjkeefe, thanks.....But! ... What still throws me off, after listening to him again, is that Prof. McWhorter seems genuinely disappointed that the one-sided "conversation" may not take place. I suppose, as Prof. Loury says early on, this is not what I'd expect John McWhorter to say. So I'm still not sure I'm hearing him right, and I remain intrigued. Maybe half a conversation is better than none. I wish bhtv had a head-scratching icon.

Others?

[Btw -- any playwrights out there? Darn good dramatic idea: Gradually raise the tension between two (or three? five?) Americans of different races or ethnicities thrown together by circumstance, until boom! in Act 3, they have a brutally honest "conversation about race" of the kind bjkeefe and I think we'd want to have, or hear, and for some reason they actually listen and respond directly to each other without name-calling. (I don't know why that would happen.) How would it end?]
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:20 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

What bullshit - your concern for Obama's grandmother rings totally false and hypocritical. Is this the best you can dredge up from your obviously quite shallow soul in response to Obama's speech ? Obama had used this same example in his book many years ago. I'm sure Grandma can handle it. Folks like you - and Kreepy Kaus - are running empty. It's sad really.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:10 PM
Anyuser Anyuser is offline
Deactivated User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 141
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucds View Post
What bullshit - Is this the best you can dredge up from your obviously quite shallow soul in response to Obama's speech ?
That doesn't sound like something Jesus would say! You and bjkeefe should team up and go into business as political consultants.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 185
Default Last of the pre-hip hop generation?

I've made this comment before: John and Glenn set the gold standard for bhtv diavlogs.

Although he looks younger, Obama is exactly the same age as a few guys I knew growing up who were from inner city and poor rural backgrounds but through an "exchange" program went to high school in an earnestly liberal, largely white suburb. As adults, they took on African names, and no doubt listened to and perhaps even said things I'd find painful to hear. Still, the pleasure of seeing them at social functions every few years is untainted by fear that they secretly harbor hatred towards America or European-Americans. Here's the thing: I've known them for 30 years. America has barely known Obama for two. This is why he won't be elected in '08, but he'll have the opportunity to lead on many issues, probably to help the country revisit this important conversation, and perhaps even run again successfully as he becomes better known and more accomplished.

I leave it to more erudite people like John McWhorter to say whether there's anything to this, but guys only a few years younger would have been in college during the big first wave of commercial hip-hop (take Run-DMC's first album as a marker), and conversations involving race would have been quite a bit more open. Obama's unique background might easily explain why he'd be the proverbial quiet kid in the back of the class, but perhaps he also represents the very tail end of the last generation for whom Shelby Steele's "bargain" requires masking such an apparently large gap between the public and semi-public selves.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:21 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: "The Conversation"

Kausophile:

Quote:
What still throws me off, after listening to him again, is that Prof. McWhorter seems genuinely disappointed that the one-sided "conversation" may not take place.
Huh. That was not the vibe I picked up from him.

Your idea for a play sounds good. Might need to be written by a team, unless the playwright is unusually sensitive and aware of the multiple viewpoints he or she would want to present.

Quote:
How would it end?
I vote for the entire cast singing Kumbaya, but in some highly ironic, melancholic, mashed-up, or twisted way.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:26 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

With all the ethnic groups and races in the U.S. represented in authoritative positions with fine diverse educational backgrounds and areas of expertise it is sad that people have to go to church to hear about politics, law, economics, and other secular topics from a preacher who is not skilled in any of the subjects.

Also, perhaps someone here can answer this question I have. Why are black churches the only ones that are inundated with politicans before an election? Being a lapsed Roman Catholic I never saw anything like this occur when attending services over a period of several years.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:33 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyuser View Post
That doesn't sound like something Jesus would say! You and bjkeefe should team up and go into business as political consultants.
I would be honored to be so partnered. What about it, brucds? Sounds like we already have a slogan:

Quote:
B&B Consulting: We Don't Talk Like Jesus
All messages guaranteed 100% Aramaic-free!
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:36 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

bkj:

Quote:
Also, perhaps someone here can answer this question I have. Why are black churches the only ones that are inundated with politicans before an election?
Have you forgotten all the white evangelical churches filled with Republicans?
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:49 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Gravy:

Quote:
Well, who was Sen. Obama trying to influence? Maybe much of the Democratic party superdelegates fall squarely within the brie-eating, New York Times-reading, white folks segment. In which case, maybe the speech was a home run for his near-term political objective.
That's a fairly intelligent thought.

However, my sense of the speech is that Obama did his level best to say what he honestly believed, in the best way that he could appeal to the general populace without compromising on his beliefs. There were some moments of obvious politicking, to be sure, like the reminder about Geraldine Ferraro, but I don't think he aimed his speech at any particular sub-group.

The thing is, a speech aimed at the brie-eating superdelegates would probably not work, for at least two reasons. One, most of the SDs are not, in fact, of that stereotype. Recall that every Senator and Representative is a superdelegate, as are people like state party chairs. That is, a broad sweep of cultural types. (Some of who, I feel certain, prefer Camembert. ;^))

Second, the SDs are going to vote in large part based on two things: what the voters have said in the primaries, and who they think has the better shot at winning the general. A speech which consciously targeted your hypothetical group of elites at the expense of tanking among the millions of fans of Cheez Whiz would therefore be a bad trade-off.

If Obama were that kind of calculating politician. Which I don't think he is.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:51 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: If Obama Wasn't Black Before, He Sure Is Now

graz:

Quote:
Stay tuned indeed.
It is almost as if they planned to leave us hanging on for more when at the end of the diavlog Glenn was unable to respond to John's question about why he still endorses Clinton?
My very thought, when that moment occurred. This suggests that it was Bob Wright who was jamming the call. And I bet we'll have to sit through commercials before we get to see Part 2.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Glaurunge Glaurunge is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a Duoist View Post
The choice between Inclusion or Exclusion has been an active part of the African American political experience, right up to Dr. King and Minister Farakhan; Reverend Wright's sermons are in the separatist tradition. Many millions of white Americans who go to church on Sunday do not experience anything like the language or psychology expressed in Reverend Wright's pulpit orations.
Duoist, can you give any specific examples or evidence that would lead one reasonably to conclude that Wright is in the "separatist" tradition? Moreover, why are you even comparing him Wright to Farrakhan when Farrakhan isn't even a Christian? Seriously, can you provide anything at all to suggest Wright is a black separatist? That's a pretty serious charge, and you shouldn't go making it if you can't back it up.

Incidentally, if you'd like to see the unedited version of the excerpt that's been playing on Fox 24/7 for the past week, you can see it here.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:24 PM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: If Obama Wasn't Black Before, He Sure Is Now

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
graz:
My very thought, when that moment occurred. This suggests that it was Bob Wright who was jamming the call. And I bet we'll have to sit through commercials before we get to see Part 2.
And I'll bet that Bob will make us sit through another slog with Mickey before the pleasure of Loury/McWhorter. Maybe Bob isn't a nice man after all.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:41 PM
Anyuser Anyuser is offline
Deactivated User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 141
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaurunge View Post
Incidentally, if you'd like to see the unedited version of the excerpt that's been playing on Fox 24/7 for the past week, you can see it here.
This unedited version is very interesting and revealing. I hope Obama and his supporters get more of this out.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:42 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Brendan,

Could you give some examples of what republican or democratic politicians visit what white evangelical churches right before an election. I'll make it easy give me one example, just one.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:46 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: If Obama Wasn't Black Before, He Sure Is Now

My first thought was that Glen was just trying to avoid answering the question. Then I thought maybe John's arguments had been so strong that Glen was feeling doubt and considering switching to Obama. Then I remembered the technical difficulties they had been having throughout.

Your theory of "Bob interrupting" is more interesting.

When it's all said and done, this speech HAS prompted a discussion (at least with people of the BH mentality who LIKE discussion) so that's a pretty good thing.

Happy Friday!!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Anyuser Anyuser is offline
Deactivated User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 141
Default More

If you're an Obama supporter, check out this page: http://www.youtube.com/user/TRINITYCHGO. People need to see this.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:58 PM
brucds brucds is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 940
Default What would Jesus say ?

Yeah, I'm not up to the "Jesus" standard. I'll let him speak for himself. Meanwhile, I refuse to suffer fools lightly, i.e the hypocrites feigning hysteria over this - or who willfully and malevolently refuse to engage Obama's speech with even minimal standards of honesty and intellect.

bjkeefe - I'm an arrogant asshole but I'm not sure I'm up to the "political consultant" standard...yet.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:05 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: What would Jesus say ?

brucds:

Quote:
bjkeefe - I'm an arrogant asshole but I'm not sure I'm up to the "political consultant" standard...yet.
Don't forget: every campaign needs a few attack dogs. You could be the one that goes on Fox and forces Bill O'Reilly to cut your mike.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:10 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Good Friday

An interesting and entertaining post from Charles Pierce via Eric Alterman's blog:

For those of us of the Papist persuasion, Good Friday services always came as two hours of existential dread. Purple swatches all over the sanctuary. Gloomy hymns. Latin intoned with an extra-special kind of lugubrious Lugosiness. More to the point of the past week, the Good Friday liturgy was a carnival of anti-Semitism, an extended exercise in Jew-bashing so egregious that even the Vatican came to notice it several centuries on. Now, I know I sat through this. I know Russert, and Matthews, and Maureen Dowd, and Pat Buchanan -- and JFK and John Kerry, as well -- also did. This wasn't the improvised rhetoric of one pastor in one church. This was the formalized celebration of Christ's Passion, performed in exactly the same way in front of millions of people in thousands of churches all over the world. So here's the thing, Mo and Tim and Chris. (I leave out Buchanan because, hell, he probably thinks the liturgy was too diverse.) Did sitting through this make you anti-Semitic? And to what degree? And have you ever rejected and renounced 2,000 years of popes -- to say nothing of the church over which they presided -- because they authorized this dangerous thooleramawnery? if you haven't, you should probably lay off Barack Obama and his minister, is all's I'm saying.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:18 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Brendan,

Could you give some examples of what republican or democratic politicians visit what white evangelical churches right before an election. I'll make it easy give me one example, just one.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...rpc=22&sp=true
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-21-2008, 07:21 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: Good Friday

Nasty LIEbruls through MSM and Pope under the bus!!!11!
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-21-2008, 08:56 PM
January January is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 46
Default Best Diavlog ever!

Please bring these two thoughtful gentleman on as many times as they are willing to talk.

Like John, I've been wholly saddened by the response to Obama's speech. Some whites seem to be shocked to find out that not all has been forgiven in the black community. I can live with Obama's candidacy failing because he may not be as skillful as the other guy. But if it fails because whites can't get past their own self-admiration at having gotten past racism, I won't blame black voters for staying home in disgust, come this November.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-21-2008, 09:02 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Brendan,

Thanks for the information. It does happen: Huckabee at Hagee's church. What a pair.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-22-2008, 03:39 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. SaŽah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

bkjazfan:

To be fair about it, there is a little something to your point about politicians visiting predominantly black churches more frequently than predominantly white churches. There are at least two reasons I can think of:

1. The church is more likely to be a focal point and community gathering place for black people. There are any number of reasons for this; one pedestrian one might be that black groups historically have not exactly had so many other big buildings at their disposal. I think this would be (have been) especially true where blacks are a minority in a locality. And until recently, economic reasons added to this: why rent out a hall when you can use the church for free?

2. The mechanics of politicians reaching out to predominantly white churches, Catholic ones in many neighborhoods historically, and especially evangelical ones recently, often works in a way different from politicians visiting churches directly. To oversimplify a bit, it works like this: religious leaders gain access to the candidate for private and small group meetings. These leaders then return to their churches and spread the message of the candidate, report on promises extracted, etc.

I think there's also a tendency for the mostly white megachurches to be able to take advantage of expensive technology -- the candidate appears on giant screens in the churches via satellite links, for example.

It's inarguable that white evangelical leaders have significant political clout in their own right, too. This is not to say that no black preachers have any, but the disparity is pretty huge. Many televangelists own their own TV stations or cable channels and run huge production companies. Many prominent white evangelicals get as much air time as any politician on the MSM. Think Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Tony Perkins, etc. Their agenda on issues is one they set; politicians looking for their support must embrace that agenda.

You could respond, I suppose, with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, both of whom like to have "Rev." prepended to their names. I don't think these are exactly parallel. For many blacks in America up until at least the 1960s, the church was one of the few paths for advancement, especially if your skills lay primarily in dealing with people. You see a similar social structure in historical Europe, one that lasted a millennium: about the only way to get ahead was to join the church. So I think of Jackson and Sharpton, and probably ML King, as primarily politicians who joined the church to further their political goals, while I see the prominent white evangelicals primarily as religious people who make political alliances to further their religious goals. Lots of oversimplification there, to be sure, but I think it's an accurate first cut.

There's no doubt that politicians, especially Republicans, have to walk a bit of a tightrope here. They do want to court white evangelicals, which have been a big part of their base lately, but they also are aware that too much obvious pandering can be used against them.

On the flip side, there is not nearly as much of a negative perception about black churchgoers. (Or, has not been until the last couple of weeks.) There's a lot of irrationality at work here, no doubt, and it may even be reasonable to say that a double standard exists, although I don't like the implication of that phrase as usually employed.

The bottom line, it seems to me, is that politicians can visit black churches specifically, while the white churchgoers are often wooed in other, one-step-removed, sorts of ways.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-22-2008, 11:41 AM
jaoneal jaoneal is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
Default White & Black Poverty

I think John's suggestion that the best way forward for getting white's more interested in the problems of concentrated black poverty is by drawing analogies with it to white poverty is probably NOT the way one should go.

There is a term for the types of white people they are talking about that they don't mention--i.e. "poor white trash". There is a reason that the term "trash" is used; middle class whites do not generally see these people as part of a social problem to be addressed, but rather as something to be kicked to the curb and "taken out".

Even amongst southern right-wingers, most DO see predominantly black urban ghettos as a kind social ill. They may not agree with liberals on what should be done about it, but they do see it as a kind of singular problem.

This simply is not the case for "trailer trash". If anything, middle class whites view such people with even more fear and resentment than they do lower class blacks. It's not the same "fear of a black planet", hide your wallet, type of fear--rather it is the fear of facing the possibility that this could be your meth addicted son or daughter one day. While John might think that sympathy is the natural reaction here, I can tell you--it isn't. Quite the opposite. Hatred that such a possibility even exists gets focused on its embodiment.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 03-22-2008, 11:53 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: White equivalent to Rev. Wright.

Brendan,

I think you analyzed the situation very well.

A similiar analogy could be made with Hispanics and the catholic church. This is a place that they have always congregated. Perhaps, less so now with their numbers rising in evangelical denominations and others moving up the economic ladder. However, and I may be wrong here but the catholic church does not like to cater to politicans glad handing in front of their congregations during mass. At least that has been my experience while having attended mostly white and Hispanic masses.

I am beginning to notice a small number of blacks who do not care for their churches being turned into conduits for politicans. There reasons are primarily the ones I previously gave: (1) churches are a places of worship not politics (2) there are many blacks now with high levels of expertise in political science, international relations, economics, and and a host of other disciplines who should be sought out for information instead of the local minister who is trained primarily in theology.

Thanks for your reply.

John
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:21 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: Good Friday

As a lapsed catholic it didn't make me anti-semitic but I did find it to be dull and boring. Oh, I think Pat Buchanan is happy since the Latin Mass has been approved by the new pope. The traditional catholics as they like to be called attend these services.
Reply With Quote
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.