Go Back   Bloggingheads Community > Diavlog comments
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Diavlog comments Post comments about particular diavlogs here.
(Users cannot create new threads.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
BhTV staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,936
Default Fireworks over Tehran

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-02-2008, 04:01 PM
andythornton andythornton is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Given that I was about 9 when Band Aid's Do They Know It's Christmas came out I may have a slightly confused understanding of the title. As a 9 year old, I figured *everyone* in the world KNEW it was Christmas, but the fact people in Ethiopia were dying of starvation they, unlike me, wouldn't be wondering if they were getting a space hopper for xmas. i.e. can you possibly celebrate christmas in such conditions.

And for the record, Do They Know It's Christmas was way better than We Are The World. Plus, it came out 4 months earlier too--which I think speaks volumes about why We Are The World "came at the end of everyone paying attention to the same thing" (as Heather said). Those four months were crucial in how public awareness was raised about the famine (at least in the UK).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-02-2008, 04:25 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Andy, agreed on all counts.

Maybe I suffer from the deep-seated "UK is superior to America in music meme", but the group of artists that made up Band-Aid (U2, George Michael, Bob Geldoff, Howard Jones etc.) seemed infinitely cooler than most of the shlubs that America brought out (Dionne Warwick, Michael Jackson, Al Jarreau, Darryl Hall, Lionel Ritchie). Yeah I know some of these guys were bad-ass once upon a time, (Stevie Wonder, Bruce, Dylan etc.) but most of them were at low points, musically, in their careers. And like you said "DTKIC" was a way better song than "WATW" which basically sounded like a straight-to-muzak formulation of cheese that one of those "professional" composers shoves down the public's throat every so often (see: That'a What Friends Are For)...ugh.

There was also a heavy metal "hunger" project that raised probably a couple hundred bucks for the cause.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:38 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post

There was also a heavy metal "hunger" project that raised probably a couple hundred bucks for the cause.
Thank you for reminding me of the greatness that was Hear N' Aid's "Stars", the most awesome anti-hunger song ever. A song that lasted over SEVEN MINUTES so that every contributing guitarist could have his own guitar solo.

Of course, there's a fine line between unintentionally hilarious (i.e., Hear N' Aid) and purely awful. To illustrate, I refer you to the video for "Tears Are Not Enough", a charity single by Northern Lights, a "supergroup" of Canadian recording artists.

Last edited by Thus Spoke Elvis; 07-02-2008 at 05:45 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-02-2008, 04:46 PM
rfannan rfannan is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 13
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Regarding Uncle Ebeneezer's comments about We are The World:

George Michael "infinitely cooler" than American pop stars? Are you kidding? The words George Michael and infinitely cooler have never before been heard in the same sentence. And Bruce being in a low point musically when he participated? His last album before the recording was Born in the USA, his biggest seller of all time, and his tour before the recording was the very biggest on the planet.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:52 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Rfannan, sorry I meant to put an * next to George Michael's name on that list. I knew someone was going to point that one out. Still, if I was going to be tortured musically I would still say that Dionne Warwick, bad Stevie (I Just Called), Cindy Lauper, MJ (everything EXCEPT about 6 songs off Off the Wall and Thriller), Kenny Rogers (any song besides the Gambler), etc., etc. would inspire greater fear in me than even the garbage that was "Wham!"

Born In the USA might have been Bruce's biggest album but it was artistically a relatively low-point compared to his earlier (and later) stuff. I don't necesarily blame him, he was competing with the Huey Lewis' and the generally bubble-gum 80's music scene, but still if I were Brittish looking back on Band-Aid I don't think I would wince as badly as I do as an American when I see the old We Are the World video. Even the artists I like: Dylan, Bruce, Stevie, Ray Charles, were SO over-the-top, it was as if they had been hired to do imitations of themselves.

Not to mention, it was a total ripoff of Band-Aid in concept. I applaud the effort and the $ it raised, but it's hard to praise it for originality when it copied an idea from only four months earlier and sounded like every other adult-contemporary song ever written.

Do They Know It's Christmas is admittedly hokey 20 years later but We Are the World is downright unlistenable.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-02-2008, 09:28 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfannan View Post
Regarding Uncle Ebeneezer's comments about We are The World:

George Michael "infinitely cooler" than American pop stars? Are you kidding? The words George Michael and infinitely cooler have never before been heard in the same sentence. And Bruce being in a low point musically when he participated? His last album before the recording was Born in the USA, his biggest seller of all time, and his tour before the recording was the very biggest on the planet.
All true. Besides which, it's a mathematical impossibility to be infinitely cooler than Tom Waits.

QED
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:32 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

AemJeff, was Tom Waits in USAforAfrica?

As for a Brit who is infinitely cooler than Tom Waits...Jimmy Page. I mean the guy not only still rocks at 160 years old, but he bought a house owned by Aleister Crowley for Chissakes. Not too mention John Lennon. Shit, I'd still put Ozzy in 1st place if I wasn't still holding him personally responsible (partially at least) for the cultural genocide that is "reality tv";-)

I've always thought that Tom Waits was (gasp) overrated. Though he was pretty hysterical on the first reality show (and great stoner show) "Fishing with Jon."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:52 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
I've always thought that Tom Waits was (gasp) overrated.
(gasp) indeed! Evidence for my point of view..

Dunno about USAForAfrica, though I doubt it. I like Page, but I'll nominate Brian Eno and John Cale as coolest Brit musicians. Ultimately though, I'll stand by my assertion - it's just not possible to be cooler than Tom Waits! Even Chuck E. Weiss doesn't quite measure up to that standard.

By the way if Fishing With John is appealing to you (I loved that series, probably unsurprisingly own the DVD set) see Jim Jarmusch's Down By Law with Lurie and Waits starring with Roberto Benigni.
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-03-2008, 12:36 AM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
By the way if Fishing With John is appealing to you (I loved that series, probably unsurprisingly own the DVD set) see Jim Jarmusch's Down By Law with Lurie and Waits starring with Roberto Benigni.
Which contains the best version ever of "I scream , you scream, we all scream for ice-cream."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:00 PM
Eastwest Eastwest is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 592
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Eli started out seeming so uncharacteristically sweet and reasonable, I figured he must have dropped acid or something, but by the time the DV moved to its treatment of the nature of political discourse in the US, I was back to my previous conviction that Eli Lake is definitely hard-wired at the DNA level for political partisanship and disingenuousness and frankly is utterly incapable of stepping outside of that box to admit even the most obvious points made by conversational challengers.

EW
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:36 PM
Mensch Mensch is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwest View Post
Eli started out seeming so uncharacteristically sweet and reasonable, I figured he must have dropped acid or something, but by the time the DV moved to its treatment of the nature of political discourse in the US, I was back to my previous conviction that Eli Lake is definitely hard-wired at the DNA level for political partisanship and disingenuousness and frankly is utterly incapable of stepping outside of that box to admit even the most obvious points made by conversational challengers.

EW
Likewise, Heather's patronizing was held in check for a few minutes, before the lecturing "Eli, Eli" cadences began. It's distracting and condescending, Heather, and suggests a lack of respect for your debating partner, Heather.

And what's with the characterization of the smear campaign being completely one-sided (some Republicans are trying to their darndest to push us back into the smear cycle, and Democrats are pushing back as hard as they can)? Seriously? Eli is correct to call that argument disingenuous.

On the other hand, Heather is spot on about "Do They Know It's Christmas" being a better song musically than "We Are The World," though arguing the merits of these songs reminds me of the memorable South Park debate between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:22 PM
Sgt Schultz Sgt Schultz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 69
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

the group of artists that made up Band-Aid (U2, George Michael, Bob Geldoff, Howard Jones etc.) seemed infinitely cooler than most of the shlubs that America brought out


I blame the organizers of USA for Africa.
Laura Nyro had more talent in one of her pinkies than the entirety of Band Aid.
I can't imagine she would have refused an invitation.
But I've always suspected Michael Jackson was just too bitchy to be sharing a stage with such a soulful singer-songwriter,
who was so much a better singer, so much a better songwriter, so much whiter and so much chick-ier than himself.
Even in his wildest fantasies.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:27 PM
gwlaw99 gwlaw99 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 260
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

My question for Heather is if there is ANY point short of Iranian nuclear missles being launched that she would say diplomacy has failed and bomb Iranian nuclear sites?

Or is she really saying that the millitary option is completely off the table (we just aren't going to come out and say it is)?

This seems to be a good answer to Heather's question about the recent Israeli millitary maneuvers

"Iran open to incentives on nuclear activities (Roundup)"

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...ties__Roundup_

Last edited by gwlaw99; 07-02-2008 at 06:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-02-2008, 05:44 PM
handle handle is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,986
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post
My question for Heather is if there is ANY point short of Iranian nuclear missles being launched that she would say diplomacy has failed and bomb Iranian nuclear sites?

Or is she really saying that the millitary option is completely off the table (we just aren't going to come out and say it is)?
"Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Last edited by handle; 07-02-2008 at 05:46 PM.. Reason: punc.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:11 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

The discussion of Iranian nukes must be in the context of establishing a nuclear-free Middle East and soon a nuclear-free world.

A nuclear Iran IS a danger to the world, but so is a nuclear Israel, Pakistan, India and the USA>

If Obama is serious about the abolition of nuclear weapons, we could make great strides toward achieving that in the next 8 years.

There is a lot of accumulating hawk credibility in favor of the abolition of nukes: Kissinger, George Schultz, William Perry and US vice-president shortlister, Sam Nunn.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-03-2008, 12:39 AM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Schultz View Post
[I]
Laura Nyro had more talent in one of her pinkies than the entirety of Band Aid.
I have at least seven of her songs on regular rotation on my ipod.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-02-2008, 07:04 PM
Sgt Schultz Sgt Schultz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 69
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

We're both lapel free in honor of Fourth of July. I think that's fitting.

Really?
How exactly does that work?
Because, let's hear you go on and on about how that's something other than just plain Freudian slippage, honey.

And oh, btw. Where exactly were the Swift Boat guys wrong, out of line, illegal, or unethical?
In Other Words - It's been ages now, please direct all of us to Kerry's rebuttal of the pertinent facts.
And is it true this election there's going to be an anti-McCain 527, john-kerrys-hat.com

wrt Iran - What is it with women and their perception of the value of dialoguing even in the face of cold reality?
You know who was dialoguing right up to the very end? Nicole Simpson. Guaranteed.
The Goldman kid? All he said was, "Oh, shit!" while thinking, "I wish I had a gun. I'd shoot this guy in the face."
Unprepared for reality vs. chatty while unprepared for reality - I choose - Prepared for reality.

Speaking of reality - if Heather had a man stalking her the way Ahmadinejad's Iran has been stalking Israel -
would she be frantically texting Mahmoud?
Or would she have dialed 911 and demanded that SWAT kick in his door and render his threats... impotent?

P.S. - Please, please, please tell me you play poker doll face.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-02-2008, 08:39 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Schultz View Post
And oh, btw. Where exactly were the Swift Boat guys wrong, out of line, illegal, or unethical?
In Other Words - It's been ages now, please direct all of us to Kerry's rebuttal of the pertinent facts.
In making shit up wholesale about a fellow veteran. Kerry had absolutely no obligation to answer the unsupported gutter garbage that those idiots floated during an election. Instead of asking for Kerry's rebuttal you should be asking them for evidence.
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-02-2008, 08:45 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,593
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

I guess it's was the Grinch that gave him his "lucky hat" on that visited him in Cambodia on the Christmas day and not Santa because it sure turned out to be unlucky and lost it's magic in 2004.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-02-2008, 08:55 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
I guess it's was the Grinch that gave him his "lucky hat" on that visited him in Cambodia on the Christmas day and not Santa because it sure turned out to be unlucky and lost it's magic in 2004.
Ok Pisc, now turn the hat story into support for the substantive allegations made by the Swiftboaters. At best it sets Kerry's story against Gardner's, and Gardner is a card-carrying Swiftboater. That's a might circular, wouldn't you say?
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-02-2008, 09:12 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Let's be clear what the "substantive allegations" are:

Quote:
It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.
They went so far as to suggest he'd received his medals under false pretenses.

The Cambodia story is at best a side show in this context.

The following is a quote from John McCain:
Quote:
I condemn the [SBVT] ad. It is dishonest and dishonorable. I think it is very, very wrong
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:39 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,593
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Kerry's Cambodia Whopper
Quote:
However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was faulty. When the Swift boat veterans who oppose Kerry presented statements from his commanders and members of his unit denying that his boat entered Cambodia, none of Kerry's shipmates came forward, as they had on other issues, to corroborate his account. Two weeks ago Kerry's spokesmen began to backtrack. First, one campaign aide explained that Kerry had patrolled the Mekong Delta somewhere "between" Cambodia and Vietnam. But there is no between; there is a border. Then another spokesman told reporters that Kerry had been "near Cambodia." But the point of Kerry's 1986 speech was that he personally had taken part in a secret and illegal war in a neutral country. That was only true if he was "in Cambodia," as he had often said he was. If he was merely "near," then his deliberate misstatement falsified the entire speech.
As far as the adds go it is a he said she said affair with no definitive proof one way or the other. But as his testimony to Congress showed his propensity to exaggerate and dissimulate, his and others Vietnam experiences, and his Christmas story confirms it is difficult to believe anything he had further to say along those lines.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:48 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Kerry's Cambodia WhopperAs far as the adds go it is a he said she said affair with no definitive proof one way or the other. But as his testimony to Congress showed his propensity to exaggerate and dissimulate, his and others Vietnam experiences, and his Christmas story confirms it is difficult to believe anything he had further to say along those lines.
Pisc, without proof it shouldn't have ever been brought up. They went after the basic facts of his military service without a shred of evidence. The Cambodia thing is no better established. Even if one were to grant that he lied about it - something for which there's no reason to assume, but even so - that allegation is trivia to compared what I characterized as their "substantive allegations." They lied. They lied maliciously. They did it with the explicit intention of doing harm. They should be remembered and despised.
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-03-2008, 08:53 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heartland Conservative
Posts: 4,933
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
They lied. They lied maliciously. They did it with the explicit intention of doing harm. They should be remembered and despised.
And they will be, and they are.

Another one of their little tactics was to all repeat, "I served with John Kerry in Vietnam." Even though the vast majority were nowhere near John Kerry while they were in Vietnam, never met him or saw him in country, and had no first hand knowledge of anything he did or anything that happened.

They "served with John Kerry in Vietnam" the way people who never met "worked together at X corporation" or "went to school with so-and-so at Y University." This clever use (abuse) of language left a false impression on the public, namely that these men literally served alongside Kerry and had firsthand experience that could directly refute his account of what happened. But, of course, the vast majority of them did not: they were just repeating the lies and slander crafted by John O'Neill, et al.

Again: This is the classic hatemonger's double-standard: They can attack American men and women in uniform all they want, but if you even blink the wrong way in the direction of someone in uniform, torrents of abuse will be unleashed in your direction.

The media is more than happy to enable this double-standard on behalf of Republicans, as the recent Wes Clark episode amply demonstrates.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-04-2008, 07:17 AM
sirfith sirfith is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 51
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
In making shit up wholesale about a fellow veteran. Kerry had absolutely no obligation to answer the unsupported gutter garbage that those idiots floated during an election. Instead of asking for Kerry's rebuttal you should be asking them for evidence.
So why didn't John Kerry sue the Swiftboaters for Libel as he threaten to do?
One Word
Discovery
As for Max Cleland, I remember he was being criticized for wanting to unionize the newly created Homeland Security department. And Cleland and Democrats response was "How dare you question his patriotism!!!".

Last edited by sirfith; 07-04-2008 at 07:21 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-04-2008, 11:32 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirfith View Post
So why didn't John Kerry sue the Swiftboaters for Libel as he threaten to do?
One Word
Discovery
As for Max Cleland, I remember he was being criticized for wanting to unionize the newly created Homeland Security department. And Cleland and Democrats response was "How dare you question his patriotism!!!".
What relevance does any of this have to the discussion?

Dissing Cleland's patriotism, a man who lost three limbs while serving, was about the most despicable political hit I've ever been witness to. In reminding people about it now you seem to be trying to make my point for me. Thanks.
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-04-2008, 02:52 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,593
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Actually the reason he doesn't sue probably has to do with the burden of proof that he would have to meet as a public figure. It is both burdensome and high almost to the point of ridiculousness. He could actually make his records available to all instead of 3 sympathetic MSM sources if it really concerned him though.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-16-2008, 08:11 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heartland Conservative
Posts: 4,933
Wink Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirfith View Post
So why didn't John Kerry sue the Swiftboaters for Libel as he threaten to do?
One Word
Discovery
As for Max Cleland, I remember he was being criticized for wanting to unionize the newly created Homeland Security department. And Cleland and Democrats response was "How dare you question his patriotism!!!".
You have this backwards: Cleland was not trying to unionize those employees; they were already unionized. The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress deunionized them. Most (if not all) federal employees were unionized prior to the creation of HSD, including tens of thousands who worked in other departments before they were rolled into homeland security.

This is how Republicans used 9/11: Not to unite the nation to face a grave threat, but as cover to carry out long-held Republican ambitions, in this case weakening the union protecting federal workers. The way they succeeded was by portraying opponents of this scam as the equivalent of Osama bin Laden. Truly disgusting, but also par for the course.

figured out that he could use the horrified reaction of the public to 9/11 to achieve long-standing Republican aims that had nothing to do with 9/11 or national security.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-02-2008, 09:21 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default In which Sgt Shultz Demonstrates his Ability to Read Minds Posthumously

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Schultz View Post
The Goldman kid? All he said was, "Oh, shit!" while thinking, "I wish I had a gun. I'd shoot this guy in the face."
Unprepared for reality vs. chatty while unprepared for reality - I choose - Prepared for reality.
Dude! I'm ecstatic that you're so well grounded in reality!
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:35 PM
handle handle is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,986
Default Re: In which Sgt Shultz Demonstrates his Ability to Read Minds Posthumously

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Dude! I'm ecstatic that you're so well grounded in reality!
Not to mention common sense, seriously, how many people who aren't the kind that are simply fascinated with guns are going to go to the trouble of packing heat 24/7 just for the extremely rare chance of thwarting an extremely rare attack.
That said I would resort to the use of firearms to defend your right to have a gun fetish. The personal firearm genie is out of the bottle, and I think it's political suicide to bring it up.
Back in '96 I worked with a group of Gen.Y rednecks and was completely astounded by the arsenals these guys had legally obtained. I asked one of them once if he ever worried about someone breaking in his house when he was gone and maybe getting shot with one of his own weapons to which he replied "I'm home most of the time". I could have sworn I saw him at work at least 8 hrs a day, so I was a little confused.
My point is, if you like guns, you will find all kinds of rationale to keep guns.
Grounded in reality or not.
The "real" Sgt. Schultz was very nonviolent, and didn't like carrying his gun, what gives?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-02-2008, 11:39 PM
marsbars marsbars is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
wrt Iran - What is it with women and their perception of the value of dialoguing even in the face of cold reality?
You know who was dialoguing right up to the very end? Nicole Simpson.
even if this post is a joke, it is so disrespectful, it should be taken off by someone who is paying attention. Besides the COLD fact that Nicole did not have a loaded gun and the whole world watching, like the US or Israel presumably would, it was in the face of COLD war reality that the US began a dialogue with the Soviet Union, a step which ultimately ignited the domestic opposition forces and led to the political unraveling from inside the system. Heather's analysis of a "strong negotiator" is subtle, insightful, and supported by history. Approaching an ideological and nuclear threat (which, by the way, was far from 'reasonable,' which is Eli's idea of being negotiation-worthy) in mid '80s was a huge gamble, and yet it was exactly what took the rug of anti-US propaganda from under the Soviet gov't feet, cracking its tight hold on the domestic political situation. This is exactly the hypothetical case Heather tries to make for Iran.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-02-2008, 08:43 PM
wovenstrap wovenstrap is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 41
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

I know a lot of people here dig Reihan Salam's eyebrow maneuvers, but personally, I really like watching Eli react facially to an argument he disagrees with, in real time. The constant head shakes and bumfuzzled looks of dismissal are awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-03-2008, 12:14 AM
a Duoist a Duoist is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 108
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

It would be so much more helpful to any discussion about Iran if the dialog included people who actually have read Imam Khomeini's 'learned jurisprudent' philosophy in his published works. "Talking" with Iran is a wonderful ideal, but "negotiating" with Iran is ever the position posed by people who have never read Imam Khomeini's written intentions.

Read what he wrote. Read what grounds the Iranian form of governance. Then argue about what is to be done about a nuclear armed Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-03-2008, 12:42 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa®ah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

I'm fascinated that 98% of the discussion in this forum is limited to a debate over which cheesy song is less cheesier. Could it be that the excessively long presidential campaign, and the media's obsession with its most trivial aspects, has damaged all of our brains?
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:05 AM
graz graz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,162
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I'm fascinated that 98% of the discussion in this forum is limited to a debate over which cheesy song is less cheesier. Could it be that the excessively long presidential campaign, and the media's obsession with its most trivial aspects, has damaged all of our brains?
Yes... but, I wasn't defending either of those cheese fests. Just giving a strong nod to Tom Waits and Laura Nyro - Oops I did it again. But I'm clearly burned out by the microscopic focus on trivialities. Iran and discussions thereof are in no way trivial. But even Heather and Eli seemed to reflexively default to defending their "Team." Who is smearing whom more smearier?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:09 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,750
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Oops I did it again.
Heh. And it's important to note that an occasional detour into the trivial is often a good thing.
__________________
-A. E. M. Jeff (Eponym)
Magnets - We know how they work!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:36 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa®ah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
... But I'm clearly burned out by the microscopic focus on trivialities. Iran and discussions thereof are in no way trivial. But even Heather and Eli seemed to reflexively default to defending their "Team." Who is smearing whom more smearier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Heh. And it's important to note that an occasional detour into the trivial is often a good thing.
Both true statements. BTW, I was commenting, not judging, and you'll have noted that I myself had nothing useful to say about the rest of the diavlog.

I admit the reality that the Iran situation is hard to discuss past what Eli and Heather said. I thought both did a very good job in presenting the two main points of view on the situation, even if they could not make each other budge. My first comment should have been a shoutout to that effect.

I am, of course, far more aligned with Heather on this issue -- I think the neocon position is 95% either fear-mongering or, in a few individuals' cases, a sincere expression of irrational fears. I believe we should be talking more seriously with Iran. I think the US's current position as I understand it asks them to make too many concessions up front (from a pragmatic, not fairness, point of view). I believe Obama will accomplish far more than McCain will. I think it's prudent to worry about what last gasp grasp for glory might be on the minds of Bush and Cheney.

All that said, though, I am not completely convinced that a theocracy can be treated as a rational actor when it comes to nuclear weapons. I think Iran is not completely gone, but I am not absolutely sure that the ayatollahs care enough about this world. And even apart from doomsday concerns, I worry about the prospect of an arms race in the Middle East.

Oh, and as far as the smearing goes, the Republicans are far worse at this. This is just a fact. The worst the left can be accused of, over the past quarter-century, is bowing to reality and fighting fire with fire.
__________________
Brendan
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-03-2008, 02:42 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,694
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Quote:
All that said, though, I am not completely convinced that a theocracy can be treated as a rational actor when it comes to nuclear weapons. I think Iran is not completely gone, but I am not absolutely sure that the ayatollahs care enough about this world. And even apart from doomsday concerns, I worry about the prospect of an arms race in the Middle East.
I don't know, Brendan. Why would you think Dick Cheney and George Bush are rational actors, or Ehud Olmert for that matter?

Cheney, Bush and Olmert all have nothing left to lose. Their approval ratings are deep in the toilet, and Olmert is likely to end up in prison.

Even if Olmert is out, he may be replaced by far-right warlord Benyamin Netanyahu, just as Bush may be replaced by Bomb-bomb-bomb Iran John McCain.

The set-up for a US or Israeli war of aggression on Iran (if Seymour Hersh is to be believed, the US is already at war with Iran) will be "Iran must be stopped before it becomes the first suicide bomber state."

Or, as Hersh suggests, Iran will simply be provoked into a reaction to US destablilization, and that will serve as a pretext for war.

I, like most human beings on Earth, do not feel threatened by Iran.

I, like most human beings on Earth, view GWB, Dick Cheney and John McCain as more dangerous to me and my descendants than the leadership of Iran.

I do not like the idea of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog. I am hopeful that Obama was not just bullshitting when he said he would sit down and negotiate with Ahmadinejad and the Iranians. Obama could bring us back from the brink, but it's far from a done deal. It won't be easy. The neo-cons have done enormous damage to the Middle East and to the prospects of world peace.
__________________
Seek Peace and Pursue it
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Busca la paz y síguela
--Psalm 34:15
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-03-2008, 03:18 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa®ah
Posts: 21,798
Default Re: Fireworks over Tehran

Wonderment:

Quote:
I don't know, Brendan. Why would you think Dick Cheney and George Bush are rational actors, or Ehud Olmert for that matter?
There's something to this, as there is to what you go on to say about Bush and Cheney being more dangerous than Iran's leaders, but I think you go too far. As much as I loathe Bush and Cheney, and as unbalanced a worldview as I think they have, and as little consideration as they give to the little guy, I do not think they are interested in starting a nuclear exchange. Or, if they are, they do not see a way to get away with it.

It's arguable that the damage they have wrought in Iraq and elsewhere adds up to the equivalent amount of devastation that would result from an atomic bomb or two, but I just don't see them as neglecting considerations of this world when they make their calculations, however bad they might otherwise be.

As I said, I do not completely view Iran's leaders this way, either. But my doubts are stronger about them. Maybe it's just the mewlings of an underdog who has no way to deal with the disparities in power apart from saying obnoxious things. Maybe what is preached on a daily basis is all empty rhetoric, purely intended to distract their people by focusing their hatred on Israel and the US. But there's a chance that it's not.

So, while I think that a nuclear-armed Iran could probably be dealt with safely, I think it's far more preferable to dissuade them from acquiring the weapons in the first place.
__________________
Brendan

Last edited by bjkeefe; 07-03-2008 at 03:28 AM..
Reply With Quote
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.