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  #1  
Old 04-17-2008, 02:59 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

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  #2  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:16 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Woohoo! Bob is back from Saudi Arabia. LOL @ Mickey's comment "the hostage tape edition."

Looking forward to this. Glad Mickey could bring himself to do a full 56 minutes! Double that man's pay! Heck, quadruple it! ;-)

Question: Will Mickey's treatment of Barack's "bitter" comment be any more honest than Pinkerton's?
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  #3  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Joel_Cairo Joel_Cairo is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Question: Will Mickey's treatment of Barack's "bitter" comment be any more honest than Pinkerton's?
Well, considering that ~5 minutes into the vlog, Mickey has fairly beamed with Schadenfreude at Obama, but been as charitable as humanly possible to Bill Kristol, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say No.
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  #4  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:56 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo View Post
Well, considering that ~5 minutes into the vlog, Mickey has fairly beamed with Schadenfreude at Obama, but been as charitable as humanly possible to Bill Kristol, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say No.
LOL, I think you're right.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 04-17-2008 at 04:23 PM..
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:28 PM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default Why he's bitter

Maybe if Bob paid Mickey for appearing on bloggingheads, he wouldn't cling to his anti-immigrant beliefs. Worth a try!
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:42 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Why he's bitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by otto View Post
Maybe if Bob paid Mickey for appearing on bloggingheads, he wouldn't cling to his anti-immigrant beliefs. Worth a try!
ROFL!

You're a Marxist! A crypto-Marxist! ;-)
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:20 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default What Barack Obama actually said about bitterness

As we start another thread on Barack Obama's unforgivable criminal statements about unhappy poor people, let's at least find room for, you know, his actual remarks.

"I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.

"Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

"But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes, you know, roll back the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American.

"But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
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  #8  
Old 04-18-2008, 02:45 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: What Barack Obama actually said about bitterness

Why even bother, TwinSwords?

From the debates on these forums and in the MSM, it's arguable whether people even care about what Obama actually said. The "discussion" has gone past the useful stage, to spin, counter-generalize, and wreck.

Valiant attempt!
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:40 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Why cling-gate is offensive

Bob wonders why the right-wing is dwelling so much on the dynamics of Obama's cling comment.

It might help if you put your own "fetish" (the security blankie you "cling" to) in the laundry list of Obama no-noes.

For example, I'm quite happy to put gun nuts and religious dogmatists in the clingy category because I'm anti-guns and an atheist. So I -- personally - am not offended by Obama's remarks.

But if Obama has said, "They're bitter and then they cling to pacifism and NGOs protesting every little human rights violation on the planet or pro-immigrant multiculuralism," then I would have been very pissed off because I'm a pacifist, multiculturalist and human rights activist.

I suppose in Bob's case Obama would have to say, "He's bitter and then clings to evolutionary psychology..." but you get the idea.
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:52 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Bob wonders why the right-wing is dwelling so much on the dynamics of Obama's cling comment.

It might help if you put your own "fetish" (the security blankie you "cling" to) in the laundry list of Obama no-noes.

For example, I'm quite happy to put gun nuts and religious dogmatists in the clingy category because I'm anti-guns and an atheist. So I -- personally - am not offended by Obama's remarks.

But if Obama has said, "They're bitter and then they cling to pacifism and NGOs protesting every little human rights violation on the planet or pro-immigrant multiculuralism," then I would have been very pissed off because I'm a pacifist, multiculturalist and human rights activist.

I suppose in Bob's case Obama would have to say, "He's bitter and then clings to evolutionary psychology..." but you get the idea.
Are you saying it's right for the American media to dwell on this for days, if not weeks?

Sure, Obama's comment might have offended some people. Does that provide the final proof conservatives have been looking for that Obama is a Marxist? Does it mean he's an elitist?

The conservatives are dwelling so much on Obama's cling comment because it profits them to do so. Sort of like Kerry's botched joke about the troops in Iraq. It might have been offensive to the few troops who heard it initially; the profit for Republicans was to make sure that every last service member heard it, heard it often, and heard it interpreted the way Sean Hannity wanted it interpreted. If it hurt the feelings of the troops, the Republicans wanted to make sure as many troops heard it as possible. And Kerry wasn't even running for anything at the time! They spread that distortion around just for the fun of (1) hurting Kerry, and (2) alienating the troops from the Democrats.

That's what they're doing with Obama's "bitter" comment: trying to make sure it offends as many people as possible by spinning it their way and make sure it reaches every home in America.
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:13 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Quote:
Are you saying it's right for the American media to dwell on this for days, if not weeks?
No! On the contrary. I view the obsession with the whole US electoral campaign as a very disturbing phenomenon. I won't even get into the psychopathology of that. Suffice to say, we are all avoiding some major world problems while deluding ourselves into thinking that by focusing on the campaign we are addressing them.

Quote:
Sure, Obama's comment might have offended some people. Does that provide the final proof conservatives have been looking for that Obama is a Marxist? Does it mean he's an elitist?
He's not a Marxist. That's as idiotic as calling George Bush a fascist or a Nazi.

Elitist is just a smear to that will play in middle America as "effete intellectual" and in some circles as "uppity Negro." Anybody who actually has a clue as to what Obama's main credential is -- organizing on the streets of Chicago -- will dismiss that charge as complete bullshit.

I agree with your analogy to Kerry's joke.

I think in the long run the Rev. Wright loop will hurt Obama the most. Forget Bittergate, forget Bill Ayers, forget Rezko.

Wright's sermon performance is the image that will be seared into the brain of every swing voter in the nation. Republican racists know that WillieHortonism works. THey will try to ride it all the way to the Oval Office.
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  #12  
Old 04-17-2008, 05:18 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Wouldn't it be more analogous to the remark of Senator McCain's "100 years in Iraq" which the left has used to cast the Senator as nothing but a warmonger; a talking point that seems to be fading quickly I might add just for the heck of it.
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  #13  
Old 04-18-2008, 02:46 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Point taken! Score!
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:53 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

P.S. I should add that I am a swing voter -- i.e., I swing from candidates to the left of the Dems (like Ralph Nader) to Dems., so it's perfectly plausible that a Clinton or Obama type moderate would explain my beliefs as "bitterness" and see me as "clinging" to my pet issues .
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:33 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Wonderment:

Your thoughts on why Obama's remarks might have been offensive were well-put. I liked your attempt to show what putting the shoe on another foot might feel like.

On the other hand, there is a non-stop drone from the right which does all of this and more. Think of how often and how freely "wine and cheese parties," "limousine liberals," "Birkenstocking-wearing hippies," "amoral secularists," and about 9000 others get tossed off. With, I might add at risk of stating the obvious, no one, but no one, in the MSM "examining" how this might be offensive. Cripes, it was like pulling teeth to get them to acknowledge that there might, just might, be some eensy-teensy thing wrong with saying people like me commit treason, hate American, and want the terrorists to win.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2008 at 04:39 PM..
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:44 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

I'll add that the longer "Bittergate" gets obsessed over, the more I find it amazing that so many rich and upper middle class people apparently worry so much about the feelings of poor people in decaying small towns, but never seem to give a crap about the feelings of poor people in decaying inner cities.

Yeah, yeah. I know. The former's votes are potentially up for grabs more so than the latter group. But really. Stop the faux-righteous indignation already.

I should say that I don't mean just Mickey in this regard. I think it applies to just about every diavlogger this past week.
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  #17  
Old 04-18-2008, 03:05 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Quote:
Think of how often and how freely "wine and cheese parties," "limousine liberals," "Birkenstocking-wearing hippies," "amoral secularists," and about 9000 others get tossed off. With, I might add at risk of stating the obvious, no one, but no one, in the MSM "examining" how this might be offensive.
Quote:
I'll add that the longer "Bittergate" gets obsessed over, the more I find it amazing that so many rich and upper middle class people apparently worry so much about the feelings of poor people in decaying small towns, but never seem to give a crap about the feelings of poor people in decaying inner cities.
Of course, I'm naive, but you hint at one of four responses I'm just not hearing (now, or about McCain). Overall, I'm sorta pleased American journalism and some laypeople have discovered epistemology. I'm pleased that laypeople and the elitist pundits can both talk about Marxism without red-baiting. It's taken long enough for leftie academics to get their research into the MSM, and now college grads can share their yawns with our families. "Listen, Mom, I read The Communist Manifesto and The German Ideology, and we covered this one week!" I'm also glad we could learn about African-American churches, but still we can't talk about Malcolm X (the "chickens" quote is still toxic after 40 years, and is covering the field from assassinations and elections) and his discussions with MLK. But, we can't talk about Muslim nationalism in the African-American community head-on. Next, I want to have a national chat about my father's messianic Judaism and gambling and African-American tribal members on Native American reservations. We have time yet, don't we?

1. rationalism: innate truths
2. empiricism: somewhere right now some Poli Sci prof is crunching numbers, and in 2010, we can invite him on bhTV (when Bob/Mickey read the APSA publications for talent). Really, though, I see no great demand for homemade polling.
3. constructivism: I have a soft spot for this, but after these incidents, I realize talking and reaching consensus is un-American (I need to do polling).
4. skepticism: leads to elitism.

By all means, though, let's just trade generalizations and admire spin!

Last edited by Baltimoron; 04-18-2008 at 08:34 AM..
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  #18  
Old 04-18-2008, 03:12 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Baltimoron:

Quote:
Of course, I'm naive, but you hint at one of three responses I'm just not hearing (now, or about McCain).
Sorry. Don't understand what you're saying.
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  #19  
Old 04-18-2008, 03:22 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Twice Is the Charm

Quoted post edited now (twice) with the passages of yours that inspired me to rant and my faulty enumeration rectified.

Last edited by Baltimoron; 04-18-2008 at 08:36 AM..
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  #20  
Old 04-18-2008, 04:34 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Baltimoron:

Sorry. I still don't understand what you're trying to say, even with the added quotes. What is the "one of three responses" that I hinted at? What are the other two?
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  #21  
Old 04-19-2008, 08:07 AM
johnmarzan johnmarzan is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

mickey was a little mean to bob, from the tone of his voice in the podcast.

as for bob, i hear that he plans to introduce saudi bloggers to BHTV. would be interesting to find out what they are allowed and not allowed to blog about in saudi arabia.
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  #22  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:00 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

I'm excited about the new Saudi blood, too. I just hope they aren't aping MSM talking points.
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2008, 05:26 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Why cling-gate is offensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Bob wonders why the right-wing is dwelling so much on the dynamics of Obama's cling comment.
You don't have to wonder much about why right-wingers are dwelling. This Johathan Chait article gives you a flavor of the hypocrisy of one set of elites howling in outrage another another set of elites.

I can't help but steal a quote.

Quote:
"The victim-hero class is the object of competitive flattery and the subject of mutual accusations of disrespect. You can't read a Peggy Noonan paean to real America--"a healthy and vibrant place full of religious feeling and cultural energy and Bible study and garage bands and sports-love and mom-love and sophistication and normality"--without thinking of a junior faculty member extolling the dignity of Guatemalan peasant women. Bill O'Reilly's or Tim Russert's endless invocations of their working-class backgrounds are the equivalent of the campus activist who introduces every opinion by saying "As a woman of color . . . ." (The one difference being that the latter really is a woman of color, while the former are multimillionaires who retain only the most remote connection to blue-collar life.)"
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:46 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default "Stephen Kaus is a high-minded trust-fund millionare"

Gosh, according to Jim Pinkerton, Mickey's brother Steve is a trust fund baby who holds high-minded Mother Jones-type views.

Yeah. The highly successful lawyer and law prof is just a dumb trust fund baby. This illustrates the degree to which Pinkerton is connected to reality.
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Joel_Cairo Joel_Cairo is offline
 
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Default Are bloggingheads just as out-of-touch as an MSM talkingheads?

Oh Noes!

Looks like Bob just made the now infamous "Charlie Gibson Income Attribution Error."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Media Matters
moderator Charlie Gibson suggested that the Democratic presidential candidates' proposals to roll back or let some of President Bush's tax cuts expire would affect middle-class families, adding, "If you take a family of two professors here at St. Anselm, they're going to be in the $200,000 category that you're talking about lifting the taxes on." According to the U.S. Census, however, the median income for a U.S. household is $48,451, and the mean household income is $65,527; and only 3.4 percent of U.S. households have an income of $200,000 or more.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200801060004
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Last edited by Joel_Cairo; 04-17-2008 at 04:40 PM..
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:10 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

I will never understand why Mickey claims that he's going to, or did, vote for a candidate, and then spends all of his energy working against that candidate. It's mildly nice to hear that he plans to vote for Obama, but he outweighs whatever contribution that might make a thousand-fold with his words.

I'm not sure if the claim about voting is supposed to make him seem more "reasonable" or if he suffers from a particularly acute form of buyer's remorse or what, but it it's dissonant at best.

On the Saudi efforts to get a high-tech culture going, I wish them all the best. I think it would be good for them, since the oil isn't going to last forever, and I think it would be good for the world, if more rational thinking can help balance their religious fundamentalists. I think the more likely scenario, though, is that they'll go down a path similar to what we see in the US -- there will be a divide between those who like the new ideas and those who fear them.

The thought of the Empty Quarter being filled with solar panels is pretty intriguing, though.
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:15 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
It's mildly nice to hear that he plans to vote for Obama,
Bradley effect.
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:22 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Heh. No, in Mickey's case, I don't agree. I think he can be as clueless about racial issues as any white kid straight out of Beverly Hills, but I don't think he's racist.

I also don't think he's the sort that would hesitate to say that he doesn't plan to vote for Obama out of worry about what people might read into that. It sure hasn't stopped him from rattling off every reason he can think of to dislike Obama, including some that border on race-based motivations, that's for sure.
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2008, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Heh. No, in Mickey's case, I don't agree. I think he can be as clueless about racial issues as any white kid straight out of Beverly Hills, but I don't think he's racist.

I also don't think he's the sort that would hesitate to say that he doesn't plan to vote for Obama out of worry about what people might read into that. It sure hasn't stopped him from rattling off every reason he can think of to dislike Obama, including some that border on race-based motivations, that's for sure.
I agree. Mickey has been unfailingly forthright in his views, all the way down to his opinion of our merry little band. And Mickey, Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is not a twit, but a knowledgeable and well-mannered poster.
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:27 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by otto
Maybe if Bob paid Mickey for appearing on bloggingheads, he wouldn't cling to his anti-immigrant beliefs. Worth a try!

Awesome! Once again someone who doesn't understand the difference between legal and illegal. Mickey, they'll never learn (or maybe it's just a weak smear attempt).
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  #31  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:39 PM
ohcomeon ohcomeon is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

I sincerely hope Mickey will give us the definition of the word twit as he means it. I really enjoy reading Abu Noor Al-Irlandee's comments.
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:05 PM
Sgt Schultz Sgt Schultz is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Can you nerds laugh at yourselves?
http://tinyurl.com/5rwvmb
I know I can laugh at you.
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  #33  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:11 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: We Take Our Marxism Vulgar

Imagine that. A conservative asking if others can laugh at themselves.

Guess I need to go buy a new irony meter.
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  #34  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:44 PM
Jack McCullough Jack McCullough is offline
 
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Default Mickey lets us down!

We generally look to Mickey as the pop culture guru of BHTV, but I'm afraid he's missed the mark this time. Does he really think there are a lot of yuppie boho professors who are going to be dissuaded from moving to Saudi Arabia because they won't be able to see a Britney Spears concert? That seems laughably unlikely to me, unless the demographic of the professoriat has been expanded to include lots of eleven-year-old girls in the decades since I graduate from university and law school.

Still, overall a great diavlog.
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  #35  
Old 04-18-2008, 02:10 AM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Kaussian Blur Filter

I've begun applying my Kaussian Blur Filter to all these guys' conversations. I simply unplug my right speaker and enjoy a refreshingly erudite Bob Wright monovlog. It's safe and effective every time!
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  #36  
Old 04-18-2008, 02:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Kaussian Blur Filter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post
I've begun applying my Kaussian Blur Filter to all these guys' conversations. I simply unplug my right speaker and enjoy a refreshingly erudite Bob Wright monovlog. It's safe and effective every time!
That's not a blur filter. That's a freakuency cutoff filter.
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  #37  
Old 04-18-2008, 01:20 PM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Mickey lets us down!

Quote:
We generally look to Mickey as the pop culture guru of BHTV, but I'm afraid he's missed the mark this time. Does he really think there are a lot of yuppie boho professors who are going to be dissuaded from moving to Saudi Arabia because they won't be able to see a Britney Spears concert? That seems laughably unlikely to me, unless the demographic of the professoriat has been expanded to include lots of eleven-year-old girls in the decades since I graduate from university and law school.

I think Mickey's using "Britney Spears concert" as a euphemism for something else that young professors would miss if they moved to Saudi Arabia. I'm sure living in Saudi Arabia for an extended period would be an interesting cultural experience, but I'm thinking that most red-blooded Western men would probably prefer to live in a society where women wore a little less clothing and seemed a little more available.

Last edited by Thus Spoke Elvis; 04-18-2008 at 01:59 PM..
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  #38  
Old 04-21-2008, 05:01 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default Re: Mickey lets us down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thus Spoke Elvis View Post
I think Mickey's using "Britney Spears concert" as a euphemism for something else that young professors would miss if they moved to Saudi Arabia. I'm sure living in Saudi Arabia for an extended period would be an interesting cultural experience, but I'm thinking that most red-blooded Western men would probably prefer to live in a society where women wore a little less clothing and seemed a little more available.
Well, professionals of any stripe like money so I feel that they will not suffer for talent. Besides with lots of money there are plenty of ways to quench one's thirst in that arena. Just follow all of the petroleum engineers and western middle-men that have been around for years to whatever sinful oasis is available.:-)
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  #39  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:11 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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I think he can be as clueless about racial issues as any white kid straight out of Beverly Hills, but I don't think he's racist.
Well, I can only tell you that our family has been offended by his remarks, which we perceive as anti-Mexican bigotry.

I think if you polled the Mexican-American community after showing respondents a sampling of Kausisms, you'd get about 9 out of 10 people seeing them as racist.

I also think there's a syndrome of emergent racism among nativists. They often begin only by arguing in favor of Culture A's interests and the value of assimilation (English only, no bilingual education, etc.) , but they have nowhere to go except to disparage Culture B.

They may not start out as xenophobes, but that's where being a perpetual immigrant-basher takes you. You begin to see the immigrant culture (predominantly Mexican in Southern California) as the enemy.

Some people may be able to walk this tightrope of loving the Mexican but hating the sin of "illegal" immigration, but Mickey ain't one of them.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:12 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Sorry, Wonderment. You're right. I was thinking only in terms of Mickey's view of black people, not brown people.
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