An Important Note to Our Valued Commenters from Bob

[Robert Wright]

There's been some anticipatory anguish about our pending move from vBulletin to Disqus.

Let me reiterate that we're making this change reluctantly but for various well-considered reasons, chief among them the cost and hassle of keeping vBulletin linked to our diavlog pages so that comments appear under the video player. (Also, even after the cost and hassle, the comments appear there in strict chronological order, making the conversational flow hard to follow.) And we think it’s very important that the comments do appear on the diavlog pages. We're going to need your help to keep the conversations going there, so even if you have doubts about Disqus, I hope for the sake of Bloggingheads that you'll try to make it work.

By popular demand, we’re going to experiment with keeping the vBulletin forum open for those of you who want to keep using the platform to talk about non-diavlog-related stuff. But please, please, please don't use vBulletin threads to comment on the diavlogs. That would draw your energy away from the diavlog pages just when we need you to help us keep those pages smart and vibrant. The Disqus platform, being more accessible than vBulletin, will probably bring more newcomers, so we want you to be there setting an example, helping to sustain the spirit of constructive contention that you’ve built here.

Thanks,
Bob

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Robert Wright

We're going to need your help to keep the conversations going there, so even if you have doubts about Disqus, I hope for the sake of Bloggingheads that you'll try to make it work.

It's hard to start Discus commenting on threads which are already in progress due to lack of context. I'm sure people will get in the swing when they don't have the alternative venue. BTW, for the longest time I always viewed comments in the chronological order in which they appeared under the diavlog. As long as the commenter gives some context by quoting the person he is replying to, it works just fine.

simple minds.

[JonIrenicus]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

It's hard to start Discus commenting on threads which are already in progress due to lack of context. I'm sure people will get in the swing when they don't have the alternative venue. BTW, for the longest time I always viewed comments in the chronological order in which they appeared under the diavlog. As long as the commenter gives some context by quoting the person he is replying to, it works just fine.

simple minds.

The biggest headache/nightmare of Disqus occurs on large tech blog sites like engadget. Those articles often generate thousands of comments, and disqus 50 at a time thread page limitation along with its limited thread representation make it impossible or irritating to follow. I have often made some point only to have someone argue against it in such an idiotic way that I am compelled to respond. When the threads get very large that could often mean clicking through page after page to get to the one where my comment might be on, resorting to ctrl f to find my name in the hopes that I don't get too annoyed by the process to call off the entire thing.


That said, I don't expect multi thousand posts for bloggingheads, so that should not ever get that bad.


This should be an interesting experiment though. I wonder if comments will increase or decrease with the new system. The only direct comparison I can think of is the Harry McCraken + Farhad Manjoo pairings.

I believe their first pairing was under the standard forum commenting bloggingheads has. The following ones were under techheads with disqus. There should be a direct comparison in terms of numbers of comments with the same paring for more like/like comparisons.

We'll see if the larger ease of access to make comments that disqus brings outweighs the turnoff of an inferior commenting platform with its limited thread support. Can you imagine the shape of those old lyle bjkeefe responses now? no more diagonal, threads, only long, steep drops into the abyss...

[Ocean]

I would imagine that the decision to transition to a rudimentary comment system like disqus must have been very well researched by the BhTV staff since they have gone ahead with it despite our repeated complaints. So, I also will have to assume that their comment section will be soon filled with many new commentors, in lengthy threads. Dropping a few of the old commentors who are not motivated to switch shouldn't be a big deal and a calculated risk.

In brief, no one will miss us. And it's okay with us too.

[graz]

Originally Posted by Ocean

I would imagine that the decision to transition to a rudimentary comment system like disqus must have been very well researched by the BhTV staff since they have gone ahead with it despite our repeated complaints. So, I also will have to assume that their comment section will be soon filled with many new commentors, in lengthy threads. Dropping a few of the old commentors who are not motivated to switch shouldn't be a big deal and a calculated risk.

In brief, no one will miss us. And it's okay with us too.

I miss you already. And you're not even gone yet.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by graz

I miss you already. And you're not even gone yet.

Yes, me too. And going like that without a party...

Ahhhh...., let's go for a drink!



Sheesh, this reminds me how much more difficult it is to paste these smilies and emoticons in disqus!

[handle]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Yes, me too. And going like that without a party...

Ahhhh...., let's go for a drink!



Sheesh, this reminds me how much more difficult it is to paste these smilies and emoticons in disqus!

I'll raise a glass to that!
Clink!

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Ocean

I would imagine that the decision to transition to a rudimentary comment system like disqus must have been very well researched by the BhTV staff since they have gone ahead with it despite our repeated complaints. So, I also will have to assume that their comment section will be soon filled with many new commentors, in lengthy threads. Dropping a few of the old commentors who are not motivated to switch shouldn't be a big deal and a calculated risk.

In brief, no one will miss us. And it's okay with us too.

Tu me manqueras, eau profonde!

I am tempted to jump ship too. What is the point of the "like" button?

In memoriam (from Apollinaire):

Mon beau navire, ô ma mémoire (memory of past exchanges with commenters)
Avons-nous assez navigué (have we navigated enough threads)
Dans une onde mauvaise à boire? (often unpalatable)
Avons-nous assez divagué (often rambling)
De la belle aube au triste soir? (from glorious dawn to sad evening)

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by Florian

I am tempted to jump ship too. What is the point of the "like" button?

It is obviously so that you can express your admiration for such luminaries as myself, sugarkang, or badhat.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by miceelf

It is obviously so that you can express your admiration for such luminaries as myself, sugarkang, or badhat.

So the person who gets the most votes of approval is right?

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by Florian

So the person who gets the most votes of approval is right?

What an odd conclusion. It's simply a way of expressing onesself. The person who gets the most votes of approval is the most popular. That matters to some people, apparently.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by miceelf

What an odd conclusion. It's simply a way of expressing onesself. The person who gets the most votes of approval is the most popular. That matters to some people, apparently.

Think of it as a means of getting a sense of the "room," as it were. Something which might useful in some circumstances, and a distraction in others.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by miceelf

What an odd conclusion. It's simply a way of expressing onesself. The person who gets the most votes of approval is the most popular. That matters to some people, apparently.

You are taking me too seriously. But I have to admit that I would never say that I liked a post unless I agreed with the ideas expressed or implied in it. So in that sense, a vote of approval from me would mean something like: how true, or how right you are.

Most popular.....amusing americanism.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by miceelf

What an odd conclusion. It's simply a way of expressing onesself. The person who gets the most votes of approval is the most popular. That matters to some people, apparently.

I was wondering if it had anything to do with facebook likes but apparently not. I think I kinda hate the new forum. This one seems so cozy and lived in and going away!

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by Florian

Tu me manqueras, eau profonde!

Thanks, Florian.

I am tempted to jump ship too. What is the point of the "like" button?

Iin the era of electronic communication, it's the lazy person's way of indicating approval of a comment. It may imply: agree, like, LOL, correct, whathaveyou.

In memoriam (from Apollinaire):

Mon beau navire, ô ma mémoire (memory of past exchanges with commenters)
Avons-nous assez navigué (have we navigated enough threads)
Dans une onde mauvaise à boire? (often unpalatable)
Avons-nous assez divagué (often rambling)
De la belle aube au triste soir? (from glorious dawn to sad evening)

Nice. I could have used the "like" button if I had one!

[jimM47]

Originally Posted by Florian

What is the point of the "like" button?

It appears that Disqus makes it pretty easy to follow particular commenters (something I am already wont to do) and the "like" button has the effect of reposting the comment in question to all the people who are following you.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

We'll see if the larger ease of access to make comments that disqus brings outweighs the turnoff of an inferior commenting platform with its limited thread support. Can you imagine the shape of those old lyle bjkeefe respones now? no more diagonal, threads, only long, steep drops into the abyss...

I have so much respect for you that I looked up the meaning of "respone' to improve my vocabulary only to find it was a typo.

Lyle and bjkeefe...seems like an eternity ago.

[JonIrenicus]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

I have so much respect for you that I looked up the meaning of "respone' to improve my vocabulary only to find it was a typo.

Lyle and bjkeefe...seems like an eternity ago.

FIXED!

I am still adjusting to my new laptops keyboard, that is my excuse..

[Unit]

I always thought that vBulletin was genius and truly unique in the blogosphere. It's a pity if it will simply be tossed out.

PS: My kids will also miss the little TVs with legs.

[Unit]

After checking out Disqus I'm sorry to say but I won't be joining you on the new forum. It's been fun, and I thank everyone who's ever interacted with me.

So long everyone.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Unit

After checking out Disqus I'm sorry to say but I won't be joining you on the new forum. It's been fun, and I thank everyone who's ever interacted with me.

So long everyone.

It's a real disaster, isn't it?

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

It's a real disaster, isn't it?

Yes, total, and irreversible.

But I just posted a comment in that open thread. It's the beginning of a mutiny of sorts. Although civilized enough to give notice and leave it as an invitation to rescue our community.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Yes, total, and irreversible.

But I just posted a comment in that open thread. It's the beginning of a mutiny of sorts. Although civilized enough to give notice and leave it as an invitation to rescue our community.

community? hmmm.

This is like wandering around in an abandoned building and thinking you can set up housekeeping. Some day the bulldozers are going to come.

If you want to rescue your community start collecting email addresses.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

community? hmmm.

This is like wandering around in an abandoned building and thinking you can set up housekeeping. Some day the bulldozers are going to come.

If you want to rescue your community start collecting email addresses.

Sad, but possibly true. It does feel like the mall after everyone went home. Or that Twilight Zone episode about the only guy left alive in his town.

And it came so suddenly. Somehow I didn't really believe it was going to happen. Denial, I guess.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Sad, but possibly true. It does feel like the mall after everyone went home. Or that Twilight Zone episode about the only guy left alive in his town.

And it came so suddenly. Somehow I didn't really believe it was going to happen. Denial, I guess.

Hopefully you'll be feeling the same way in November.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Hopefully you'll be feeling the same way in November.

LOL!

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Yes, total, and irreversible.

But I just posted a comment in that open thread. It's the beginning of a mutiny of sorts. Although civilized enough to give notice and leave it as an invitation to rescue our community.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

I actually felt quite encouraged by this note that Bob left:

PS [added noon Friday EST] I should add that it's not even possible to switch back to the old comment system in the short run. The redesigned site is on a different content management system than the old one, so to make vBulletin comments appear on the video pages we'd have to pay for some customized software development that would take awhile.

The text in bold (my emphasis) sounds to me like he's leaving the door open for the possibility of a reintroduction of vBulletin.

[Florian]

Originally Posted by Unit

After checking out Disqus I'm sorry to say but I won't be joining you on the new forum. It's been fun, and I thank everyone who's ever interacted with me.

So long everyone.

Sorry to see you go, unit. I agree, Disqus is a very inferior substitute for vBulletin and the bhtv forum.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Unit

I always thought that vBulletin was genius and truly unique in the blogosphere. It's a pity if it will simply be tossed out.

PS: My kids will also miss the little TVs with legs.

I just came upon vBulletin on another blog and it felt like I was home! So it's just too expensive and complex, eh?

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

I just came upon it on another blog and it felt like I was home! So it's just too expensive and complex, eh?

I can't say with certainty, but my understanding is that once you buy the license (as BhTV has already done) you can keep using it without further cost forever.* Bob did mention that there is cost to rewire vBulletin to the comments each time there's a redesign. And I suspect the reason they abandoned vBulletin this time was because BhTV was in financial dire straights at the end of 2011, and there simply wasn't money to do the work. Consequently, they turned to the free and easy to use Disqus -- just so they could continue providing something.

Of course, I might be wrong. But this is my best guess based on what Bob told us in his last Commenter Klatch and the other comments he has posted.

If I'm right - that the decision was made out of financial necessity - there may be hope that Bob will relaunch vBulletin later.

*Unless you want to upgrade to a new version later. But this version would suffice for quite a while, so that is not a factor.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

I can't say with certainty, but my understanding is that once you buy the license (as BhTV has already done) you can keep using it without further cost forever.* Bob did mention that there is cost to rewire vBulletin to the comments each time there's a redesign. And I suspect the reason they abandoned vBulletin this time was because BhTV was in financial dire straights at the end of 2011, and there simply wasn't money to do the work. Consequently, they turned to the free and easy to use Disqus -- just so they could continue providing something.

Of course, I might be wrong. But this is my best guess based on what Bob told us in his last Commenter Klatch and the other comments he has posted.

If I'm right - that the decision was made out of financial necessity - there may be hope that Bob will relaunch vBulletin later.

*Unless you want to upgrade to a new version later. But this version would suffice for quite a while, so that is not a factor.

Well, I must admit I skipped the tortured diavlogs where Bob explained the ins and outs of bhtv's troubles but it seems that since he is such a skilled writer he could have/ should have spelled it out clearly.

Since popularity seems to have such value in the blogosphere it seems a shame that the solid group which has collected here would be squandered. Getting known is half the battle. I guess the other half is figuring out how to pay the bills.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by badhatharry

Well, I must admit I skipped the tortured diavlogs where Bob explained the ins and outs of bhtv's troubles but it seems that since he is such a skilled writer he could have/ should have spelled it out clearly.

Since popularity seems to have such value in the blogosphere it seems a shame that the solid group which has collected here would be squandered. Getting known is half the battle. I guess the other half is figuring out how to pay the bills.

I really do think Bob did what he had to do (implementing Disqus), rather than what he wanted to do. And given the dire turn, he seems to sincerely be trying to preserve the community and encourage us to adapt to the new platform. And I think pretty quickly he will come to accept that it just isn't going to be possible. There's no way Disqus will ever be able to be a substitute for what we have (or had) here. It really is an unmitigated disaster over there. There's no way to see all the active discussions at once, it takes several clicks to jump between threads, and you don't even know if there will be any new comments until you get there. And FINDING the new comments is pure torture -- you literally have to scroll up and down the whole thread eyeballing each post to see if it's new.

People just won't do it.

There's a reason why the discussion on other Disqus threads is almost entirely superficial and shallow: Disqus cannot support what Bob provided us with here, when he gave us vBulletin.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Bob will hear us out and, if it's at all possible, restore vBulletin. It might take a while, per his comment yesterday, but he's obviously concerned about the transition to Disqus and interested in how it's being received.

I have to say: The rest of the redesign is quite nice. It's been lost in all the commotion about vBulletin, but I think the other changes they made are quite good!

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

I really do think Bob did what he had to do (implementing Disqus), rather than what he wanted to do. And given the dire turn, he seems to sincerely be trying to preserve the community and encourage us to adapt to the new platform. And I think pretty quickly he will come to accept that it just isn't going to be possible. There's no way Disqus will ever be able to be a substitute for what we have (or had) here. It really is an unmitigated disaster over there. There's no way to see all the active discussions at once, it takes several clicks to jump between threads, and you don't even know if there will be any new comments until you get there. And FINDING the new comments is pure torture -- you literally have to scroll up and down the whole thread eyeballing each post to see if it's new.

People just won't do it.

There's a reason why the discussion on other Disqus threads is almost entirely superficial and shallow: Disqus cannot support what Bob provided us with here, when he gave us vBulletin.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Bob will hear us out and, if it's at all possible, restore vBulletin. It might take a while, per his comment yesterday, but he's obviously concerned about the transition to Disqus and interested in how it's being received.

I have to say: The rest of the redesign is quite nice. It's been lost in all the commotion about vBulletin, but I think the other changes they made are quite good!

Anyone who has ever used Disqus, and was familiar with the way our discussions here took shape could have foreseen that these two formats aren't interchangeable. So, it's not about adjusting. It's an entire new game, and an extremely tiring and unappealing one.

People who mostly enjoyed watching the diavlogs and those who would only comment briefly on occasion will adjust to the new format without a problem. For that kind of use, the difference is minimal.

But for those of us who saw the diavlogs as a point of departure for a far more interesting adventure, that of exchanging ideas with others, it's the end. It doesn't matter whether we used the forum to agree, disagree, expand, learn or "teach", the possibility of exchanging ideas was there. Not the case with Disqus.

[TwinSwords]

Originally Posted by Ocean

Anyone who has ever used Disqus, and was familiar with the way our discussions here took shape could have foreseen that these two formats aren't interchangeable.

Right.

I seem to recall Bob having mentioned in a couple of diavlogs that he almost never came into the forum, that he only ever really kept up with the comments as they appeared in the linear view under the video. I suspect the same is true of the rest of the BhTV staff who were involved in the decision. (Which, I should say, I believe was driven mainly out of financial need; they simply didn't have the cash, I think, to pay for the work of wiring vBulletin up to the new design, so they had to go with something cheap and free. You know what they say about getting what you pay for.)

But, to your point: I think they're having trouble understanding the difficulty of the transition simply because they never were really that familiar with "the way our discussions here took shape."

Originally Posted by Ocean

People who mostly enjoyed watching the diavlogs and those who would only comment briefly on occasion will adjust to the new format without a problem. For that kind of use, the difference is minimal.

Yes. BhTV's comment threads will now reduced to the same kind of superficiality and lack of substance that abounds elsewhere on the internet. It will truly be painful to watch. Unless they change course.

Originally Posted by Ocean

But for those of us who saw the diavlogs as a point of departure for a far more interesting adventure, that of exchanging ideas with others, it's the end. It doesn't matter whether we used the forum to agree, disagree, expand, learn or "teach", the possibility of exchanging ideas was there. Not the case with Disqus.

Yes, that's exactly right.

I've told you my theory: they just didn't have the money they would have needed to keep vBulletin. That's the kind of problem that can be fixed with time, and if Bob is truly as open minded and considerate of his audience as I think he is, I think there's a good chance vBulletin might come back. Part of me worries, though, that they might have had other reasons for wanting to ditch the forum. Maybe there was too much free speech, here. Too much robust exchange of intellectual energy. Bob really made the commenters into stars with vBulletin, giving them a chance to show off their brilliance and inform us with their knowledge. We are all so much poorer, now, having lost it all.

Remember what Glenn Loury said in his last diavlog with John McWhorter? He raved about the intellectual caliber of the commenters here. I'll bet he won't be saying that after six months of Disqus.

[Ocean]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Yes. BhTV's comment threads will now reduced to the same kind of superficiality and lack of substance that abounds elsewhere on the internet. It will truly be painful to watch. Unless they change course.

And to be even more blunt, there are lots of places on the internet where there is interesting material presented, talks, articles and the like. But most of us don't necessarily keep going back there because the comment section is completely unappealing. So, in a way, it is the combination of interesting material (diavlogs) presented here and the versatility of the comment section and forum that made this website unique. With an impoverished content (no regular science feature, for example), and a disgraceful comment section, well, not much to look forward to.

[Brenda]

Originally Posted by TwinSwords

Bob did mention that there is cost to rewire vBulletin to the comments each time there's a redesign.

You're right that this was the key reason for the switch. And it's not just the money. We never found a really good programmer to maintain the custom "bridge" between vBulletin and the videopage, so we were severely restricted in our ability to stay current on upgrades to both the website's content management system and vBulletin itself. And that led to security problems, and usability problems, and ... well, it just got untenable in the end.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Brenda

You're right that this was the key reason for the switch. And it's not just the money. We never found a really good programmer to maintain the custom "bridge" between vBulletin and the videopage, so we were severely restricted in our ability to stay current on upgrades to both the website's content management system and vBulletin itself. And that led to security problems, and usability problems, and ... well, it just got untenable in the end.

Thanks for that, Brenda.

[Brenda]

You're welcome. Hope I'll continue to see you in Disqus.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by Brenda

You're welcome. Hope I'll continue to see you in Disqus.

Thanks. I do love it here, which may be just a symtom of my obsessive personality. However I have a glitch to clear up if I can. When I was signing up for disqus, somehow it gave me a screen name I did not specifically request. I hate to see badhatharry die but on the other hand she does carry a lot of baggage.

[Brenda]

I don't have any insider knowledge on how to fix your Disqus handle, but maybe other commenters could help. More likely in Disqus!