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  #1  
Old 11-02-2008, 04:07 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Conservative Civil War

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  #2  
Old 11-02-2008, 04:30 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

I want blood! Have at it guys!
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:36 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Is anybody on the Right taken aback by how much power Rush Limbaugh in fact wields within the movement? Rush seems to rely less on logic and more on infantile games (making fun of people's names, for instance), bluster, innuendo, and flat out lying. Rush never participates in fora where he (or close allies) don't get to make the rules, never participates in debates with people with whom he has more than marginal disagreements - generally never puts his ideas to the test in settings that aren't stacked in his favor. To me this isn't evidence that he's a guy who ought to be taken seriously, not on an intellectual level, certainly. Yet, even guys like Ross seem not to want to do more than just imply that maybe he gets some of his arguments wrong. Never mind that they're arguments about fundamentally important things, or that all he seems to do is demagogue (can that be a verb?) those issues. Nobody on the right really seem willing to take him on a serious way.
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2008, 09:42 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Is anybody on the Right taken aback by how much power Rush Limbaugh in fact wields within the movement?
I agree with all you go on to say about Rush and why he should not be given so much attention by the Right's intelligentsia, but there's no getting around the reality that he commands an enormous audience who take his words as gospel. So, his arguments have to be taken into account if you're on the Right and you would rather not have your side split into two camps.
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:10 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War (PS)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I agree with all you go on to say about Rush and why he should not be given so much attention by the Right's intelligentsia, but there's no getting around the reality that he commands an enormous audience who take his words as gospel. So, his arguments have to be taken into account if you're on the Right and you would rather not have your side split into two camps.
Or, at least Rush has to be genuflected to every time something like "where the conservative movement should go from here" gets debated. His brand just has too much loyalty among the populace. It's analogous to the way that Democrats always (feel they) have to go through the ritual of uttering the "we honer John McCain's service" shibboleth before they criticize him.
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:44 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War (PS)

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Or, at least Rush has to be genuflected to every time something like "where the conservative movement should go from here" gets debated. His brand just has too much loyalty among the populace. It's analogous to the way that Democrats always (feel they) have to go through the ritual of uttering the "we honer John McCain's service" shibboleth before they criticize him.
You're making some good points. I think there's some truth to the idea that some people really don't want to take Tush on, on the merits. It's just not a winning strategy. Having said that, I glad to see Ross bring up his set of objections.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2008, 12:09 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War (PS)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
You're making some good points. I think there's some truth to the idea that some people really don't want to take Tush on, on the merits. It's just not a winning strategy. Having said that, I glad to see Ross bring up his set of objections.
I share your happiness, or at least part of me does, when thinking in terms of the long-term health of the nation being aided by a robust check on liberalism spinning out of control.

On the other hand, I want to see a real split between smart conservative thought and the kind of mindless bloviation that Rush represents, so that the latter can be marginalized. I think that this would also be good for the long-term health of the nation.

And, as long as the US remains as powerful as it is, "nation" in both of the above instances could be replaced by "world."
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  #8  
Old 11-03-2008, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Rush's influence is overstated by himself, his followers, and his detractors.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2008, 08:28 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
Rush's influence is overstated by himself, his followers, and his detractors.
Heh. Nice.

Strictly speaking, I agree. But that doesn't mean he still doesn't have a lot.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

I don't think either of these guys really understands the degree to which Palin is unpopular outside of the Republican base. She is really, really disliked among independents and moderates. A Republican can't win the Presidency and alienate moderate independents and Reagan Democrats. She's killing the McCain campaign among, for example, upper middle class families in the Philadelphia suburbs, and elderly Jewish moderates in Florida, etc. That's going to be just as big of a problem for her as a Presidential candidate.
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  #11  
Old 11-02-2008, 05:39 PM
jwpfender jwpfender is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

I take the point you are both making that the vice-presidency should not have the authority to deliver corporal punishment.

But: I think the strength of Obama's appeal in this regard (or conversely, McCain's lack of appeal) is that Obama does listen to other points of view and would amend his views based on the considered input of advisers, including the vice-president. The notion that America should have an infallible president (or more to the point, that America is itself infallible) is coming out of the wrong century, guys, and it's at the heart of this conservative breakdown.
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  #12  
Old 11-02-2008, 09:37 PM
threep threep is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Yeeeeaaaah. Toppling the Chinese government in the name of freedom is a fantastically foolish thing to say.
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  #13  
Old 11-02-2008, 09:44 PM
Whatfur
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Take a bow gentlemen.
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  #14  
Old 11-02-2008, 09:47 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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Originally Posted by Whatfur View Post
Nice catch.
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  #15  
Old 11-02-2008, 10:10 PM
thprop thprop is offline
 
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Angry Inflation of the Vice Presidential Role?!?!?!?!

What a couple of morons! For some reason I watched this - I dislike Ross more than Jonah. Ross is an idiot catholic (and as someone who had 12 years of catholic school - I mean that in the worse sense). He actually believes that tripe the child molesters based in Rome toss out there and bases his entire worldview on this idiocy. Click those heels for the former Hitler jugend - Heil Ratzinger!

The vice presidential role is inflated when the presidential candidate is a 72 year old cancer survivor. Sarah Palin is a dolt who is eagerly awaiting End Times, speaks in tongues and wants to cast out witches. She is anti-intellectual and anti-science like most evangelicals. She gives a speech about the need to devote more resources (in a frozen budget) to special needs kids while in the same speech criticizing fruit fly research. I guess she did not notice or no one told her that some of the most important work on autism is done using fruit flies.

As Richard Wolffe of Newsweek said of this display of keen insight:
I'm going to be as restrained and measured as I possibly can about this. But this is the most mindless, ignorant, uninformed comment that we have seen from Governor Palin so far, and there's been a lot of competition for that prize.

PZ Myers of Pharyngula hit it on the nose:
This is where the Republican party has ended up: supporting an ignorant buffoon who believes in the End Times and speaking in tongues while deriding some of the best and most successful strategies for scientific research. In this next election, we've got to choose between the 21st century rationalism and Dark Age inanity. It ought to be an easy choice.
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2008, 01:18 AM
GenerationPatriot GenerationPatriot is offline
 
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Default Re: Inflation of the Vice Presidential Role?!?!?!?!

Quickly! Name seven fathers of modern conservative thought!!

If you can do that I'll take you seriously.
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  #17  
Old 11-04-2008, 01:43 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Inflation of the Vice Presidential Role?!?!?!?!

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Originally Posted by GenerationPatriot View Post
Quickly! Name seven fathers of modern conservative thought!!

If you can do that I'll take you seriously.
we should pm you so everybody doesn't have the same answer!
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  #18  
Old 11-02-2008, 10:23 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

A fascinating discussion. I think Ross underestimates the damage Noonan, Parker, Brooks, and Frum have done to their reputations among conservatives. Joining the Liberal lynch mob against Palin was neither courageous nor helpful. People won't forget. No one was demanding they praise or gush over Palin. They could have remained noncommittal or uttered platitudes. Instead all them tried to give the MSM additional ammunition to use against her.

Parker did it for the publicity and will be forgotten in a month. And Noonan with her sneering elitism has probably decided to move left in any case - no doubt to a hoped for NYT ed page position.

How Palin does in the future will depend on her positions on foreign policy, immigration, trade, etc. We still don't know how many of her talking points have been dictated by the need to support McCain.
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  #19  
Old 11-02-2008, 10:45 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcocean View Post
A fascinating discussion. I think Ross underestimates the damage Noonan, Parker, Brooks, and Frum have done to their reputations among conservatives. Joining the Liberal lynch mob against Palin was neither courageous nor helpful. People won't forget. No one was demanding they praise or gush over Palin. They could have remained noncommittal or uttered platitudes. Instead all them tried to give the MSM additional ammunition to use against her.

Parker did it for the publicity and will be forgotten in a month. And Noonan with her sneering elitism has probably decided to move left in any case - no doubt to a hoped for NYT ed page position.

How Palin does in the future will depend on her positions on foreign policy, immigration, trade, etc. We still don't know how many of her talking points have been dictated by the need to support McCain.
Wow, this is what has become of so-called "conservatism." And RC apparently imagines himself as some sort of arbiter of the term, someone capable of discerning who really deserves to call themselves "conservative," and who doesn't. It's this sort of astonishing arrogance that tempts me to say you deserve to lose. I'm not entirely opposed the conservative project - really I'm not. But what this post represents is a going to be a real source of schadenfreude after Tuesday - regardless of the outcome of the Presidential race, the legislature will undoubtedly reflect a complete rejection of the point of view represented here.
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  #20  
Old 11-02-2008, 11:14 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Wow, this is what has become of so-called "conservatism." And RC apparently imagines himself as some sort of arbiter of the term, someone capable of discerning who really deserves to call themselves "conservative," and who doesn't. It's this sort of astonishing arrogance that tempts me to say you deserve to lose. I'm not entirely opposed the conservative project - really I'm not. But what this post represents is a going to be a real source of schadenfreude after Tuesday - regardless of the outcome of the Presidential race, the legislature will undoubtedly reflect a complete rejection of the point of view represented here.
More than just schadenfreude, I'd say. If rc's attitude is prevalent among conservatives, it will cause practically unqualified joy among the left. Yes, it's good to have a strong opposition to keep your own side honest, but if we had the left, plus the moderates, plus most libertarians, plus those conservatives cast out for apostasy, I'm sure we'd have enough different difference voices.
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  #21  
Old 11-03-2008, 01:02 AM
fncll fncll is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Arguing that the VP isn't important so Sarah Palin is good enough is disingenuous. The VP used to be a symbolic position except in case of a tragedy... but Bush/Cheney changed that relationship entirely. And just as the idea that any incoming President will give up the powers that Bush and Co. grabbed for themselves, so it is that the VP position will never go back to being what it was. And if you need confirmation, listen again to Sarah Palin when asked about the role of the VP during the only VP debate...
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  #22  
Old 11-03-2008, 02:09 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

I was listening to this one and thinking, "What's the deal with Jonah Goldberg? He doesn't seem to be for any kind of conservativism, just against Democrats." And just a minute later he quotes Irving Kristol, about how conservativism needs to be not against government, but against the left. This is why Goldberg is so boring.
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  #23  
Old 11-03-2008, 02:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
I was listening to this one and thinking, "What's the deal with Jonah Goldberg? He doesn't seem to be for any kind of conservativism, just against Democrats." And just a minute later he quotes Irving Kristol, about how conservativism needs to be not against government, but against the left. This is why Goldberg is so boring.
B-b-b-but he invoked the name of Edmund Burke, too!
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2008, 09:59 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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B-b-b-but he invoked the name of Edmund Burke, too!
Yeah, he loves to drop those, like he got them out of The Big Bathroom Book for Conservatives.
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  #25  
Old 11-03-2008, 11:21 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

Ok, we are pretty muchy assured that Obama is going to win. Now, what is the stock market going to do on Wednesday? Up, down, or no change. This is what I am curious about.

I heard that Warren Buffett wants Obama to retain Henry Paulson at the Treasury at least for a short term. Another "headscratcher."

John
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  #26  
Old 11-04-2008, 09:25 AM
goregulation goregulation is offline
 
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Default Re: The Conservative Civil War

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Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
Yeah, he loves to drop those, like he got them out of The Big Bathroom Book for Conservatives.
I think some of the things he says don't mean what he thinks they mean, either. I was thinking that this time when he said "Aristotelian"; I have never heard Aristotle's philosophy used to refer to "put things into categories" or whatever explanation he was trying to give.

I would like to see Goldberg matched with Christopher Hitchens, who I believe would be least likely to allow him to get away with that crap.
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  #27  
Old 11-03-2008, 03:57 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

The Republican party has ceded the party of Lincoln to the intolerant religious moralists, the anti-immigration xenophobes, and the frothing out the mouth free market acquisitors. It will be a marginal party in America for the next decade.

9/11 changed me from a democrat to a republican and now the McCain campaign has reversed that transformation. I see an Obama vote as a vote for unity and bipartisanship and a McCain vote as a vote for divisiveness. It is truly sad because a man like McCain could have moved the Republican party away from the Rush Limbaugh's of the world and into the 21st century, instead he appeased them. I'm one of those small "c" moderates that Rush says good riddance too-- well I say good riddance to him-- he can have his loud mouthed hate faction all to himself and he and the Colters of the world can be drowned out by the implementation of the fairness doctrine for all I care now.

Obama is the better man, the better candidate, and more what America needs to move us past our post-9/11 morass.
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2008, 04:28 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

I take back my last post... there is hope for you after all...
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2008, 05:18 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Ha! Obama wants an escalation in Afghanistan and I'm convinced (b/c of Powell's endorsement) that he's going to consolidate our gains in Iraq in a way that will maintain our geopolitical influence in the region. I think Obama can help more fully realize Bush's dream of a democratic Iraq precisely because of his opposition to the war. He has clean hands, so his negotiations there will be more effective because he can say "I didn't want this" but we got to make it work now.

If Obama lets Iraq disintegrate and retreats from Afghanistan I'll be screaming for a Petraus 2012.
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  #30  
Old 11-03-2008, 05:22 PM
cognitive madisonian cognitive madisonian is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

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Originally Posted by bookofdisquiet View Post
Ha! Obama wants an escalation in Afghanistan and I'm convinced (b/c of Powell's endorsement) that he's going to consolidate our gains in Iraq in a way that will maintain our geopolitical influence in the region. I think Obama can help more fully realize Bush's dream of a democratic Iraq precisely because of his opposition to the war. He has clean hands, so his negotiations there will be more effective because he can say "I didn't want this" but we got to make it work now.

If Obama lets Iraq disintegrate and retreats from Afghanistan I'll be screaming for a Petraus 2012.
Well, I'd love for you to be correct on that first sentence, should he get elected, but I'm not so sure. Afghanistan is a difficult situation and I have no clue what the correct strategy but I'm confident David Petraeus will find it. I'm not confident Obama will implement it. I don't see the JFK type of belief in American exceptionalism and commitment to being a positive influence in the world. I think Obama will choose retreat and weakness if it is politically expedient.
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  #31  
Old 11-03-2008, 05:48 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

I'm scared of that as well-- but I just really don't see him shying away from the use of military force-- and I imagine that he would be much more persuasive convincing the public and the world why its necessary. He's almost the perfect follow-up to Bush in that regard because he gets to do the right thing in Iraq and Afghanistan without having to make the same tough choices Bush has taken a beating for-- he can just say he didn't want this but he's obligated to clean it up now. Bush can be the fall guy now, so that history will see his monument somewhere on the mall in 100 years. (trying to fire up anti-bush crowd)
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  #32  
Old 11-04-2008, 07:58 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

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I'm scared of that as well-- but I just really don't see him shying away from the use of military force-- and I imagine that he would be much more persuasive convincing the public and the world why its necessary. He's almost the perfect follow-up to Bush in that regard because he gets to do the right thing in Iraq and Afghanistan without having to make the same tough choices Bush has taken a beating for-- he can just say he didn't want this but he's obligated to clean it up now. Bush can be the fall guy now, so that history will see his monument somewhere on the mall in 100 years. (trying to fire up anti-bush crowd)
Or maybe... just maybe, he can find smart new, high tech ways of dealing with foreign policy issues, with scorched earth at a $1000 a square foot being a LAST resort, saving thousands of lives and billions of dollars. The smart use of advisers and intelligence, the smart use of sanctions, allies, and high tech weaponry, the ability to negotiate smartly, and above all, the ability to put the interests of the American people, and the people of the world, above those of the multinational corporations.

Bush was dumb. Obama is smart. I hope you get the chance to bear witness to the difference.
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  #33  
Old 11-04-2008, 08:46 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Bush wasn't dumb-- and the military adjusted to combat circumstances (IEDs) well considering the nature of the weapons used against them regardless of your Monday morning quarterbacking. The military also developed a top-secret weapon that apparently gives them a technological advantage fighting an insurgency and a new counterinsurgency strategy. I imagine Obama will do well to continue with this strategy model in his planned escalation in Afghanistan.

I shouldn't even bother to mention the billions of dollars and good will Bush has fostered in Africa in order to insulate those populations from militant Islamists because you're obviously too dense to have this kind of discussion. Under Powell, Bush used USAID to implement the government's development objectives through public/private alliances under a program called the Global Development Alliance. The military is digging water wells and providing health clinics in villages in Africa as we speak. The military and their intelligence people (including RAND Corp.)are game planning this struggle for the next 100 years. Bush abandoned the realist view that accepts stability over freedom and tied America to scurrilous tyrannical allies. He has in essence declared war on tyranny. That kind of foresight and long-term thinking, along with the creation of a cabinet level agency (DHS) and the centralization of our intelligence agencies, will assure Bush goes down in history as much more than the "dumb" guy you so callously dismiss.
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  #34  
Old 11-05-2008, 02:32 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookofdisquiet View Post
Bush wasn't dumb-- and the military adjusted to combat circumstances (IEDs) well considering the nature of the weapons used against them regardless of your Monday morning quarterbacking. The military also developed a top-secret weapon that apparently gives them a technological advantage fighting an insurgency and a new counterinsurgency strategy. I imagine Obama will do well to continue with this strategy model in his planned escalation in Afghanistan.
You are right, this was done by the military to clean up Bush's mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookofdisquiet View Post
I shouldn't even bother to mention the billions of dollars and good will Bush has fostered in Africa in order to insulate those populations from militant Islamists because you're obviously too dense to have this kind of discussion. Under Powell, Bush used USAID to implement the government's development objectives through public/private alliances under a program called the Global Development Alliance. The military is digging water wells and providing health clinics in villages in Africa as we speak. The military and their intelligence people (including RAND Corp.)are game planning this struggle for the next 100 years. Bush abandoned the realist view that accepts stability over freedom and tied America to scurrilous tyrannical allies. He has in essence declared war on tyranny. That kind of foresight and long-term thinking, along with the creation of a cabinet level agency (DHS) and the centralization of our intelligence agencies, will assure Bush goes down in history as much more than the "dumb" guy you so callously dismiss.
Bush is dumb
Not to mention:
Un-reflective, unconstitutional, incompetent, unflinching, unaware, uninvolved, unrepentant, unthinking, uncaring, undemocratic, sneering, arrogant and ignorant.
And your defense of him is unfathomable. Thank God the long nightmare is over.
He did do one great thing, unintentionally though, I see him as the one person, most responsible, for the Obama victory.

And BTW we are all Monday morning quarterbacks here, and I take it as a complement, so thank you...
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  #35  
Old 11-05-2008, 04:00 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Honestly, people like you are what's wrong with this country-- you are a thoughtless vilifier -- you're the same as the Ann Coulters of the world and you don't even recognize it.

Perhaps a few words from our president-elect from Audacity of Hope:

.... And yet publicly it's difficult to find much soul-searching or introspection on either side of the divide, or even the slightest admission of responsibility for the gridlock. What we hear instead, not only in campaigns but on editorial pages, on bookstands, or in the ever-expanding blog universe, are deflections of criticism and assignments of blame. Depending on your tastes, our condition is the natural result of radical conservatism or perverse liberalism, Tom Delay or Nancy Pelosi, big oil or greedy trial lawyers, religious zealots or gay activists, Fox News or the New York Times. How well these stories are told, the subtlety of the arguments and the quality of the evidence, will very by author, and I won't deny my preference for the story the Democrats tell, nor my belief that the arguments of liberals are more often grounded in reason and fact. In distilled form, though, the explanations of both the right and the left have become mirror images of each other. They are stories of conspiracy, of America being hijacked by an evil cabal. Like all good conspiracy theories, both tales contain just enough truth to satisfy those predisposed to believe in them, without admitting any contradictions that might shake up those assumptions. Their purpose is not to persuade the other side but to keep their bases agitated and assured of the rightness of their respective causes-- and lure just enough new adherents to beat the other side into submission.

Here's more from Obama on President Bush:

It is to say that after all the trappings of office--the titles, the staff, the security details--are stripped away, I find the President and those who surround him to be pretty much like everybody else, possessed of the same mix of virtues and vices, insecurities and long-buried injuries, as the rest of us. No matter how wrong headed I might consider their policies to be-- and no matter how much I might insist that they be held accountable for the results of such policies-- i still find it possible, in talking to these men and women, to understand their motives, and to recognize in them values I share.



Maybe you could learn some grace from someone you purport to idolize, maybe you could drop the infantile and silly screed and recognize it for what it is-- your vain and blind self-righteousness.
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  #36  
Old 11-06-2008, 12:11 AM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Oh yea, I forgot unscrupulous and unethical. And I don't idolize anybody.
Obama is smart, Bush is a moron.
Maybe you didn't go to school with these rich kids like I did (as a middle class kid), they were hard drinking jocks and frat boys with no respect for anyone, most inherited their dads businesses, tried to outdo their more capable fathers and most of them squandered their legacies in record time.
Spoiled rotten, arrogant, entitled, and totally ungrateful. Take a look at what happened to Clinton's surplus, and the open market, and every other aspect of American life, and wake up.

Last edited by handle; 11-06-2008 at 12:15 AM..
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  #37  
Old 11-06-2008, 12:22 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

You might want to get a handle, Handle. All the problems you preach about, the surplus, the market, etc., etc. -- you might want to think about who really caused all that -- Clinton signed and passed Glass/Stegall and the artificially low interest rate was a product of the post 9/11 stimulus. The economy was headed into a steep recession b/c everyone was sh*tting their pants.

I have no interest in continuing this with you-- you're not interested in debate-- your just a loud mouth know nothing who should take their bile to Daily Kos.
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  #38  
Old 11-06-2008, 04:11 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookofdisquiet View Post
You might want to get a handle, Handle. All the problems you preach about, the surplus, the market, etc., etc. -- you might want to think about who really caused all that -- Clinton signed and passed Glass/Stegall and the artificially low interest rate was a product of the post 9/11 stimulus. The economy was headed into a steep recession b/c everyone was sh*tting their pants.
You are right, it started with Clinton, but what did Bush do about it in 8 years? Put more foxes in the hen house, his current economic adviser was a former head of Goldman Sachs. Who did they consult on energy policy early on? Kenny "rolling blackout" Lay, from you guessed it... Enron! Stupid!
How is it the guy is president for 8 disastrous years, 73% of everybody thinks he's the worst ever and you won't admit he's responsible for anything that happened on his watch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bookofdisquiet View Post
I have no interest in continuing this with you-- you're not interested in debate-- your just a loud mouth know nothing who should take their bile to Daily Kos.
You never wanted to debate, all you ever seem to do is take the most unbending deluded ideological stance on Iraq and will not admit it might have been ill advised to romp in like some rogue superpower bent on aggression.
You really think Bush and Co. were concerned with Iraqi freedom? They only made that one up after no one bought the "WMD", "hot bed of terrorism" and "taking the fight to the enemy" lies.
The truth is, the only thing Bush was ever really concerned about or showed competence in was running for office, and if you don't think the war was nothing but a ploy to build "political capitol" as part of his re-election campaign, you are sadly mistaken.
They thought it was going to be cheap and easy, and might have been, if they hadn't made the huge blunder of completely dismantling the infrastructure, and plunging the entire country into chaos. But the war and his incumbency got him re-elected anyway. Five years and a trillion dollars into it, he finally lets the real military minds tackle the problem and finally put the brakes on the hemmoraging, and it's still not over, and you think this is brilliant? He didn't even think of any of it! In fact, he insisted for years that Rummy was on the right track! Mega-stupid!

You think history is going to be kind to the worst, most clueless guy to ever hold the office after not even winning the election? You are in scarce company.
In his first year he spent more time on vacation than any previous president, ignored a key memo warning of a terrorist attack and important intel backing it up.
After 9/11 he made up the ridiculous excuse that the FBI and the CIA failed to communicate! Both entities report to the president! It is his job to prioritize threats and poll them for information. This is how Clinton averted a terrorist attack on the millennium known as the "millennium bomb plot", he engaged in active leadership encouraging, rather than discouraging, the flow of any and all information about potential threats. Smart!
And that's just how Bush kicked off his blundering tenure. I could go on and on and on with example after example of how your hero has done nothing smart in a long, long time.
But you are in love with the idea of forcing your ideology at the expense of human life and suffering, and without the support of the rest of the civilized world, and have never listened to reason, and that's why in this thread, I took the position that I was arguing with a wet rag, and I was wasting my time, but make no mistake, I am totally convinced of Bush's incompetence and ignorance, and there is miles of evidence to back up my assertion.

But lo and behold, the rag argued back... you are always ranting about "daily kos" types that won't drink your kool-aid, no offense, but I'm not the one who needs to get a grip and face reality: they just took over the government, you are in for at least 8 years of searing pain, and confusion, take it from someone who knows.

I take full responsibility for engaging with someone I already knew was a whack job, but now you are number two on my kidneystones hall of fame "not gonna read it" list.

Last edited by handle; 11-06-2008 at 05:03 PM.. Reason: typo
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  #39  
Old 11-06-2008, 04:46 PM
bookofdisquiet bookofdisquiet is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 212
Default Re: 9/11 Bush Republican now Obama Democrat

wow, get a handle, Handle. You must listen to Alex Jones-- no 9/11 wasn't an inside job. Your right, it's all Bush's (the man who got 62 million votes in the last election) fault. Your vitriol is as juvenile as is your argument. I wonder what Lincoln's approval rating would have been after he suspended habeas corpus and went to war with an oppressive slave holder society? I wonder what FDR's approval rating would have been if he declared war on Germany (as he should have) prior to Pearl Harbor? If approval ratings show anything, it's how utterly thoughtless and infantile the American public can be.

The financial crisis? I doubt you could tell me what CDOs and CDSs are, let alone how the markets for those instruments work apart from what you read on Wikipedia. What's your opinion on banks using SIVs?

And to blame Bush for 9/11 is outrageous--of course he was responsible for keeping George Tennett (a Clinton appointee) at the CIA and his incompetence could have contributed. Maybe you ought to blame 9/11 on the right person-- Osama Bin Laden-- and the 20,000 or so terrorists that we've been killing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course, Clinton had a shot of killing Bin Laden and didn't take it. You should read Imperial Hubris to get that story-- oh wait, don't bother, you probably think 9/11 was an inside job by Haliburton.

I suppose Bush is responsible for your pathetic one dimensional life as well-- you're a one note song and, quite frankly, it's way beyond boring at this point listening to it. Have fun spewing with yourself you intellectual coward.
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  #40  
Old 11-06-2008, 04:59 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default didn't read it

buh bye!
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