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  #41  
Old 07-11-2011, 09:30 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I also have a problem with the cynical use of white racial resentment by political parties in the U.S. - and one reason why there's a relationship between conservatives and racism in this nation, at this time, is the direct result of Nixon's Southern Strategy response to the Civil Rights Act, and the realignment caused by that legislation including the flight of southern white racists from the Democratic party to the Republicans.
I agree with that whole post.

With respect to the part I've bolded, I'll say that the Southern Strategy is alive and well. (Though it's a national strategy, not a Southern one.) Just the past two years show GOP messaging continues to be replete with the exact same kinds of racially charged messaging that defined the Southern Strategy -- everything from the attacks on ACORN to the New Black Panthers (aka "two guys") to the Shirley Sherrod fiasco to the treatment of the "wise Latina" Sonia Sotomayor to the Ground Zero Mosque to the alarm over Sharia to Drudge's and Fox News' constant emphasis on black on white crime to ... we could go on and on like this.

Too often people talk about the Southern Strategy like it's this thing that happened a long time ago. But it's happening right now, every day, in the Republican Party. Appeals to racial and ethnic hatred remain a central part of the GOP strategy for winning elections.

This is one of the reasons there is so much rage at liberals for pointing it out. The charge wouldn't have so much potency if it was easier to deny. But it's impossible to deny, and the result is enormous conservative frustration at being branded with the truthful and accurate label. The conservatives pushing back know the charge is accurate, and they feel a little guilt and a little cognitive dissonance variously defending, rationalizing, justifying, or denying it.

But this is the old dilemma in a two party system where appeals to racial and ethnic hatred remain a key to electoral success: What do you do if you're, say, a gay person who believes in supply side economics? Or a black person who believes in a strong national defense? Or a Muslim who believes in traditional family values? Or an Hispanic who favors "free trade" and low taxes?

Where do you go when one of the two political parties is infused with people who hate you?

We know the answer. Most vote Democratic.

But what do you do if you're a white person who is opposed to racism but who supports GOP policies?

We know the answer to that one, too. A majority decide they can live with the racism and they vote Republican anyway.

I guess it's harder to make that calculation when you're actually a target for GOP hatemongering; but when it's just an abstraction, as it is for white people, then no big whoop -- pull that lever for the GOP.

In a less sick political culture, the GOP would get its fair share of black, gay, Muslim, and Hispanic votes. But we don't have that political culture. We have, instead, Steve Sailer's and Richard Nixon's political culture, one in which Sailer literally advocates framing the two parties as the White Party and the non-white party. He calls it the Sailer Strategy.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 07-11-2011 at 10:48 PM..
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  #42  
Old 07-11-2011, 10:57 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

Wow, that vdare link is all kinds of f***ed up.
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2011, 10:59 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
The charges of racism at specific people are either fair or not fair, accurate or not accurate, and reasonable or not reasonable. They aren't any different than any other charge. Most people don't respond to the frequent "class warfare" charge that some on the right make against some on the left (one that can also be fair or unfair, etc) with an analogy to Nazism; instead they focus on whether it is accurate in that specific instance. The leap to Naziism seems dramatically overblown to me.

As to whether the election is about race and class- well, again- the charge that it's about class doesn't seem any less unfair than the charge that it's about race, but the right seem happy to make that claim (I should also point out that the charge that the election was about race was one that some on the right were quite happy to make in the last presidential election- several argued that Obama only won because he was Black- do I really have to dig up the links?). And, again, it's a proposition that may or may not be true, depending on what happens and one's assessment of that. I don't see how such a claim is out of bounds necessarily, given that it's possible to be true in some circumstances.
Good post.

I generally don't call even the Steve Sailers of the world racist, because that's what they want -- they want to make the conversation about how liberals are calling them racist. That's part of the strategy TS references. But I think it's silly to suggest that there's something dreadful about calling Sailer and the like on the clear implication of their words. It's a limited claim. As as Jeff points out, it's one that in this case was certainly not raised initially by "liberals."

Last edited by stephanie; 07-11-2011 at 11:03 PM..
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:13 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
... we could go on and on like this.
It's outrageous how thick it has become. I think I kept waiting for some magic moment to come - like when Tea Party people were actually elected - and the nation, including the Republican party would be like, "Whoa. OK. We've really gone too far. We need to look in the mirror." But no. The '10 sweep I think wiped a bit of the froth from people's mouths, but it's simmering hot as ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
We have, instead, Steve Sailer's and Richard Nixon's political culture, one in which Sailer literally advocates framing the two parties as the White Party and the non-white party. He calls it the Sailer Strategy.
Then there's this.

edit: lol - from that link, the tea party is accused of racism from the left, but apparently Stormfront thinks they're bluffing too:
Quote:
But as Don Black, who founded the white supremacist organization Stormfront tells Conant, the Tea Party is "skittish when it comes to talking about racial realities," and "are too conditioned to run like scared rabbits when called racists.”
You just can't win!
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Last edited by eeeeeeeli; 07-11-2011 at 11:16 PM..
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:46 PM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I just don't see how it's inappropriate to make evaluative statements about someone's behavior. Calling someone dumb or ignorant isn't thought policing either, although there's the existential quesiton as to whether the person who says and does dumb things is really dumb or engaging in elaborate performance art or whathave you. People make inferences about the internal states of each other all the time. And that's assuming that "racist" is a label denoting an internal state, rather than a pattern of behavior and speech.
Hasn't this devolved into an issue of simple semantics.

Sugarkang brought up the Casey(?) trial - you surely can't convict someone on a feeling. But there is a particular reason the bar of evidence is so high for court cases - people lives depend on them. The same could be said for science - it is useless without good, hard data from which further work can be done.

Yet we are talking about people and feelings. People are complex and weird. Who really knows what is in the mind of anyone? Obviously someone who admits to being racist can be sure to be a racist. (Or maybe not - back to the courts, innocent people make false statements. Maybe they aren't even really that racist!)

But most racists won't admit it, certainly not those whose heads are filled with vile stereotypes and biases yet somehow consciously believe themselves to not be racist. So as a social matter, trying to figure each other out, we make assumptions and judgement calls.

I would definitely call Steve Sailor a racist - whatever that means. I am profoundly suspicious that his entire line of inquiry is based on highly subjective intuitions about race that he either went into with or came out of with, but has now embraced.

Racism is just too creepy and powerful to not take seriously. Shit, I know I have my share of messed up biases I have to keep in check. And I've been thinking about this stuff for years. It seems to be almost a part of our DNA - at least the suspicion, the in-group preference, the bias of privilege, etc.

At the end of the day, what probably most kills people on the left who emphasize race is just how unseriously the right has always dealt with race. It's like this weird bogeyman that went from being perfectly natural, to unnatural and terrible overnight, with nary a self-analysis in-between. I mean, so much of what has moved our national consciousness of racism and inequality has been driven by people on the left focusing on it as a problem. You can't help but get the feeling that the right simply doesn't care about it, except as a way to point out excesses of the left, or when they feel falsely attacked.

This is the heart of Colbert's joke that "he doesn't see race". It is satirizing the obvious phoniness and sort of ideological nihilism on the right when it comes to dealing with the real roots and reality of racism. You look at a party like the Republicans and they just seem oblivious. There's a big, fat, stinking sore wedged deep in their chest and they refuse to even acknowledge it.
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  #46  
Old 07-12-2011, 01:24 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
Hasn't this devolved into an issue of simple semantics.
Well, I know this (not directed at you eeeeeeeli). I've yet to see Sailer's comments be racist. Maybe they exist, but I'm not going to point my finger without knowing. And of the comments I've highlighted, is anyone seriously going to say those were racist?

I could see xenophobia, maybe. After all, it seems like he's internally consistent to what he argues for. Some sort of national solidarity, not based in race, but based on borders. Of course, that could be racist. Is it de facto racist?

And for the sake of argument, let's say that I agree that it is. Now, then ask yourselves if you or your friends have ever looked to buy a house and asked the realtor, "Is it in a good neighborhood?" Do I have to be so obvious in translating what that means?

So, maybe the next time any of you point your sanctimonious fingers, you should question whether or not you are complicit in the same behavior.
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Last edited by sugarkang; 07-12-2011 at 01:27 AM..
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  #47  
Old 07-12-2011, 11:11 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
h/t edroso, who notes:
...
Edroso has mail! (Or more properly, he's collected commentary from the Voice article I linked yesterday.)

Quote:

I know it hurts your liberal feelings that these 'ooga boogas' can't behave and act somewhat human...

American blacks need to be encouraged to immigrate to Africa, where they can be among their own and create their own civilization. Let’s face it…blacks are unfit to live among humans in human civilization...

Maybe miscegenation is the answer for your daughter, sugerpuff. I'm sure you're evolved enough it won't bother you at all. Until the black dude leaves her a single mother, and you can't get him to pay child support...

But this is what diversity is like for the rest of us: chaos, violence, fear, distrust, theft, assault, battery, rape, murder, gangs, declining property values...

Black folks: Is there nothing they can't blame on white folks?...

Let us know when your daughter has neighbors of feral fatherless young black males. Until then your words are of no value...
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Last edited by AemJeff; 07-12-2011 at 11:23 AM.. Reason: fix typo
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  #48  
Old 07-12-2011, 01:34 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

That's really unfair of you Jeff. I'm sure if you were to ask this guy if he is a racist, he would say no.
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  #49  
Old 07-12-2011, 01:41 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

What does a random racist have anything to do with Steve Sailer? You know, the guy who is "plainly racist" because he denies it. Clearly?

Is it the entire Gang of 12 that attended the same School of Logic? I'd get your tuition back.
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Last edited by sugarkang; 07-12-2011 at 01:54 PM..
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  #50  
Old 07-13-2011, 02:15 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

I thought one of the main benefits of Brendan not being here anymore would be we wouldn't have these kinds of posts anymore. Sorry Jeff, I'm not saying you had bad intentions, but I think most of us know the kind of discussion that ensues in a thread like this.
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  #51  
Old 07-13-2011, 02:20 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by chiwhisoxx View Post
I thought one of the main benefits of Brendan not being here anymore would be we wouldn't have these kinds of posts anymore. Sorry Jeff, I'm not saying you had bad intentions, but I think most of us know the kind of discussion that ensues in a thread like this.
Actually, with notable exceptions, I think we saw a reasonably good discussion of the merits here. And while I'll freely admit to impure intentions, my bottom-line motivation is to shine a bright light on certain things that I think are loathesome and which ought to seen for what they are (IMO) -- which, I might add, was the same reason Brendan has had for posting in threads he's created.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 07-13-2011 at 02:59 PM..
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2011, 06:22 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

Jeff, the problem is not with overtly racist statements by wingnuts, it's with people like Edroso, Brendan and yourself who insist on drawing attention to those statements. Whatever racism exists in the Tea Party and greater Wingnuttia would surely evaporate if people like you would stop inciting it by reprinting their words.
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  #53  
Old 07-13-2011, 06:33 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Jeff, the problem is not with overtly racist statements by wingnuts, it's with people like Edroso, Brendan and yourself who insist on drawing attention to those statements. Whatever racism exists in the Tea Party and greater Wingnuttia would surely evaporate if people like you would stop inciting it by reprinting their words.
You're so right. They never address this kind of malevolent undercurrent, that most certainly informs one of the major parties, on the fair and reasonable Morning Joe program. Out of sight, out of mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
There's only one network television show with an adult conversation between Democrats and Republicans and it's Morning Joe. Regardless of what you think about the show, there does not exist a moderate liberal equivalent.

The people are stupid because they want to be stupid. They're angry because they want to be angry.
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  #54  
Old 07-13-2011, 07:41 PM
chiwhisoxx chiwhisoxx is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Jeff, the problem is not with overtly racist statements by wingnuts, it's with people like Edroso, Brendan and yourself who insist on drawing attention to those statements. Whatever racism exists in the Tea Party and greater Wingnuttia would surely evaporate if people like you would stop inciting it by reprinting their words.
I hope you don't think that was my point
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  #55  
Old 07-24-2011, 03:58 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Wow, that vdare link is all kinds of f***ed up.
Indeed. I would extend that sentiment to the GOP as a whole. Clearly the professional class of Republicans -- their strategists, party leaders, elected officials, and their media presence (Fox News, talk radio, etc.) -- are obviously dedicated to fostering racial, religious, and ethnic hatred for political advantage.
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  #56  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:03 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Apparently, if you notice these things you’re just being a hateful racist

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Originally Posted by eeeeeeeli View Post
It's outrageous how thick it has become. I think I kept waiting for some magic moment to come - like when Tea Party people were actually elected - and the nation, including the Republican party would be like, "Whoa. OK. We've really gone too far. We need to look in the mirror." But no.
Yep. We keep waiting for people to catch on, and they just keep not catching on. I think there is a fundamental flaw in the liberal notion that the public would be offended if they only understood how vile and hateful the heart of the GOP is. The fact is that the GOP deploys the politics of hate because they work. Some of my liberal friends have suggested that outspoken liberal resistance to hatemongering, racism and bigotry actually just makes it worse -- actually pushes people in the opposite of the desired direction. I fear there is truth to this. We might be making things worse with our opposition.
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