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  #1  
Old 05-16-2010, 05:37 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

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  #2  
Old 05-16-2010, 06:50 PM
Sgt Schultz Sgt Schultz is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Ohhhh! Cawfee Tawk!
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  #3  
Old 05-16-2010, 07:09 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

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Originally Posted by Sgt Schultz View Post
Ohhhh! Cawfee Tawk!
No big Whoop.
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  #4  
Old 05-17-2010, 12:04 AM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

This was an incredibly assholish comment.
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  #5  
Old 05-17-2010, 12:15 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

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Originally Posted by kezboard View Post
This was an incredibly assholish comment.
You just made his day.
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  #6  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:18 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Was there ANYTHING Good about W??

Grasping at straws!!
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:53 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

The first half of the diavlog was interesting. The new wave of feminism, anti-feminism feminists, role of women in different socio-political value systems, were touched on. Both diavloggers were thoughtful and presented well argued points.

Then the second part referred to sex-positive feminism, social pressures and prescriptions for happiness. Suddenly both diavloggers seemed to become more insecure, with a certain degree of naivete and disorientation. Perhaps they were empathizing with the dilemmas that younger women may encounter before their identities have been consolidated and during the years of decision making about what course to take with one's life. I don't think they stressed strongly enough the fact that ideally women (and men, of course) shouldn't shape their behavior or their morals on what's trendy. We have the fortune of living at a time when there are many options that are acceptable. We should be able to find the ones that are best suited to our own preferences and personality. It's understandable to have periods of transition and uncertainty, but eventually there will an option that fits. When that moment comes, be proud of it!
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  #8  
Old 05-16-2010, 09:22 PM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
The first half of the diavlog was interesting. The new wave of feminism, anti-feminism feminists, role of women in different socio-political value systems, were touched on. Both diavloggers were thoughtful and presented well argued points.

Then the second part referred to sex-positive feminism, social pressures and prescriptions for happiness. Suddenly both diavloggers seemed to become more insecure, with a certain degree of naivete and disorientation. Perhaps they were empathizing with the dilemmas that younger women may encounter before their identities have been consolidated and during the years of decision making about what course to take with one's life. I don't think they stressed strongly enough the fact that ideally women (and men, of course) shouldn't shape their behavior or their morals on what's trendy. We have the fortune of living at a time when there are many options that are acceptable. We should be able to find the ones that are best suited to our own preferences and personality. It's understandable to have periods of transition and uncertainty, but eventually there will an option that fits. When that moment comes, be proud of it!
You know, a few hours ago I had a comment written, which I deleted, that said:

I liked this. I always feel like everyone is telling me I've made all the wrong choices in life, what to do, where to live, what relationships to have, etc. Is it any different for women, or do women just get a lot of shit from other women, while men get a lot of shit from other men.

Additionally, and seriously wondering:

I feel sorry for Emily Gould for getting so much shit on the internet. However, it should be noted that she's a Gawker person. I don't know what she wrote at Gawker, but don't you get fired from there if you're not a total raving asshole to everyone all the time?
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:33 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by osmium View Post

I liked this. I always feel like everyone is telling me I've made all the wrong choices in life, what to do, where to live, what relationships to have, etc. Is it any different for women, or do women just get a lot of shit from other women, while men get a lot of shit from other men.
I think my parents had it nailed.

My father used to say "in our house my wife makes all the little decisions; where we are going to live, where I'm going to work, who our friends are going to be. I make all the big decisions; who the president is going to be , whether the US should go to war.....

No one gave them any shit nor would they have cared if anyone had.
People kinda minded their own business in those days and even had a sense of humor!
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  #10  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:36 AM
Ray Ray is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
People kinda minded their own business in those days and even had a sense of humor!
No; people did not mind their business in those days.

It was precisely people like your parents who objected to any familial protocol other than the one they themselves observed.

No family is an island.
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  #11  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:36 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
but eventually there will an option that fits. When that moment comes, be proud of it!
Hopefully it will be more than a moment. But no satisfaction lasts forever. Realizing that is essential to happiness.
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2010, 09:12 PM
SaraK SaraK is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Traister's point about the lack of set paths meaning that no matter what a woman chooses, there will be another woman telling her (perhaps indirectly, via column/blog post) it will make her unhappy is an important one.
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  #13  
Old 05-17-2010, 06:38 AM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraK View Post
Traister's point about the lack of set paths meaning that no matter what a woman chooses, there will be another woman telling her (perhaps indirectly, via column/blog post) it will make her unhappy is an important one.
This is not an important point. To paraphrase a genius, life is about trade-offs, not solutions. Feminists have, for years, focussed on producing different paths, and even though they now have many they seem no more content.
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:11 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default @ no one wanting to hear women saying they are happy

I actually find it nice to hear that people are happy. Better that than them being miserable.


As far as women talking about being happy in their relationship lives, it's OK. If only as a counterpoint to the throngs of people in the world who complain about how miserable they are and how bad their life is, even with the reality of their situation and life being better than 99% of every human being that has ever lived on this earth (western world).

It is a sliver of acknowledgement that they are not so ungrateful and dismissive for the good in their lives, and to the extent people can do that, like saying they enjoy their relationship/spouse and life, that is a good thing.
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  #15  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:48 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Goldberg. Resist the urge to interrupt. You and Matt Yglesias need to start a support group.

edit: nevermind. i guess she isn't as bad in this one.

Last edited by sugarkang; 05-16-2010 at 10:56 PM..
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  #16  
Old 05-17-2010, 12:17 AM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Traister's habit of treating the Right as a monolithic bloc keeps her from being very insightful. For example, she seems to think that after MLK the Right instantly and universally started pretending to embrace him. Everyone knows that's not true, though, as the internal fighting between Rockefeller Republicans (who never really disliked MLK) and the John Birch Society (who still hate him) are legendary. The Right didn't universally or hypocritically abandon segregation, it fought it out and eventually right-thinking conservatives won the day. It's the exact same thing as the Left and the end of Southern Democrats, which Traister does seem to understand- lefties weren't particularly racist, but the anti-racist Dems were kept quiet until racism stopped being politically profitable.
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:33 AM
CrowsMakeTools CrowsMakeTools is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

This dialogue was somewhat less interesting in the beginning, where Traister and Goldberg were rather predictably reciting the liberal complaints and headbanging about Sarah Palin and the right wing's attempt to use her nomination to rhetorical advantage in re-branding feminism as a Republican virtue. It got more interesting as the discussion moved towards the analysis of the more general cultural currents about choice and happiness. This is really a more general problem in technologically advanced cultures, where the imperatives of survival and reproduction have gradually been supplanted by new choices, so that pleasure becomes decoupled from its evolved functional significance. Thus we can spend money on drinking sweet soft drinks with no caloric content, and acquiring contraceptives that disconnect our sex lives from reproductive consequences.

It seems to me that the anxieties women experience concerning choices in sexuality and relationships are really part of a more general problem in human psychology that relates to the choice paradox--we constantly seek to increase our degrees of freedom in making choices, while too many options create new cognitive strains that contribute to anxiety and dissatisfaction. When women (men too, but let's stick to the subject at hand) are faced with an abundance of choices concerning options in relationships (a very new development in human history) the tendency is to try to use one's social network as a kind of filter, to refine and inform one's choices. And nobody, least of all Michelle or Rebecca, likes to be told that they have made a poor choice, or that the short-term advantages and happiness they may be experiencing will inevitably evolve towards disappointment and regret.

For more on the choice paradox (Barry Schwartz) and the evidence in favor of the drive for more freedom of choice (Chris Anderson) and filtering as the solution, see: http://searchengineland.com/human-ha...f-choice-14283
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  #18  
Old 05-17-2010, 07:56 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Nice post.

You said:

Quote:
When women (men too, but let's stick to the subject at hand) are faced with an abundance of choices concerning options in relationships (a very new development in human history) the tendency is to try to use one's social network as a kind of filter, to refine and inform one's choices.
It's possible that having so many choices, people find more than one choice that have equal or similar value. In order to decide which one they will carry, they may use secondary sets of criteria, so to speak. One of those may be what's valued or prevalent in one's social network. The problem arises when one's social network is also very diversified and the options are really close in value without much external pressure to choose one over the other. The state of ambivalence that develops may need to be settled by using other psychological tools or it creates great anxiety and insecurity.
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  #19  
Old 05-18-2010, 08:09 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowsMakeTools View Post
And nobody, least of all Michelle or Rebecca, likes to be told that they have made a poor choice, or that the short-term advantages and happiness they may be experiencing will inevitably evolve towards disappointment and regret.
Besides which no one really knows what will happen. Life is like a box of chocolates....my mama said.

Nice post by the way.
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  #20  
Old 05-17-2010, 07:05 AM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default Rage of the Privileged Class

When Goldberg says "white resentment" I get the impression that she views gentiles (who tend to vote against her schemes) as "the other." How does she (at her age) maintain her radicalism and dislike of the majority of America when she and her co-ethnics have become the richest and most powerful group in the country? Seriously... 2-4% of the population and 15% of the senators, 1/4 of the Fortune 400, the highest median income, 85% college graduation rate, boundless power in academe, journalism, Hollywood, law, yadda yadda yadda. If Whites are so resentful, how have her people attained the commanding heights?
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  #21  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:07 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Rage of the Privileged Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by breadcrust View Post
When Goldberg says "white resentment" I get the impression that she views gentiles (who tend to vote against her schemes) as "the other." How does she (at her age) maintain her radicalism and dislike of the majority of America when she and her co-ethnics have become the richest and most powerful group in the country? Seriously... 2-4% of the population and 15% of the senators, 1/4 of the Fortune 400, the highest median income, 85% college graduation rate, boundless power in academe, journalism, Hollywood, law, yadda yadda yadda. If Whites are so resentful, how have her people attained the commanding heights?
Is overt racism against a diavloguer acceptable now? Not every political position held by a Jewish person is a "scheme" (and that link doesn't support your claim anyways) and Goldberg "and her co-ethnics" don't have "boundless power in academe, journalism, Hollywood, law" nor are they "the richest and most powerful group in the country". They aren't even the richest and most powerful ethnic group.

Jews have had a fair shot in the US because Jew-haters such as yourself are in the margins.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2010, 07:41 AM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default A Death of the Family

From Marx (like you guys haven't already read this)

Quote:
On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
Feminists like Goldberg want some things: welfare, especially for women with children; no shaming for their hypergamous ways; easy divorce; complete control over the decision whether to abort; men forced to pay child support regardless of whether they wanted the child; for government to force employers to pay women more than they're worth. So, since the 60s and the institution of these wonderful ideas, out-of-wedlock birth has gone from under ten percent to over 40. And here's the kicker: Black out-of-wedlock birth is now over 70%. This is the Marxist dream almost realized for a race! Obama's even talking up boarding schools which take (mostly Black) kids away from whatever families they have. Can you say creche?
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2010, 02:08 PM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Michelle give a whole new meaning to . . .

the immaculate conception.
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:33 PM
Salt Salt is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quoting Pampl: Is overt racism against a diavloguer acceptable now? Not every political position held by a Jewish person is a "scheme" (and that link doesn't support your claim anyways) and Goldberg "and her co-ethnics" don't have "boundless power in academe, journalism, Hollywood, law" nor are they "the richest and most powerful group in the country". They aren't even the richest and most powerful ethnic group.
Jews have had a fair shot in the US because Jew-haters such as yourself are in the margins.

Wow, you got alot of rhetorical mileage out of crusty's use of the word "scheme". But you didn't do much to disprove the facts, as such, which are patently obvious to anyone with eyes and ears. To me, there is no shame in success or even "boundless power . . .", unless it's accorded to whining hypocrites like Michelle. Besides, surely you haven't failed to notice Obama's indifference, if not hostility, to Israel. Wonder who he takes his cues from there? Wright? Farrakhan? Ayers? Stern?
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  #25  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:47 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Wow, you got alot of rhetorical mileage out of crusty's use of the word "scheme". But you didn't do much to disprove the facts, as such, which are patently obvious to anyone with eyes and ears. To me, there is no shame in success or even "boundless power . . .", unless it's accorded to whining hypocrites like Michelle. Besides, surely you haven't failed to notice Obama's indifference, if not hostility, to Israel. Wonder who he takes his cues from there? Wright? Farrakhan? Ayers? Stern?
If that word is the only part you're able to recognize as an anti-Jewish trope, than I envy your otherworldly naivete. The sad reality is that every lie he perpetuates (oops, I mean his "obvious" "facts") appear in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Nothing he wrote is new, or relevant, or factual. It's just tired Jew-hatred, and apparently you've fallen for it too.
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  #26  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:52 PM
dkschwartz
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

who would want to listen to this shit?

this should be titled WOMEN FIGHTING THE WAR AGAINST MARRIAGE AND CHILD-REARING
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  #27  
Old 05-17-2010, 04:56 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

It it just me, or has there been a serious influx in rightwing trolls recently?
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2010, 05:28 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Seems that way to me too. And without bjkeefe around, it falls to people willing to spend less time on Bloggingheads arguing with trolls to respond to them.
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2010, 05:49 PM
rcocean rcocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Seems that way to me too. And without bjkeefe around, it falls to people willing to spend less time on Bloggingheads arguing with trolls to respond to them.
Not sure what you mean Don, but ignoring Trolls is always the best strategy.
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2010, 06:11 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

I was trying to be tongue in cheek; I find long, thread-devouring arguments with trolls to be even more irritating than trolls themselves (not that I'm not guilty of responding to trolls myself. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.)
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  #31  
Old 05-17-2010, 05:58 PM
listener listener is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Seems that way to me too. And without bjkeefe around, it falls to people willing to spend less time on Bloggingheads arguing with trolls to respond to them.
I'm torn on this matter. On the one hand, it can be hard to see such posts go unanswered because they stir up such a visceral response in me. On the other hand, to a large extent, provoking such a response from other users is exactly the point of trolling posts, as described in the Wikipedia entry on the term:

Quote:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Hence the common phrase that has arisen, "Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation "DNFTT."

Though I personally for the most part subscribe to the DNFTT philosophy, I'm not trying to tell others what to do; I just want to bring up the possibility that responding to trolling posts can be a distraction from the reason most of us are here (i.e., serious and reasoned discussion) and may end up exacerbating the situation.

And there's always the "ignore list" option.
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Last edited by listener; 05-17-2010 at 06:04 PM..
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  #32  
Old 05-17-2010, 06:25 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default a time capsule diavlog?

what year was this conversation filmed!??

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/281...3:22&out=13:40
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  #33  
Old 05-17-2010, 07:58 PM
sharkdog sharkdog is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Of the various lies that have been thrown at W, the most pernicious and slimy is that he did nothing about New Orleans. There is a big difference between being overwhelmed by a problem and apathetic to it. I have no doubt whatsoever that it would have equally stumped Obama or Clinton. The media would have covered it way differently. They would have gone on and on about how, in spite of the president's best efforts, this terrible tragedy is wreaking such havoc. A large scale flood is one of the worst types of disasters. You have a huge area where the water is too deep for vehicles but too shallow for most boats. There was also an appalling lack of local response and local preparation. None of this was Bush's fault.
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  #34  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:31 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkdog View Post
Of the various lies that have been thrown at W, the most pernicious and slimy is that he did nothing about New Orleans. There is a big difference between being overwhelmed by a problem and apathetic to it. I have no doubt whatsoever that it would have equally stumped Obama or Clinton. The media would have covered it way differently. They would have gone on and on about how, in spite of the president's best efforts, this terrible tragedy is wreaking such havoc. A large scale flood is one of the worst types of disasters. You have a huge area where the water is too deep for vehicles but too shallow for most boats. There was also an appalling lack of local response and local preparation. None of this was Bush's fault.
"Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job!" I don't know how much of the blame they eventually took for that disaster they really deserved (but, there was certainly an aura of incompetence, so I wouldn't be particularly generous.) But, you don't need media bias to explain their problems.

(Also, people who assume that the media has an ideological bias have selective memories. Bush was the recipient of amazingly good press for years. Clinton was dogged by ugly coverage. To name a couple of relatively recent counterexamples.)
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  #35  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:01 PM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)



We can thank Michelle Goldberg and friends for the green line.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-2010, 08:42 PM
dankingbooks dankingbooks is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

Life is a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing.

Don't worry. Be Happy.

www.dankingbooks.com
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  #37  
Old 05-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is offline
 
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Default Re: Sex, Power, Happiness (Michelle Goldberg & Rebecca Traister)

You forgot "full of sound and fury"
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