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  #1  
Old 11-02-2010, 01:01 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default -$1,000,000,000,000

Good article on our trillion dollar deficit and its impact on ordinary Americans:


Quote:
The United States is now in the ninth year of the longest conflict in its history, fought by 150,000 troops on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq at a cost of more than $1 trillion. That is considerably more than the ultimate price of the much-debated Troubled Asset Relief Program, which bailed out automakers, banks and a handful of insurers.
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Last edited by Wonderment; 11-02-2010 at 01:26 AM..
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Good thing war is over in Iraq

110 dead, 280 wounded...

Quote:
Reporting from Baghdad —
Militants unleashed a wave of deadly attacks in Baghdad on Tuesday, killing at least 110 people in Shiite neighborhoods, authorities said, in an apparent bid to provoke a new sectarian war in the country.

At least 17 car bombs and other blasts shook the city at sunset in one of the bloodiest days this year. The coordinated attacks, which bore the hallmarks of the Sunni Arab militant group Al Qaeda in Iraq, came just 48 hours after 58 people died when armed men seized a Baghdad church.

"The new Qaeda has started its work again in Iraq," a senior Iraqi security commander warned, speaking on condition of anonymity. "The situation is very bad."
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  #3  
Old 11-02-2010, 05:47 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

That's a very weak argument in and of itself. WW2 was incredibly costly. Does that mean we shouldn't have fought it?
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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That's a very weak argument in and of itself.
Yet Republicans use it all the time to kill otherwise worthy projects.

Of course, no one is saying the ONLY reason not to go to war is the cost. The slaughter of human beings is the main reason not to wage war. Other reasons include the lack of justification for investing the lives and treasure.

As warfare goes, Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq was probably the worst military decision I've witnessed in my lifetime. There were other very stupid ones (Bay of Pigs, Grenada, Panama, etc.), but in terms of mass murder and criminal mayhem, Iraq was easily the worst.

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WW2 was incredibly costly. Does that mean we shouldn't have fought it?
Should have stayed out of that one too, but for other reasons.
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:16 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Yet Republicans use it all the time to kill otherwise worthy projects.
I consider removing a terrible dictator to be a worthy project. I don't consider projects that have been shown to fail in their objectives to be worthy.

Quote:
As warfare goes, Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq was probably the worst military decision I've witnessed in my lifetime. There were other very stupid ones (Bay of Pigs, Grenada, Panama, etc.), but in terms of mass murder and criminal mayhem, Iraq was easily the worst.
Iraq today is a fairly stable, democratic country. I think that's important to realize.

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Should have stayed out of that one too, but for other reasons.
So we should have let Hitler finish the annihilation of European Jews, Gypsies, etc.?
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:31 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Iraq today is a fairly stable, democratic country. I think that's important to realize.
how many people died in sectarian bombings in iraq this week? look it up and see if you still want to push that point.
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:33 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
how many people died in sectarian bombings in iraq this week? look it up and see if you still want to push that point.
Also, have they managed to seat a government yet?
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:34 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
how many people died in sectarian bombings in iraq this week? look it up and see if you still want to push that point.
I'm not saying Iraq is perfect, or even that it's as stable as say the UAE. But it is, compared to what it was, stable, and it is, overall, improving. There's little reason to think it will go backwards.
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  #9  
Old 11-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Iraq today is a fairly stable, democratic country. I think that's important to realize.
Just to recap, Iraq is fairly stable and democratic, Singapore is relatively free, and France will probably not be a democracy in 20 years. Rather than continue to argue about this, how about we place a little wager? The terms are that if Iraq is higher than France on the Freedom in the World index in 2030, you win. If not, I win. I'll let you set whatever stakes and odds you think are reasonable.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2010, 08:13 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Just to recap, Iraq is fairly stable and democratic,
Compared to what it is, and also compared to some other countries in the region.

Quote:
Singapore is relatively free,
I absolutely stand by this one.

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and France will probably not be a democracy in 20 years.
I didn't say that. I said that it's possible, and that it's more possible there than in Sweden.

Quote:
Rather than continue to argue about this, how about we place a little wager? The terms are that if Iraq is higher than France on the Freedom in the World index in 2030, you win. If not, I win. I'll let you set whatever stakes and odds you think are reasonable.
Well if you adjust that measure a bit I might just take you up in that, because I could always go for a good steak dinner in 20 years.

But I might be in Singapore by then
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  #11  
Old 11-02-2010, 08:21 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Well if you adjust that measure a bit I might just take you up in that, because I could always go for a good steak dinner in 20 years.

But I might be in Singapore by then
Do you want better odds, or are you going to insist that we go by the Heritage Foundation's economic freedom index?
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  #12  
Old 11-02-2010, 08:23 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Do you want better odds, or are you going to insist that we go by the Heritage Foundation's economic freedom index?
I would want slightly different numbers--eg that France will be lower, that Iraq will be at least 4,4; etc.

While I like Freedom House overall, I don't think they actually do a very good job of accounting for the type of repression that is very common in Europe--restrictions on speech, party formations, etc.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2010, 12:30 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
There's little reason to think
but there is, op. you should try it sometime!

; )
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2010, 06:52 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: -$1,000,000,000,000

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Originally Posted by popcorn_karate View Post
but there is, op. you should try it sometime!

; )
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