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  #121  
Old 05-19-2011, 04:12 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by thouartgob View Post
I wasn't aware but I am frequently facetious however. There has been quite a bit of commentary here I haven't got see yet but I will post something now.

I am really criticizing True Believers like Rand Paul/Paul Ryan ( funny how they fit together that way ) going after medicare etc when all those seniors who won't be able to afford insurance will be swamping emergency rooms.
OK, I get it now. That got lost in my translation of what you said.
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  #122  
Old 05-19-2011, 04:21 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Heh. The (well, one...) problem with market fundamentalists is that they confuse what's good for the system itself with what's good for the individuals comprising the system. They fall in love with abstractions and succumb to a belief that optimizing for a few proxies ("efficiency") gets us to paradise. And they're suckers for fallacies. In the "everything must be owned" fantasy, either you need to change to meaning of "ownership" to include loops (I own you and you own me simultaneously) or it's trivially paradoxical. But that doesn't stop them from chasing unicorns all the way to "medical care for the poor is theft of services."
A point warrants mentioning:
There is a (very) small percentage of people for whom the market system will not function. We're talking about people with ALS, children born with severe defects, etc. It is in keeping with the philosophy of Hayek and others in his line of thought to have the government provide some level of assistance for these people. The purpose of the state is to ensure that society has the legal and security structure for the dynamics of the organic market to function. There are inevitably some goods that the state must provide, such as (most) roads, where the utility can not be dispersed to the individual level.

So you're arguing against anarcho-capitalism, which I am not proposing.
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  #123  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:17 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Any honest grown up knows that sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made and I'm no fan of Sarah Palin. Rationed care for the elderly was not my big objection to Obamacare and what does 'rationed care' even mean? Maybe you can refer me to where Ryan said this:
"we're going to cut costs by having vouchers grow far more slowly than health care/insurance costs have ever grown"
Of course he doesn't say that directly. But his plan explicitly calls for growth in vouchers to be tied to inflation, which is lower than the rate of growth in health insurance costs.
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  #124  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:22 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
A point warrants mentioning:
There is a (very) small percentage of people for whom the market system will not function.
Actually, this proposition is a big part of the underlying views that influence this debate. The size of the group of people for whom the market system will not function in terms of health care is exactly what is (implicitly) under question.

You think it's a very small percentage.

I think it's probably 15-20 percent of people under 60 and close to 100 percent of people over 60.

of course, it depends on what you mean by "work", which is probably another area of debate, but one that lends itself to ruthless characterizations on both sides.

it is hard for me to see how the standard Ryan-type plan doesn't implicitly define "work" as "those too stupid and/or lazy to have huge savings when they are elderly will get weeded out". But I can understand why you would object to this characterization.

Just as I object to the characterization of the liberal side defining "work" as "grind the successful into socialist gruel to be fed to the indigent" or whatever Rush is saying today.
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  #125  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:36 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

Brawk!

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... Hayek ...
Brawk!
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  #126  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:38 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Of course he doesn't say that directly. But his plan explicitly calls for growth in vouchers to be tied to inflation, which is lower than the rate of growth in health insurance costs.
Here is an opinion to the contrary. The whole point is to let market pressure work. This doesn't exist in the current system, which is one of the reasons inflation of prices is occuring. Also, I remind you medicare is going broke. The least that's what these guys say.

Quote:
But what about seniors? Would they be left behind as health inflation outpaced their vouchers? I think there are good reasons to believe that vouchers would help keep medical costs in check by introducing some much-needed price signals into the marketplace for medical care: Under the current state of affairs, neither health care consumers nor providers have any incentive to think about costs. In a voucher system, by contrast, individuals would shop for plans and services that fit their needs. Providers would factor cost into their service offerings. Competition would revolve around providing the best service for the least money. Insurers, meanwhile, would work with providers to build plans that remained affordable over the years—and would likely build their plans around the dollar amount provided by the voucher. If anything, this is a negative aspect of a voucher system: Health plan innovation would likely be driven by the politically determined value of the voucher.
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  #127  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:08 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Actually, this proposition is a big part of the underlying views that influence this debate. The size of the group of people for whom the market system will not function in terms of health care is exactly what is (implicitly) under question.

You think it's a very small percentage.

I think it's probably 15-20 percent of people under 60 and close to 100 percent of people over 60.

of course, it depends on what you mean by "work", which is probably another area of debate, but one that lends itself to ruthless characterizations on both sides.

it is hard for me to see how the standard Ryan-type plan doesn't implicitly define "work" as "those too stupid and/or lazy to have huge savings when they are elderly will get weeded out". But I can understand why you would object to this characterization.

Just as I object to the characterization of the liberal side defining "work" as "grind the successful into socialist gruel to be fed to the indigent" or whatever Rush is saying today.
That means though that we may agree on what may come close to the ideal system (I would say Switzerland), with the debate being over more of the finer details rather than the overall philosophy--permitting the market to work for most people and having the state assist in cases where the market can not realistically provide is different than the UK/Canadian model of having the state determine health care spending through central planning.
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  #128  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:12 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
That means though that we may agree on what may come close to the ideal system (I would say Switzerland), with the debate being over more of the finer details rather than the overall philosophy--permitting the market to work for most people and having the state assist in cases where the market can not realistically provide is different than the UK/Canadian model of having the state determine health care spending through central planning.
Well, let's not get too optimistic about our level of agreement. I think that the fact that literally everyone in America, assuming they don't die first, will someday reach the age of 60, would suggest that I don't think the system will work for most people.

But I agree with you that the Estonian health care system looks like a pretty good setup.

:-)
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  #129  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:19 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

here's a *tea party* ad for that congressional special election in NY. What is striking is that the ad specifically acknowledges the problem that comes with tying employment to health care in the way that our current system does (and Obamacare doesn't).

Sure, his conclusion is to 'not ship jobs to China', and that's all well and good, but the implication about health care remains (what if jobs are shipped to akron intead of china?):

http://youtu.be/26vkymyehPs
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  #130  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:27 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
That means though that we may agree on what may come close to the ideal system (I would say Switzerland), with the debate being over more of the finer details rather than the overall philosophy--permitting the market to work for most people and having the state assist in cases where the market can not realistically provide is different than the UK/Canadian model of having the state determine health care spending through central planning.
Why have we/I not heard of this? Thanks for pointing it out.
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  #131  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:36 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Why have we/I not heard of this? Thanks for pointing it out.
One of the important differences between what the Swiss do and what I would propose is that I do not accept the notion of a mandate. They do however have some core principles correct: promote the private market, and make it an individual decision, as opposed to the antiquated employer-provided model that we still cling to.
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  #132  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:17 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
One of the important differences between what the Swiss do and what I would propose is that I do not accept the notion of a mandate. They do however have some core principles correct: promote the private market, and make it an individual decision, as opposed to the antiquated employer-provided model that we still cling to.
I have always imagined that the use of HSA's could make a big difference. Because I don't have an employer provided policy I use a catastrophic policy and I shop.

I don't see how the Swiss scheme will work without the mandate.

Have you heard about the Kagan kerfuffle
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  #133  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:26 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I have always imagined that the use of HSA's could make a big difference. Because I don't have an employer provided policy I use a catastrophic policy and I shop.

I don't see how the Swiss scheme will work without the mandate.
There is the issue of free riders but honestly I can't imagine this constituting any sizable number of people. Most people desire to have health insurance, and those that don't tend to be younger and not in need of it.

Quote:
Have you heard about the Kagan kerfuffle
Yeah, now if only she'd do the ethical thing and recuse herself when the case comes before the court.
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  #134  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:32 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
...permitting the market to work for most people and having the state assist in cases where the market can not realistically provide is different than the UK/Canadian model of having the state determine health care spending through central planning.
I like the Conor Friedersdorf idea of having a true universal healthcare for everyone until age 18. It's the best ROI for government because each life saved is taxable for life. It avoids the costliest and least useful care, i.e., the elderly defying nature. And it's a good compromise by socializing what is, or should be, the dearest thing to all of us: children.

Or, alternatively, we can go on pretending that money grows on trees or that resources are unlimited and all our problems would be solved if rich people stopped being so greedy. And when can I segue into the problem being racism and structural impediments?
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  #135  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:45 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I like the Conor Friedersdorf idea of having a true universal healthcare for everyone until age 18. It's the best ROI for government because each life saved is taxable for life. It avoids the costliest and least useful care, i.e., the elderly defying nature. And it's a good compromise by socializing what is, or should be, the dearest thing to all of us: children.
Yeah, I think that ensuring that there's something approaching universal coverage for children is reasonable. Health care coverage for kids is a much better project than food stamps and public housing.
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  #136  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:58 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I don't see how the Swiss scheme will work without the mandate.
On this we agree. I think if one wants some form of universal care (or universal availability), AND preserve a private market element at all, it's hard to imagine how it would work without some kind of mandate.
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  #137  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:59 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
Most people desire to have health insurance, and those that don't tend to be younger and not in need of it.
Nobody (and I mean, nobody) wants health insurance until they need it.
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  #138  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:06 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
There's way to monitor that

Bear in mind we already have similar programs though generally not hospital-specific: people routinely receive sentences of community service. This would be a community service sentence but a very specific one. If one were thoroughly unwilling to work at the hospital, they could perform service at some other institution which would then pay the hospital the wage value.
We routinely assign sentences of community service to criminals, not debtors.
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  #139  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:15 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
There is the issue of free riders but honestly I can't imagine this constituting any sizable number of people. Most people desire to have health insurance, and those that don't tend to be younger and not in need of it.



Yeah, now if only she'd do the ethical thing and recuse herself when the case comes before the court.
Just in case you are unaware, Peter Suderman does a nice job exploring all things relating to ACA and medicare. Here's a new article I found telling. Central planning, you gotta love it unless the people who actually know stuff don't want to play. More waivers?

Quote:
Proposed regulations intended to save money by encouraging greater coordination of care amongst health providers have instead been rejected by the organizations that first inspired the idea.
Quote:
The Cleveland Clinic has indicated that the proposed rules would put significant barriers in the way of their current (model!) care practices. And a representative from Geisinger said that the organization has "a large number of concerns" with the proposed regs: "A lot of the detail-level work is problematic. It seems to be very prescriptive and restrictive with a fair amount of administrative and regulatory oversight."
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  #140  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:19 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
We routinely assign sentences of community service to criminals, not debtors.
hey! hope and change.
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  #141  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:09 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
here's what an alternative to ACA looks like. This is just for the month of April!

Imagine the Republicans thinking they can do better!
It looks like a ginned up nontroversy, huh?

Quote:
Pretty remarkable Fox News segment a few minutes ago between Martha MacCallum and Monica Crowley. In a piece about Fox's latest 24/7 obsession they announced that 20% of all healthcare waivers had gone to Nancy Pelosi's district! And they were all going to high-end steakhouses! They're exempt from the healthcare reform law even though Pelosi was one of its biggest supporters! And this was all obviously due to political pressure from Pelosi's office!

OK, not so remarkable, I guess. But for the record: it was 20% in the month of April only, mainly because a benefits servicing company that does a lot of work in California submitted a whole bunch of waiver applications at once. And it's not because San Francisco steakhouses are freeloading, it's just the opposite: it's because a San Francisco ordinance requires companies to provide healthcare, which means more of them need waivers for their plans than in most places. And they're not exempt from healthcare reform, they're just getting a waiver through 2013, something that was anticipated by the law. (The idea was that inadequate coverage would be taken care of when the law fully kicks in in 2014, but until then even inadequate coverage is better than nothing.) And none of this came within miles of Pelosi's office. It's all just wending its way through the ordinary federal bureaucracy.
For the record, I'm going to put any future Daily Caller stories in the same mental file folder as I would press releases from Dick Cheney or the on-air claims of Karl Rove, i.e. propoganda that should not be taken even remotely seriously unless verified by several real news sources first.

Last edited by Don Zeko; 05-20-2011 at 01:11 AM..
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  #142  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:16 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
yeah, tax the rich. That'll solve everything.
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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Here's the thing. We are becoming a country of people who don't want to bear the responsibility for our actions, our families which we chose to produce or our lives. We think it is up to others to provide for us. We don't care who has to sacrifice to do it or how much it costs. It is our right as human beings.

That this will eventually crash the system, destroy the quality of the system for everyone else and decimate the character of our country is no concern to us. It's our right and we demand it.

We are a foodstamp nation.
Shorter Badhat: If at first you don't succeed, change the subject and hope nobody notices.
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  #143  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:19 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
One of the important differences between what the Swiss do and what I would propose is that I do not accept the notion of a mandate. They do however have some core principles correct: promote the private market, and make it an individual decision, as opposed to the antiquated employer-provided model that we still cling to.
Wait, don't you like the Ryan Plan?
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  #144  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:21 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Yeah, I think that ensuring that there's something approaching universal coverage for children is reasonable. Health care coverage for kids is a much better project than food stamps and public housing.
What's wrong with Food Stamps? I mean, I would get it if you were arguing that they were too generous or should be more sharply means-tested or something, but food ought to be the least objectionable part of the safety net.
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  #145  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:29 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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But in the open market, we have the ability to shop for different insurers who will give us different options. In the Statist model, there are no options--you get what the State gives you.
NO NO NO NO NO!!! Seriously Op, you give all sorts of other signs of being at least moderately intelligent, and then you say things like this. No plan that has ever been proposed in the United States would prevent people from paying for whatever advanced treatment of questionable utility they want with their own money. In almost every country with a universal system*, people are still free to buy their own private insurance or private care outside of the system. Nobody is proposing anything that would prevent you from doing this.

So when you characterize proposals that would make the government stop paying for a particular type of care as proposals that would forbid people from purchasing that type of care, you're lying. Nobody has done that, nobody wants to do that, it'll never happen.

*Canada being the exception.
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  #146  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:56 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
It looks like a ginned up nontroversy, huh?



For the record, I'm going to put any future Daily Caller stories in the same mental file folder as I would press releases from Dick Cheney or the on-air claims of Karl Rove, i.e. propoganda that should not be taken even remotely seriously unless verified by several real news sources first.
Thank you, Zeke, for the clarification. It's amazing how much crap people are willing to make up in order to score a political point.

One way or the other, the basic misunderstanding about how the population covered by Medicare is radically different in "risk" from the rest of the population is still rampant. Our local right wing commentors prefer to change the topic and bring up some unrelated lies they read somewhere.
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  #147  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:58 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Shorter Badhat: If at first you don't succeed, change the subject and hope nobody notices.
Yep, that's exactly how it goes. Or post some ugly nauseating picture when all else fails.
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  #148  
Old 05-20-2011, 10:31 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

Chalk this one up to unintended consequences of government interference in the marketplace in the first place. One has to thank FDR and the National War Labor Board, created by executive order, that we owe this antiquated model of providing health care.
Quote:
As a result of wage restrictions, employers who needed to attract labor resorted to providing a growing range of fringe benefits, such as pensions, medical insurance, and paid holidays and vacations. These benefits were considered non-inflationary, as they were not paid in cash and, thus, did not violate the wage ceiling. Additionally, payments for overtime afforded extra income to workers, without violating the limits on hourly wage payments. During the late 1940s, fringe benefits became more common as part of settlements reached in collective bargaining
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  #149  
Old 05-20-2011, 10:37 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
What's wrong with Food Stamps? I mean, I would get it if you were arguing that they were too generous or should be more sharply means-tested or something, but food ought to be the least objectionable part of the safety net.
They are subject to rampant abuse and they alter the payoff to having kids--kids become a source of revenue from the state, as the more you have, the more food stamps you get. And they're pointless; the market will provide fine for people. Food stamps are part of the reason for the breakdown of the inner city family.
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  #150  
Old 05-20-2011, 10:48 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
It looks like a ginned up nontroversy, huh?
Well of course the right is going to make hay with this. That's what everyone does these days. So you can't single out the Daily Caller for any criticism you wouldn't have to give, say, Mother Jones.

But the main point is that the Congress, made up of a majority of Democrats and the president, passed this revolutionary bill which was going to change the health care system for the better for every American. WOW!
Then we find out that there are 1370 waivers which exempt over 3 million people from this marvellous miracle and a lot of the original enthusiasts are backing away now that they see what's in it and how it affects their corner of the world.

I agree that using Pelosi* is incendiary, but the larger point is if this plan is so wonderful why are waivers needed at all. Answer: because maybe it's not and it's mad to think that people won't be questioning the hell out of it.

*maybe they should have mentioned Harry Reid.
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  #151  
Old 05-20-2011, 10:54 AM
Jon Jon is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

Ann's comment about when the "mainstream media" uses particular stories has to stand the Occum's razor of the alternative hypothesis that the media holds stories the way farmers hold back commodities, which is until they think they will fetch the best price. Most stories don't "grow in their hand", they spoil easily and exclusive stories are prized. The commercial media are profits oriented and they hold stories and release them in the anticipation that they will maximize the interest in those stories. So, for newspapers, it's maximum circulation, for video, it's maximum ratings. It's no co-incidence then that stories about politicians have maximum interest right around their election cycle. It's false to assume that their are extreme motives to run or kill a story based on political agendas of most commercial news media. It's only those media outlets that boast a lock on ideological segments of the population that can afford to slant the news that way. And that happens throughout the political and ideological spectrum. We all know who they are and take that into account.
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  #152  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:13 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Chalk this one up to unintended consequences of government interference in the marketplace in the first place. One has to thank FDR and the National War Labor Board, created by executive order, that we owe this antiquated model of providing health care.
Tax the benefits!!
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  #153  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:14 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Shorter Badhat: If at first you don't succeed, change the subject and hope nobody notices.
How did I change the subject?
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  #154  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:16 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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We all know who they are and take that into account.
I hope that is true.

PS. I think this article (which I posted above) is a good example of unbiased journalism.
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  #155  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:18 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Yep, that's exactly how it goes. Or post some ugly nauseating picture when all else fails.
Do I offend your sensibilities?

Funny how you are so tolerant of others.
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  #156  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:30 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
they alter the payoff to having kids--kids become a source of revenue from the state, as the more you have, the more food stamps you get. And they're pointless; the market will provide fine for people. Food stamps are part of the reason for the breakdown of the inner city family.
As to the motivation to have kids, I fail to see how child tax credits are any different than food stamps.

As to the market providing for people, I have a lot of problems with how WIC and the like programs are administered, but this "market will provide" stuff doesn't at all address the problems that WIC addresses.

You're a three year old whose mother has mental illness and can't get a job. How, exactly, does the market provide you with food?
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  #157  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:46 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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As to the market providing for people, I have a lot of problems with how WIC and the like programs are administered, but this "market will provide" stuff doesn't at all address the problems that WIC addresses.

You're a three year old whose mother has mental illness and can't get a job. How, exactly, does the market provide you with food?
Some say that charity is a better system with which to provide for the poor. I really don't know if that's true but the rationale is that when one receives stuff from someone with a face instead of a faceless government check, one has a sense of obligation which can be a good thing. There may be less cheating and also there may be a system whereby the recipient is encouraged to fend for themselves in what way they can.

WIC is an amazing program. When I knew people on it they said there was no means test and if you could stomach going to a grocery store and presenting the voucher, you could get the milk and cheese for free no matter how much you made. Yikes!
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  #158  
Old 05-20-2011, 11:55 AM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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As to the motivation to have kids, I fail to see how child tax credits are any different than food stamps.
Tax credits go to everyone; they are not targeted at people who probably shouldn't be having children. There's actually an argument to be had for a regressive tax credit, but I'm not a subscriber. I don't think we should be encouraging people who do not have the means (or, likely, the aptitude) to properly raise a child to have more children.

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As to the market providing for people, I have a lot of problems with how WIC and the like programs are administered, but this "market will provide" stuff doesn't at all address the problems that WIC addresses.
Where the market doesn't, I am very convinced that private charity will.

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You're a three year old whose mother has mental illness and can't get a job. How, exactly, does the market provide you with food?
In that instance wouldn't it be much better if the mother gave up the child for adoption? Food stamps merely address one facet of the mother's failure to provide proper parenting. So, if you remove the state-created incentives to have and keep the kid, subjecting the child to a terrible childhood, you actually improve the life of the child.
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  #159  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:09 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
When I knew people on it they said there was no means test and if you could stomach going to a grocery store and presenting the voucher, you could get the milk and cheese for free no matter how much you made. Yikes!
That's very strange. WIC explicitly has an income requirement (no more than 185% of poverty), so I don't understand what they meant by "no means test" unless they meant "lying about your income."
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:10 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by operative View Post
In that instance wouldn't it be much better if the mother gave up the child for adoption? Food stamps merely address one facet of the mother's failure to provide proper parenting. So, if you remove the state-created incentives to have and keep the kid, subjecting the child to a terrible childhood, you actually improve the life of the child.
Holy Handmaid's Tale!
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