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  #1  
Old 05-18-2011, 09:51 AM
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Default The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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  #2  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:07 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

Good conversation.
I have always despised Schwarzenegger. He had no interest in being a good governor but only wanted another kind of power and more prestige. That was clear during the campaign and became clearer as time went on. Since I backed a real candidate, Tom McClintock, I was doubly disappointed. It was also at this time that I realized the Republican party has no soul because they backed Arnold. California and our country are poorer for people like him. Where the hell are the good guys??

I read Matt's article about DSK which was really about Bernard Henri-Levy, the French philosopher. How does one get that title? My favorite quote about Levy was from Marianne Pearl who described him as a man whose intelligence is destroyed by his own ego.

again where are the good guys??

I've seen Levy on Charlie Rose. I think I've also seen Schwarzenegger on Charlie Rose. Maybe this is all Charlie Rose's fault.

I thought the discussion about the difference between French and American women was fascinating. French women are tougher but tolerate ass-grabbing while American women are wimps and don't.

As for government buildings, my libertarian political science teacher thought they should all be built of cinder block.

Thought of the day: Google is not God.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:47 AM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
I read Matt's article about DSK which was really about Bernard Henri-Levy, the French philosopher. How does one get that title? My favorite quote about Levy was from Marianne Pearl who described him as a man whose intelligence is destroyed by his own ego.
Did you read BHL's article as well? Matt didn't understand what BHL meant when he said the American system of justice is "accusatory." He was pointing to a well-known difference between the American and the French systems of justice, and the role of the "juge d'instruction," a judge who intervenes immediately after an arrest to conduct a preliminary investigation--examining both the evidence "à charge" (accusatory) and the evidence "à décharge" (disculpatory)---before making a recommendation to the "procureur" (state prosecutor), something like the District Attorney, on what legal action needs to be taken. The media circus, perp walk etc. could never occur in France, or can only occur after the juge d'instruction rules. The juge d'instruction, if you like, is a kind of grand jury, but without the jury. Perhaps Matt should ask his French wife about this...

As for BHL, yes he is an egomaniac, but I see nothing wrong in speaking up for the character of a friend and denouncing a rush to judgment before there is a trial.

Quote:
I thought the discussion about the difference between French and American women was fascinating. French women are tougher but tolerate ass-grabbing while American women are wimps and don't.
Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing. Maybe I am too near-sighted.... or too far-sighted. Or maybe Matt is just repeating the platitudes of yesteryear. As for his other platitude---that all French politicians are macho boors whose extramarital escapades the press ignores---all I can say is, so what? Besides, when you are familiar with the average French politician, the accusation seems almost ludicrous.

Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2011 at 12:40 PM..
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  #4  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:22 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
He was pointing to a well-known difference between the American and the French systems of justice, and the role of the "juge d'instruction," a judge who intervenes immediately after an arrest to conduct a preliminary investigation--examining both the evidence "à charge" (accusatory) and the evidence "à décharge" (disculpatory)---before making a recommendation to the "procureur" (state prosecutor), something like the District Attorney, on what legal action needs to be taken.
I think in America, that is the grand jury's role.

ooops, as you say below. So BHL should respect our backward ways.

Quote:
As for BHL, yes he is an egomaniac, but I see nothing wrong in speaking up for the character of a friend and denouncing a rush to judgment before there is a trial.
Nothing wrong at all and nothing wrong with criticizing it. An egomaniac often gets that reaction to his pronouncements. The reaction to this DSK's alleged malfeasance is the same as the reaction would be to anyone in high office. People love to see the mighty brought low, especially in America. It's sport.

Quote:
Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing.
It may be subtle ass grabbing.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 05-18-2011 at 01:32 PM..
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  #5  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:22 PM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing. Maybe I am too near-sighted.... or too far-sighted.

Plenty of groping on the Tokyo subways and trains, about 99% of it involuntary. (i.e., The Big Squeeze)
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  #6  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Plenty of groping on the Tokyo subways and trains, about 99% of it involuntary. (i.e., The Big Squeeze)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-X6dC2yrUc
?
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  #7  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:27 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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resourceful people, those Japanese.
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:45 PM
rfrobison rfrobison is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Fortunately, I have only rarely had to ride the train when it was as crowded as in that video. Smart commuters ride off-peak!
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  #9  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Curious, I have been riding the Paris metro for many years and I have rarely witnessed ass-grabbing. Maybe I am too near-sighted.... or too far-sighted. Or maybe Matt is just repeating the platitudes of yesteryear. As for his other platitude---that all French politicians are macho boors whose extramarital escapades the press ignores---all I can say is, so what? Besides, when you are familiar with the average French politician, the accusation seems almost ludicrous.
About five year ago my niece was crotch-grabbed on a Paris bus. She was on a high school field trip.
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  #10  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:18 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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About five year ago my niece was crotch-grabbed on a Paris bus. She was on a high school field trip.
My sincere apologies to your niece.
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  #11  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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My sincere apologies to your niece.
Merci, monsieur.
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  #12  
Old 05-21-2011, 10:35 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
[...] I have always despised Schwarzenegger. [...]

I've seen Levy on Charlie Rose. I think I've also seen Schwarzenegger on Charlie Rose. Maybe this is all Charlie Rose's fault.
On a related note, blog post title of the week:

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Arnold Turned Right-Wingers French
(No More Mister Nice Blog via Roy Edroso)
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2011, 12:23 PM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Not working by law

Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way.
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  #14  
Old 05-18-2011, 12:43 PM
Ann Althouse Ann Althouse is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

"Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way."

You're like a French woman riding the Metro to get her ass grabbed.
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  #15  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:14 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

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"Ann is her own troll. I go to her to get rubbed the wrong way."

You're like a French woman riding the Metro to get her ass grabbed.
ha
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2011, 02:37 AM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: The Freedom Cage (Ann Althouse & Matt Welch)

Well played.
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  #17  
Old 05-18-2011, 02:05 PM
thouartgob thouartgob is offline
 
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Default The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.
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  #18  
Old 05-18-2011, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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It is a bit cowardly for those who rail against any version of healthcare universality not to attack the source of all these problems, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 that FORCES hospitals and their enslaved employees to treat people regardless of payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act

This is a classic Moral Hazard argument hasn't been addressed at all. Market Forces should be available to deal with any issues in verification of insurance or sanctions against non-payment.
Verification of insurance isn't viable when minutes and even seconds separate life and death. Non-payment, however, is certainly an issue that can be addressed (and often is). I'd favor compelling a person to do work for a hospital to which they are indebted. Hospitals are always looking for volunteers, so people who are unable to pay could simply be 'volunteered'.
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:44 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Verification of insurance isn't viable when minutes and even seconds separate life and death. Non-payment, however, is certainly an issue that can be addressed (and often is). I'd favor compelling a person to do work for a hospital to which they are indebted. Hospitals are always looking for volunteers, so people who are unable to pay could simply be 'volunteered'.
Would you want such a person (i.e., one who is compelled, rather than paid, to work at the hospital) to be part of your care, if you were hospitalized?
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  #20  
Old 05-18-2011, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Would you want such a person (i.e., one who is compelled, rather than paid, to work at the hospital) to be part of your care, if you were hospitalized?
I'm not talking about having them work as actual health care providers. There are plenty of non-medical related areas of work in bigger hospitals--gift shops, food service, front desk help, etc.
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  #21  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:53 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.
There's way to monitor that

Bear in mind we already have similar programs though generally not hospital-specific: people routinely receive sentences of community service. This would be a community service sentence but a very specific one. If one were thoroughly unwilling to work at the hospital, they could perform service at some other institution which would then pay the hospital the wage value.
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  #23  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:06 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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There's way to monitor that

Bear in mind we already have similar programs though generally not hospital-specific: people routinely receive sentences of community service. This would be a community service sentence but a very specific one. If one were thoroughly unwilling to work at the hospital, they could perform service at some other institution which would then pay the hospital the wage value.
We routinely assign sentences of community service to criminals, not debtors.
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  #24  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:19 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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We routinely assign sentences of community service to criminals, not debtors.
hey! hope and change.
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  #25  
Old 05-18-2011, 04:58 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Yeah, that is what I had in mind. I shudder to think about someone nonvoluntarily providing food service, for example.
Just call it involuntary servitude and think about what implies about being sick when you can't afford to be. It's an an idea either too dumb or too disgusting to consider very carefully. (Both, I think.)
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  #26  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Just call it involuntary servitude
Or community service, a widely used sentencing technique.

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and think about what implies about being sick when you can't afford to be.
It implies that there's a way to have what you need, in a viable market system, as opposed to falling into the trap of central planning.
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  #27  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:09 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Or community service, a widely used sentencing technique.



It implies that there's a way to have what you need, in a viable market system, as opposed to falling into the trap of central planning.
Sentencing for... being sick without sufficient income? Is that a statutory violation?
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  #28  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Sentencing for... being sick without sufficient income? Is that a statutory violation?
Sentencing for making use of someone's labor without the ability to pay for it.
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  #29  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:59 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Sentencing for making use of someone's labor without the ability to pay for it.
I have one word for you: children.

And a more general point. the most costly in terms of health care expenditures are the elderly, especially those who are near the end of life and will never wake up (a LOT of end life care is done on people who are essentially in comas).
Not sure how one will squeeze some community service out of them (in the world in which Ryan's plan is in effect, and they've already burned through their happy meal health care vouchers). Or would you beat the bushes for their relatives and have the relatives do community service, essentially punishing them for the decision made by their elderly parents, or the decision made by the doctors treating their unconscious elderly parents?
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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I have one word for you: children.
I'm talking about adults, not children.

Quote:
And a more general point. the most costly in terms of health care expenditures are the elderly, especially those who are near the end of life and will never wake up (a LOT of end life care is done on people who are essentially in comas).
Not sure how one will squeeze some community service out of them (in the world in which Ryan's plan is in effect, and they've already burned through their happy meal health care vouchers). Or would you beat the bushes for their relatives and have the relatives do community service, essentially punishing them for the decision made by their elderly parents, or the decision made by the doctors treating their unconscious elderly parents?
Here's a better way: in cases where they are hooked up to machines and aren't going to recover, give the family a little bit of time and then an ultimatum: either the family pays to continue to keep the person on the machines or the person comes off the machines.
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  #31  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:07 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Here's a better way: in cases where they are hooked up to machines and aren't going to recover, give the family a little bit of time and then an ultimatum: either the family pays to continue to keep the person on the machines or the person comes off the machines.
Wasn't your party the one that was all hepped up about Terri Schiavo and more recently about supposed death panels?
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Wasn't your party the one that was all hepped up about Terri Schiavo and more recently about supposed death panels?
Ah, the truth! There's no way that the current Ryan Holocaust Plan can be defended without flip flopping on the death panel accusation. But, there won't be an acknowledgment that that's the case. So far, I haven't seen anyone from the Republican side honestly calling it as it is.
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  #33  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:21 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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I have one word for you: children.

And a more general point. the most costly in terms of health care expenditures are the elderly, especially those who are near the end of life and will never wake up (a LOT of end life care is done on people who are essentially in comas).
Not sure how one will squeeze some community service out of them (in the world in which Ryan's plan is in effect, and they've already burned through their happy meal health care vouchers). Or would you beat the bushes for their relatives and have the relatives do community service, essentially punishing them for the decision made by their elderly parents, or the decision made by the doctors treating their unconscious elderly parents?
You don't seem to know much about end of life care.
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  #34  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:02 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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You don't seem to know much about end of life care.
I know a lot about end of life care. What makes you say that?
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  #35  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:32 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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I know a lot about end of life care. What makes you say that?
Well I know a lot about it too. What kind of care do the elderly in a coma require?

And as for the happy meal vouchers... That's a $15,000 health care insurance plan, not $15,000 cash.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:53 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Well I know a lot about it too. What kind of care do the elderly in a coma require?

And as for the happy meal vouchers... That's a $15,000 health care insurance plan, not $15,000 cash.
the amount of care elderly in a coma require varies a great deal, depending on what put them in a coma. At the very least, they require a bed and monitoring, but a great deal of (say) neurosurgery time is spent performing "emergency" surgery on patient who will never regain consciousness, because their relatives cannot be located* or want heroic means to be used.

As to the vouchers, yes, a 15K insurance plan, for the elderly. No private insurer is going to offer anything but the most modest plan for such a price, to even a healthy elderly person with no pre-existing conditions, and in the case of those plans, I find it hard to beleive that the deductible will be anywhere in the window of plausibilty for the elderly. Let alone the coverage limits.


* this is the key problem for a "theft of service" approach to health care.
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  #37  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:14 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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the amount of care elderly in a coma require varies a great deal, depending on what put them in a coma. At the very least, they require a bed and monitoring, but a great deal of (say) neurosurgery time is spent performing "emergency" surgery on patient who will never regain consciousness, because their relatives cannot be located* or want heroic means to be used.
This is rare and so shouldn't be used as an example. I doubt a neurosurgeon is on the list of medicare approved physicians for a coma patient

Quote:
As to the vouchers, yes, a 15K insurance plan, for the elderly. No private insurer is going to offer anything but the most modest plan for such a price, to even a healthy elderly person with no pre-existing conditions, and in the case of those plans, I find it hard to beleive that the deductible will be anywhere in the window of plausibilty for the elderly. Let alone the coverage limits.
You have absolutely no proof of this assertion,No private insurer is going to offer anything but the most modest plan for such a price except the old 'evil insurance company' trope. These companies will have a huge population with which to manage their risks. They will also risk elimination from the program or risk not being chosen if they don't offer good plans. And pre-existing conditions will not be allowed as a disqualifier.
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  #38  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:19 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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This is rare and so shouldn't be used as an example. I doubt a neurosurgeon is on the list of medicare approved physicians for a coma patient



You have absolutely no proof of this assertion,No private insurer is going to offer anything but the most modest plan for such a price except the old 'evil insurance company' trope. These companies will have a huge population with which to manage their risks. They will also risk elimination from the program or risk not being chosen if they don't offer good plans. And pre-existing conditions will not be allowed as a disqualifier.
I thought you've been reading up on econ recently, harry. Of course that's true. Treating the maladies of the elderly is not an ideal model for a profitable business plan. The way they'd make it work for them is to price most people out of the market.
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  #39  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:24 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

Yeah, it doesn't presume evilness on the part of insurance companies, just a focus on profits and losses, which is the function of such companies.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:32 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: The Rand Paul "slavery" argument should really be used against EMTALA

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Yeah, it doesn't presume evilness on the part of insurance companies, just a focus on profits and losses, which is the function of such companies.
Profits and losses are a part of making a system efficient. I realize there are special issues with health care which make free market solutions problematic but when you entirely throw out those incentives you get what we have now in Medicare. It's going broke and taxing the rich isn't going to save it.

And finally, I am not wedded to the Ryan plan. But Medicare needs to be fixed and his is an attempt to address the problem we face. I think it's just plain ignorant to dismiss it out of hand and demonize it, especially when there's nothing else in the works besides the ACCA which is currently being waivered all over the place and some vague notion that European health care is far superior to anything on the planet.
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