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  #1  
Old 04-16-2008, 06:59 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

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  #2  
Old 04-16-2008, 07:10 PM
bham bham is offline
 
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Default These are My Boys!!!!

Who else likes these two more than Bob and Mickey?
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  #3  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:01 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

I love Pinkercorn! Great enthusiasm and intelligence. I think David is going to be busy over the next few months reinterpreting Obama's gaffes. I think the true colors will continue to come shining through.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:20 PM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

"Barry" Obama is a race hustler. He will set race relations back for at least twenty years. When everything is said and done, Obama is running a "get whitey" campaign. This is especially true if you are a white man. This guy is an Al Sharpton with a Harvard law degree behind his name. He is taking full advantage of guilt tripped white left-wingers. White middle-of-the-road Americans are finally finding out how hostile Harvard is towards them. They indeed need to wake up before it's too late. A vote for Obama is unwittingly a vote for David Duke. The latter disgusting gentleman will gain many converts after an Obama administration is through jacking them around.
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2008, 09:02 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quote:
It is especially true that Barack Obama is running a "get whitey" campaign if you are a white man.
Did I paraphrase you accurately?

Without even touching on the overt racism - the senseless illogic is astounding. Congratulations.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2008, 09:31 PM
David Thomson David Thomson is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

"Did I paraphrase you accurately?"

Paraphrase me? Why do you need to do that? Was I not sufficiently blunt? The politically correct cultural milieu considers white men to be a virus. Remember Susan Sontag? "Barry" Obama is pushing a tacit "get whitey" campaign. He and his wife have long exploited guilt tripped white for their financial benefit. They definitely know how to play the "diversity" game for all it's worth. Obama increased this talent dramatically while he attended Harvard law. The more I learn about him---the more disgusted I get.

Black men should have to earn everything they get in this world. The free ride stuff is getting old. If blacks are expected to earn their way in professional sports---they can also likewise earn it in other areas of life. Obama is a candidate for president only because of white guilt. This is 2008, and not the 1950s. It's time to get past race. We need to become truly "post racial." This can be accomplished only by rejecting race hustlers like Obama.
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:00 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Here's my theory on how Obama made such a terrible mis-step. The cardinal rule for writers holds true for politicians as well. Know your audience. I think Obama was keenly aware of his audience when he made that comment. He was probably shocked that anyone in that room of sympathizers would leak those comments to the media The fact that he made such comments to that particular audience in a closed setting reveals to me that he meant EXACTLY what he said. David Corn seems to sincerely believe it when he says Obama is being misrepresented but also seems to be too honest to relish the role of spin-meister, and it will become increasingly difficult for him as more and more indications of Obama's leftist ideology come out.
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:08 PM
Fuquier Fuquier is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Thomson View Post
This can be accomplished only by rejecting race hustlers like Obama.
Frankly, I think you are the race hustler here.

If you want to get "post racial" by insisting that "Black men should have to earn everything they get in this world"... why don't you just say "men"? Are you going to rail against McCain for marrying a rich woman? Bush for his obvious privileges? No, I don't think you will.
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:08 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quote:
He was probably shocked that anyone in that room of sympathizers would leak those comments to the media
This is probably false. The shock would have been that an innocuous and basically accurate characterization became fodder for somewhat effective, if unprincipled, attacks.
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  #10  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:10 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuquier View Post
Frankly, I think you are the race hustler here.

If you want to get "post racial" by insisting that "Black men should have to earn everything they get in this world"... why don't you just say "men"? Are you going to rail against McCain for marrying a rich woman? Bush for his obvious privileges? No, I don't think you will.

Yup. Not to mention the sneering and gratuitous "Barry." You might as well say "boy."
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  #11  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:32 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quoting Aem Jeff- "innocuous and basically accurate characterization"

And the beat goes on...You lefties will never get it!
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  #12  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:38 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

jh, I live in Philadelphia, I've lived in PA for many decades. The people Obama was describing are my friends, neighbors, and family. What are you suggesting I'm failing to "get?"
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:40 PM
InJapan InJapan is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Yup, these are the dynamic duo of blogginheads.tv.

The last topic, on the dancers and the arrest, really does open up an issue that needs more discussion. Photographers around the US have discovered firsthand how over-aggressive some law enforcement personnel can be, but also how touchy many ordinary citizens are about photographs being taken.

Of course there are always the pundits/partisans who want to blame GWB for this... but it really is not his fault. The feelings of insecurity are so part of us as humans that they come to the surface with the most mild of provocations.

I agree with Jim... in that the tendency for many Americans will be to (cautiously) side with the police in many of these situations. I chalk it up to the loss of community that our modern, automobile-empowered, often-relocating careers have given us.
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  #14  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:55 PM
jh in sd jh in sd is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

AemJeff, Jim explains quite succienctly what you don't get...and then you go on to say the characterization is "accurate." I live in South Dakota where we'll keep on clinging to our guns and our religion. No one here seems particularily bitter.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:12 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh in sd View Post
AemJeff, Jim explains quite succienctly what you don't get...and then you go on to say the characterization is "accurate." I live in South Dakota where we'll keep on clinging to our guns and our religion. No one here seems particularily bitter.
Suffice it to say "accuracy" is a judgment based on observation. Regardless of your feelings about your neighbors, about whom I'll gladly take your word, there's nothing in the following:

Quote:
And they’ve gone through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, and they cling to guns, or religion, or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
-Barack Obama
that doesn't fit quite a few people in my state. Note, there's no claim that the things listed in that last sentence are synonymous with bitterness, or that they can only follow from bitterness, which is really the only way that this quote could be construed as anything other than a simple observation. That suggestion is the problem with Pinkerton's (and most that of most other critics') characterization. (And I'm generally a fan of his, despite not agreeing with him about much.)
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Last edited by AemJeff; 04-16-2008 at 11:46 PM.. Reason: better wording
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  #16  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:26 PM
peteai peteai is offline
 
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Question Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

I like David & Jim too, but I can't believe they can justify arresting someone unlawfully. Their justification is something along the lines - Police have a stressful job and the quiet dancing made them uncomfortable"

Jeez has the US gone this far ?? Maybe a black man running for president will make some police uncomfortable & they will arrent him ? Arresting someone who has not broken the law & who is doing a harmless activity ? It simply 'WRONG' & an abuse of power.

The US is not yet a police state but if most of the US would support the police action (as suggested by both David & Jim) I worry for the future of the US.

And was that "Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind" phrase specially for the Philadephia common man that Jim so identifies with ???
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:28 PM
deecue deecue is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Where is the carefulness in these comments?

Let's stop the boosterism and the overheated responses. Clearly Obama made a mistake in using the word "cling." Clearly Obama was correct in noting that people are "bitter." This all seemed pretty obvious from the first. Interestingly, this may turn out to be a Howard Dean moment, where things don't sound as bad in the room as they do out of context. That being said there are a lot of ways to parse his statement to divine Senator Obama's actual thoughts and feelings and it's readily apparent at this point that people will pick and choose and see what they want to see (I'll go ahead and single David Thomson out as a particularly egregious example of this phenomenon). I think the responses speak to the depth and pervasiveness of the actual political divisions and unyielding cynicism that is out there--even on Bloggingheads!--which could bode poorly for Obama's candidacy.

To jump away from the meta, it seems that while on the whole Pinkerton's analysis on the increased deference to authority is accurate, to say that this increased deference will result in people sympathizing with the cops over the dancers in this case is overreaching--but this is imo, the nature of which may be entirely generational.
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  #18  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:42 PM
deecue deecue is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Hi jh in sd: It is interesting to me that you took Obama's comments so personally. You don't live in Pennsylvannia. You aren't a bit bitter in your non-internet life. Did you feel economically neglected throughout the Clinton and Bush years? No? Maybe he wasn't talking about you? Then again, your empathy for your fellow Americans who you feel are under attack is admirable. However, might I suggest your response could be a tad defensive? The statement was a terrible generalization, but if you'll notice, politicians do this all the time.
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  #19  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:08 AM
Namazu Namazu is offline
 
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Default Re: These are My Boys!!!!

Does David have Tourette's syndrome or is he just rude?
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  #20  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:17 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Foreign Affairs is not their specialty

Two little points.

Even the French have figured out what happened with Sadar Basra residents welcome Iraq army crackdown

Mr. Corn fails to mention that the amount of money requested as aid for Iraqi reconstruction was cut from $5.2 B to $2.5 B because the Iraqi government is now putting more money into reconstruction.
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  #21  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:40 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Just started watching. After nine minutes, I must say, I cannot believe Jim is being so insistently partisan. The amount of spin he's laying on the "elitist" and "out of touch" memes is not what I'd expect from him, nor does he seem as though he's just kind of kidding about it. And to cherry-pick one poll as "evidence" when the polls have been all over the place, with an average result of "no big effect detected," is really disappointing. Maybe he's still got some Huckleberry Kool-Aid in his system.

And why is it always okay for the right to play the class card when they want to mock the other side ("San Francisco," "trust fund," "Mother Jones core readership," "Harvard," "Columbia," etc.) but it's always an outrage for them when a Democrat "starts class warfare?"

And don't even get me started on rich guy Jim claiming to be any more in touch with the common man than any lefty rich guy. It'd be a joke, if the tropes weren't so stale.

C'mon, Jim. You know better than that.

Or maybe the truth is, the right is scared to death of running against Obama.

[Added] Now he's returning to the Fox News attempt to keep the Rev. Wright thing alive. O. M. G.

[Added] I'm going to stop "live-blogging" this now but I have to ask: who stole Jim Pinkerton's senses of humor and balance? I cannot believe how badly he misquoted what Wright said at the funeral. Guess that's a nice paycheck he's getting to wave the Fox flag. Really sad for BH.tv viewers, though. Million Man March??? Skinny Al Sharpton??????

I fear we've lost Jim to the borg that is Fox News.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 04-17-2008 at 12:57 AM..
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  #22  
Old 04-17-2008, 01:52 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

More thoughts as they happened:

On further listening to this, I really can't emphasize my disappoint with Jim's new attitude enough. I'm fine with him being a rock-ribbed conservative, but to be so willing to distort the truth and employ racist attacks is just jaw-dropping.

Just makes me shake my head to hear Jim deny that the national deficit and debt are problems. So much for the conservative principle of fiscal responsibility. I guess when you can't attain one of your conservative principles, the next step is to act like you never held it, is that it, Jim?

I am annoyed when Jim presumes to speak for the "American people" regarding the war. He is incorrect to say that "we" "want to win." The truth is, a majority of Americans oppose the war, want to be out of Iraq ASAP, and while I don't know a number on this, I bet a sizable fraction would say either we've lost or we have no hope of winning.
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  #23  
Old 04-17-2008, 02:29 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default I Love You, Jim (Don't Tell Dave)!

15:00~

To Jim:

Between someone who advocates the "destruction" of anyone or anything (Parsley) and someone expressing their disagreements non-violently (Wright), I'd grudgingly listen to both, if it were free of charge and I weren't otherwise engaged in useful activity.

I owe you the same, Jim!
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2008, 02:47 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default The Wrong Vigilance

~39:00:

it's not the cops I'm worried about, but the politicians making the laws, and even the regs that directly administer them, that police have to enforce regardless of whether they want to do so or not.
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:30 AM
StillmanThomas StillmanThomas is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
On further listening to this, I really can't emphasize my disappoint with Jim's new attitude enough.
I completely agree, Brendan. Very sad. I think it becomes clear what's happening when they talk about the dancing at the Jefferson Memorial. Jim is totally given over to fear. Everything has changed since 9/11. We're under attack by terrorists and we need to be very afraid!!!

I think this is the key issue of our time. It's what's animating the Democratic primary, and what will animate the presidential race in the fall if Obama is nominated. Are we going to cling to the past, hide in our holes, and give away our liberities and constitutional protections? Or are we going to stand up, take our futures in our hands, and declare: we will stand on the principles that our founders articulated: limited government, checks and balances between the branches, and civil liberties for all, including those accused of hating us and trying to destroy us?

From Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address: "With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."

I am hopeful for the future, Brendan, and hopeful that Jim and others whom I admire on the right will somehow find the backbone to throw off the fear-mongers and return to a confident belief in our way of life, in all that makes us great as a people.
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Last edited by StillmanThomas; 04-17-2008 at 03:41 AM.. Reason: Forgot to quote JBKeefe
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2008, 03:30 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default "Bum Rap" for Obama?

Quote:
On further listening to this, I really can't emphasize my disappoint with Jim's new attitude enough.
Jim is just oozing the anti-Obama memes we will be hearing through early November.

Obama's choice of the "cling" word was revealing, and it's not a surprise that the right wing has gone for the jugular.

One "clings" to a security blanket: a fetish. So it's hard to get around the idea that Obama thinks that people who don't vote for progressive causes fetishize religion, guns and immigrant-hating.

Now I, as an anti-gun, pro-immigrant atheist actually tend to agree with Obama. (I think Obama is actually anti-gun, pro-immigrant and skeptical of religious dogma.) But you can't tell voters their hot-button issues are fetishes and get away with it.

Is Obama really a snob or an elitist and getting what David calls a "bum rap"? Yes, I think it is a bum rap. "Elitist" (as others have pointed out) is euphemistic for "uppity." There's a whiff of racism in calling Obama elitist.

It's ironic that a Harvard-educated black is denigrated for being "elitist," while a street-smart black is denigrated for Alsharptonness. You can't win. What would constitute a good enough black stereotype for Jim? Now we know the answer: Tiger Woods for president.
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Last edited by Wonderment; 04-17-2008 at 03:47 AM..
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2008, 04:15 AM
otto otto is offline
 
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Default We Love Mothers

The bit where they both decided that they liked their mothers was rather charming.

Overall, they spoke over each other a bit more than usual, and its better when they manage to restrain themselves a little more. I was reminded - mildly - of the David Corn/Byron York Plame shoutfest at times.
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:39 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Just started watching. After nine minutes, I must say, I cannot believe Jim is being so insistently partisan. The amount of spin he's laying on the "elitist" and "out of touch" memes is not what I'd expect from him, nor does he seem as though he's just kind of kidding about it. And to cherry-pick one poll as "evidence" when the polls have been all over the place, with an average result of "no big effect detected," is really disappointing. Maybe he's still got some Huckleberry Kool-Aid in his system.

And why is it always okay for the right to play the class card when they want to mock the other side ("San Francisco," "trust fund," "Mother Jones core readership," "Harvard," "Columbia," etc.) but it's always an outrage for them when a Democrat "starts class warfare?"

And don't even get me started on rich guy Jim claiming to be any more in touch with the common man than any lefty rich guy. It'd be a joke, if the tropes weren't so stale.

C'mon, Jim. You know better than that.

Or maybe the truth is, the right is scared to death of running against Obama.

[Added] Now he's returning to the Fox News attempt to keep the Rev. Wright thing alive. O. M. G.

[Added] I'm going to stop "live-blogging" this now but I have to ask: who stole Jim Pinkerton's senses of humor and balance? I cannot believe how badly he misquoted what Wright said at the funeral. Guess that's a nice paycheck he's getting to wave the Fox flag. Really sad for BH.tv viewers, though. Million Man March??? Skinny Al Sharpton??????

I fear we've lost Jim to the borg that is Fox News.
Great post, Brendan; it's the perfect response, and describes my own reaction to Jim's dishonesty. I'm glad someone is holding his feet to the fire (what little good it will do aside).

My own theory is that Jim's "new attitude" is due to the impending election. And he's not the only one: I noticed the same thing in 2004: He and a large number of other conservatives who can normally be expected to be fairly honest become totally dishonest in proximity to presidential elections. For the next 7 months, Jim will try to do as much damage to Barack Obama as he can, and he'll have no trouble lying to do it.

Take his treatment of Obama's "bitter" comment. Jim didn't just get it wrong; he lied about it, knowingly and willfully, directly into the camera. Here's how he characterized Obama's remarks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkerton
What he said was ... [a] crypto-Marxist viewpoint that the workers have been bamboozled by Jerry Falwell into neglecting their economic interests so they can keep their guns and their women pregnant and barefoot."
Obama said absolutely nothing of the kind, and Jim knows it. Here's what Obama actually said. Note it contains nothing about pregnancy, bare feet, Jerry Falwell, being bamboozled into following religion, or Marxism:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama"
I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.

Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes, you know, roll back the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Right now, Jim is in campaign mode: his sole professional objective for the next 7 months is to get McCain elected, and he will happily lie in pursuit of that goal.

And the sad thing is that this will not hurt him. There are rich rewards for the right-wing pundit willing to lie in service of the Movement. The more performances like this one that Jim turns in, the more beloved he will be by the Rush/Hannity/O'Reilly base of the Republican Party.
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:52 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
On further listening to this, I really can't emphasize my disappoint with Jim's new attitude enough. I'm fine with him being a rock-ribbed conservative, but to be so willing to distort the truth and employ racist attacks is just jaw-dropping.
In my previous response I attributed this to the impending election. I said that in 2004 I noticed the same thing: A large number of normally honest conservatives revert to lying, partisan hacks. There are a number of "below the radar" wingnuts in the MSM, such as Norah O'Donnell and Andrea Mitchell, who mostly play it straight: the "neutral" journalist, but can be increasingly counted on to lie in service of their agenda as the election approaches. As soon as the election passes (at least if 2004 is any guide) they will revert to their neutral form.

Then there are the openly conservative, like Joe Scarborough and Pinkerton. Scarborough is always reliably conservative, but most of the time he's also fair and honest. But like Jim, that has been suspended until the election is over. If you've seen Scarborough lately, you know he is now as dishonest as Pinkerton.

Quite simply: These conservatives put their commitment to the movement before their responsibility to be fair and honest, and they will do whatever they have to to ensure a Republican victory. And they will be rewarded. Honest brokers are useless to the Republican Party and the right-wing movement; what they need are skilled liars, and Pinkerton -- credit where it's due -- is a masterful, brilliant liar.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 04-17-2008 at 10:51 AM..
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:52 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: "Bum Rap" for Obama?

Quote:
It's ironic that a Harvard-educated black is denigrated for being "elitist," while a street-smart black is denigrated for Alsharptonness. You can't win.
And, apparently Obama not only can't win, he contains multitudes!
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  #31  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:01 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Pinkerton Lies

Pinkerton said, "Obama fell 20 points in Pennsylvania in the last week" as a result of the "bitter" comment.

What actually happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The poll Jim cited
The new poll by American Research Group -- conducted Friday, Saturday and Sunday -- gave Clinton 57% and Obama 37% (based on interviews with 600 Democrats, the survey has an error margin of plus-or-minus 4 percentage points). The 20-point margin is all the more dramatic because, just the week before, an ARG poll found the pair in a flat-out tie in Pennsylvania, each with 45%.
So, Obama fell 8 points. Not 20. And as David pointed out, this wasn't the only poll. Jim was not only lying about the one poll he cited, he was being dishonest by pretending it was the only poll taken in Pennsylvania.

This is what elections do to conservatives who are normally semi-honest: turns them into partisan hacks and liars. Jim puts his membership in the conservative movement waaaaay ahead of his responsibilities as a member of the media establishment to tell the truth. He's more than happy to sacrifice whatever professional reputation he might enjoy in service of a McCain victory (achieved not by boosting McCain, but destroying Obama).

But of course, there will be no cost to Pinkerton for his dishonestly. On the contrary, his performance in this diavlog will earn him praise and affection from the Republican Party, which values skilled liars as important assets and key role models to be emulated, and rewarded with employment opportunities.

Jim's dishonest misrepresentation of the ARG poll is not something other conservatives will recoil from or correct. It's something they will emulate. They will think to themselves, "Ah! Misrepresenting a 20 point gap as a 20 point drop! Ingenious!"

It is in this way that the media establishment will ensure a McCain presidency.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 04-17-2008 at 10:47 AM..
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:05 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Just started watching. After nine minutes, I must say, I cannot believe Jim is being so insistently partisan. The amount of spin he's laying on the "elitist" and "out of touch" memes is not what I'd expect from him, nor does he seem as though he's just kind of kidding about it. And to cherry-pick one poll as "evidence" when the polls have been all over the place, with an average result of "no big effect detected," is really disappointing. Maybe he's still got some Huckleberry Kool-Aid in his system.

[...]

I fear we've lost Jim to the borg that is Fox News.
It's a damn shame. Pinkerton has seemed like a reliable voice in the wilderness. with a genuine lack of cynicism and a point of view that cut obliquely and exposed a lot of good stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
And why is it always okay for the right to play the class card when they want to mock the other side ("San Francisco," "trust fund," "Mother Jones core readership," "Harvard," "Columbia," etc.) but it's always an outrage for them when a Democrat "starts class warfare?"
Republicans are still the absolute masters of heads we win, tails you lose politics. I start wishing every campaign season for signs of life among the Democrats, but every time it seems somebody might get it, something meaningless ("Dean-Scream") decaptitates them. In objective terms I have to acknowledge the Republicans' tactical mastery.
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  #33  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:55 AM
zookarama zookarama is offline
 
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Default blood in the water

Quoting bjkeefe: Just started watching. After nine minutes, I must say, I cannot believe Jim is being so insistently partisan. The amount of spin he's laying on the "elitist" and "out of touch" memes is not what I'd expect from him, nor does he seem as though he's just kind of kidding about it.

Republicans believe that this remark by Obama is going to rescue them from the f**kups of the past 8 years. Sorry. Whoever the Dem nominee is will remind us again why we're so eager for a fundamental change in (pick any area of public policy.)

The doldrums that is the time between primaries has caused the MSM much distress and the Republicans know that the MSM will 'cling' to any sort of sensationalism that will keep the eye glazed out in tvland. (how's that for elitism?)

Calm down, Jim. In your heart, you know the repubs are going down.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:43 AM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

TwinSwords:

I think your post indicates how bias is in the eye of the beholder. It's interesting, for example, that you consider Andrea Mitchell to be a "below the radar...wingnut." I always thought she supported Kerry over Bush, and supports Hillary in the current campaign.

I think you're correct that people become more strongly partisan as an election gets closer, but I strongly disagree with your characterization of this as solely being a characteristic of the right-wing. For example, if you've regularly read center-left blogs for the past six months, you would have witnessed the attitude towards John McCain transform from grudging respect to animosity once it became clear that he, rather than Guilianni or Romney, would become the Republican nomimee. The election cycle pushes people to take a more adversarial attitude than usual, causing them to become more forgiving of their side's flaws and more outraged by minor flubs made by people on the other side.

How many times during the election season have you read bloggers claim they that used to think highly of a pundit/politician whom they typically disagreed with, but that they "lost all respect" for that person on account of a single statement/blog post they recently made?

Finally, while I agree with you that this wasn't Jim's finest moment on bloggingheads (though I wouldn't conclude that his misstatment about Pennsylvania polls was purposefully deceitful), I'd disagree with your characterization of Joe Scarborough. I watch Morning Joe on a regular basis, and find Joe to be one of the most fair-minded pundits out there. Sure, you can take a snippet from his show and say that it seems grossly unfair, but if you watch the show for a reasonable and regular duration, he's reliably even-handed.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:47 AM
Thus Spoke Elvis Thus Spoke Elvis is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton Lies

That seems a lot more like a mistake than a lie. A "lie" is a purposeful misstatement to deceive another. Do you really think Pinkerton is trying to trick David Corn, or the vast bloggingheads viewing audience? Isn't it more reasonable to assume that Pinkerton is bad at math, and, like virtually everyone, emphasizes those facts and polls that reinforce his existing beliefs?
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  #36  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:15 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Elvis:

Pardon me for jumping in on your thread with Twin, but I wanted to say two things:

First, comparing the change in Jim's tone, especially regarding Obama, to the change in lefty bloggers' tone, as regards McCain, is not really fair. The comparison to make would be, say, Jim to David Corn. While Corn is a proud and partisan lefty, and always has been, note that he was able to maintain honesty in this diavlog; e.g; in the way he could acknowledge and discuss the bad aspects to Obama's remarks. Had David been being like Jim on this issue, he would have either denied Obama said it, denied it was important and refused to talk about it (cf. Jim on the national debt), or just insisted it was all a right-wing smear attempt (which it mostly is).

Second, while I grant that the looming election and the endless campaign have something to do with the change in tone, part of the leftosphere's change in attitude towards McCain has also to do with his apparent embrace of two of the worst aspects of the Bush doctrine: stay the course in Iraq and continue favoring the rich with tax policy. Add to that his wooing of the evangelical vote (when he used to be reasonable about this group), his sudden evasiveness regarding his medical and tax records, his mantra of being a "footsoldier in the Reagan Revolution," his obsession with the grizzly bear study, etc., and there's every reason to have lost "grudging respect" for the man. "Maverick?" "Straight talk?" Not so much, anymore.

There's also an irritation that's growing as it becomes ever more apparent what a break McCain gets from the MSM. They obsess over inanities like a flag lapel pin for Obama, and create and maintain "controversies," and then "cover the controversy," over things like bowling and what drink he chose to order in a diner ("Orange juice, not coffee??? The horror!!!), but when McCain can't keep straight the difference between Sunnis and Shiites, on multiple occasions, there's always some MSM-type rushing in to say, "Just a slip of the tongue -- not important."

The MSM wondered whether Jeremiah Wright was the be-all and end-all of Obama's thinking, but had almost nothing to say about John Hagee and other televangelists whose support McCain courted and gratefully accepted.

When a McCain surrogate says something obnoxious, the focus tends to be on McCain saying he didn't agree with the remarks, or worse, the MSM hasten to explain that McCain was "unaware" of them. The story is never artificially kept alive the way it is with Obama.

Also, you will rarely see a MSM reference to McCain without "war hero" being somewhere mentioned. While his conduct as a POW appears to have been admirable, I fail to see why events from 40 years ago should be held up as conclusive evidence that he'll make smart executive decisions.

I could go on for pages, but I think you get my point.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:26 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Zeitgeistial Straws in the Wind

Bokonon:

Quote:
I think it becomes clear what's happening when they talk about the dancing at the Jefferson Memorial. Jim is totally given over to fear. Everything has changed since 9/11. We're under attack by terrorists and we need to be very afraid!!!
I couldn't bear to respond to this part, so I'm glad you said something about it. You're absolutely right about Jim's, and much of the rest of the right's, fetish for fear.

I'd add that this was yet another point where Jim's presuming to speak for "the American people" irritated me. Having had a night to cool off, I can recognize it for what it likely is -- a rhetorical device meant to plant a seed -- but it still rubs me the wrong way. The fact is, most people have always has a respect for cops and other figures of authority, especially in face-to-face encounters, especially middle-class whites. This dance thing does not signify any change at all -- there have always been cops with petty Napoleonic tendencies, and they almost always get obeyed.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:41 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default How soon they forget

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
My own theory is that Jim's "new attitude" is due to the impending election. And he's not the only one: I noticed the same thing in 2004: He and a large number of other conservatives who can normally be expected to be fairly honest become totally dishonest in proximity to presidential elections. For the next 7 months, Jim will try to do as much damage to Barack Obama as he can, and he'll have no trouble lying to do it.
I'm surprised everyone is surprised at Jim's attitude. I first saw it demonstrated back when he was on with Jim Schmitt and had a meltdown of indignation over the illegal immigrant situation, and IIRC, was talking up a border wall (electronic?)

And who can forget his very serious suggestion of a cop at every mosque?

Quote:
Obama said absolutely nothing of the kind, and Jim knows it. Here's what Obama actually said. Note it contains nothing about pregnancy, bare feet, Jerry Falwell, being bamboozled into following religion, or Marxism:
Well, I think that's just exaggeration for effect. It's important to note that the first time you hear the 'bitter' remark, it sounds like he's calling Pennsylvanians a bunch of red-necks. As Wonderment alluded to above, it was a rookie mistake.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:49 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: How soon they forget

look:

You're right that Jim has exhibited wingnut tendencies in the past, and your examples of his ideas about The Fence and a cop at every mosque are spot-on. Still, though, he seemed quite different in overall affect for most of this diavlog. In the past, he'd go on for a bit with some idea, but he'd also lighten up quickly. In addition, he seemed more prone to acknowledging other sides to his point of view in the past. This time, he seemed as humorless and bullheaded as Sean Hannity, and not only did he stick to one extreme side without acknowledging the worth of other sides, he also wasn't even talking about original ideas. At least the cop at every mosque nuttiness was something I hadn't heard before. Pretty much everything he said in this diavlog was warmed-over talking points.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:57 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: How soon they forget

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
look:

You're right that Jim has exhibited wingnut tendencies in the past, and your examples of his ideas about The Fence and a cop at every mosque are spot-on. Still, though, he seemed quite different in overall affect for most of this diavlog. In the past, he'd go on for a bit with some idea, but he'd also lighten up quickly. In addition, he seemed more prone to acknowledging other sides to his point of view in the past. This time, he seemed as humorless and bullheaded as Sean Hannity, and not only did he stick to one extreme side without acknowledging the worth of other sides, he also wasn't even talking about original ideas. At least the cop at every mosque nuttiness was something I hadn't heard before. Pretty much everything he said in this diavlog was warmed-over talking points.
Right. There's a difference between taking an extreme right-wing point of view, as Pinkerton always has, and openly lying right into the camera, something we didn't usually see from him. But my thesis is simple and based on a lot of exposure to wingnut pundits during presidential elections: Until the election passes, any pretense of fairness or honesty is out the window for a large number of right-wingers. I'm repeating myself, but the Pinkertons of the world place their role as foot soldiers in the conservative movement before their professional obligations as members of the press. Jim will glady and openly lie as much as he can and as often as necessary to ensure Barack Obama is obliterated and McCain becomes president.

I apologize to readers who don't like a harsh judgement of a beloved BHTV personality; I like Jim myself, and if folks look back on past Pinkercorn episodes, they will see this is the case. But this is what presidential elections do to wingnuts: It turns them into willful liars.

That's the "change" in Jim that people are detecting. He'll go back to caring about his reputation as a journalist once the election is over. Until then, anything goes and he'll do his duty to make sure McCain is victorious.

Key Point: Pinkerton isn't the only one. There are several in the media who follow this same pattern.
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