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  #1  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:45 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Another Victim?

I know that there hasn't been an official cause of death made public, but we all know that she was another victim of the idiocy of a culture of self destruction. Gosh, what a waste and how deeply saddening! Such a gifted singer.

RIP, Whitney.

Last edited by Ocean; 02-12-2012 at 08:50 AM..
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I know that there hasn't been an official cause of death made public, but we all know that she was another victim of the idiocy of a culture of self destruction. Gosh, what a waste and how deeply saddening! Such a gifted singer.

RIP, Whitney.
Etta James R.I.P. is there a pattern??!
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:46 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
Etta James R.I.P. is there a pattern??!
Yes. Performers are people too.
People die.
Therefore ...
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  #4  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Yes. Performers are people too.
People die.
Therefore ...
you see one pattern, i see another!! i wonder why??!

when you can't control the dosage or purity of your own "poison" or seek medical and/or Psychological attention for fear of criminalization(and the moral judgments of puritanical society), life can be hell.

therefore as the group "war" said:

"you are slipping into darkness, and pretty soon you'll have to pay".

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 02-12-2012 at 02:41 PM..
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  #5  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:53 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
you see one pattern, i see another!! i wonder why??!

when you can't control the dosage or purity of your own "poison" or seek medical and/or Psychological attention for fear of criminalization(and the moral judgments of puritanical society), life can be hell.

therefore as the group "war" said:

"you are slipping into darkness, and pretty soon you'll have to pay".
You're pattern is more fine-grained and likely close to her sad demise. I don't know any of the details about Etta James passing, but Michael Jackson would also be a good candidate to illustrate your point.
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  #6  
Old 02-12-2012, 04:38 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
when you can't control the dosage or purity of your own "poison" or seek medical and/or Psychological attention for fear of criminalization(and the moral judgments of puritanical society), life can be hell.
Anyone, and for multiple reasons can be the victim of poisons. Help is available, for most people, and especially people with resources. "Help" isn't always enough, and isn't always effective, but it's there.

My statement today is about the sadness of the situation. So many incredibly talented people, wasted, fallen and gone, when there could have been a better outcome. Of course, that's life. We can't fool ourselves thinking that we can avoid every pain, or that we can save others.

But, at least we have the right to grieve and cry when life shows its ugly side.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2012, 02:11 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Etta James died of cancer.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2012, 04:30 AM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Etta James died of cancer.
i know, but the road to her cancer was plagued with substance abuse, and the shame and blame for being a "user". i have known too many Etta James's and the climate in which they have suffered and died.

a short story:

in 1963 as a senior in high school, i had been playing in an african-american college band for three years because i couldn't play in the newly desegregated school band. on week-ends i played in an "r&b" band in small country towns. i also had been a "downbeat" magazine reader for 6 years( i was a jazz-man). substance abuse among musicians became very clear to me(i only smoked cigarettes( from boy scout camp(11 yrs old) until i was 29 yrs old)).

i had this german-american english teacher, who asked us to write a senior paper after consultation with her. she could hardly look at me, less known speak to me. so, i never got my consultation, and wrote about something that interested me, "The Use Of Drugs By Jazz Musicians".

well, one day she finally spoke to me, and asked me to come to her desk. at her desk she told me that she was giving me a passing grade, but she told me that she did not bother to read my paper, because the subject was not worthy of consideration.

this same patronizing and condescending(P&C) attitude has been the bane of my existence in working with various "junkie" friends. many have told me that they would rather die than to have to deal with this P&C bullshit. many hide in the shadows, until their health is severely compromised, and die of all sort of things.

i am biased, but i feel that many who want to help/save addicts are worse than the chemicals of the addiction. the human element is critical. the subject that i wrote about, and the people in these situations are beneath too many high and mighty people, imho. the body heals itself, we can only inhibit, or facilitate the process.

to all of my friends who have died because of this non-sense, R.I.P.

yeah, yeah, i know, but as Twain said "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics". too many people are lying, while others are dying. save your P&C empiricism crap for somebody else.

P.S. Hola Hairy!!!???
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2012, 09:56 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
i am biased, but i feel that many who want to help/save addicts are worse than the chemicals of the addiction. the human element is critical. the subject that i wrote about, and the people in these situations are beneath too many high and mighty people, imho. the body heals itself, we can only inhibit, or facilitate the process.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I really wonder whether your opinion is based on those earlier experiences that you describe.

Currently many if not most, of the alcohol or drug abuse counsellors are people who are in recovery themselves. They've been through the same hell as those that they try to help. When people come for help they may be ready for change or not. In my experience it's only a minority of them that is ready and succeeds. But most will come back until their time for recovery clicks.

Those who are studying the physiological / psychological aspects of addictions (not the clinicians as above) are a different crowd. They tend to look at this problem with the same intellectual curiosity as any other researcher. They're more detached from the everyday experience of addictions, but it isn't all that relevant because they don't have much contact with those who have the problem.

And then there's people like me. I don't have personal experience with drugs, and addictions isn't my area of expertise. But, it is one of the many problems that people that I see and try to help daily come with. I wish I could do more for them, but as you said before, we can only assist in a process that starts inside, the motivation to stop using. We can assist, or enable, facilitate or inhibit or block. But the only true, lasting, recovery has to go through a deep internal process. It's wonderful to see when people get it and kick the habit (so to speak), and sad when someone falls victim of the most tragic consequences.
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2012, 11:40 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I really wonder whether your opinion is based on those earlier experiences that you describe.
oh, by the way, did you complete your catechism?
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  #11  
Old 02-18-2012, 10:35 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
i have known too many Etta James's and the climate in which they have suffered and died.
Billy Holiday...the list is long.

Great story and I am eternally ashamed about the crap you had to endure but here's my take...Whitney doesn't come close to your experience (Etta probably does).

Whitney was given the world on a silver platter. She looked at it and upended it. She's not the only one, of course, but her generation doesn't hold a candle to yours.

However... that girl could sing.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 02-18-2012 at 11:15 AM..
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2012, 04:28 AM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Billy Holiday...the list is long.

Great story and I am eternally ashamed about the crap you had to endure but here's my take...Whitney doesn't come close to your experience (Etta probably does).

Whitney was given the world on a silver platter. She looked at it and upended it. She's not the only one, of course, but her generation doesn't hold a candle to yours.

However... that girl could sing.
the crap one has to endure is relative to one’s frame of mind. family is the crucial element in emotional stability. i stand on the shoulders of giants. i don’t know about Whitney’s family other than the artistic make-up(show-biz). being Aretha’ s god-child is not actually a compliment. character is a strange metric, but it is our structual foundation. i don’t know, time is funny, but pain is where you find it.

in terms of what has happened to african-americans in this country, i’ve lived a priviledged life. i was a star up until i was 12 yrs. old and my dyslexia kicked in. i was miseriable until at 13 years of age i read that “there is nothing so uncommon as common-sense”. then i reasoned, that “then what is common must be uncommon-sense”. every since then things kind-of fell into place and, i have just been unhappy! it sounds trivial, yet i find it a reasonal trade-off. i am content!

from 13 on, everynight i listened to Billy Holiday and John Coltrane before i went to bed. i would wake-up to “lazy bone” by Sonny Stitt. i am impossible to get along with, but my wife of 45 yrs has managed it. i guess she says like Billy did “the difficult i’ll do right now, the impossible will take a little while, i say, i’ll care forever, and i mean forever, even if i have to hold up the sky, crazy they call me, sure i’m crazy, crazy in love am i”.

i met trane in “64” at the half note in new york. his manager had brought me, my sister, and two friends to the club. i asked trane if he would play “I want to talk about you”(the tune that i listened to almost every night from his soultrane album). he was drunk, and looked at me and said “no kid i am too far beyond that”. i apologized for bothering him, and went back to my seat and gulped down a drink (the table was full of drinks, because there was a 2 drink minumum, and they brought them all at once). all in all, it was a hell of a good night!!

A Love Supreme, A Love Supreme!!!

Jimmy Garrison!!!!!!!!

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 02-27-2012 at 03:07 PM.. Reason: A Love Supreme
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  #13  
Old 02-18-2012, 10:58 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

something more...

You smoked cigarettes, other jazz musicians shot heroin. What made the difference? the experience was the same.

Was it, by chance, yo momma???
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Last edited by badhatharry; 02-18-2012 at 11:05 AM..
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2012, 12:46 AM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
something more...



Was it, by chance, yo momma???
hmmm, when i mess around with my tar-baby, i always come up with a sticky wicket??
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2012, 04:21 AM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
something more...

You smoked cigarettes, other jazz musicians shot heroin. What made the difference? the experience was the same.
my experience was not the same. i always describe myself as “a jazz-man”, not a jazz musician:

- i stopped performing after high school. my experience with the “R&B” convinced me that i didn’t want to become a professional musician. i am not a good “band-boy”( nor “locker room boy” for that matter). people thought that i was a good musician, but after hearing Clifford Brown, i knew that i wasn’t much of a trumpet player.

- the “jazz-man” label came about from the fact that after 13 yrs of age, i increasingly took refruge in music(all kinds, but especially jazz). music was and is my meditation. i was able to work things out in my head through music. dyslexia seperated me from my previous elite academic peer-group in every way, except for music and conversation. i was a monster listener of music. my mother had a huge collection of “78’s”(the real albums). i started collecting “45’s”, and then “lp’s”. my mother also had this great old combination record player(“78’’s only) multi-band radio.

at one time, i could only hear (“both kinds of music”) “country&western” during the day-time on am radio. at night i listened to “clear-channel” stations(wwl,new orleans, wlw chicago , what philadelphia for jazz, and most infamously “WLAC NASHVILLE TENNESSEE” after mid-night for “R&B”, “RANDY’S RECORD SHOP”. on shortwave, i listened to WillIs Connover,s Voice Of America Jazz, and odd and ends from Voice Of The Andes, Quito Ecuador. limited classical music was the fare of “FM” in those days. after 1957, KOKY(rhythm, blues, gospel, and news) brought all-day african-american music to Little Rock. Leo “JACKO” Carter, followed by Al Bel(of Memphis Stax records fame), helped me “blow my blues away”.

- i started “band” at 13 yrs. i could not do straight-up book reports, so i cheated with classic comic books. but in band classes, while warming-up, my horn would blurt out these wonderful melodic lines, automatically, to everyone elses and my surprise( kinda like automatic handwritting). hence-forth, i became known as “the jazz-man”. so, while i was losing ground academically, nobody bothered me, because i was “a jazz-man”. but dyslexia, caught up with me in music eventually, because reading music, imho, is critical for success. i have a great “ear”, but you can only go so far(and some have gone quite far) on that! musicians are a strange lot, i am not a “musician”. a lot of musicians i know, would hear my music and say “wow but you don’t look like a musician”. and such is life!!

-i was a wage slave/closet musician/avid listener to jazz and latin music until i was 39 yrs old. then for some reason or another, i got my own attention, and started writing 329 2-hour “SYNTHPHOONIES”. it is the legend of the bloody chicken( i have laid 329 square eggs), and have spent the rest of my time seeking relief by sanding them into parabola’s. keyboards, computers, and “protools” are my tools. pretty much, i’ve not been out to “the clubs” since then. one of the few times i went out to hear some friend from new york, and some stranger sits down next to me, and says “wow, where have you been, i thought you had died!”. i looked at him strangely, and he said “you don’t know me, but i haven’t seen you for 15 yrs, but before then every musical event that i attended in the bay area, you were there! i thought that you must have worked in all those clubs”. i explained to him that “i don’t get around much, anymore(thank-you Billy Strayhorn)”.
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2012, 04:14 AM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

I am also a "jazz-man" from the Bay Area, now living in France. I wonder how many times you and I might have been to the same event at Keystone Korner.

You didn't go to Lowell High School in San Francisco, did you?
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  #17  
Old 02-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

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Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I am also a "jazz-man" from the Bay Area, now living in France. I wonder how many times you and I might have been to the same event at Keystone Korner.

You didn't go to Lowell High School in San Francisco, did you?
i grew-up in little rock, ark. i moved to sf in 1967, right around the corner from "the both/and". i remember when t-odd barkin bought "keystone" from bill graham. i lived in both places, pretty much for the duration. i talked t-odd into using the idea of the "both/and card" as the "keystone card"(10 admission's for a fixed fee).

i had many "brite moments" there until t-odd's mouth hit my fist, during a lou tabackin(?)/akiyoshi(?) concert, and i never went back. i was there every week until that incident, unless i was out-of-town. i love music, but tend to hate musicians and the plantations that they have to work on.

i am a bitter old man, but how many genius's does anyone want to meet?". i call myself an "xjazzman" who loves improvisation. the great Sam Rivers, just died, and he also lived in little rock for a while as a child.

James leary(JAMLEAR on youtube) the bassist of the eddie marshall, george cables(the remnant of the old "fourth way") house trio, is also from little rock. sadly eddie died last september.

I WAS THERE!!! i used to sit in the dark corner below the sound booth, soaking-up "the sounds". the staff thought that i was anti-social because i hardly talked to anybody, and was always alone(mostly).

I CAME TO LISTEN TO MUSIC!!

i am sure that we crossed paths many times!!

P.S.
John Stubblefield(1945-2005), tenor man and i were in jr. high together. i taught "stub" to read music, and he flew off and left me.

Pharoah Sanders(Ferril Saunders) was our contemporary from north little, ark.

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 02-27-2012 at 02:55 PM..
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:56 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

During my high school years, the family house was near the corner of Masonic and Frederick in the upper Haight. I was just graduating from high school in 1967, so I was too young to go to the Both/And, but I remember it well.

I really like the Pharaoh Sanders records of the late 80's-early 90's, I think, the ones where he became so melodic. I always marvel at the fact that the piano player he had on those records, Joe Bonner, was living on the street for a time. I was recently listening to one of those two-record sets, because I have it on cassette, and I was traveling in a car that only had a cassette player.
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:07 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?

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Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
I always marvel at the fact that the piano player he had on those records, Joe Bonner, was living on the street for a time. I was recently listening to one of those two-record sets, because I have it on cassette, and I was traveling in a car that only had a cassette player.
i am happy that you know Joe Bonner! when he was there(if you know what i mean), he was unbelievable. most people have never heard of him.

i heard him live, about 10 times, at "the both/and", which leads me to one of my great rants about the poor quality of most jazz recordings.

i heard Miles Davis for 7 nights once, and it was fantastic. but at breaks, i kept asking other patrons if they noticed the difference between the live sound and the records played during the break. to my ear, the difference was night and day bad. but everybody wrote it off as "well it is just a record".

as early as 1961, i had heard some of bob fine's "mercy living presence series" recordings that are still great. yet my recordings of "a love supreme" don't come close to what i heard live in new york.

rudy van gelder, and others made some land-mark recordings, but the bassist jimmy garrison's sound(joe bonner and tons of other great musicians) has never been captured accurately, imho, and it is a crime(mas o menos).

interestingly, herbie hancock, once brought in equipment to "the both/and", that duplicated his "fusion" recorded sound of the time.

a "keystone"/lowell high memory is Nancy Vellutini. do you know her?

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 02-29-2012 at 12:03 AM..
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2012, 01:42 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: Another Victim?



i was trying to attach a photo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture 15.jpg (11.7 KB, 16 views)

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 02-19-2012 at 01:44 PM..
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