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  #1  
Old 01-18-2012, 06:17 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Now, I'm less sure about voting Obama in the fall. Arguments can be made for why Democrats support these things, but they aren't good.
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2012, 07:35 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

This Keystone business is beyond idiotic, in an economic climate like this.

Where's Rachel Maddow and her dam?
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2012, 07:36 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Why can't we "Do big things", Rachel? Because religious fanatics like you are offended the moment a shovel penetrates your Earth mother.
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2012, 07:45 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Why can't we "Do big things", Rachel? Because religious fanatics like you are offended the moment a shovel penetrates your Earth mother.
I thought I said the same thing, only less harsh.
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2012, 07:53 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I thought I said the same thing, only less harsh.
When you grow up in the high desert, harsh is all you know.
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2012, 08:03 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
This Keystone business is beyond idiotic, in an economic climate like this.

Where's Rachel Maddow and her dam?
It's not the economic climate that's important. It's the climate of the whole flipping planet, doncha know? doncha care?

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  #7  
Old 01-18-2012, 10:34 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
It's not the economic climate that's important. It's the climate of the whole flipping planet, doncha know? doncha care?
LOL That link was barely tolerable! Such nonsense. Its funny how the left wing used to care about things like employment and proletarian prosperity. Now the reds are like old Spanish nobility, keeping 30% of Spain as a wild hunting preserve. Except instead of the fun of hunting, you have some neo-Druid religious hokum to offer empty stomachs.
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  #8  
Old 01-18-2012, 11:56 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
LOL That link was barely tolerable! Such nonsense. Its funny how the left wing used to care about things like employment and proletarian prosperity. Now the reds are like old Spanish nobility, keeping 30% of Spain as a wild hunting preserve. Except instead of the fun of hunting, you have some neo-Druid religious hokum to offer empty stomachs.
Quote:
Preserving creation for future generations is a moral issue as monumental as ending slavery in the 19th century or fighting Nazism in the 20th century.
I would like to propose an addendum to Godwin's law: the longer climate alarmist claims are called into question, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis

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  #9  
Old 01-19-2012, 10:30 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default apropos

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

H. L. Mencken
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  #10  
Old 01-22-2012, 12:44 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Now, I'm less sure about voting Obama in the fall. Arguments can be made for why Democrats support these things, but they aren't good.
Notice NONE of the liberals here are defending the keystone decision, they aren't that stupid. Over on huffpo however...
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  #11  
Old 01-22-2012, 01:32 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Notice NONE of the liberals here are defending the keystone decision, they aren't that stupid. Over on huffpo however...
Actually no one is doing anything here, the forum is dead but for you (and me for the moment). I am not a self identified liberal but it seems to me that if the Canadians want to risk investing in their oil sands in the face of overwhelming evidence that burning same will be going out of style, then I say let them cook their sludge up there.
Regardless of whether you think climate change is real, those that do are going to oppose developing fuels that no only pollute at the point of use, but also during the refinement process. This is not going to change, and makes it a huge economic risk.
In other words, we need to invest in long term job solutions and not throw money at risky and most likely short lived projects.
Before you assume I am a green power advocate, I live in the real world, and have enough technical experience to see the folly of solar and wind power making significant contributions to our fuel supply.
But don't let my humble opinion stand in the way of perfectly workable election year talking points.
I guess my more significant point is that you are wasting your time posting them here anyway.
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2012, 10:25 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Actually no one is doing anything here, the forum is dead but for you (and me for the moment). I am not a self identified liberal but it seems to me that if the Canadians want to risk investing in their oil sands in the face of overwhelming evidence that burning same will be going out of style, then I say let them cook their sludge up there.
That's the point. They will cook up the sludge regardless of what we do. Now, the Canadians will just sell their oil to China and we will forego that supply difference with more Middle Eastern. What's the point of that?

I think climate change is real, but this isn't a climate change issue. It's a "what will happen in reality" issue. And therefore...

Quote:
Regardless of whether you think climate change is real, those that do are going to oppose developing fuels that no only pollute at the point of use, but also during the refinement process. This is not going to change, and makes it a huge economic risk.
In other words, we need to invest in long term job solutions and not throw money at risky and most likely short lived projects.
Like Solyndra? Totally agree.
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  #13  
Old 01-23-2012, 01:32 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
That's the point. They will cook up the sludge regardless of what we do. Now, the Canadians will just sell their oil to China and we will forego that supply difference with more Middle Eastern. What's the point of that?

I think climate change is real, but this isn't a climate change issue. It's a "what will happen in reality" issue. And therefore...
Disagree, this is a climate change issue, I'm saying why spend billions tooling up for this when the effort to reverse climate change will make it short lived, at best. No matter where the tooling takes place. Canada is not immune to any of this. But if it's their investment, it'll be their loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Like Solyndra? Totally agree.
I realize this is another right wing hobby horse, but this is something we should let the chinese, who have a head start, choke on. Making a token effort to compete with them, however, even if it is not intended as such, isn't such a bad thing.
Why? I see it like SDI, if they are trying to beat you at doing something impossible or develop an un-competetive technology, then they will suffer, and them seeing us make serious efforts toward the same goal can catalyze the process.
Sometimes government spending results in unintended (or not) benefits, technologies get tested, new ones emerge, and sometimes, adversaries are pushed over the edge (remember the "cold war"?). Solyndra may, or may not be an example of what I'm talking about, but it is being used to argue against such things.

I suspect now you are gonna tell me how the private sector is better at everything. The only problem with this concept is they are obviously not motivated to invest in unprofitable ventures for strategic purposes, nor should they be.
Yes we need to reel in government spending, but striking a workable balance is critical to our ultimate survival IMO, and knowing how best to do this should be left to smarter guys than me, and certainly not staunch ideologues, plutocrats, or autocrats.
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  #14  
Old 01-23-2012, 02:09 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: apropos

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

H. L. Mencken
Booo! did that scare you!!!??? if so, i know how to put your mind at ease.

movie time:

"alice doesn't live here anymore".

Last edited by Uhurusasa; 01-25-2012 at 08:10 PM..
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2012, 02:24 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Actually no one is doing anything here, the forum is dead....
I guess my more significant point is that you are wasting your time posting them here anyway.
Never say uh, die!!!

Forty-five years ago a good friend(who has gone on to become the head of one of our largest unions) revealed to me his his 2 noble truths:

1. The higher the fewer.

2. where there is life, there is BUD.

Keep hope alive!!!!
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2012, 06:49 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
Never say uh, die!!!

Forty-five years ago a good friend(who has gone on to become the head of one of our largest unions) revealed to me his his 2 noble truths:

1. The higher the fewer.

2. where there is life, there is BUD.

Keep hope alive!!!!


Unions are bankrupting America, haven't you heard? Destroyed Detroit, or so the story went. Till they recently reorganized, not the workers, but the management. Turns out the story was crap. Who knew? The workers, that's who.

Maybe I say die and the patient lives. I have that effect. Or maybe, like me they are getting tired of the frustration that is the new digs. What ever the reason, power to the posters!
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  #17  
Old 01-23-2012, 07:19 PM
Uhurusasa Uhurusasa is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
Unions are bankrupting America, haven't you heard? Destroyed Detroit, or so the story went. Till they recently reorganized, not the workers, but the management. Turns out the story was crap. Who knew? The workers, that's who.

Maybe I say die and the patient lives. I have that effect. Or maybe, like me they are getting tired of the frustration that is the new digs. What ever the reason, power to the posters!

Oh, i heard, and i saw! my friend went off to Harvard, i never saw him again. but the next year(1964), on campus, walter reuther's (AFL/CIO) daughter shows up in a limo, followed by one of the Firestone sons, in his limo, from the airport, where he had left his airplane. i was seeing the future!!

i show-up in the damnedest places, like a bad penny, and the beat goes on!

build the interest, and they will come!!!!! there is something off-putting about the new digs. this is a world of nations of sheep. become a bell-wether!!! even Bob, may come here??
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  #18  
Old 01-23-2012, 08:24 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
Disagree, this is a climate change issue, I'm saying why spend billions tooling up for this when the effort to reverse climate change will make it short lived, at best. No matter where the tooling takes place. Canada is not immune to any of this. But if it's their investment, it'll be their loss.

Nothing is going to stop us from using oil for transportation until we have a real alternative. Period. Not delaying pipelines. The only thing gained from this was the loss of added jobs. That is why it is such an exceptionally stupid thing to be against.

What this was really about for those who opposed the pipeline is not wanting any new money going into oil infrastructure. Because if we put less money into it, we'll use less, or we'll have an impact on using less oil. No, wrong, fantastically wrong. These people believe such idiotic things that they need to be disabused.


It smacks of the old style of malthusian disaster myths that Ehrlich types tried to resurrect, and never let die no matter how many times they were shown to be wrong.

Overpopulation leads to mass starvation and loss of quality of life, ergo, what we need is fewer people.

Boy, there's a great solution, pure nihilism and defeat. The sort of give up and die attitude so loved by lefty enviros.

The contrast of course was the work of Norman Borlaug and his green revolution. Instead of focusing on limiting populations, he focused on increasing the food supply so that people could live and be well, prosper, and not starve.

And that attitude is the right one when it comes to our energy needs.
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  #19  
Old 01-23-2012, 11:41 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Nothing is going to stop us from using oil for transportation until we have a real alternative. Period. Not delaying pipelines. The only thing gained from this was the loss of added jobs. That is why it is such an exceptionally stupid thing to be against.

What this was really about for those who opposed the pipeline is not wanting any new money going into oil infrastructure. Because if we put less money into it, we'll use less, or we'll have an impact on using less oil. No, wrong, fantastically wrong. These people believe such idiotic things that they need to be disabused.


It smacks of the old style of malthusian disaster myths that Ehrlich types tried to resurrect, and never let die no matter how many times they were shown to be wrong.

Overpopulation leads to mass starvation and loss of quality of life, ergo, what we need is fewer people.

Boy, there's a great solution, pure nihilism and defeat. The sort of give up and die attitude so loved by lefty enviros.

The contrast of course was the work of Norman Borlaug and his green revolution. Instead of focusing on limiting populations, he focused on increasing the food supply so that people could live and be well, prosper, and not starve.

And that attitude is the right one when it comes to our energy needs.
So this is an attitude problem, thank god. For a minute there I thought the scientists were saying we were f'ing with the atmosphere. And that cooking up oil sands was double bad. Boy was I wrong! More people, more stuff, don't be a defeatist bummer.
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  #20  
Old 01-23-2012, 11:48 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by Uhurusasa View Post
Oh, i heard, and i saw! my friend went off to Harvard, i never saw him again. but the next year(1964), on campus, walter reuther's (AFL/CIO) daughter shows up in a limo, followed by one of the Firestone sons, in his limo, from the airport, where he had left his airplane. i was seeing the future!!

i show-up in the damnedest places, like a bad penny, and the beat goes on!

build the interest, and they will come!!!!! there is something off-putting about the new digs. this is a world of nations of sheep. become a bell-wether!!! even Bob, may come here??
Strange bedfellows? There's a lot off-putting IMO. From last rites to bellwether? I'm in.
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  #21  
Old 01-24-2012, 07:34 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
So this is an attitude problem, thank god. For a minute there I thought the scientists were saying we were f'ing with the atmosphere. And that cooking up oil sands was double bad. Boy was I wrong! More people, more stuff, don't be a defeatist bummer.
Not just wrong, fantastically wrong. And idiotic things in need to be disabused. And lets speed up the smokier balmy end. Sheesh.
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  #22  
Old 01-24-2012, 09:47 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Not just wrong, fantastically wrong. And idiotic things in need to be disabused. And lets speed up the smokier balmy end. Sheesh.
Worse than wrong. Not even wrong.
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  #23  
Old 01-24-2012, 10:32 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

I don't really have a strong opinion on this, plus this thread is hardly one that should be encouraged. Thus, why am I posting? Jon has a knack, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Nothing is going to stop us from using oil for transportation until we have a real alternative.
Agree.

Quote:
The only thing gained from this was the loss of added jobs.
Disagree. If they are going to do it, it's better to change the route. I bet it ends up happening. Also, of course, the idea that any significant number of jobs would result is basically fictional.

Quote:
Because if we put less money into it, we'll use less, or we'll have an impact on using less oil. No, wrong, fantastically wrong.
Basic economics says that the price of something affects use. The supply affects price. If the effect is de minimis (as I expect), that simply indicates that the amount from greater production in the US RIGHT NOW (as with the drilling arguments) or from other forms of energy like this one aren't any kind of meaningful solution.

Note that the economic argument is also why there should be a carbon tax or the like, to address negative externalities. It has nothing to do with wanting to make us all live off the grid.

Quote:
It smacks of the old style of malthusian disaster myths that Ehrlich types tried to resurrect, and never let die no matter how many times they were shown to be wrong.
I think this is nonsense. What's more Mathusian? Low on food, so let's all feast and use it up as fast as possible? Or let's preserve sources and let the price rise somewhat now so it lasts longer, while we are working to produce more? I'd say the former. But that's what you seem to be arguing for, not the opponents to this or to "drill baby drill."

Quote:
Overpopulation leads to mass starvation and loss of quality of life, ergo, what we need is fewer people.
This is not the Dem argument. But I suppose if we make up an argument and ignore the real problem it's a lot easier to address.

Quote:
The contrast of course was the work of Norman Borlaug and his green revolution. Instead of focusing on limiting populations, he focused on increasing the food supply so that people could live and be well, prosper, and not starve.
This is not a longterm solution for oil, obviously. Oil is not a renewable resource. If we don't drill it, it's still there for later. If we do, it's gone. (Yes, I know the original debate wasn't about oil, but for some reason that's where you went so that's what I'm talking about too.)
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2012, 06:42 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Here's a building science guru I've been reading, and he says the oil / car problem is pretty much solved (see quote and link below). The real problem arises when the cars and trucks are using the same fuels we also use to heat and cool houses and buildings. Hence the need for way better building science. Turns out conventional wisdom and design in this area has been severely off base.

*Link*
Quote:
Here’s the way I see it. The first thing you have to understand is that energy security is first and foremost a car-truck-transportation problem that—as it gets solved—will change the rest of the economy—for the better I might add. In fact we have already solved the transportation problem although most folks don’t appreciate it. The good news is that the Government didn’t do it and couldn’t do it. The bad news is that Government might yet still screw it up. I want the marketplace and innovation to sort it out. The only thing we need from government is a modicum of environmental protection so we don’t pee in our collective planetary bed while this gets sorted out. I think we can count on that—the environmentalist’s heads would otherwise explode run the vehicle using juice we get from the grid rather than juice we get from the gasoline. As we transition current hybrid vehicles from nickel hydride to lithium ion battery technology we are going to be able to plug-in the vehicle and get 50 to 75 miles between charges. This is a big deal because this is the distance of the average commute. And we don’t have to worry about running out of battery power because we still have the gasoline there to take over when we run the battery down.
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  #25  
Old 01-24-2012, 11:52 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
So this is an attitude problem, thank god. For a minute there I thought the scientists were saying we were f'ing with the atmosphere.
How are the 1% going to pay their obligations to the "99%" AND pay the Chinese and Africans and Indians and Vietnamese and Russians....etc...to stop using fossil fuels?

Can't? Oh.
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  #26  
Old 01-25-2012, 12:49 AM
handle handle is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
How are the 1% going to pay their obligations to the "99%" AND pay the Chinese and Africans and Indians and Vietnamese and Russians....etc...to stop using fossil fuels?

Can't? Oh.
Methinks you have me confused with those who make no efforts to transcend partisan horseshit.
This problem is real and we need a real TEAM (100%) approach to solving it. Did I say anything about cap and trade? NO.

What's your solution? Doubling down on denial like JonIrenicus? Don't like the ideas on the table? Come up with better ones!

I don't occupy, I endeavor to rectify. What do you do?
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2012, 02:51 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
Methinks you have me confused with those who make no efforts to transcend partisan horseshit.
This problem is real and we need a real TEAM (100%) approach to solving it. Did I say anything about cap and trade? NO.

What's your solution? Doubling down on denial like JonIrenicus? Don't like the ideas on the table? Come up with better ones!

I don't occupy, I endeavor to rectify. What do you do?
Instead of putting all your eggs in the solar frying pan, you research ways to ameliorate climate change. Seed clouds. Dust the upper atmosphere. Genetically engineer plants which absorb more CO2. Fast track nuclear plant construction.

Instead of garroting their young in their cribs and building houses on stilts for the survivors, the Dutch built dikes. Lets try that kind of approach before we adopt the lives of the Eloi.
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  #28  
Old 01-25-2012, 10:58 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Instead of putting all your eggs in the solar frying pan, you research ways to ameliorate climate change. Seed clouds. Dust the upper atmosphere. Genetically engineer plants which absorb more CO2. Fast track nuclear plant construction.

Instead of garroting their young in their cribs and building houses on stilts for the survivors, the Dutch built dikes. Lets try that kind of approach before we adopt the lives of the Eloi.
Before we start ameliorating we should figure out what is actually happening and how much concern we should have about what is happening. From what I have read we aren't even close and farther still from agreeing about what to do.
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2012, 01:02 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Instead of putting all your eggs in the solar frying pan, you research ways to ameliorate climate change. Seed clouds. Dust the upper atmosphere. Genetically engineer plants which absorb more CO2. Fast track nuclear plant construction.

Instead of garroting their young in their cribs and building houses on stilts for the survivors, the Dutch built dikes. Lets try that kind of approach before we adopt the lives of the Eloi.
Jesus, did you even read my posts? How 'bout we do what ever we can from all angles, like some of the stuff I mention in my posts and not use the dirtiest fuels we can get our hands on? Perhaps you could try to keep up with the discussion, and then roll in your trojan horse.

Added: Oh and "fast tracking' nuke plants sounds reckless, maybe you could rephrase that.
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2012, 01:18 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Before we start ameliorating we should figure out what is actually happening and how much concern we should have about what is happening. From what I have read we aren't even close and farther still from agreeing about what to do.
Looks like the far right has gone from total denial (hoax!) to questioning the degree of threat. Progress! Was it what you read, or maybe you've noticed some change up in them thar hills?
As far as what to do, we are already moving to hybrids and electrics. Fuel cells are not just on the horizon but already in beta testing. We will be rolling out nukes for the short term and scientists are researching the feasibility of CO2 scrubbers. And fresh perspectives in building science will greatly reduce consumption on the home and office front.
So you will be able to boast about your mileage and money savings without having to ever admit those culty lefty elitist windbags might have been right after all. Win - win.
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  #31  
Old 01-25-2012, 02:04 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by handle View Post
So this is an attitude problem, thank god. For a minute there I thought the scientists were saying we were f'ing with the atmosphere. And that cooking up oil sands was double bad. Boy was I wrong! More people, more stuff, don't be a defeatist bummer.
The attitude problem mainly effects policy, and the delusion is that the climate change incurred by global warming is the biggest thing we need to worry about. If that is what you believe then it makes much more sense to ignore the added costs of higher transportation costs, slower growth, and retarded development of the third world.

It would be one thing if we already had an alternative for our current transportation needs and it was mainly an issue of speeding up the process of switching people over to cleaner tech... I guess you can say hybrid subsidies are just that, but the real goal is zero emission transportation, and that is not here en masse yet.

You know that, all of you KNOW that, so why are you opposed to continuing to develop the infrastructure we still need to utilize? Getting this delayed was nothing more than a petulant protest vote against oil that serves no purpose but to make certain groups feel better about themselves. It does nothing to stop extraction of oil from the tar sands in Canada, it can't do that, because we still need oil.

And here is the truth the enviro catastrophe nutters cannot accept, the benefits we gain from utilizing oil, dirty and filthy that it is, FAR outweigh any problems with global warming and climate change in the foreseeable future.


Take a look at this Bill Mckibben interview:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...-bill-mckibben

a bit after the halfway point its mentioned that the alberta sands are the second largest pool of oil in the world behind Saudi Arabia. Bill says it made sense to go plunder the oil from Saudi Arabia before we knew about climate change but that to do that again would be crazy...

So let me get this straight Bill/rest of you enviro catastrophists. If we DID know about the impacts of climate change from burning oil back then, we would have been BETTER off by just leaving that oil in the ground? really?

That seems to be the thought process this man and many others have. And it's crazy.
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  #32  
Old 01-25-2012, 02:17 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post


Disagree. If they are going to do it, it's better to change the route. I bet it ends up happening. Also, of course, the idea that any significant number of jobs would result is basically fictional.

I actually don't think there would be a ton of new jobs created because of this pipeline, at least not permanent jobs. For me it was more about not being a negative - with some small upside on employment, so why be against it?

Quote:
Basic economics says that the price of something affects use. The supply affects price. If the effect is de minimis (as I expect), that simply indicates that the amount from greater production in the US RIGHT NOW (as with the drilling arguments) or from other forms of energy like this one aren't any kind of meaningful solution.

Note that the economic argument is also why there should be a carbon tax or the like, to address negative externalities. It has nothing to do with wanting to make us all live off the grid.
As long as they made some sort of revenue neutral carbon tax, I would not be opposed to that. You would get the same behavioral changing effect and increased financial incentive to switch to alternatives while not raising the cost of everything. Not sure how that would work for shipping freight with trucks though, raising that cost raises the cost of almost everything.

And you may not want us to live off the grid or oil, but if you follow the logic of some of the activities of the anti keystone people, they definitely give the impression they want us to STOP using oil or tapping into more oil as fast as possible.

That is a cold turkey approach, not a change behavior approach by altering prices, its a move to shut supplies off to force a change in behavior.
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  #33  
Old 01-25-2012, 04:09 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: SOPA, Keystone XL and NDAA

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Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
The attitude problem mainly effects policy, and the delusion is that the climate change incurred by global warming is the biggest thing we need to worry about. If that is what you believe then it makes much more sense to ignore the added costs of higher transportation costs, slower growth, and retarded development of the third world.

It would be one thing if we already had an alternative for our current transportation needs and it was mainly an issue of speeding up the process of switching people over to cleaner tech... I guess you can say hybrid subsidies are just that, but the real goal is zero emission transportation, and that is not here en masse yet.

You know that, all of you KNOW that, so why are you opposed to continuing to develop the infrastructure we still need to utilize? Getting this delayed was nothing more than a petulant protest vote against oil that serves no purpose but to make certain groups feel better about themselves. It does nothing to stop extraction of oil from the tar sands in Canada, it can't do that, because we still need oil.

And here is the truth the enviro catastrophe nutters cannot accept, the benefits we gain from utilizing oil, dirty and filthy that it is, FAR outweigh any problems with global warming and climate change in the foreseeable future.


Take a look at this Bill Mckibben interview:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...-bill-mckibben

a bit after the halfway point its mentioned that the alberta sands are the second largest pool of oil in the world behind Saudi Arabia. Bill says it made sense to go plunder the oil from Saudi Arabia before we knew about climate change but that to do that again would be crazy...

So let me get this straight Bill/rest of you enviro catastrophists
. If we DID know about the impacts of climate change from burning oil back then, we would have been BETTER off by just leaving that oil in the ground? really?

That seems to be the thought process this man and many others have. And it's crazy.
In case you haven't noticed, oil is not that cheap, and using less to achieve the same result is a cost savings and pollutant reduction, not to mention a foreign policy advantage.
I thought that was the goal.
But don't let me get in the way of your rants against "enviro catastrophists". I was merely stating that investing in this might backfire as the science behind the "nuts" just might make it unprofitable.
But you are the kind of guy that gains a hundred pounds after a warning from the doctor to lose some weight, 'cause you feel just fine, and eating nothing but fried foods for 50 years hasn't killed you yet. Not only that, but you are incensed by anyone who suggests even a moderate plan of action.
I'm saying let's get started on some diet and exercise, not "put down that cheeseburger now, or your gonna die!"
Like I told Badhat, the extreme anti-environut stance has moved from denial to acceptance, that's progress, but the day you have to turn your back on that fried chicken is still gonna be tough. Because it was sooo much easier to just let it find it's way down your gullet, and chase it with a big gulp and a nap on the couch. Now you'll have to plug in your car at night.
Yes we still gotta use oil, but how 'bout we do it a lot smarter? Wait, we already are, and the strides we are making are no thanks to your "attitude".
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Last edited by handle; 01-25-2012 at 05:24 PM..
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