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  #1  
Old 09-01-2011, 12:20 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

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  #2  
Old 09-01-2011, 01:18 AM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/384...9:57&out=50:20

The linked clip summed up this diavlog for me. Obviously I think it reflects well on Ms. McArdle and poorly on Mr. Fernholz, but I suspect many will hold precisely the opposite view.
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

It get a little old how much it is asserted that humility in what is knowable means we should do nothing. It's like there is some weighting function in conservatives that weights any harm done by the state 100 times more then any harm done by the market. I suppose you could reply with a rejoinder the same weighting function exists among the left but it weights harm done by private individuals more then the state. This is true I suppose, but that one is only 20 instead of a 100. :/
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  #4  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:12 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
It get a little old how much it is asserted that humility in what is knowable means we should do nothing. It's like there is some weighting function in conservatives that weights any harm done by the state 100 times more then any harm done by the market. I suppose you could reply with a rejoinder the same weighting function exists among the left but it weights harm done by private individuals more then the state. This is true I suppose, but that one is only 20 instead of a 100. :/
I just like people who want to make a trade much more then I do those who want to make a law. I trust them more too.

Hey, it could be because the guy who wants to make a trade is just a hell of a lot more humble.
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  #5  
Old 09-01-2011, 03:15 AM
jimM47 jimM47 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
It get a little old how much it is asserted that humility in what is knowable means we should do nothing. It's like there is some weighting function in conservatives that weights any harm done by the state 100 times more then any harm done by the market. I suppose you could reply with a rejoinder the same weighting function exists among the left but it weights harm done by private individuals more then the state. This is true I suppose, but that one is only 20 instead of a 100. :/
That's a conversation to have, perhaps, but it's not what the dispute was about. The issue is recognizing that outcomes are produced by the design of institutions, setting realistic expectations for those institutions, and making trade-offs in those institutions. Tim acts like by simply setting high expectations of an institution, you will get the outcomes you desire, and at no collateral cost.

I'm sure there are more and better things to be said in elaboration, but since it is late, I am just going to resort to argument by Game of Thrones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h94nCIYPgGs
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:25 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

That post wasn't suppose to be a reply to anyone. It was accidental that it turned out being a reply to you. My response was to the diavlog as a whole.
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2011, 03:47 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
It get a little old how much it is asserted that humility in what is knowable means we should do nothing. It's like there is some weighting function in conservatives that weights any harm done by the state 100 times more then any harm done by the market.
Which is correct. The reason is because the State operates in the name of all of us; the market is a collection of individuals cooperating without coercion. So if the state ruins my business because someone wants to "try something out", the effect is that we all ruined my business. More perversely, my taxes were used to ruin me. This is why crimes of the state are more heinous in anyone's estimation. It is worse for a politician or federal employee to steal from someone than a random thief to do the same act. It is an abuse of power we have entrusted in them.

No one has "entrusted" anything to a private actor. If a company chooses to dump radioactive waste in a child's playground (Which is how the left weighs things), it is that company which is the bad actor. It is the company which is ruining someone, or some business. And whats more, the company can be held accountable. The government cannot.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

I'm not worried the state is not going to have funds to cover something it screws up. I am worried private individuals will make large profits utilizing risky practices that are siphoned off into personal bank accounts leading to dummy-corporations not having the funds to cover something when it gets screwed up. That seems to me most of the point of LLCs and their limited liability.
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  #9  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:38 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
That seems to be most of the point of LLCs and their limited liability.
Most new businesses fail. It's supposed to be that way.
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  #10  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

I don't even care if LLC's exist. It's just a response to Sulla assertion that the state is usually held less responsible for it's actions then random business'.
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  #11  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:46 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
I'm not worried the state is not going to have funds to cover something it screws up.
Are you worried that the state crafts laws which can limit its liability if it screws up? Are you concerned that the state picks winners and losers in the market, and those winners usually end up being the people who contributed more to their political campaigns?

Quote:
I am worried private individuals will make large profits utilizing risky practices that are siphoned off into personal bank accounts leading to dummy-corporations not having the funds to cover something when it gets screwed up. That seems to me most of the point of LLCs and their limited liability.
It would seem to me that only the most extreme type of "screw up" would be thwarted by limited liability. And any example that extreme can be prosecuted in criminal court.
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  #12  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:57 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Are you worried that the state crafts laws which can limit its liability if it screws up? Are you concerned that the state picks winners and losers in the market, and those winners usually end up being the people who contributed more to their political campaigns?
Which is why I tend to support macro level policies in lieu of micro level policies. For example; I'm for a carbon tax. I'm against subsidies to particular green technologies. For macro policies that affect everyone the mechanism between money and outcomes is severed because macro policies affect everyone and make it hard for interests to line up together when everyone is against everyone. For instance when policies are set that affect the relative strength of the dollor I'm generally not worried that the relative funding from importers/exporters is what decided it.

It's sort of a free rider problem for bribers. It only makes sense to try and bribe your way to some policy if you can get everyone to pinch in. A few big players will never recoup their interests if they go in alone. This free rider problem isn't as prevalent for micro policies.
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  #13  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:05 AM
aajax aajax is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

The government cannot be held accountable? I think you may change your mind in November 2012.

Ron
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:25 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
It get a little old how much it is asserted that humility in what is knowable means we should do nothing.
Hayek: (in spirit)

Quote:
I don't want to do nothing, there's plenty to do. The question I ponder is who plans for who? Do I plan for myself, or leave it to you? ...
Quote:
People aren’t chess men you move on a board at your whim, their dreams and desires ignored. With political incentives, discretion’s a joke. Those dials are twisting – just mirrors and smoke. We need stable rules and real market prices so prosperity emerges and cuts short the crisis. Give us a chance so we can discover the most valuable ways to serve one another
.

or...

People aren’t chess men you move on a board
at your whim, their dreams and desires ignored.
With political incentives, discretion’s a joke.
Those dials are twisting – just mirrors and smoke
We need stable rules and real market prices
so prosperity emerges and cuts short the crisis.
Give us a chance so we can discover
the most valuable ways to serve one another
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Last edited by badhatharry; 09-01-2011 at 02:14 PM..
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2011, 01:50 AM
Hume's Bastard Hume's Bastard is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

I think the diavlog went south well before that, at this point.

This is Example #1 of bad form, and it's a shame Fernholz slammed on the brakes because the two were having a real disagreement at that point.
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2011, 03:31 AM
Romanized Romanized is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Tim's mad. Hope it's not because he got manhandled in his last appearance. Megan handled him like a petulant child. To think I felt sorry for him.

The naive insistance on the government's ability to part the oceans, or just "make it happen" hasn't been demonstrated here. Basically it's been proven false. It's ridiculous to use the bubble fueled 90's economy to demonstrate much of anything, especially this.

Tim never gets around to describing these well honed tools the Fed could use to end the recession or fix unemployment. He doesn't even acknowledge that monetary shenanigans can bring on the very thing he claims to be urgently concerned with. So the unemployment rate is 9.2%. Does your number scale stop there, or could unemployment skyrocket yet higher?

But as Tim would say, to hell with the raft of unemployed in five years. I want my 0.6% dip in unemployment now.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2011, 05:19 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
Tim's mad.
I'm trying not to read too much into it. He was pretty civil towards Kevin Williamson, even though Megan was a lot nicer in comparison. Maybe it's about lunch.
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  #18  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:21 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I'm trying not to read too much into it. He was pretty civil towards Kevin Williamson, even though Megan was a lot nicer in comparison. Maybe it's about lunch.
Maybe Kevin made him mad and it was his resolve never to get trounced again.

PS are his glasses fashionable?
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  #19  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:55 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
PS are his glasses fashionable?
Probably.
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  #20  
Old 09-01-2011, 01:12 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Maybe Kevin made him mad and it was his resolve never to get trounced again.
At first Tim was (to me) just another lib spouting fairly weak talking points. But the way he seems to just admit that even he doesn't believe the meme and that look he gets as his dialogue partner explains reality is starting to grow on me. It reminds me of the same look I've seen so many times from liberals I've talked to. It's the risk one takes venturing out of the cw cocoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
PS are his glasses fashionable?
Maybe on The Thunderbirds. I'm reminded of the line in a Woody Allen film (Love And Death mebbe) where he asks if he is really created in God's image, glasses and all. Diane Keaton replies: "not in those frames".
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  #21  
Old 09-01-2011, 01:55 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Booze and Money (Tim Fernholz & Megan McArdle)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
At first Tim was (to me) just another lib spouting fairly weak talking points. But the way he seems to just admit that even he doesn't believe the meme and that look he gets as his dialogue partner explains reality is starting to grow on me. It reminds me of the same look I've seen so many times from liberals I've talked to. It's the risk one takes venturing out of the cw cocoon.
Actually the only part I watched was Jim's link and Tim seemed quite frustrated and was talking over Megan. It reminded me of what was said about the other diavlog where Kevin was reportedly doing the same.

BTW, were you on 395 last week?
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  #22  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:23 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

Do you ever do anything that's not just, you know, asserting victory? What could compel someone to do virtually nothing but this hundred(s) of times over the course of years is beyond me. It's not interesting. It's not conductive to learning something. It's not even conductive of sharpening one's rhetorical skills.

You're like a kid at a basketball court who is always bragging but never joins any of the games.
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  #23  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:34 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
Do you ever do anything that's not just, you know, asserting victory? What could compel someone to do virtually nothing but this hundred(s) of times over the course of years is beyond me. It's not interesting. It's not conductive to learning something. It's not even conductive of sharpening one's rhetorical skills.

You're like a kid at a basketball court who is always bragging but never joins any of the games.
I think it's interesting. But you know me! Besides, it just may be that harkin actually has a life.
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  #24  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:37 PM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

Cause you know, pointless invective and hollow claims of "victory victory" are really indicative of just being a busy busy person.
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  #25  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:51 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
Cause you know, pointless invective and hollow claims of "victory victory" are really indicative of just being a busy busy person.
OK, let's examine this. It seems to me that harkin was making an observation about Tim's behavior during the diavlog. He was noticing (I think) that Tim was listening to Megan in a way that indicated that he might be having his mind changed and/or influenced and was a bit nonplussed. I appreciated this observation because I didn't listen to the diavlog. So far I have only listened to the link Jim provided which gave me an entirely different impression. I guess I didn't pick up on the invective you say harkin is displaying but as far as victory, I think it's fairly common to feel some of that when you think another person is seeing or at least considering your point of view.

But I do have a question. What is a cw cocoon?

And another one, do you never make quick snarky comments when you don't particulary agree with one of the diavloggers or other commenters?

I do have to say, I wish harkin would stick around more, but as I say...
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  #26  
Old 09-01-2011, 04:43 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJH71
Around 45:00 Tim starts switching his argument every time he opens his mouth. Megan refutes one statement, he instantly forgets what he was saying and moves onto a different argument, which she then refutes, and again he acts as though he had not said what he just said. This was not an equal match.
It's his normal pattern and I'm starting to like it (as I stated above) because it showcases a larger truth. It's right up there with the Ezra Klein tactic of being totally refuted and countering with his variation on 'that's what I was just saying' and changing subjects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
Do you ever do anything that's not just, you know, asserting victory? What could compel someone to do virtually nothing but this hundred(s) of times over the course of years is beyond me. It's not interesting. It's not conductive to learning something. It's not even conductive of sharpening one's rhetorical skills.

You're like a kid at a basketball court who is always bragging but never joins any of the games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
That post wasn't suppose to be a reply to anyone. It was accidental that it turned out being a reply to you. My response was to the diavlog as a whole.
I was going to write a reply but the second post was so extrordinarily weird (esp after the title of the first post) that I think they make a nice matching set and I will let them speak for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
Cause you know, pointless invective and hollow claims of "victory victory" are really indicative of just being a busy busy person.
One request: please wait for me to actually write "victory victory" before you claim I said it. I have to add that if I thought someone was really doing what you accuse me of the last thing I would be interested in doing would be responding to them. The fact that you were so interested in what I said that you delayed answering Sulla's very thoughtful post speaks volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry
I think it's interesting. But you know me! Besides, it just may be that harkin actually has a life.
I do have a life and BhTV is one of the sites where I try to check in at least once a day (when I'm somewhere I can access the net) to see what's being discussed and toss in my two cents if I feel the need. I said long ago that my comments were not for the Clique, they showed long ago they were not interested in sticking to a point where their arguments failed. Look at the response to Apple's recent criticism of Muslims taking underage brides, he was immediately accused of being a closet pedophile. No need to explore reality when you can hurl ad hominem.

I write what I write for the lurkers here so they can at least hear an alternative point of view which hopefully will break through the cw (conventional wisdom) cocoon that most are subjected to from the msm (and message boards stacked with liberals).

Remember a couple years ago when the cw was that the Tea Party was a flash-in-the-pan group of angry, racist know-nothings whose only mission was to keep America white and destroy the first black president? The 2010 elections and the debt ceiling talks (along with Obama's dismal performance and facts about public union salaries/benefits coming to light) helped expose the lie.

How about the Wisconsin protests against Scott Walker and the cw that corporate tool fascists were attempting an assault on the civil rights of union members? The unions were so exposed for their selfish thuggery that they hardly mentioned collective bargaining in their later unsuccessful recall drives. The facts are winning out (and oh yeah btw teacher's jobs are being saved and school districts are looking at balanced budgets). The people who claim the mantle of truthiness have been exposed as the weasels in the woodpile.

How about Obama's stimulus and his drive for green jobs where the cw was that Keynesian infusion of borrowed money to foster overpriced non-productive labor was just what the economy needed? That's now been exposed as taxpayer money being used to shore up public unions through the 2010 elections and paying off favors to political cronies. Obama's green jobs plan has failed so miserably that even the Huffington Post is criticizing it.

Part of that cw destruction was people like me making independent thinkers consider reality.

I'm not shouting 'victory', but those small gains against an entrenched statist machine are nothing to sniff at. What they are also are learning opportunities for anyone willing to absorb what was written and not just react with hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry
BTW, were you on 395 last week?
Only the few miles from the intersection of 270 (we came from Bodie/Aurora/Flying M Ranch via dirt roads) and then again from Topaz Lake to Hwy 89. All the rest was glorious dirt (and water in the Sweetwater Range)....so much fun. Hoping to get back out there before the snow flies.
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  #27  
Old 09-01-2011, 05:07 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
cw (conventional wisdom)
I have been wondering what that stood for.
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  #28  
Old 09-01-2011, 06:03 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I have been wondering what that stood for.
I kind of assumed that harkin simply hated teenage vampires and hot Asian female spies. Not to mention Tyra Banks.
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  #29  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:47 PM
Hal Morris Hal Morris is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

Quote:
CW = Conventional Wisdom.
Ah, so it's one of those things for people with a bit of a martyr complex or maybe I should say martyr schtick who always imagine they're fighting the overwhelming forces of ignorant orthodoxy -- like "MSM" or "PC".

Like Columbus proclaiming to the ignorant world that the earth is round. Oh, we love those moments -- "They laughed when I sat down at the piano".

Funny, that used to be a liberal vice/pose, but then the right has acquired all the vices of 60s "Underground newspaper" writers, without giving up any of their original vices in exchange.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:57 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

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Originally Posted by Hal Morris View Post
Ah, so it's one of those things for people with a bit of a martyr complex or maybe I should say martyr schtick who always imagine they're fighting the overwhelming forces of ignorant orthodoxy -- like "MSM" or "PC".

Like Columbus proclaiming to the ignorant world that the earth is round. Oh, we love those moments -- "They laughed when I sat down at the piano".

Funny, that used to be a liberal vice/pose, but then the right has acquired all the vices of 60s "Underground newspaper" writers, without giving up any of their original vices in exchange.
"Used to be" is an interesting way to describe it. Sounds like past tense. One wonders then about the liberals who pretend that any dissent on matters related to addressing climate change, or questions about its prime contributor, are the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, funded by a cabal of the "Powers That Be". Or liberals who pretend they're Civil Rights activists when passing a gargantuan health care program that few people like.

The only difference between the modern left and these guys is that these guys look like they're having more fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuTM_MmUlnY
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  #31  
Old 09-01-2011, 09:25 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: harkin, Harkin, ... HARKIN!

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
"The only difference between the modern left and these guys is that these guys look like they're having more fun:
Glenn Beck weeps a lot while talking about how Obama is doing his level best to destroy white people and Christians. I suppose some might consider him to be having fun, but it's not what people usually do when they're enjoying themselves.
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  #32  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:11 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Originally Posted by Hal Morris View Post
Ah, so it's one of those things for people with a bit of a martyr complex or maybe I should say martyr schtick who always imagine they're fighting the overwhelming forces of ignorant orthodoxy --
I've never bought in to the supposed qualities of martyrdom. They're usually celebrated by someone advocating policies with a history of failure and corruption. I guess however if you dangle the carrots of 70 underage virgins or immortality on revolutionary chic t-shirts, you may find a few takers among the less enlightened.

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Originally Posted by Hal Morris View Post
Funny, that used to be a liberal vice/pose, but then the right has acquired all the vices of 60s "Underground newspaper" writers, without giving up any of their original vices in exchange.
You mean like giving up self-reliance? And don't sell liberals short, they still promote vice and posing at expert levels.

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Originally Posted by myceelf
Whether the so-called cw was true or not, the 2010 elections and the debt ceiling talks would have done nothing to disprove it. Certainly, the tea partiers demonstrated truly historic levels of recklessness and irrationality. Whatever motivated that (racism or partisanship or just plain psychopathology), it certainly shouldn't have reassured anyone who was paying attention that they were behaving in good faith.
Here is a great example of the pockets of delusion that still inhabit the population. We have a president who has dawdled two and half years (two of those with his party in complete control of the Congress) and either ignored or exacerbated the problems of overspending, unemployment and corruption, who could not be bothered to interrupt his vacation but insisted that a joint session of congress was needed on the night of the Repub debates so Chairman Mulligan himself could once again showcase his ability to talk for over an hour and deliver zero substance (this time on the unemployment problem, the same problem he promised to work on with laser-like concentration last summer). When called out for his rudeness (on the speech timing), his excuse was that they hadn't considered the debate schedule and it was a complete coincidence. I'm not sure who should be ridiculed more, the administration that says it or the supporters who believe it (even some of the pundits on MSNBC tagged it for the BS it was). And this coming from a man who wants to deliver almost a tenth of the economy into the hands the statists who are currently bankrupting the country.......

I truly believe that the only reason Obama hasn't appointed a blue-ribbon commision to look into the problems of unemployment and a stagnated economy (with results and recommendations to be delivered after the 2012 election of course) is because nobody believes anything this guy says anymore and the glaring obviousness of the ploy would hurt his already cratering poll numbers. I even doubt most of the die-hard leftist idealogues believe him, but since they bought into the franchise in 2008 when he was just as vacuous, they really can't start complaining now, it would be too close to facing reality.

The current admin is the very essence of recklessness and irrationality. And yet the squeals from myceelf are directed at those who seek fiscal sanity, with the garnish that their motives are based in racism or craziness.........it's the only card they have left (they certainly can't counter with examples of his results) and even though it's been trumped repeatedly, they keep playing it.

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Originally Posted by myceelf
I kind of assumed that harkin simply hated teenage vampires and hot Asian female spies. Not to mention Tyra Banks.
I have no idea what the connection is but since it's apparently a pop culture reference I hope you'll allow me to observe that Starwatcher's post title reminded me of Dave Seville......and hula hoops.
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  #33  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:35 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I have no idea what the connection is but since it's apparently a pop culture reference I hope you'll allow me to observe that Starwatcher's post title reminded me of Dave Seville......and hula hoops.
Sorry, that was my attempt to show off the fact taht I still know people who are young and cool, even though I am no longer one of those people.

The CW is a television station that caters to teens, primarily, it seems, and features such shows as The Vampire Diaries, Nikita, and America's Next Top Model.
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  #34  
Old 09-02-2011, 12:36 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Sorry, that was my attempt to show off the fact taht I still know people who are young and cool, even though I am no longer one of those people.

The CW is a television station that caters to teens, primarily, it seems, and features such shows as The Vampire Diaries, Nikita, and America's Next Top Model.
Yikes no thanks - I'm not much of a TV watcher except for news, history, science (and sports!). I don't think I've watched a TV weekly drama regularly since The Sopranos (I tried Deadwood and The Wire but where I was promised excellence I found profound mediocrity) or a comedy since The Larry Sanders Show (I tried Curb Your Enthusiasm and Entourage, blech)

EDIT - forgot South park, love South Park.

And the now long-term trend of reality shows does nothing but make me lose hope for my fellow man, although the idea of having Bob Wright listen to Ezra Klein, David Corn, M Yglesias, Sarah Posner, Ana Marie Cox, Bill Scher and Tim Fernholz make their cases and then decide which ones deserve a BhTV rose might work.

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Finally, it's such an odd misspelling of my name, I have to ask- why?
Not "why? but 'Y'. A simple one-letter misspelling, maybe something to do with the word 'myself'. My bad and I'll try not to repeat.
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2011, 05:34 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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(I tried Deadwood and The Wire but where I was promised excellence I found profound mediocrity)
The Wire didn't get good until the 3rd season. Even so, I didn't really start appreciating how good it was until the 4th and took me until the 5th to consider it in my all time favorite series.

So, did you make it to the 3rd or 4th?


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Tim seems like a grouch. Forget about the Fed for awhile and go out and have some fun.
It's the lunch man. Who's not grumpy before lunch?
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  #36  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:12 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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The Wire didn't get good until the 3rd season. Even so, I didn't really start appreciating how good it was until the 4th and took me until the 5th to consider it in my all time favorite series.
In my opinion, The Wire is the best television series ever. From beginning to end.
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  #37  
Old 09-02-2011, 07:27 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
In my opinion, The Wire is the best television series ever. From beginning to end.
Agree: writing, acting, you name it, it was hot.
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  #38  
Old 09-03-2011, 10:33 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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In my opinion, The Wire is the best television series ever. From beginning to end.
I'm amazed at the amount of people who say that about shows like The Wire, Deadwood, Twin Peaks, even Carnivale. I'd use that term for something like I, Claudius or The Prisoner. The Wire struck me as Aaron Sorkin meets Michael Eric Dyson on steroids. I can't remember where but the best description of The Wire I heard was 'liberal porn'. Even taken at that level I still can't enjoy it as a guilty pleasure, it's just too obvious and to me obvious is the worst thing you can commit in drama.

Funny though that someone should say that it only got good in the third season. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about The Sopranos, where an original, entertaining and topical show became consumed with its own importance and sputtered to a halt in season five.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:10 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I'm amazed at the amount of people who say that about shows like The Wire, Deadwood, Twin Peaks, even Carnivale. I'd use that term for something like I, Claudius or The Prisoner. The Wire struck me as Aaron Sorkin meets Michael Eric Dyson on steroids. I can't remember where but the best description of The Wire I heard was 'liberal porn'. Even taken at that level I still can't enjoy it as a guilty pleasure, it's just too obvious and to me obvious is the worst thing you can commit in drama.

Funny though that someone should say that it only got good in the third season. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about The Sopranos, where an original, entertaining and topical show became consumed with its own importance and sputtered to a halt in season five.
I don't get the 'liberal porn' thing. I suppose if one thinks about it there may be some situations that reinforce a liberal world view, but I think I'm pretty sensitive to leftist messaging in movies and I didn't see that.

It's not that I thought any sort of 'gritty reality' was being portrayed either. I don't know since I have no experience with the inner city; I'm a country boy.

It was just great story telling, writing, acting, characters, etc.
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Old 09-03-2011, 06:59 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: martyrs, martyrs, ... MARTYRS!!

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I'm amazed at the amount of people who say that about shows like The Wire, Deadwood, Twin Peaks, even Carnivale. I'd use that term for something like I, Claudius or The Prisoner. The Wire struck me as Aaron Sorkin meets Michael Eric Dyson on steroids. I can't remember where but the best description of The Wire I heard was 'liberal porn'. Even taken at that level I still can't enjoy it as a guilty pleasure, it's just too obvious and to me obvious is the worst thing you can commit in drama.
I loved Carnivale and Deadwood, the later being a very realistic portrayal of our Western settlement.

I don't get your critique of the Wire though. The problems of the ghetto are shown to be the denizens themselves who terrorize their own neighbors and friends, and the race baiting vermin who profit on the suffering of these people.
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