Values Added: Terror in Norway (Michelle Goldberg & Michael B. Dougherty)

[Bloggingheads]

[DenvilleSteve]

in Europe and the US there is a large group of people who favor an immigration pattern which is changing the social makeup of their countries. An obvious question is why do they favor this policy? An obvious answer is they want to change the makeup of their society. Which is not very fair to the people who like their country and society the way it is and want to see it stay the same.

I think people have to act politically at the town and county level. Pass laws that say the people of the county are the ones who control their borders. To be a resident of the country you have to get approval. Put in place tariffs on imports from China.

To be practical you have to address things at the state level. The feds are causing so many problems for the people in the US. Setup a framework of what states can do on their own. Like control immigration. What they cannot do. Like prevent the passage of commerce and other traffic thru their state.

[Hal Morris]

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve

An obvious answer is they want to change the makeup of their society. Which is not very fair to the people who like their country and society the way it is and want to see it stay the same.

I think people have to act politically at the town and county level. Pass laws that say the people of the county are the ones who control their borders. To be a resident of the country you have to get approval. Put in place tariffs on imports from China.

To be practical you have to address things at the state level. The feds are causing so many problems for the people in the US. Setup a framework of what states can do on their own. Like control immigration. What they cannot do. Like prevent the passage of commerce and other traffic thru their state.

So counties should have tariffs on imports from China? and should control their borders? Sounds like we would have as many walls and fences as the Palestinian territories. Apparently you want to "change the makeup of [our] society" in unimaginably drastic ways -- which would not be fair to me who likes the country much more the way it is.

Or maybe (I can't quite tell) you have some 2nd thoughts about the country level, and only want to see militarized borders between states (that's what I think it would be called if you have border and border enforcement systems capable of preventing free passage).

[DenvilleSteve]

Originally Posted by Hal Morris

So counties should have tariffs on imports from China? and should control their borders? Sounds like we would have as many walls and fences as the Palestinian territories. Apparently you want to "change the makeup of [our] society" in unimaginably drastic ways -- which would not be fair to me who likes the country much more the way it is.

yes, the county level is not practical. But it is very unfair what downstate NY does to upstate. Western NY has no chance to develop its economy because of the level of taxation and social programs put in place by downstate voters.

As far as disappointing those who want the US to stay the way it is, do such people also want Canada and Mexico to be incorporated as an even bigger country? Are they disappointed that the UN does not have more authority? And if states and regions of the US could gain autonomy, then regions like the NorthEast could petition to become a part of Eastern Canada. That would be a lot of territory.

[DenvilleSteve]

the issue is, how do people who are concerned that immigration is disempowering them, taking their country away from them ( remember the cries of people at tea party rallys that they want their country back ), how do they peacefully and effectively make their views heard and yielded to?

Immigration is causing real problems in the US. The ballooning costs of the social safety net is possibly due to the ever growing non native population of the country. ( 9 or the top 10 zip codes for SSDI payments are in Puerto Rico. ) There are going to be shortages of natural resources in the world. The more people in the country the less we will be able to provide our own needs with renewable resources.

[chamblee54]

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve

The ballooning costs of the social safety net is possibly due to the ever growing non native population of the country. ( 9 or the top 10 zip codes for SSDI payments are in Puerto Rico. ).....

Puerto Rico is part of the United States.

Originally Posted by Freddie

Everything is already ideological; and even if it weren't, declaring something non-ideological is an inherently ideological statement.

Ideological is closely related to Idiot.

chamblee54

[DenvilleSteve]

Originally Posted by chamblee54

Puerto Rico is part of the United States.

I am presenting high SSDI payments to residents of Puerto Rico as a factoid that indicates that immigrant communities are consuming a lot of federal social safety net resources. I would be interested to see the employment rate of 2nd generation hispanics vs 1st generation. My guess is the 2nd generation consumes more federal money than the 1st.

[harkin]

Originally Posted by chamblee54

Puerto Rico is part of the United States.

Not exactly. It's not a country, it's not a state, it's a “low-tax regional center.”


"Microsoft has over 40,000 employees in the state of Washington in the United States. But they don't actually physically burn on to disks the software they develop. Instead, Microsoft, has a manufacturing plant in Puerto Rico employing 185 people that gets credited in Microsoft's books with a lion's share of Microsoft's Western hemisphere revenue and profits. It's making disks that's the really important thing that Microsoft does.

Despite all you've heard about Microsoft being a software company, they are actually a manufacturing company, at least for tax accounting purposes. To the IRS, Microsoft is basically a Puerto Rican, Irish and Singaporean industrial goliath with a money-losing R&D outpost in Redmond, WA."

[Hal Morris]

Why isn't it "the issue", and what does that mean anyway?

Originally Posted by DenvilleSteve

how do they peacefully and effectively make their views heard and yielded to?

Their views are being broadcast loud and clear. I hear them every day. As to how to have their views yielded to, there's no guarantee of that in a Democracy.

[Freddie]

Everything is already ideological; and even if it weren't, declaring something non-ideological is an inherently ideological statement.

Originally Posted by Freddie

Everything is already ideological; and even if it weren't, declaring something non-ideological is an inherently ideological statement.

That's like saying that being non-religious is inherently being religious, which is ridiculous.

[harkin]

While it's silly to think you can call Breivik a Christian Fundamentalist, he appears to have believed it, although he doesn't appear to have been shouting "body of Christ" as he slaughtered schoolkids in the manner that Islamic terrorists shout "Allahu Akbar" when they kill innocents. This is only one of the distinctions between his sick philosophy and the religion of peace.

He defintely appears to be much more political and anti-religion (Islam) then pro-Christian. I liken him much closer to Theodore Kaczynski, someone who doesn't like the way the world is changing and feels killing people is the best way to advertise his protest manifesto. You have to wonder if he even comprehends that he's not only set back his cause perhaps irreversably but also perhaps performed ignition for anti-sharia violence. Then again that also could be exactly what he wants.

Now that he's gone on his rampage, another real danger is the loss of the message on just how messed up and delusional the left in Norway is. I had no idea about the blatant anti-semitism or that:

"A couple of years ago, when Jørn Holme, head of security services for the Norwegian police, showed up at a meeting sponsored by the Muslim Students Association, supposedly to discuss terrorism, surveillance, and the Muslim community, his main goal seemed to be to bond with the Muslims in attendance by putting down ethnic Norwegians (who, he said, were “too stupid to understand that there is no connection” between Islam and terrorism) as well as white American Christians (“In the United States in the sixties,” he told the audience, “blacks were raped by whites who went to church the next day”). Holme called the United States “human-rights-violation-country number one”.

source

Interesting also is that (as far as I know) the only group to seek credit for his deeds was not Christian but Islamic (which also led many, me included, to falsely blame Islamists). It's even comical to see so many denounce those of us who did when there is a pretty good record of islamic terrorism and an Islamic group claimed credit. Compare that to Tea partiers being blamed for Tucson when there was no record at all of past crimes. I've heard even Sarah Palin has been named as an accomplice to Breivik.

Even more illustrative are media outlets who jump to label him a christian (the NYTimes did it in the first sentence) when their reports of Islamic terrorism acts never mention the religion.

Earth to Michelle, the people pointing out the problems with Islam and the Islamification of Europe did not create Brevik, Brevik created Brevik and the problems of Islam are solely the responsibility of Muslims.

[aajax]

Originally Posted by harkin

Earth to Michelle, the people pointing out the problems with Islam and the Islamification of Europe did not create Brevik, Brevik created Brevik and the problems of Islam are solely the responsibility of Muslims.

What problems of Islam are those?

[JonIrenicus]

Originally Posted by harkin

...
He defintely appears to be much more political and anti-religion (Islam) then pro-Christian. I liken him much closer to Theodore Kaczynski, someone who doesn't like the way the world is changing and feels killing people is the best way to advertise his protest manifesto. You have to wonder if he even comprehends that he's not only set back his cause perhaps irreversably but also perhaps performed ignition for anti-sharia violence. Then again that also could be exactly what he wants.
...

That part is the most muddled aspect of this event. What kind of mind thinks that slaughtering scores of your fellow citizens would get those same people on your side? It's as if he thought attention at any cost for his manifesto was the important thing.

Same thing with the unibomber, I just, I can't follow the logical line that sees this type of action as the best path to get your ideas adopted.


It's as stupid as muslims blowing up other muslims to convince muslims you have the right ideology...

I can't deal with that kind of stupid. It's too far gone for me to understand. But I am curious what he has to say for himself. As I would have been for the unibomber, and Nidal Hasan as well.

[badhatharry]

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

Same thing with the unibomber, I just, I can't follow the logical line that sees this type of action as the best path to get your ideas adopted.

ever thought of this? he's crazy!

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

It's as stupid as muslims blowing up other muslims to convince muslims you have the right ideology...

The aim is not to convince, the aim is to intimidate, though this probably does not apply to terrorists who randomly kill their co-religionists. Also, killing Muslims violates the tenets of Islam.

[harkin]

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

That part is the most muddled aspect of this event. What kind of mind thinks that slaughtering scores of your fellow citizens would get those same people on your side? It's as if he thought attention at any cost for his manifesto was the important thing.......

......I can't deal with that kind of stupid. It's too far gone for me to understand.

Now I'm hearing he was a lifter on steroids who loved World Of Warcraft and some TV show I guess where the hero is a vigilante serial killer.

I wonder how long it will be before the NYTimes changes the meme from 'fundamentalist christian forwards Atlas Shrugged goals' to 'juiced-up gamer emulates TV hero"

[trog69]

Compare that to Tea partiers being blamed for Tucson when there was no record at all of past crimes.

Are you really that delusional that you have already forgotten the rightwing terrorism done in the US just in the past 3 years? I have yet to hear one mush-headed "Conservative" admit that these actions occurred, much less temper their outrageous lies.

[Sulla the Dictator]

Mark Steyn is "full of shit" because a single, pro-Christian, right wing radical killed a bunch of people? Non-sequitur. Mike Dougherty needs to stop being such a punching bag in these talks. Is he supposed to be representing an ALTERNATE point of view, or just nod in moderate agreement with the main thrust of Goldberg's points?

[chamblee54]

Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator

Mark Steyn is "full of shit" because a single, pro-Christian, right wing radical killed a bunch of people?

Mr. Steyn needs more fiber in his diet.
I heard him on the Michael Medved show once. (Mr. Medved is equally constipated.) Mr. Steyn said that the Democrats had the banners and ribbons ordered for the defeat party. ( for the war in Babylon)
Part of the surge strategy has been happy talk in the press about how we "won" in Iraq. Before this, the idea was to blame the "Defeatacrats" for the conduct of the war. Mr. Steyn was an enthusiastic player, at least when he had a book to promote.
chamblee54

29:50 - Norway is a decent and generous place? Stealing from your hard-working citizens to reward indolents is not generosity, it is theft. Sure, Norwegians are a decent bunch, but I think that they're child-like in a grown-up world. The proper response to this horrible mass slaughter is to call for just retribution. Instead, Norwegian law apparently allows only for a maximum sentence of 21 years. This man will be guilty as hell and free as a bird in 21 years, after murdering God knows how many people. There is absolutely nothing decent about that, and I'm sure the parents of the young children who were murdered on this island would absolutely disagree about how wonderful it is to live in a country where you can slaughter 76 children and be out in 21 years.

I commend the Norwegian Prime Minister's call to maintain humanity, but mercy for miscreants like this man is not humane, it is in fact unjust. This man should be given the chair.

[Hume's Bastard]

So, now you would tell the Norwegians how to judge and conduct their affairs? Please, don't tell us you have a manuscript in your drawer, too!

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

So, now you would tell the Norwegians how to judge and conduct their affairs?

Not just the Norwegians. I tell everyone how they should judge and conduct their affairs. Including you. Some people can actually use their brain to come to conclusions about whether the Norwegians, or any other people, are managing their affairs correctly or not, as opposed to mindless moral relativists.

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Please, don't tell us you have a manuscript in your drawer, too!

I better not speculate about what kind of brain malfunction/meltdown/never had it to begin with led to this comment.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by apple

Not just the Norwegians. I tell everyone how they should judge and conduct their affairs. Including you. Some people can actually use their brain to come to conclusions about whether the Norwegians, or any other people, are managing their affairs correctly or not, as opposed to mindless moral relativists.

I better not speculate about what kind of brain malfunction/meltdown/never had it to begin with led to this comment.

Oh, those mythical moral relativists!

apple...Elmer Fudd! What's up, Doc!

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Oh, those mythical moral relativists!

Unfortunately, you are anything but a myth. Too uninteresting and insipid. And your morally relativist rant about people not having the right to tell Norwegians what to do is also not a myth, sadly.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by apple

Unfortunately, you are anything but a myth. Too uninteresting and insipid. And your morally relativist rant about people not having the right to tell Norwegians what to do is also not a myth, sadly.

Do tell us about moral relativism!

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Do tell us about moral relativism!

Why do I need to explain your (lack of) philosophy?

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by apple

Why do I need to explain your (lack of) philosophy?

Because I'd prefer you spend time here rather than try to outdo Breivik.

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Because I'd prefer you spend time here rather than try to outdo Breivik.

Put away the crackpipe, will you, kid? It's not good for you.

And yes, I just told you how to live your life (such as it is).

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by apple

Put away the crackpipe, will you, kid? It's not good for you.

And yes, I just told you how to live your life (such as it is).

I'm still waiting for the lecture on "moral relativism"! Can't do it, huh? That's a pity. You coulda been a contender!

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

I'm still waiting for the lecture on "moral relativism"!

And I'm still waiting for Mr. Incoherent to make some sense. Now that's something that's due to inability and not unwillingness, unlike my refusal to provide you with a proper education.

[Hume's Bastard]

Originally Posted by apple

And I'm still waiting for Mr. Incoherent to make some sense. Now that's something that's due to inability and not unwillingness, unlike my refusal to provide you with a proper education.

Or, a modicum of prudence - the authorities might be reading this. But, please [wink, pucker] try!

And, I've already made an argument, that Breivik is an anti-democratic conservative. What have you got?

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

Or, a modicum of prudence - the authorities might be reading this. But, please [wink, pucker] try!

I don't think you need to worry. If the authorities were after mental cases, you'd be a lifer by now. Or maybe they're just confident that you're so 'out there' that you'll follow in the footsteps of Peregrinus Proteus.

Here, to compensate you for the sad state you're in, I'll hand you what your heart most desires: a banana.

[Hume's Bastard]

You're so strong. I can't wait for the explosion!

Seriously, stop with the transference.

Originally Posted by Hume's Bastard

You're so strong. I can't wait for the explosion!

You need not worry. To paraphrase the emperor Vespasian, I do not care if dogs bark at me.

And please, seek treatment. In the meantime, please make sure that you don't hurt anyone else. If you hurt yourself, that's your right as a human being.

[bkjazfan]

Massive levels of immigration to the U.S. is a win-win for the 2 dominant politcal parties.

The republicans backed by the hospitality industry, manufacturers, and agribusiness, to name a few are for it.

The democrats with newly minted citizens who overwhemingly vote their ticket like it, too.

Of course, where it gets messy is dealing with the number of illegal immigrants in the country and what to do about their status. G W Bush couldn't pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform mustering only 46 votes of a 55 seat Democratic Senate and Obama chances are less than his.

[harkin]

Originally Posted by bkjazfan

The republicans backed by the hospitality industry, manufacturers, and agribusiness, to name a few are for it.

Both parties favor these industries, they are equally culpable. The dems just want to unionize them and syphon off part of their wages for campaigning.

Originally Posted by bkjazfan

The democrats with newly minted citizens who overwhemingly vote their ticket like it, too.

The problem though is the non-citizens who democrats will do eveything they can to register so they can vote illegally (not to mention numerous schemes of ACORN etc). Even the very reasonable request that they produce ID to vote and prevent fraud is called racist and an echo of Jim Crow as a dishonest tactic. You need ID to make many purchases, get on a plane etc and it has not yet returned us to the post-civil war south. States like Oregon issue drivers licenses to illegals so even this is not too big a hurdle.

[miceelf]

Originally Posted by harkin

The problem though is the non-citizens who democrats will do eveything they can to register so they can vote illegally (not to mention numerous schemes of ACORN etc).

It would be easier to take this seriously if there was even a bit of evidence that this actually happens, like, ever.

[Don Zeko]

Originally Posted by miceelf

It would be easier to take this seriously if there was even a bit of evidence that this actually happens, like, ever.

Exactly. If anyone on this site can provide an example of any US election in the past 40 years where proven cases of voter fraud exceed a thousandth of a percent of the vote total, I'll ask Bob to let me tape a DV in which I eat my hat while Ann Althouse monovlogs for an hour.

[AemJeff]

Originally Posted by Don Zeko

Exactly. If anyone on this site can provide an example of any US election in the past 40 years where proven cases of voter fraud exceed a thousandth of a percent of the vote total, I'll ask Bob to let me tape a DV in which I eat my hat while Ann Althouse monovlogs for an hour.

Heh! While you're at that, I'll stand at the same camera intoning "harkin was right about voter fraud, he knows the truth about ACORN!" to the melody of a Gregorian chant.