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  #41  
Old 12-20-2011, 11:25 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
War fever is a highly contagious disease that afflicts many otherwise healthy individuals after an outbreak like the one the US suffered in 2002.

It is transmitted, however, only verbally, by warmongering. The best immunization is total abstinence from justifying violence. Renounce violence, become a pacifist and obtain lifelong immunity.
I can't believe any adult can view the world this way.
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  #42  
Old 12-21-2011, 12:55 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
I can't believe any adult can view the world this way.
Substantive response, Sulla, as always.
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  #43  
Old 12-21-2011, 03:56 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Substantive response, Sulla, as always.
I'm sorry you don't approve, but you seem to be oblivious to the efficacy of violence. You seem to believe that defense instigates offense. Prayer wheels and good intentions have never stood up to a single enemy in human history.
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  #44  
Old 12-21-2011, 10:13 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
I'm sorry you don't approve, but you seem to be oblivious to the efficacy of violence. You seem to believe that defense instigates offense. Prayer wheels and good intentions have never stood up to a single enemy in human history.
Jan Christiaan Smuts. Edward Frederick Lindley Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax. The enemies of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
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  #45  
Old 12-21-2011, 10:19 AM
apple
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Jan Christiaan Smuts. Edward Frederick Lindley Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax. The enemies of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Who knows who those two people are - but let me just point out that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 didn't have its effect because people didn't use government coercion to enforce it.

You're referring to the non-violent struggle for civil rights, but it would have achieved nothing without others being (LBJ et al.) convinced to turn to force and coercion. Indeed, the non-violence of the blacks was a strategic choice, not a moral one.
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  #46  
Old 12-21-2011, 10:58 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Who knows who those two people are - but let me just point out that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 didn't have its effect because people didn't use government coercion to enforce it.

You're referring to the non-violent struggle for civil rights, but it would have achieved nothing without others being (LBJ et al.) convinced to turn to force and coercion. Indeed, the non-violence of the blacks was a strategic choice, not a moral one.
The first two were references to Gandhi in South Africa and the Salt Satyagraha. The question was in regard to "'Prayer wheels' and good intentions" never standing up to "a single enemy in human history." It was a silly, easily refuted assertion to which the MLK reference is entirely appropriate.
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  #47  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:38 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Jan Christiaan Smuts. Edward Frederick Lindley Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax. The enemies of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Illuminating. Yes, if you consider Western liberal states as the "enemy", both the United States and the Anglosphere, and countrymen no less, then certainly non-violence works. However, I was actually referring to a matter of foreign policy not civil agitation. It is fantastic that Americans refrain from annihilating black civil rights protesters. Not surprising to me, but perhaps to Wonderment or you. Try it in Syria. They'd be firing into crowds until the barrels of their machine guns melted.

The reason Gandhi is a demigod in the leftist pantheon is because the British didn't shoot him behind a shack somewhere in Delhi or Pretoria. Ask if the Germans would have been as reluctant. Or the Soviets.

The leftist pacifist response has all the hallmarks of an earnest, but spoiled child who sincerely asks why poor people don't get their parents to buy them food or clothing. Outside of this culture the world is a dark, and brutish place. The walls that the left is so busy pulling down around us were built with violence to spare us from making precisely the real world choices that will need to be made once you people succeed.
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  #48  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:54 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
Illuminating. Yes, if you consider Western liberal states as the "enemy", both the United States and the Anglosphere, and countrymen no less, then certainly non-violence works. However, I was actually referring to a matter of foreign policy not civil agitation. It is fantastic that Americans refrain from annihilating black civil rights protesters. Not surprising to me, but perhaps to Wonderment or you. Try it in Syria. They'd be firing into crowds until the barrels of their machine guns melted.

The reason Gandhi is a demigod in the leftist pantheon is because the British didn't shoot him behind a shack somewhere in Delhi or Pretoria. Ask if the Germans would have been as reluctant. Or the Soviets.

The leftist pacifist response has all the hallmarks of an earnest, but spoiled child who sincerely asks why poor people don't get their parents to buy them food or clothing. Outside of this culture the world is a dark, and brutish place. The walls that the left is so busy pulling down around us were built with violence to spare us from making precisely the real world choices that will need to be made once you people succeed.
To whom are you speaking Sulla? And, more importantly, what are you talking about and what does it have to do with what I said? I made a simple assertion of fact that this strange, ad hoc concatenation of random caveats and idiosyncratic opinion doesn't address in the slightest.
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  #49  
Old 12-21-2011, 05:14 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
To whom are you speaking Sulla? And, more importantly, what are you talking about and what does it have to do with what I said? I made a simple assertion of fact that this strange, ad hoc concatenation of random caveats and idiosyncratic opinion doesn't address in the slightest.
I was under the mistaken assumption that your reply was somehow relevant to what I said. I thought you were making a point. Was I wrong? Were we treated to a stream of consciousness? Were those names you listed titles of sections ON an actual prayer wheel?
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  #50  
Old 12-21-2011, 05:30 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
I was under the mistaken assumption that your reply was somehow relevant to what I said. I thought you were making a point. Was I wrong? Were we treated to a stream of consciousness? Were those names you listed titles of sections ON an actual prayer wheel?
You asserted an opinion. I made reference to factual data that showed what you said to be false. Your answer to that was off-topic.
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  #51  
Old 12-21-2011, 05:34 PM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
You asserted an opinion. I made reference to factual data that showed what you said to be false. Your answer to that was off-topic.
I said enemies. You spoke of intra-national disputes. I was addressing Wonderment's position on pacifism as a technique of statecraft. You bring up bus rides and love ins and Hindu marriages.

I believe it is you, my good man, who is off topic.
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  #52  
Old 12-21-2011, 07:59 PM
apple
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The first two were references to Gandhi in South Africa and the Salt Satyagraha. The question was in regard to "'Prayer wheels' and good intentions" never standing up to "a single enemy in human history." It was a silly, easily refuted assertion to which the MLK reference is entirely appropriate.
Not really, no. You're claiming for pacifism what was actually achieved by force. MLK didn't achieve anything on his own. Had there not been a government to coerce people into treating blacks as equal, they would not have done it. It's like saying that neoconservatives who agitated for the removal of Saddam Hussein are great heroes for pacifism - because they got Saddam removed without themselves firing a single shot. Others did that for them. Same goes for MLK.
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  #53  
Old 12-21-2011, 08:21 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Not really, no. You're claiming for pacifism what was actually achieved by force. MLK didn't achieve anything on his own. Had there not been a government to coerce people into treating blacks as equal, they would not have done it. It's like saying that neoconservatives who agitated for the removal of Saddam Hussein are great heroes for pacifism - because they got Saddam removed without themselves firing a single shot. Others did that for them. Same goes for MLK.
I don't think that's a fair characterization of the facts. MLK and the civil rights movement were directly responsible for creating the circumstances within which a huge change became possible. The 1964 legislation was unthinkable even fifteen years earlier. The force you refer to was law enforcement doing its job. It's a marker of the success of the movement that that became possible. The success of the movement was, by all accounts, in large part due to the wisdom of its leaders' choosing a strategy of non-violence. That has nothing to do with your analogy to neocons.
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  #54  
Old 12-21-2011, 08:29 PM
apple
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
I don't think that's a fair characterization of the facts. MLK and the civil rights movement were directly responsible for creating the circumstances within which a huge change became possible. The 1964 legislation was unthinkable even fifteen years earlier.
Possible, but not inevitable in any way. Much of the work was trying to integrate schools, which was also effected by government coercion - not by non-violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The force you refer to was law enforcement doing its job.
And invading Iraq is the army "doing its job" alright, but it's still violence. Again, the blacks themselves may have been non-violent, but to say that they got their civil rights through non-violence is a gross distortion. If government violence does not count as violence, then Saddam was removed by peaceful and pacifist means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
It's a marker of the success of the movement that that became possible. The success of the movement was, by all accounts, in large part due to the wisdom of its leaders' choosing a strategy of non-violence.
As I said, it's a strategic choice, not a moral one. MLK and others made a calculation about how they could best achieve their goal of equal rights for blacks, and concluded that non-violence was the best way. That's how it differs from Wonderment, who opposes violence, period.
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  #55  
Old 12-22-2011, 01:56 PM
kezboard kezboard is offline
 
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Default Re: RIP Christopher Hitchens

Quote:
Yes, if you consider Western liberal states as the "enemy", both the United States and the Anglosphere, and countrymen no less, then certainly non-violence works. However, I was actually referring to a matter of foreign policy not civil agitation. It is fantastic that Americans refrain from annihilating black civil rights protesters. Not surprising to me, but perhaps to Wonderment or you. Try it in Syria. They'd be firing into crowds until the barrels of their machine guns melted.

The reason Gandhi is a demigod in the leftist pantheon is because the British didn't shoot him behind a shack somewhere in Delhi or Pretoria. Ask if the Germans would have been as reluctant. Or the Soviets.
Are you going to praise the Czechoslovak communist regime for not physically liquidating Havel, too?
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