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  #1  
Old 07-16-2008, 09:39 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Under the Mattress

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  #2  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:15 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

Woo! Two of BHTV's best!

They should both agree to appear daily. ;-)
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:29 AM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default New Yorker Obama Cover

People Are Correct to Believe that Barack Obama is Half Muslim!

The New Yorker cover only makes sense as satire if they had the same cartoon but have Limbaugh and O’Reilly as the artists sketching the cartoon. That makes sense. The current cover would not look out of place in the Weekly Standard.

However, those who condemn American voters who believe that Barack Obama is at least "half Muslim" are silly and purposely naive.

In many places around the world, including some parts of the USA, your religion is part of your ethnic identity. In a real sense you are born Catholic, born Protestant, born Jewish, born Muslim. It is not a smear or a plot.

In Bosnia if a Muslim family converts to a Catholicism, many in Bosnia, including Muslims, Catholics or the Orthodox would still see them as "Muslims".

In Northern Ireland, if someone converts to Buddhism and is stopped by thugs in a dark alley, here's how the conversation could go:

Thug: Are you Catholic or Protestant?
Victim: I am Buddhist!
Thug: Are you a Catholic Buddhist or Protestant Buddhist?

Being a Buddhist in this situation is not going to stop you from being knee-capped.

The Weekly Standard, home of the "Neo-Con Conspiracy" has, as one of its writers a Suffi Muslim whose name is ... wait for it ... Stephen Schwartz. Apparently Schwartz is half Jewish and was raised in a secular environment, so according to him... he was never Jewish. Tell it to the Marines ... most people in the US as well as the immigration officials for the State of Israel (for obvious reasons) still recognize him as half Jewish.

Obama's task it to convince ordinary Christians and Jewish Americans that the religion of his birth, Muslim, will not affect his loyalty to his current religion, Christianity, or to that of his country.

Given that Barack Obama's father abandoned him while he was still a child ... it should not be too hard a task.
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:48 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
People Are Correct to Believe that Barack Obama is Half Muslim!
This is like saying that I'm half Republican, because one of my parents was a Republican, even though I'm a Democrat and have been my entire adult life.

What's your motive for trying to get people to perceive Obama as a Muslim?

Could it be his position on Macedonia/Greece?

Last edited by TwinSwords; 07-16-2008 at 10:55 AM..
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:06 AM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

My observation is that religion is part of your ethnic identity. I do not believe that Obama is currently a Muslim, but he was "born" half Muslim ... by definition.

It is easier to understand with Jewish people. "Gregory Baum, an Augustinian priest born an Orthodox Jew" is still considered to be a Jew, by many Jews, notwithstanding his conversion to Catholicism. (http://www.fisheaters.com/jewsvaticanii.html)

When people consider Obama to be "half Muslim" it is the same thing. Not a smear, not a plot ... just a fact.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:11 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
My observation is that religion is part of your ethnic identity. I do not believe that Obama is currently a Muslim, but he was "born" half Muslim ... by definition.

It is easier to understand with Jewish people. "Gregory Baum, an Augustinian priest born an Orthodox Jew" is still considered to be a Jew, by many Jews, notwithstanding his conversion to Catholicism. (http://www.fisheaters.com/jewsvaticanii.html)

When people consider Obama to be "half Muslim" it is the same thing. Not a smear, not a plot ... just a fact.
In a place like Kosovo, ethnicity and religion may be connected, but this is the United States, and in the United States there is no assumption that blacks are Muslims: Islam is not wedded to the "ethnic identity" of African Americans.

It just isn't.

The only way people will ever make such a connection is with people like you actively promoting it.

You know the rumors you're spreading are damaging to Obama. So let me ask you: What's your motive for trying to hurt him?
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:44 AM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

I agree that African Americans in the United States are not Muslims.

However, Obama's father was a Kenyan who himself was "born Muslim", even though Obama said his father was "secular" (read atheist).

I do not believe that religion is wedded to your ethnic identity, but many people do, and what I am trying to say is that it is a fact of life and Obama needs to address it.

If I were a Muslim, I would be pro-Obama because of the residual feeling that Obama may have for the religion of his father.

If I were Jewish, I have a right to be concerned because of the residual feeling that Obama may have for the religion of his father.

that's a fact.
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:10 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
I agree that African Americans in the United States are not Muslims.

However, Obama's father was a Kenyan who himself was "born Muslim", even though Obama said his father was "secular" (read atheist).

I do not believe that religion is wedded to your ethnic identity, but many people do
And again, you're flat wrong. The whole point of your post was that in some places, there is an automatic assumption that a particular religion is connected to a particular ethnicity. But your point fails spectacularly, because in America there is no assumption whatsoever that black people are Muslim — even when one of their parents is from the African nation of Kenya.

Why don't you just be honest about what you're really trying to do, which is to spread fear and uncertainty about Obama by suggesting he's a Muslim?

I'm still curious what motivates your slimy smear tactics. Is it really the Greece/Macedonia thing you talk about on your blog?




Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
I am trying to say is that it is a fact of life and Obama needs to address it
Your concern trolling is noted. If you were the least bit sincere, you would acknowledge that Obama has addressed it extensively, and will continue doing so — thanks to people like yourself.
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  #9  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:33 PM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Obama's position on the the Macedonian/Greek issue ( Oprah, Obama Will Disappoint You) has nothing to do with it.

I am just making an obvious observation.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2008, 05:11 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
Obama's position on the the Macedonian/Greek issue ( Oprah, Obama Will Disappoint You) has nothing to do with it.

I am just making an obvious observation.
Nice job getting hits for your blog. You could just put a bunch of key words together and have all of them be links.
If you aren't just trying to get hits, or not on a smear campaign, then why even post your obvious observation?
I realize that the U.S. is a great melting pot, but I have to doubt someone has really been here very long if they can entertain the notion that Oprah would tolerate being disappointed by anyone. Just do a search for "James Frey".

Last edited by handle; 07-16-2008 at 05:20 PM..
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  #11  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:10 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post

that's a fact.
No, that there is ignorant tribalism - and that is a fact.
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:05 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post

You know the rumors you're spreading are damaging to Obama. So let me ask you: What's your motive for trying to hurt him?

Oh, I doubt it hurts much,... sounds pretty darned "tin eared" to me. Like Borat on the campaign trail.

But my guess is that this flap does hurt the status of Muslims in our government, especially in appointed positions...
I'd hate for them to think that there is a "glass ceiling" above which they cannot be promoted. And it seems like we need to motivate more Muslims to serve in our government, not fewer.
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  #13  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:13 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Oh, I doubt it hurts much,... sounds pretty darned "tin eared" to me. Like Borat on the campaign trail.
It's hard for me to evaluate how much it hurts Obama. But judging from some news I've read, the rumors have penetrated quite deeply into certain demographics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
But my guess is that this flap does hurt the status of Muslims in our government, especially in appointed positions...
I'd hate for them to think that there is a "glass ceiling" above which they cannot be promoted. And it seems like we need to motivate more Muslims to serve in our government, not fewer.
Why do you feel we need more Muslims in our government?
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  #14  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:47 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Why do you feel we need more Muslims in our government?
Hmmm. This doesn't seem like a controversial point of view, but perhaps it is.


Let's start with the assumptions that we will have continued entanglements in the Middle East, and that there will be ongoing concerns about international terrorism for the near future.

Any attempt to address these concerns will require certain linguistic and cultural resources that often overlap with people who are of the Muslim faith.

Not to mention the rather poor optics of government vans surveilling mosques. I'm not that smart about counterterrorism, but that seems to be a stratagem that bought us little intelligence and a lot of acrimony.

Last edited by Chef; 07-16-2008 at 12:48 PM.. Reason: misspelling
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  #15  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:07 PM
JoeK
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Hmmm. This doesn't seem like a controversial point of view, but perhaps it is.


Let's start with the assumptions that we will have continued entanglements in the Middle East, and that there will be ongoing concerns about international terrorism for the near future.

Any attempt to address these concerns will require certain linguistic and cultural resources that often overlap with people who are of the Muslim faith.

Not to mention the rather poor optics of government vans surveilling mosques. I'm not that smart about counterterrorism, but that seems to be a stratagem that bought us little intelligence and a lot of acrimony.
If children of Muslim immigrants follow Obama's example, abandon their heritage, convert to atheism, or Christianity - whatever, they shouldn't have any problems getting positions in American government. Hell, they might even run for President one day. So, if we forget the whole Black Nationalism thing, Obama's role model if understood properly could do a lot of good for both immigrants and for America.

BTW, how about avoiding foreign entanglement as a strategy for solving the problem of shortage of Muslims among CIA agents?

Last edited by JoeK; 07-16-2008 at 01:12 PM..
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  #16  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:24 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
BTW, how about avoiding foreign entanglement as a strategy for solving the problem of shortage of Muslims among CIA agents?
Forgive me, but I'm real new here. I'm also a right winger on the BHTV message boards (which doubles my paranoia).

But I hear you talk about Muslim kids converting to Christianity, that we need to forget the "whole Black Nationalism thing" and let's just "avoid foreign entanglements".

So can I just ask whether you are really serious or are you just pulling my leg?
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  #17  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:32 PM
JoeK
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Forgive me, but I'm real new here. I'm also a right winger on the BHTV message boards (which doubles my paranoia).

But I hear you talk about Muslim kids converting to Christianity, that we need to forget the "whole Black Nationalism thing" and let's just "avoid foreign entanglements".

So can I just ask whether you are really serious or are you just pulling my leg?
I think all those positions are consistent with paleo-conservatism. I am for non-interventionist foreign policy and don't appreciate multiculturalism. Oh, and I am also immigrant, which means that I am emotionally not really an American, but my children will be 100% Americans, which makes me different from Obama who went out of his way to cultivate in his children national identity separate from mainstream American identity (that's why he joined the racist church).
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  #18  
Old 07-16-2008, 02:14 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
I am for non-interventionist foreign policy and don't appreciate multiculturalism. Oh, and I am also immigrant, which means that I am emotionally not really an American.
Well, let me suspend judgement on that one, as I highly doubt that being an immigrant precludes you from being "emotionally American".

However, it's interesting that when I mentioned the need for greater linguistic and cultural resources for both counterterrorism and foreign affairs, you assumed I was speaking code for "CIA agents."
That's a tad cartoonish, wouldn't you say?

But in what way do you want our international policy to be non-interventionist? Wouldn't a traditional paleo con want us to make a much larger investment in so-called "soft power". That is, wielding economic, political, and cultural ties in lieu of military bases to empower the US's friends and undermine our enemies?

Those same cultural and linguistic resources are still critical, even if you're using so-called "soft power" rather than more direct intervention.

Let me also note that much of the criticism from the paleo Right about our intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan has been precisely this: that our government did not bother to understand the cultures and political realities in these target countries prior to invasion. This viewpoint is, in a sense, the conservative face of multiculturalism.

Last edited by Chef; 07-16-2008 at 02:14 PM.. Reason: left out a word
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  #19  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:01 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
... But judging from some news I've read, the rumors have penetrated quite deeply into certain demographics...
Rumors about rumors. That's some elevated conceptualizing.
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  #20  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:14 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Rumors about rumors. That's some elevated conceptualizing.
Rumors about rumors? What exactly are you talking about? I don't recall saying anything about "rumors about rumors."
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  #21  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee Abu Noor Al-Irlandee is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

David Edenden,

Just so you know, actual Muslims DO NOT think of Obama as half-Muslim.

In fact, the only people who do seem to think that Obama is Muslim or half-Muslim are people who both do not like Muslims and do not like Barack Obama.

http://abunooralirlandee.wordpress.com
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:29 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu Noor Al-Irlandee View Post
Just so you know, actual Muslims DO NOT think of Obama as half-Muslim.

In fact, the only people who do seem to think that Obama is Muslim or half-Muslim are people who both do not like Muslims and do not like Barack Obama.
Oh, you and your stubborn insistence on facts! ;-)
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:31 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Except he offers no facts just his own suppositions.
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:24 AM
creativepig creativepig is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
The New Yorker cover only makes sense as satire if they had the same cartoon but have Limbaugh and O’Reilly as the artists sketching the cartoon. That makes sense. The current cover would not look out of place in the Weekly Standard.
This is precisely the (affected?) misunderstanding surrounding the entire issue. The cover is not satirising Barack Obama, the cover is satirising The Weekly Standard. Dan feels ambivalent that the joke relies on the New Yorker's demographic, and indeed Jonah Goldberg echoes your comment almost exactly. Why would it be different if right-wing pubilcations ran the same cover? Because they are right-wing publications which are propagating these absurdities.
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  #25  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:26 AM
JoeK
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Thumbs up Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
In many places around the world, including some parts of the USA, your religion is part of your ethnic identity. In a real sense you are born Catholic, born Protestant, born Jewish, born Muslim. It is not a smear or a plot.
Amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Edenden View Post
In many places around the world, including
In Northern Ireland, if someone converts to Buddhism and is stopped by thugs in a dark alley, here's how the conversation could go:

Thug: Are you Catholic or Protestant?
Victim: I am Buddhist!
Thug: Are you a Catholic Buddhist or Protestant Buddhist?

Being a Buddhist in this situation is not going to stop you from being knee-capped.
Yeah, but let's be real here: Westerners who converted to Buddhism deserve to be knee-capped.
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  #26  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:37 AM
David Edenden David Edenden is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Good point!
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2008, 04:47 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
Yeah, but let's be real here: Westerners who converted to Buddhism deserve to be knee-capped.
Yeah, 'an ets git dem faggots too! ooops I fergot! Theys the same!! heh heh! yeeeehaaaaaa! Back up the truck Hoss!

Aaawww PAH! we 'uns was jist funnin'! They 'uns was askin fer it!!!

I thought you weren't "emotionally American".... you'll fit right in.

Last edited by handle; 07-16-2008 at 05:15 PM..
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2008, 05:51 PM
JoeK
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Talking Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
Yeah, 'an ets git dem faggots too! ooops I fergot! Theys the same!! heh heh! yeeeehaaaaaa! Back up the truck Hoss!

Aaawww PAH! we 'uns was jist funnin'! They 'uns was askin fer it!!!

I thought you weren't "emotionally American".... you'll fit right in.
Thanks! I certainly hope so.

That reminds me of something else. What happened with West Virginians?
They were all the rage during the primaries, yet today they are all but forgotten. It would be nice if bloggingheads.tv had some West Virginian bloggers on.
Those people seemed like lots of fun.
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:23 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeK View Post
Thanks! I certainly hope so.

That reminds me of something else. What happened with West Virginians?
They were all the rage during the primaries, yet today they are all but forgotten. It would be nice if bloggingheads.tv had some West Virginian bloggers on.
Those people seemed like lots of fun.
LOL. I assume you mean the news clip people saying they'd "had enough of Hussein"?
I wouldn't want to generalize about an entire state.
My observation has been that while not everyone gets their 15 minutes in the spot light, it is usually never much more than just 15 minutes. Even if it's helping paint a candidates supporters as ignorant and racist.
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:30 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
[...] Even if it's helping paint a candidates supporters as ignorant and racist.
And don't forget incestuous, pace our Vice President.
__________________
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  #31  
Old 07-16-2008, 06:36 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: New Yorker Obama Cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
And don't forget incestuous, pace our Vice President.
Good point, maybe they are good for another 15 minutes...
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:40 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Edenden on Obama

David Edenden has 18 posts on his blog about Barack Obama's position on the Macedonia/Greek conflict. Read a few of his posts, and it becomes instantly clear why he has picked up and run with this Obama is a Muslim smear.

Some choice quotes:

Quote:
Nato to Macedonians:You're the "******s of the Balkans"!

It appears that the Greek government is going to be successful in vetoing Macedonian membership for Nato. Anyway we look at it, this is a huge setback for Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

Quote:
"Obama's support for Greek racism is so f***ing banal and so g***amn evil."

Quote:
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Obama. and Rice discuss Macedonia and Greece. Would both of them be embarrassed or ashamed because ... you know ... Macedonians are the "******s of the Balkans".

Upon reflection, I don't think so. Obama and Susan Rice are like lawyers who defend Mafia bosses, without a second thought, because that is their designated role in the criminal justice system.

Quote:
"The mistreatment of ethnic Macedonians in Greece is the inspiration for every racist, every fascist and every ethnic cleanser in the Balkans ... I'm talking to you Samantha Power!"

Quote:
Last August, three US senators including presidential candidate Barack Obama introduced a resolution to the US Senate (S. Res. 300), endorsing the Greek-nationalist bullying of the Republic of Macedonia. This resolution raises serious concerns about whether an Obama presidency would pursue a responsible policy vis-a-vis the Balkans.

Quote:
"This is an update to my last post regarding Samantha Power who is on the board of the International Crisis Group (ICG), which is a front for an unmentionable secret organization and is lead by a kangaroo f!#ker. No report has ever appeared from the ICG regarding the the lack of rights for Macedonians in Greece. So you know that our friend Sam has the moral flexibility to work in an Obama White House where a select group of people get to pick and choose who gets the elevator and who gets the shaft."

Quote:
To: Oprah Winfrey
From: David Edenden

Dear Oprah, like many men in your life, Obama will disappoint you ... because you see ... he is not really promising a "new kind of politics", but he is a "business as usual" ... "pay to play" ... "pandering politician".

Obama has supported the Greek oppressor, in the Macedonia - Greek "name" dispute over the the right of ethnic Macedonians to determine their own ethnic identity. He has pandered to the Greek lobby for the purpose of gaining votes and donations at the expense of human rights.

Quote:
David Edenden - My Pseudonym

My family is from Aegean Macedonia. I still have relatives there and revealing my identity could make their lives difficult. Some of my family in Greece have "come out" and are struggling for human rights, but others are still live in fear.

One day (eden den) all Macedonians in Greece will be able to live without fear.

After 17 posts like this, he finally hits on the idea to tar Obama as a Muslim.


All quoted material from David Edenen's blog.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 07-16-2008 at 12:47 PM..
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:06 AM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

You could run Abraham Lincoln and they wouldn't vote for him. Except that President Lincoln was a Republican so those 25% of Americans that wouldn't vote for a Democrat would defiantly vote for Abraham Lincoln. On a more serious vein is there not a greater percentage of Democrats that would not vote for a Republican even if it were Abraham Lincoln.
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2008, 07:49 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
You could run Abraham Lincoln and they wouldn't vote for him. Except that President Lincoln was a Republican so those 25% of Americans that wouldn't vote for a Democrat would defiantly vote for Abraham Lincoln. On a more serious vein is there not a greater percentage of Democrats that would not vote for a Republican even if it were Abraham Lincoln.
Since you've opened the floor to speculation (or the vloggers did), I would speculate that at least 50 percent of all Americans would go donkey this time regardless of the nominee, just because of the damage the Pubs have sustained as a result of embracing the neocons. And I don't think Mccain is going to be able to get that stain off his flag pin before November.
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2008, 09:37 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
just because of the damage the Pubs have sustained as a result of embracing the neocons.

I don't understand what you're saying here about him burnishing a stain off his flag pin... isn't the hallmark of neoconservatism a strong interventionist foreign policy based on freedom and democracy promotion.

Coupled to this would likely be a disinterest in domestic fiscal and social conservatism.
Movement neocons were often associated with American Enterprise Institute and Weekly Standard, right?

So given all the above, how is McCain not the poster child for neoconservatism? I mean, all the people you're probably referring to as "neocons" were McCain fans back in 2000.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2008, 03:09 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
I don't understand what you're saying here about him burnishing a stain off his flag pin... isn't the hallmark of neoconservatism a strong interventionist foreign policy based on freedom and democracy promotion.

Coupled to this would likely be a disinterest in domestic fiscal and social conservatism.
Movement neocons were often associated with American Enterprise Institute and Weekly Standard, right?

So given all the above, how is McCain not the poster child for neoconservatism? I mean, all the people you're probably referring to as "neocons" were McCain fans back in 2000.
You are correct in calling me on this. Your definition of the neo-con movement is almost Wikipedia-like in a historical and ideological sense.
The term as I have erroneously coined it, as refering to the original gang of Bush cabinet occupiers, such as Wolfowitz (neo-con) Rummy (Con., in at least two senses, IMHO) and Cheney (?!) has been misused, and I am guilty of perpetuating the misuse.
Has Bushwacko's been used? (I kid... sort of)
That said, my point is that Mccain's efforts, or the lack thereof, to distance himself from what, according to the polls, is rapidly becoming one of the most unpopular administrations in our history, look to me to be too little, and too late.
If your "poster boy" assertion is true, I suspect "strong interventionist foreign policy" will not resonate with a substantial portion of the electorate this fall.

Last edited by handle; 07-17-2008 at 03:11 PM..
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2008, 05:51 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handle View Post
You are correct in calling me on this. Your definition of the neo-con movement is almost Wikipedia-like in a historical and ideological sense.
I feel simultaneously complimented and slammed.

I'm not keeping up with the campaign news. much. But seeing McCain as anything other than a neocon just seems a real stretch. I'll probably end up voting for him, but all the "neocons" you mentioned, except for Rumsfeld, seem like younger clones of McCain.

Is McCain often perceived as something other than a standard-issue neocon?
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:02 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Not Real America, according to St. Sa®ah
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

Chef:

Quote:
I'll probably end up voting for him ...
Can you say why, specifically, you think you'll vote for McCain? I'm not looking to shoot down your reasons, it's more just curiosity.
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:32 PM
Chef Chef is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
Chef:



Can you say why, specifically, you think you'll vote for McCain? I'm not looking to shoot down your reasons, it's more just curiosity.
Aren't there always a myriad of reasons? Hard to pick, but here's just a few:

1) Mitt Romney
2) I think our military's way too tiny for our global commitments.
3) No more signing statements.
4) Randy Barnett's writings on the commerce clause, and Obama's comments about same.
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:53 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heartland Conservative
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Default Re: Under the Mattress

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
the commerce clause
Care to elaborate? What, specifically, does the modern interpretation of the commerce clause allow that you wish it didn't?
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