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  #41  
Old 05-19-2011, 03:37 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Until we know whether there was a rape, there is no point in carrying on this discussion.
And once that is determined there won't be any need for discussion either. The guy will go to jail or be released and that will be it.
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  #42  
Old 05-19-2011, 03:49 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
You didn't think "infinite sadness" was substantial?

Free Internet make-believe publicist advice: If you don't want your sex crime to sound pathetically narcissistic and hideously megalomaniacal, avoid the adjective "infinite" to describe your emotions.
I didn't think there was much wrong with saying that he was that sad about having to resign his position.

Not that it matters for this point, but just because I said earlier that there was nothing of substance under the headline, I do want to point out that what was once just a couple of paragraphs at that link has been considerably fleshed out in the hours since I first posted it.
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  #43  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:29 PM
ohreally ohreally is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

BHL is the darling of francophobes. The guy is so easy to loathe: a narcissistic, self-satisfied, androgynous buffoon oozing mediocrity and intellectual fraud. Worse, he thinks of himself as a "philosophe engag'e"... like Voltaire. Make that a triple "Oy."
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  #44  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Viperine Mollie doesn't miss a chance to pass some unrelated criticism to everything left. If one doesn't stick, she moves on to the next. She couldn't refrain from making a comment about what DSK expends on hotels or what monies are made available to him for business related expenses. As if it was of any importance for this diavlog.

It needs to be emphasized that there's a big difference between extramarital affairs and crimes such as rape or sexual assault. We shouldn't mud the waters by discussing both at the same time. Having committed a crime is relevant to political standing and a topic that merits discussion. But someone's personal life is, in the opinion of many, and as proven by reality and history, irrelevant to their skills as political figures.
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  #45  
Old 05-19-2011, 06:52 PM
ledocs ledocs is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

I did watch this dv. I have not read the BHL piece. My primary objection to the interlocutors' treatment of the DSK arrest is only that it seemed to regard this BHL piece as typical of the French reaction to the arrest. That, I think, is preposterous, but I do not intend to do a survey of French media treatment of the DSK affair. However, I have just posted something about this at my blog:

www.ledocs.net

I had a little interchange about DSK and his sex life in this forum several months ago:

http://bloggingheads.tv/forum/showpo...5&postcount=36

My superficial impression about the history of DSK's alleged problem with making unwanted advances was influenced by reading the following article in "Liberation" in the past few days:

http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/...e-strauss-kahn

However, we will certainly have to await the testimony of the principals and of others, forensic experts and so on. My hope would be that, if the accuser has a strong case, DSK can negotiate a decent plea bargain.
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  #46  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:32 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
My primary objection to the interlocutors' treatment of the DSK arrest is only that it seemed to regard this BHL piece as typical of the French reaction to the arrest.
Good point. It's a pity that BHL gets so much attention. He first came to my attention as a apologist for Israeli atrocities, then as an apologist for Polanski, then as an apologist for war on Libya, and now as an apologist for DSK. That's 4 strikes against him in my book.

I have no idea why he has become a darling of American media, much less a stereotype for a French boor.

The Althouse-Welsh dialogue was quite obnoxious in making fun of the French, including mind-boggling generalizations by Welsh about French woman and a crude mocking of a French-accent.
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  #47  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:38 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by ledocs View Post
However, we will certainly have to await the testimony of the principals and of others, forensic experts and so on. My hope would be that, if the accuser has a strong case, DSK can negotiate a decent plea bargain.
Here's the thing I have learned from watching years and years of Law and Order. If the accuser has a strong case, they don't need to offer a plea bargain. It's when the prosecution case is weak that deals are offered. However, if DSK wants to plead guilty before the trial starts he might be able to make a deal and save everyone the time and money.

I also own a Law and Order T-shirt.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 05-19-2011 at 09:43 PM..
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  #48  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:48 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
The Althouse-Welsh dialogue was quite obnoxious in making fun of the French, including mind-boggling generalizations by Welsh about French woman.
They're tough, quelle horreur!

Quote:
and a crude mocking of a French-accent
He's married to a French accent so he's qualified.
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  #49  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:23 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
He's married to a French accent so he's qualified.
If I mocked my wife's accent, I wouldn't be married for long (28 years so far).
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  #50  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:33 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
If I mocked my wife's accent, I wouldn't be married for long (28 years so far).
no sense of humor, eh?
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  #51  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:52 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
If I mocked my wife's accent, I wouldn't be married for long (28 years so far).
Yeah, i have to say. as someone in an interracial marriage, I find "I'm married to [member of group X], so I'm entitled to..." is a sentence which has no useful ending. That way be dragons.
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  #52  
Old 05-19-2011, 11:18 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
no sense of humor, eh?
Not when it comes to being ridiculed. Otherwise, yes. Great one.
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  #53  
Old 05-19-2011, 11:43 PM
viewer3000 viewer3000 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Why is it commendable for Daniels ('a stand up guy' & 'shows a level of maturity') to take his wife back, and strong for Maria Shriver to leave Arnold? Countercultural yes; but the glib double standard... dull.
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  #54  
Old 05-19-2011, 11:58 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by viewer3000 View Post
Why is it commendable for Daniels ('a stand up guy' & 'shows a level of maturity') to take his wife back, and strong for Maria Shriver to leave Arnold? Countercultural yes; but the glib double standard... dull.
Double standard? There are far more standards than two. I don't see what's glib about judging each situation on its own merits.
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  #55  
Old 05-20-2011, 12:44 AM
Diane1976 Diane1976 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Good point. It's a pity that BHL gets so much attention. He first came to my attention as a apologist for Israeli atrocities, then as an apologist for Polanski, then as an apologist for war on Libya, and now as an apologist for DSK. That's 4 strikes against him in my book.

I have no idea why he has become a darling of American media, much less a stereotype for a French boor.

The Althouse-Welsh dialogue was quite obnoxious in making fun of the French, including mind-boggling generalizations by Welsh about French woman and a crude mocking of a French-accent.
I definitely agree with you on the obnoxiousness of that diavlog. It's not like the French are the only people in the world who ever supported a popular politician in spite of rumours of extra-material affairs, etc. It seems to me a lot of people have, including Americans. As much as Clinton's prosecutor and political enemies tried to do him in, as I recall, according to polls, most Americans continued to support him, and still like him, in spite of serious allegations and accusations. And, people voted for Arnold S. in spite of accusations of affairs and sexual harassment.

There may be some cultural differences, in terms of how much prying into the private lives of politicians is considered acceptable, and some differences in the approaches of legal systems, but I think it's also just human nature that people don't want to believe bad things about somebody they like, especially a leader they admire.

The story of DSK is really sad, if the accusations are true. It's unfortunate that he ruined a brilliant career, and, from what I've read, a chance to make an important contribution to France and to the world through his work.

Levy is controversial and I think he was wrong to imply one of the accusers was an opportunist because he doesn't know that, any more than people know DSK was guilty. But I don't hold defending Israel against him. He's Jewish and it seems normal to me that most Jewish people do. I've read he was very outspoken in opposing Islamic radicalism as well.

The Polanski case is a matter of opinion but Levy was hardly alone in criticizing the pursuit of him in a criminal case decades after the fact. Even the victim, who received a settlement, felt the same way about it. She's quoted as saying the criminal case did her more harm than he did. (Wikipedia) I believe that. It's not unlike Lewinsky, although she was older. She was practically treated like a criminal for not wanting to accuse Clinton and mercilessly raked over the coals by all sides.

We've sort of gone from "blaming the victim" to attacking the victim, in some cases, and the wives of guilty men for standing by them too, as in both the Arnold S. and DSK cases. Remember the snarky remarks about Arnold's wife in that diavlog, and people are attacking DSK's wife the same way, as they did Hillary Clinton. I consider a lot of these people fanatics, personally.

Also, I recall that BHL has criticized Marxism and other far left ideologies, but I think some of his conservative critics are attacking him because they think he is symbolic of things they blindly hate and associate together, France and "the left" and their particular idea of immorality.

Last edited by Diane1976; 05-20-2011 at 01:06 AM..
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  #56  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:12 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Here's the thing I have learned from watching years and years of Law and Order. [...]
The mind reels.
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  #57  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:37 AM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

You brought up a lot of good points. There are many culturally driven peculiarities brought up in this diavlog and generally speaking in the overall discussion of the same topic in other threads.
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  #58  
Old 05-20-2011, 07:04 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

I guess there's some solace to be taken in the fact that Strauss-Kahn is being defended, not just by the usually pinko francophiles, but also by at least one conservative.

Win Ben Stein's Credibility:

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/0...nnocent-anyone
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  #59  
Old 05-20-2011, 07:30 AM
viewer3000 viewer3000 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Double standard? There are far more standards than two. I don't see what's glib about judging each situation on its own merits.
Judging a situation on its own merits is fine. It's the false feminism of these judgments that's just blindly convenient. Strength could easily be attributed to the aggrieved party for making a different decision. Could one thoughtfully find fault with either case going the other way?
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  #60  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:26 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I guess there's some solace to be taken in the fact that Strauss-Kahn is being defended, not just by the usually pinko francophiles, but also by at least one conservative.

Win Ben Stein's Credibility:

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/0...nnocent-anyone
There aren't many people who have a lower estimation of Ben Stein than me, but when I saw mention of that, I decided not to pass it along, even though it made me laugh. The key for me is this: either you believe in presumption of innocence or you do not, and if you do, you believe it applies even when the accused and his most prominent defenders seem particularly unsavory.
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  #61  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:34 PM
laura laura is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Bob Wright will be please to know that The Moral Animal is one of the classics.
Indeed it is.

One cannot be too rich or too thin or heap too much praise upon Mr Wright.
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  #62  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:45 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I guess there's some solace to be taken in the fact that Strauss-Kahn is being defended, not just by the usually pinko francophiles, but also by at least one conservative.

Win Ben Stein's Credibility:

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/0...nnocent-anyone
I don't know who Ben Stein is, but bravo for him. His remarks are spot on. In the past few days I have heard several well-known French politicians and intellectuals, in addition to the egregious BHL, express similar views. Notably, Robert Badinter, former Minister of Justice under Mitterrand, the man who was responsible for abolishing capital punishment in France.
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  #63  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
The mind reels.
I, too, have learned from Law and Order. For example, the impact of your ridiculously inflated post count would be charged as depraved indifference to human life.
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  #64  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:55 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
I don't know who Ben Stein is, ...
It is not very relevant to the point at hand, as I indicated above, but two things to know about him in general are (1) his shilling on behalf of the scammy "Free Score Dot Com" (which charges people for credit reports that may be obtained for free elsewhere), a commitment that he holds so dear that he gave up his columnist job at the NYT when they told him the conflict of interest was not acceptable, and (2) the movie Expelled, an unbelievably lie-strewn piece of propaganda trying to make the case for creationism that among other things equated acceptance of the theory of evolution with believing the Nazis were right to put the Jews in gas chambers.
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  #65  
Old 05-20-2011, 01:57 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Originally Posted by look View Post
I, too, have learned from Law and Order.
No further questions.
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  #66  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
No further questions.
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  #67  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:02 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Jon Stewart did a funny bit last night on Levy and Stein.

Presumption of innocence is a given. What Levy and Stein have done, however, is provide (unhelpful) defense strategies for the alleged perp. Levy, for example, both bashed the earlier accusation in France as an opportunist and claimed something was sinister about the idea that one maid entered the room rather than a brigade of two (sic).
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  #68  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:10 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Jon Stewart did a funny bit last night on Levy and Stein.

Presumption of innocence is a given. What Levy and Stein have done, however, is provide (unhelpful) defense strategies for the alleged perp. [...]
That much I am willing to agree with, even before anything is settled in court. The "unhelpful" part, I mean. I don't much care for the implication I take that you think it is wrong for anyone to stand up for someone who is accused of something, however.

I may be wrong about this, but I have a memory of your being fairly heated in defense of Michael Jackson, right after he died, due to the lack of convictions in his case. I wonder at this apparent inconsistency.
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  #69  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:10 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

This is just beyond dumb:

Quote:
2.) In life, events tend to follow patterns. People who commit crimes tend to be criminals, for example. Can anyone tell me any economists who have been convicted of violent sex crimes? Can anyone tell me of any heads of nonprofit international economic entities who have ever been charged and convicted of violent sexual crimes? Is it likely that just by chance this hotel maid found the only one in this category? Maybe Mr. Strauss-Kahn is guilty but if so, he is one of a kind, and criminals are not usually one of a kind.
This would be the perfect logic for defending OJ Simpson, Ted Bundy, Roman Polanski etc., or any other criminal who doesn't fit the common stereotype. Most people who commit double homicide are not hall of fame running backs. Is it likely that just by chance Nicole Simpson married the only one? Can anyone tell me of a highly educated, local Republican candidate who was also a serial killer? Is it just by chance that victim #1 found Ted Bundy? Most rapists are not renowned film directors etc., etc.
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  #70  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:11 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Jon Stewart did a funny bit last night on Levy and Stein.

Presumption of innocence is a given. What Levy and Stein have done, however, is provide (unhelpful) defense strategies for the alleged perp. Levy, for example, both bashed the earlier accusation in France as an opportunist and claimed something was sinister about the idea that one maid entered the room rather than a brigade of two (sic).
Well, she is an opportunist and everyone in France knows it. She waited 8 years before bringing charges and, surprise, surprise, her legal action just happened to coincide with the indictment of DSK in NY. I have no doubt that her novels will sell marginally better in the future.
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  #71  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:13 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
This is just beyond dumb:

[...]

This would be the perfect logic for defending OJ Simpson, Ted Bundy, Roman Polanski etc., or any other criminal who doesn't fit the common stereotype. Most people who commit double homicide are not hall of fame running backs. Is it likely that just by chance Nicole Simpson married the only one? Can anyone tell me of a highly educated, local Republican candidate who was also a serial killer? Is it just by chance that victim #1 found Ted Bundy? Most rapists are not renowned film directors etc., etc.
A very good rebuttal to Ben Stein. Perhaps I should have made more clear that I didn't think any more of the quality of his argument than I do anything else he's done lately. My point was supposed to be understood as a more narrow one, or perhaps a more abstract one: that it is good to stand up and remind people about the presumption of innocence.
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  #72  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:15 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
I don't know who Ben Stein is, but bravo for him. His remarks are spot on.
Beyond the presumption of innocence which is probably so widely agreed upon here that, it's almost truistic, his remarks are spot off. His arguments, in order are:

1. why hasn't he been charged before if he raped this woman now? It's apparently impossible that someone could either engage in sexual misconduct in the past without being charged.

2. he's an economist, so can't have engaged in violent crime.

3. he's not stong enough to force women to have sex with him.

4. his accuser might be a lunatic. or a good person. whatever, who knows?

5. people are really charging him with rape because he's wealthy.
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  #73  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:30 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
This is just beyond dumb:



This would be the perfect logic for defending OJ Simpson, Ted Bundy, Roman Polanski etc., or any other criminal who doesn't fit the common stereotype. Most people who commit double homicide are not hall of fame running backs. Is it likely that just by chance Nicole Simpson married the only one? Can anyone tell me of a highly educated, local Republican candidate who was also a serial killer? Is it just by chance that victim #1 found Ted Bundy? Most rapists are not renowned film directors etc., etc.
No, it is not dumb. It is not dumb to suppose that a man who belongs to the French educational 幨ite, who has led an exemplary life in service to his country and to other causes, who is a dedicated husband, father and friend, who by all accounts is a brilliant economist, is not likely to be a vile and violent criminal. The fact that you would put Polanski, or now DSK, in the same category with Bundy or even a wife murderer like OJ Simpson is truly stupefying. I think I now understand why so many Europeans think that Europe and America are two very different civilisations.

Last edited by Florian; 05-20-2011 at 02:38 PM..
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  #74  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:37 PM
racoon33 racoon33 is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

To clarify: Michelle and Mollie thought BHL was making some normative claim about how Strauss-Kahn SHOULD NOT be treated as any other person before the law because he is some extraordinary person. What BHL was trying to say was very different: that the American system DID NOT treat Strauss-Kahn as any other person would be treated, because no other person would be subject to the judgment of the mob crowd that led to his forced resignation before he was proven guilty (ie the larger accusatory culture in the US).
Matt Welch and Ann A seemed to make the same mistake in the previous diavlog - a pretty grave misreading, although i guess not entirely unsurprising given Levy's obtuse expressive style in The Daily Beast article.
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  #75  
Old 05-20-2011, 02:51 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: Values Added: Queasy Alienated Despair Edition

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Originally Posted by racoon33 View Post
To clarify: Michelle and Mollie thought BHL was making some normative claim about how Strauss-Kahn SHOULD NOT be treated as any other person before the law because he is some extraordinary person. What BHL was trying to say was very different: that the American system DID NOT treat Strauss-Kahn as any other person would be treated, because no other person would be subject to the judgment of the mob crowd that led to his forced resignation before he was proven guilty (ie the larger accusatory culture in the US).
Matt Welch and Ann A seemed to make the same mistake in the previous diavlog - a pretty grave misreading, although i guess not entirely unsurprising given Levy's obtuse expressive style in The Daily Beast article.
Bingo racoon. That is exactly what BHL was saying in his usual overheated manner. Strange the bloggingheads are so unskilled in the art of reading. Maybe that's because they spend all their time chattering.
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  #76  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:03 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
Well, she is an opportunist and everyone in France knows it. She waited 8 years before bringing charges and, surprise, surprise, her legal action just happened to coincide with the indictment of DSK in NY. I have no doubt that her novels will sell marginally better in the future.
And this is why we have a judicial system: to sort out who's guilty, and who's not. Everyone gets this, but we seem to have trouble remembering it when the justice system intersects with the politics we hold dear.

The Duke rape case is the classic example: a highly combustible intersection of race, class, and gender relations. The reaction was explosive, hysterical, instantaneous, and predictable.

Republicans, who are usually "Tough On Crime," immediately attacked the alleged victim; they refused to believe her story. Many liberals and feminists, on the other hand, immediately presumed that the Duke players were guilty, and attacked them while defending the accuser. Both sides presented -- and believed -- a narrative that was rooted in their larger understanding of the world, but, sadly, not rooted in the facts of the case.

Now we have another case where class and race intersect, with the added temptation (for conservative zealots) of a "French socialist." And one from the IMF, no less. There are too many ancillary ingredients that resonate with other narratives that people care deeply about for some people to resist assuming either (a) DSK is being framed, or (b) DSK is a monstrous predator.

Sooner or later a judgement will be rendered in court, and then people can pour out their loathing for whomever is found guilty, and wedge the story into their larger political narratives. It should not be much to ask in the meantime that people withhold judgement -- especially given that in some cases the very same conservatives who attacked Marcotte for jumping to conclusions are now presuming to know DSK -- that rotten French socialist -- is guilty.

The facts of the case that have appeared in the media may seem quite compelling right now -- video of the maid running out of the room where the alleged crimes occurred? -- but they often do when people are falsely charged. The facts of the Duke case seemed compelling to a lot of people, too.

I think we'd have a healthier country if people had more respect for American, and Western, values, such as "innocent until proven guilty."
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  #77  
Old 05-20-2011, 03:05 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

This would hardly be the first time that a person with high social standing and a great reputation turned out to ALSO be a person that committed a vile criminal act. The two are not mutually exclusive. I recall hearing a number of people using a similar logic to try to dispell accusations against Catholic priests.
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:11 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian View Post
No, it is not dumb. It is not dumb to suppose that a man who belongs to the French educational 幨ite, who has led an exemplary life in service to his country and to other causes, who is a dedicated husband, father and friend, who by all accounts is a brilliant economist, is not likely to be a vile and violent criminal. The fact that you would put Polanski, or now DSK, in the same category with Bundy or even a wife murderer like OJ Simpson is truly stupefying. I think I now understand why so many Europeans think that Europe and America are two very different civilisations.
That's a perfectly framed instance of the ad hominem fallacy. Let's stipulate that it's indeed unlikely that a person fitting the description given above will turn out to be a rapist. That's also true of people fitting most other descriptions. West African maids, so far as I know, aren't especially likely to accuse hotel guests of rape. So, regardless of the truth, some unlikely event must have occurred. Your theory has no better basis than the assumption that DSK is guilty of exactly what has been alleged.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 05-20-2011 at 03:15 PM.. Reason: fix typos
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:41 PM
Florian Florian is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
That's a perfectly framed instance of the ad hominem fallacy. Let's stipulate that it's indeed unlikely that a person fitting the description given above will turn out to be a rapist. That's also true of people fitting most other descriptions. West African maids, so far as I know, aren't especially likely to accuse hotel guests of rape. So, regardless of the truth, some unlikely event must have occurred. Your theory has no better basis than the assumption that DSK is guilty of exactly what has been alleged.
I was simply stating a truth of common sense, expanding on what I thought was implicit in Ben Stein's remark: that a man of his upbringing, background etc. who has never been charged with rape, is unlikely to "be" a rapist, if that means someone who has some kind of psychopathological disorder. Of course, all men, or all heterosexual men, are probably capable of committing a rape if all that means is taking unfair advantage of a woman.
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:54 PM
racoon33 racoon33 is offline
 
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Default Re: This just in

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
That's a perfectly framed instance of the ad hominem fallacy. Let's stipulate that it's indeed unlikely that a person fitting the description given above will turn out to be a rapist. That's also true of people fitting most other descriptions. West African maids, so far as I know, aren't especially likely to accuse hotel guests of rape. So, regardless of the truth, some unlikely event must have occurred. Your theory has no better basis than the assumption that DSK is guilty of exactly what has been alleged.
This is not entirely correct: not all 'descriptions' are created equal. One type of descriptor can be a track record of his character, his fulfillment of positions of responsibility, from which some sort of inference can be drawn. Not to be compared with ad hominem attack where a direct link is made between the identity of an individual, in your example an African maid, and a propensity to act in a certain way because of this identity. in one case its a matter of historical track record, and thus admissible as evidence, in the other its an unsubstantiated causal link, a false positive and thus inadmissible. the point is to figure out which track record is relevant - his 'good' track record as a public figure or his 'bad' track record as sexually coercive in his private affairs.
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