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  #1  
Old 01-14-2010, 10:48 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

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  #2  
Old 01-14-2010, 11:08 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

The "environmental elites" have made an "aesthetic judgement" that they dislike economic growth, and that's why we have thousands of scientists and millions of people that believe AGW is a problem. Of course! Why didn't I think of this before? I know that Pinkerton periodically goes somewhat crazy, but this is impressive even by his standards.
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  #3  
Old 01-15-2010, 12:52 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
The "environmental elites" have made an "aesthetic judgement" that they dislike economic growth, and that's why we have thousands of scientists and millions of people that believe AGW is a problem. Of course! Why didn't I think of this before? I know that Pinkerton periodically goes somewhat crazy, but this is impressive even by his standards.
Yeah, if Pinkerton's free to make up shit about what his opponents believe then I guess I'm free to make up some crazy shit about what Pinkerton believes. Except Pinkerton believes so much crazy shit I don't have to make it up.
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  #4  
Old 01-15-2010, 02:21 AM
EvanHarper EvanHarper is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

It's crucial to understand that this isn't a rare slip, this isn't some embarrassing deviation; if you don't believe lunatic shit like this, you can't be a conservative. If you accept proclaimed conservative principles (take it slow, distrust utopian ideology, let things work out on their own, prefer hands-off approaches, respect the wisdom of your forebears) on their own terms, but you don't accept the crazy stuff, then you're not a conservative. You're a moderate, a centrist, a liberal, whatever - hell, there are people on the radical left who endorse these principles. Modern "conservatism" isn't about this stuff any more than Stalinist "socialism" was about giving the working man a fair shake.

There really is no principle at the core of modern American "conservatism" other than give moneyed interests what they want in the 5-10 year term (and maybe indulge while you're at it in some chauvinism, sexism, racism, if that's your thing.) I realize that's putting it in stark terms but when you listen to these guys, the conclusion is impossible to avoid.
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  #5  
Old 01-15-2010, 02:23 AM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do matter

I did one time have a little chat with a guy asking to sign up for some environmental club in front of farmers market. Not sure if it was something for the sierra club or greenpeace.

Anyway, we got to talking about cars for some reason and I asked him point blank, given two scenarios of the world,

one where the cars we drive remained dirty, and to compensate we turned to bicycling or other mass transit to get emissions down

the other where the cars we drive were clean, but people tended to use them instead of alternative transportation methods like biking or mass transit

which would he prefer?

He chose the first.


This was in Los Angeles, and this nutter actually chose biking over cars... CLEAN cars mind you!

You see, it shows that for SOME of the environmentalists out there, it is not about pollution, it is about an aesthetic dislike for modern transportation. For others, it is about a secular worship for a natural state, a sacred concept that is not to be disturbed by man.

That last driver causes some scuffles among the ranks, clean energy proponents vs the natural state posse proudly defending the right of the sacred blood sucking flesh maggot to live in peace without mans interventions, or incursions on its turf. Does the incursion actually cause any harm? Not relevant, it might, the natural state, of which man is separate and apart from (are we gods?), is disturbed and this cannot be tolerated.



And then there are those who are more mild and reasonable, people who don't like pollution. i.e. the broad majority of the country and likely, the entire world. But even there there are degrees of concern.

Take myself for example. I am much more averse to letting coal power plants unleash so much filth into the air than I am with the nuclear waste produced in our fission plants. But a great deal of people are opposed to nuclear power to their core.

It does not matter that it is clean to the air, and has a sterling safety record (assuming the reactor design is not a disaster like Chernobyl). The waste is impossible to deal with they say, yucca mountain is not acceptable... and why not? So bullish on scientists reports about impending doom based on admittedly incomplete climate models, but no credence to geological records dating back tens of thousands of years about the stability of a region?

Such selective analysis.

I think it much of the tension boils down to an attitude.


Are you more sympathetic to this approach?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb


Or this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ult...Resource_(book)
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  #6  
Old 01-15-2010, 03:34 AM
EvanHarper EvanHarper is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Shorter JonIrenicus:

Quote:
Once, I ran into a stupid environmentalist. Therefore all of climatology is bullshit.
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:00 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
it is not about pollution, it is about an aesthetic dislike for modern transportation
LOL. How cleverly you tricked the dirty hippie into revealing his actual motivation!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
Take myself for example. I am much more averse to letting coal power plants unleash so much filth into the air than I am with the nuclear waste produced in our fission plants. But a great deal of people are opposed to nuclear power to their core.
Why do you think that is, Jon? Probably just some irrational "aesthetic dislike for" the shape of cooling towers, right?

I wonder if you can characterize the position of people you disagree with without caricaturing it. If you could, it would demonstrate that you actually understand the reasoning of people you disagree with -- something your cartoon pictures of the left fail to do.


.

Last edited by TwinSwords; 01-15-2010 at 04:04 AM..
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  #8  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:31 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

This was just horrible. I'm going to listen to Preppy and Zeko on loop, and dream of bhTV.
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  #9  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:14 AM
InJapan InJapan is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Wow... Pinkerton really is going out on a limb if he is buying into the idea that AGW is just a conspiracy.

BTW, Vaclav Smil is one of those attention-grabbers who claims "Basically no global warming in past ten years...", which is just regular denier bullsh*t that they repeat over and over, as a mantra. Physically quite wrong mantra, I might add.

Whether Jim will ever find his way out of his ideological fog that colors anything to do with science - denying real science while simultaneously attaching magical qualities to un-described future technologies, I don't know.

I watched some of the major press conferences from Copenhagen. David Corn asked some good questions and he seemed quite a bit more professional than many others in the press gallery. However, as his statements in the AGW portion of this diavlog indicate, he gets the general drift but tends to mess up the details.
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  #10  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:26 AM
JoeK
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonIrenicus View Post
You see, it shows that for SOME of the environmentalists out there, it is not about pollution, it is about an aesthetic dislike for modern transportation. For others, it is about a secular worship for a natural state, a sacred concept that is not to be disturbed by man.
There is another cause that lies at the root of the liberals’ vile worldview. It’s their fucked up intuitions on economics. They make liberals hate babies.

I liked your story, Jon, but you are too kind to liberals when you say it's only some that are mad. Take the founder of bhtv, Bob Wright. You probably think he is a reasonable man. You wish. It's just that he is censoring his true beliefs when he speaks in public. (And I am not talking about Wright being a creepy utilitarian. Everybody knows that.) It’s more than that. I remember on one occasion when he had a slip of the tongue. It was in a diavlog with Meghan McArdle that goes way back. Meghan talked about her trip to Vietnam where people are so poor that they have to hold on their, for Western standards, cheap, trivial possessions. For example, Meghan says, a Westerner wouldn't think twice about throwing away a pencil when it's not immediately needed and then getting another when it is. Bob Wright calls these attitudes of a typical Westerner "obscene". Um, excuse me?

Last edited by JoeK; 01-15-2010 at 08:10 AM.. Reason: Reminiscing on how crazy Bob Wright is
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  #11  
Old 01-15-2010, 09:17 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

"'Twas but a few months ago when I was reading the climate change community writing that the recent cooling trend had been a fluke, and that we were scheduled to return to record warm temperatures . . . why, this very winter!"


Prof Latif, who leads a research team at the renowned Leibniz Institute at Germany's Kiel University, has developed new methods for measuring ocean temperatures 3,000ft beneath the surface, where the cooling and warming cycles start.

He and his colleagues predicted the new cooling trend in a paper published in 2008 and warned of it again at an IPCC conference in Geneva last September.

Last night he told The Mail on Sunday: 'A significant share of the warming we saw from 1980 to 2000 and at earlier periods in the 20th Century was due to these cycles - perhaps as much as 50 per cent.

'They have now gone into reverse, so winters like this one will become much more likely. Summers will also probably be cooler, and all this may well last two decades or longer.

'The extreme retreats that we have seen in glaciers and sea ice will come to a halt. For the time being, global warming has paused, and there may well be some cooling.'



How can this happen while man-caused CO2 in the atmosphere continues its increase?


Maybe if the white house kicks half a $$million Prof Latif's way he'll change his tune.
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  #12  
Old 01-15-2010, 10:04 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
This was just horrible. I'm going to listen to Preppy and Zeko on loop, and dream of bhTV.
The skeptics are coming around!
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  #13  
Old 01-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Xelgaex Xelgaex is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Maybe if the white house kicks half a $$million Prof Latif's way he'll change his tune.
No need. Prof. Latif complained about the Mail mischaracterizing his work the very next day.

BTW, I didn't need to go any farther than the comments on Megan's post to find that link. However, I can completely understand not wanting to read through her comment sections.
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  #14  
Old 01-15-2010, 10:41 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Victory is mine!
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  #15  
Old 01-15-2010, 10:47 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Let's assume for a minute that you have correctly psychoanalyzed the huge group of people that hold Liberal attitudes about the environment. Now, having so assumed, let me ask you this: Do you think that global temperatures are rising as a result of human emissions of CO2 and other gases? If not, why do you think the scientific community believes otherwise? If so, should we do anything to stop it?
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:00 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelgaex View Post
No need. Prof. Latif complained about the Mail mischaracterizing his work the very next day.

BTW, I didn't need to go any farther than the comments on Megan's post to find that link. However, I can completely understand not wanting to read through her comment sections.
LOL! I can't even understand wanting to read her blog, but never mind that.

I read about this latest shiny object on Steve Benen's blog a few days ago, and was going to post it, thinking it might dissuade some of our resident denialists from waving it around as gospel, but then I thought, no, even they aren't going to accept such nonsense at face value.

Ah, well. Live and learn.

So, in the hopes that later is better than never, here's Steve on 12 Jan 2009:

Quote:
QUOTE OF THE DAY.... The British Daily Mail ran a report yesterday with the headline, "Could we be in for 30 years of global COOLING?" The piece told readers, "According to the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Centre in Colorado, the warming of the Earth since 1900 is due to natural oceanic cycles, and not man-made greenhouse gases."

It led Fox News to report, "30 Years of Global Cooling Are Coming, Leading Scientist Says."

There are, of course, two small problems. First, the National Snow and Ice Data Center said no such thing. The director of the NSIDC said, "This is completely false. NSIDC has never made such a statement and we were never contacted by anyone from the Daily Mail."

Second, the Fox News report cites the research of IPCC scientist Mojib Latif, one of the world's leading climate modelers. The story completely mischaracterizes his work, and gets the story largely backwards.

Latif told Dr. Joseph Romm:

Quote:
"I don't know what to do. They just make these things up."
Yes, they do. And as long as there are news consumers who prefer the alternative universe these outlets provide, they'll keep making these things up.
For the record, it's worth pointing out that besides McMegan, other right-wing media ran with this Daily Mail crap without checking into it, without even so much as making a confirmation phone call to any of the primary sources. This includes Fox News, Fox Nation, and Hateway Pundit.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 01-15-2010 at 11:01 AM.. Reason: missing link
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:30 AM
osmium osmium is offline
 
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Default Jim Pinkerton is not worth listening to

Jim, I know you don't know how to read internet comments, but:

I, commenter osmium, am an energy scientist. I work for the Energy Institute which is a part of CUNY, the City University of New York.

Our research efforts are currently split between 1) grid-scale batteries to couple with wind and solar, 2) advanced natural gas extraction, and 3) cooling for next generation nuclear.

CO2 is bad. Whatever that is you are saying about nuclear power, that people who are anti CO2 are also anti nuclear, you are wronger than the wrongest person who has ever been on bloggingheads. You know not what you talk about. When you picture people who believe the CO2 "conspiracy," you see 20 year old hippies. Which tells us about your psyche, not about reality.

I know you like your space elevators and rocket ships, but you are not a serious thinker on these issues. You are interesting (but wrong) when you stick to your "the US must remain Christian" thesis. At least that is an idea. On all science issues, you have no ideas. Believe me: in the rooms where people actually seriously talk about space elevators and rocket ships, they also believe CO2 is a problem. 100% chance--I know and you don't.

regards,
osmium
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2010, 12:53 PM
Stapler Malone Stapler Malone is offline
 
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Default Re: Jim Pinkerton is not worth listening to

Honestly, is there anything Jim Pinkerton hates more than experts?
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  #19  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:04 PM
PreppyMcPrepperson PreppyMcPrepperson is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
This was just horrible. I'm going to listen to Preppy and Zeko on loop, and dream of bhTV.
Even my parents get sick of me sometimes. Really Baltimoron, I'm sure this is bad for your health. I recommend alternate cycles of Osmium and Jay.
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:20 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

I'm not sure how far I'm going to make it through this one. Never mind what earlier comments and the diavlog section titles have warned me about, Jim has already let his inner threaded fastener show with his attempt to attack Obama over Google and China.

Where is the person who, just a few minutes earlier, was delighted to accept the label of "libertarian conservative?" And is it not transparently obvious to everyone that if Obama had commented on this event, Jim would be on here, meanderingly muttering about Teh Gummint Getting Too Involved In Private Enterprise!!!1!?

It's really nothing more than how every last thing can be spun to make it all about how Obama is screwing up, isn't it, Jim?

Oh, well. I'll give it a couple more minutes.

[Added] Okay, I gave it well more than a couple, and I've had way more than enough. I am now more than half-convinced that Bh.tv and David Corn are enabling Jim's descent into madness by treating his babbling about conspiracies of "elite environmentalists" who want everyone to be "forced into darkness," etc., as respectable points of view. Who aligns himself, repeatedly, with James Inhofe? Crazy people, that's who.
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  #21  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:26 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
Why do you think that is, Jon? Probably just some irrational "aesthetic dislike for" the shape of cooling towers, right?

I wonder if you can characterize the position of people you disagree with without caricaturing it. If you could, it would demonstrate that you actually understand the reasoning of people you disagree with -- something your cartoon pictures of the left fail to do.


.
The worry over nuclear waste is in my opinion, a cartoonish position. If ONLY I had to do some work to craft a caricature, it is done Already.


As to what people dislike, I think some people get it in their heads that anything that produces waste is not to be tolerated.

Others, like myself, place different weights on different wastes.

Waste from coal plants is out in the open, thrown into the air, waste from nuclear plants is condensed, and is far easier to control and tuck away.

-But it stays around for thousands of years!
-And certain geological areas in the earth have been stable for millions. So why exactly would it not be safe to ramp up the nuclear plants we have today for the next 50-60 years? Store the waste in safe locations, along with the waste we ALREADY need to store no matter what we do, and when something better for baseload power comes along with no waste, we switch to it?

OH NO !!!!!!!! instead of ~50 years of fission waste to deal with, there is 100 years of fission waste to deal with !!!!!!!

How long has human civilization been around? how long has the earth been around? It is the tiniest sliver of time, a section so small in the grand scheme of things as to be insignificant, but people have such small perspectives and time horizons. It is not as if the window where fission power is the only clean (to the atmosphere) baseload power we have will be infinite. And when we have better alternatives, we will switch, with time.


Nuclear is the cleanest baseload power we have. Thus far there is nothing else.

-baseload options
coal - filthy to the air we breath, and for more than just CO2
natural gas - cleaner than coal, but still unclean to the atmosphere
hydro - limited deployment options, but otherwise fairly clean
nuclear - clean to the atmosphere - long term condensed waste, but can be isolated

intermittent
solar - clean, expensive, but getting cheaper - volatile power source
wind - clean, expensive, also getting cheaper - volatile power source


It is not feasible to be 100% or even 80% reliant on intermittent power. You NEED some base load power generating capacity, the kind where you can ramp up or down your power needs and are not subject to the whims of the shining sun wind. And right now the cleanest option we have that can be widely deployed for base load power, is nuclear.


Now if people like Osmium and others get good enough and cheap enough flow batteries up and running or whatever else, then the intermittent power sources could become more stable with the stored energy to smooth things out.


But that day is not today.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2010, 02:56 PM
SpikeTedAgnew SpikeTedAgnew is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Corn your a repulsive zealot about the Co2 issue.
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2010, 03:46 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
I'm not sure how far I'm going to make it through this one. Never mind what earlier comments and the diavlog section titles have warned me about, Jim has already let his inner threaded fastener show with his attempt to attack Obama over Google and China.

Where is the person who, just a few minutes earlier, was delighted to accept the label of "libertarian conservative?" And is it not transparently obvious to everyone that if Obama had commented on this event, Jim would be on here, meanderingly muttering about Teh Gummint Getting Too Involved In Private Enterprise!!!1!?

It's really nothing more than how every last thing can be spun to make it all about how Obama is screwing up, isn't it, Jim?

Oh, well. I'll give it a couple more minutes.

[Added] Okay, I gave it well more than a couple, and I've had way more than enough. I am now more than half-convinced that Bh.tv and David Corn are enabling Jim's descent into madness by treating his babbling about conspiracies of "elite environmentalists" who want everyone to be "forced into darkness," etc., as respectable points of view. Who aligns himself, repeatedly, with James Inhofe? Crazy people, that's who.
You often hear the "environmentalists want to take us back to the stone age" critique." Now I know plenty of real-life environmentalists (I am one too) and I don't know anybody who actually thinks that way. I know they exist, but as far as I can tell they're as likely to be right-wing survivalist or back-to-the-land Christian fundamentalist types. Most of being an environmentalist is just scaling up the values of taking care of your tools and being a good neighbor.
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:24 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

[QUOTE=harkin;146509]
Quote:
Maybe if the white house kicks half a $$million Prof Latif's way he'll change his tune.
Latif is usually an outspoken AGW Hawk.
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:46 PM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Pinkerton may be a bit crazy but he wins this one. The world wants abundance.
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  #26  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:07 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
You often hear the "environmentalists want to take us back to the stone age" critique." Now I know plenty of real-life environmentalists (I am one too) and I don't know anybody who actually thinks that way. I know they exist, but as far as I can tell they're as likely to be right-wing survivalist or back-to-the-land Christian fundamentalist types. Most of being an environmentalist is just scaling up the values of taking care of your tools and being a good neighbor.
Yep. And living up to another (erstwhile?) conservative maxim: Waste not, want not.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:16 PM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Pinkerton enviro crazies do exist, just not in the numbers he may believe, but aesthetics do mat

Not addressed to me but I'll chime in. Yes and Yes. The problem is what to do. The level of response is going to be related to how serious you think the problem is. Imagine a bunch of people in a lifeboat without enough food and water to survive for long. When do you toss someone over the side? Most people are going to wait too long when that is the option. Pinkerton is right. If the worst case scenarios are true, what is a more likely reaction: party and hope for the best or sacrifice for the future? I say the former. People will respond to a hope for a better future far more than they will respond to a fear of a worse future until the worse future actually comes.
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:46 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
The skeptics are coming around!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
Victory is mine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreppyMcPrepperson View Post
Even my parents get sick of me sometimes. Really Baltimoron, I'm sure this is bad for your health. I recommend alternate cycles of Osmium and Jay.
LOL! I'm always happy to be wrong, in this case, about the value of the Apollo Project. Yet, bhTV still hasn't proven to me letting duos like Pinkercorn grind on is good for viewers...or Jim Pinkerton. I repeat: new combos! David Corn - ok, I might favor the left side - deserves a better interlocutor.

Preppy, I also tried listening to Byron York, Michael Goldfarb, and Jonah Goldberg, so that I didn't stop appreciating the right side of the aisle. I actually preferred Goldfarb to Pinkerton - fratboys are always more fun than nutjobs! I also put my skeptic podcasts on emergency alert. I think Pinkerton is primed to be a high-profile target for skeptics. Jim, I guess it's a kind of fame!
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:52 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjkeefe View Post
...I am now more than half-convinced that Bh.tv and David Corn are enabling Jim's descent into madness by treating his babbling about conspiracies of "elite environmentalists" who want everyone to be "forced into darkness," etc., as respectable points of view. Who aligns himself, repeatedly, with James Inhofe? Crazy people, that's who.
I think it's the New America Foundation that's really enabling Jim.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:57 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Yeah, I know! That part about reading the literature and deciding for yourself about the issue is SOOOO immoral! It's just what a leftie would say!

Last edited by Baltimoron; 01-15-2010 at 07:06 PM..
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  #31  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:58 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Quote:
Originally Posted by themightypuck View Post
Pinkerton may be a bit crazy but he wins this one. The world wants abundance.
An abundance of straw man arguments?
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  #32  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:58 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I think it's the New America Foundation that's really enabling Jim.
Yeah, they're probably not helping, either.
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  #33  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:01 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Jim Pinkerton is not worth listening to

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Originally Posted by osmium View Post
Jim, I know you don't know how to read internet comments, but:

I, commenter osmium, am an energy scientist. I work for the Energy Institute which is a part of CUNY, the City University of New York.

Our research efforts are currently split between 1) grid-scale batteries to couple with wind and solar, 2) advanced natural gas extraction, and 3) cooling for next generation nuclear.

CO2 is bad. Whatever that is you are saying about nuclear power, that people who are anti CO2 are also anti nuclear, you are wronger than the wrongest person who has ever been on bloggingheads. You know not what you talk about. When you picture people who believe the CO2 "conspiracy," you see 20 year old hippies. Which tells us about your psyche, not about reality.

I know you like your space elevators and rocket ships, but you are not a serious thinker on these issues. You are interesting (but wrong) when you stick to your "the US must remain Christian" thesis. At least that is an idea. On all science issues, you have no ideas. Believe me: in the rooms where people actually seriously talk about space elevators and rocket ships, they also believe CO2 is a problem. 100% chance--I know and you don't.

regards,
osmium
Props! What did you expect from Pinkerton? An actual statistical survey conducted by someone other than his own subconscious?
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  #34  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:14 PM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Being clever doesn't make you right. Likewise ought ain't is and wishing doesn't make it so.
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  #35  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:21 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

So, this is the voice of the embittered white minority - fear and bitchiness?
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  #36  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:21 PM
dieter dieter is offline
 
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Default Pinkerton is largely right wrt to environmentalists motivations ...

..., but his motivations are not benign either and the negation of irrational ideology is not automatically rational.

Now I am a long time Green Party voter and sympathizer. But it is blatantly clear to me and frankly frustrating to talk to other sympathizers and to green party politicians, precisely because much of the analysis and the proposed solutions are based on value judgements and gut feelings, which are presented as objective truth. The attachment to certain ideas is basically religious and to question them gets me the same reaction as questioning the historicity of Jesus in a church would.

Those who openly propose radical relocalization, communal living, local and shared, small-scale industry not only for environmentalist, but for societal reasons, such as Austrian Green Party founding member Kaspanaze Simma, a devout catholic, who actually lives that lifestyle, have my full respect.

Aesthetics is a perfectly legitimate reason to favor a certain political viewpoint and I would much prefer it, when people would admit to their aestheticism, utopian visions and value judgements and would not present their choices as objective solutions to all kinds of problems.

I am not convinced that organic food is always healthier, or that local and organic produce uses less fossil fuel and causes less Co2 emissions in all cases. The popularity of organic food is based on gut feelings, not on sober considerations about resource efficiency and sustainability.

The modern Green party elites are sports car driving, Gucci bag carrying, globalist hipsters. I am not kidding. The sports car and Gucci bag thing is literally true. Al Gore is a good example for this. These types of pseudo environmentalists don't seem to believe that sustainability has anything to do with how they live their personal lives. Instead, the world is to be saved by international policy meetings, like in Copenhagen, where policy is proposed that somehow causes industry and entrepreneurs to create perpetual motion machines. Environmentalism is just another liberal cause for them, which ought to solved by the state and pollution is largely seen as the fault of rich, white males.

What Pinkerton doesn't get is that Al Gore and most of the other globalist technowonky environmentalists actually do believe that you can have it all, contemporary western lifestyles for everybody on the planet and sustainability.

Between the Al Gore types and the Kaspanaze Simma types are various transitional forms, which further complicates the matter.

AGW vs. Peak Oil
It is interesting how different groups perceive these issues.

1. AGW deniers and conspiracy theorists are largely the same folks who deny or ignore peak oil and claim that the latter is a cranky fringe theory, even though peak oil challenges AGW.
But both AGW and peak oil threaten car driving. AGW for moral, peak oil for scarcity reasons. So both are denied.

Notice, how Pinterton accused liberals of wishing for and loving scarcity, as if scarcity was a matter of taste. Pinkerton is not conservative on this issue.

2. White guilt AGW hawks basically ignore peak oil. The latter renders the need to address the former through western atonement moot. That seems to be the dominant strain of environmentalism right now.

3. Pure technowonks accept both and are sure that both can be fixed by entrepreneurs or by forcing car companies to do it.

4. Localists and Organic Food aficionados believe in both, AGW and peak oil, on the assumption that their lifestyles and choices are solutions to both problems.

I am sort of between 3 and 4, although I reject many of the specific ideas of both groups.

Last edited by dieter; 01-15-2010 at 07:24 PM..
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  #37  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:37 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Pinkerton is largely right wrt to environmentalists motivations ...

An interesting typology, and I'd like to see some links to support it.

It's ironic Pinkerton slammed his leftwing straw man target for its aesthetic judgment, when, beyond whatever corporate support he might get for his lunacy, Pinkerton's vision is mostly a product of early 60s technological liberalism. There's more The Jetson's and Star Trek than of Reagan in Pinkerton's vision.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:46 PM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

Again, you ignore the actual argument in favor of rhetorical shenanigans. There is a very real problem (AGW) that must be dealt with. Being right isn't the same as doing right.
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  #39  
Old 01-15-2010, 07:52 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

You sound a lot like this punk in Tombstone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIQK92c72mQ (~5:00)

Pinkerton isn't looking for solutions, just dreaming about a past when the future looked like a consumer fantasy.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:10 PM
themightypuck themightypuck is offline
 
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Default Re: Flying Cars Edition (David Corn & Jim Pinkerton)

I'll concede that I'm not on board with Pinkerton's motives. Nevertheless, there is a really big thing happening and it matters what we can actually do about it. "I told you so" will be cold comfort if things really go downhill. I totally agree with Pinkerton vis coming up with a better deal. If all we have is doom the likelihood of a fix will be reduced. People need hope to make an effort.
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