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  #1  
Old 07-26-2011, 01:19 AM
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Default Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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  #2  
Old 07-26-2011, 01:57 AM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
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Default A decade of jumping the gun

The Bush Gore Election hinged on the media jumping the gun, and here we are decade later still catching up.
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  #3  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:02 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

Regarding Adam's disappointment over Obama's negotiating skills. Obama has no political capital left. He spent it all on ObamaCare and hasn't been able to accumulate any more because of owning the worse economy since the depression

He and his advisers know that his poll ratings are above 40% on the strength of his personality alone and that this won't mean squat in the next election unless Republicans nominate Bachmann or Palin--which they know isn't going to happen.

If Obama is not re elected the Republicans will have it all in 2012 election; both houses and the Presidency. Adam, if you are unhappy with what a democrat President is doing, imagine this scenario.

Look at it this way, Obama's policies (regardless of whether he is in fact moderate or not) and negotiations also have to take political realities into account. His primary goal, and obligation to his liberal constituency, is NOT to achieve more liberal policies; he has assumed that he's done all he can in that area. His primary goal, and obligation to his constituency, is to prevent Republicans from taking over everything. It will be a huge political victory, as close as ever to a miracle, if he achieves this. Look at it through this prism while trying to understand why he's been negotiating as he has.

Just my two cents as a Republican who admires President Obama, feels he is playing the game brilliantly, and hopes he fails utterly.
(When I say I hope he fails, I mean, of course, in getting reelected.)

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 02:08 AM..
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:16 AM
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Default .. As a glibertarian, I ...

Non-Glibertarian Edition (featuring: Katherine Mangu-Ward and other)

As a glibertarian, I prefer the baked potato that accompanies my steak to be unadorned. I enjoy the full panoply of condiments made available to me by the free market, yet I insist on having them on the side. This approach allows me to exercise my non-alignment to the traditional meat and sides paradigm while still aligning myself with the dominant presentation. Of course, my beverage of choice is Koch.
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:38 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

Quote:
He and his advisers know that his poll ratings are above 40% on the strength of his personality alone and that this won't mean squat in the next election unless Republicans nominate Bachmann or Palin--which they know isn't going to happen.
Not necessarily. Republicans could shoot themselves in the foot in a variety of ways independent of Obama's personality. All the current Republican candidates look unelectable on their own (de)merits, and that goes in spades for Rick Perry (arguably the worst of the lot).
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:50 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Not necessarily. Republicans could shoot themselves in the foot in a variety of ways independent of Obama's personality. All the current Republican candidates look unelectable on their own (de)merits, and that goes in spades for Rick Perry (arguably the worst of the lot).
I disagree. I think either Romney or Perry will be the next POTUS. I don't think the fact that Perry prays really bugs anyone except the folks at MSNBC and others who would never vote for him anyway.
Same in regards to his so called 'preacher problems' trumpeted on that network; I certainly don't think any of these preachers will offend those swing voters as much as Reverend "God damn America" Wright did-- and they still elected his parishioner.
Then there is the whole questioning of his patriotism in regards to Texas secession, that's a non starter as well, no one is going to believe Perry is anti American.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 02:54 AM..
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:52 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I think either Romney or Perry will be the next POTUS.
Romney I'm worried about. Perry? Not so much. I think Perry is a ten times worse than Romney, but that's why he'll never get elected. Too horrifying. Like The Return of W (on steroids).

Quote:
I don't think the fact that Perry prays really bugs anyone except the folks at MSNBC and others who would never vote for him anyway.
What presidential candidate doesn't pray? They all pray. Pray2play.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:45 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I disagree. I think either Romney or Perry will be the next POTUS.
For this to happen I think unemployment has to move to 10%. Obama's approval rating is amazing when compared with Congress. Imagine if our economy were good. I'd think Obama would be in 70%+ territory.

I feel like I owe Bush II an apology for hating him so much. Then again, he did lie to us about Iraq. The only justification for Iraq comes from Christopher Hitchens, not from Bush, himself. That said, Perry just seems like more of the same. Romney seems like he'd say anything, any time.

I'd like Obama for one more term, then Christie in 2016.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: .. As a glibertarian, I ...

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Originally Posted by graz View Post
Non-Glibertarian Edition (featuring: Katherine Mangu-Ward and other)

As a glibertarian, I prefer the baked potato that accompanies my steak to be unadorned. I enjoy the full panoply of condiments made available to me by the free market, yet I insist on having them on the side. This approach allows me to exercise my non-alignment to the traditional meat and sides paradigm while still aligning myself with the dominant presentation. Of course, my beverage of choice is Koch.
LOL!
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:20 AM
Starwatcher162536 Starwatcher162536 is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

What the hell happened to Bobby Jindal? Did that one deadpan speech really do him in? If so, that's unfortunate, I really liked the guy and think he is 5x better then any of the primary runners and Rick Perry.
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  #11  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:28 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Starwatcher162536 View Post
What the hell happened to Bobby Jindal? Did that one deadpan speech really do him in? If so, that's unfortunate, I really liked the guy and think he is 5x better then any of the primary runners and Rick Perry.
I'm pretty sure he's a nutcase (participation in exorcisms, e.g.) Combine that with an apparently complete lack of on-camera charisma and his national prospects seem pretty dim. Perry is nuts - but he's a great performer; Mitt has all of the charm of new toaster, but he's smart and appears to be coherent. I don't think it's possible to combine both of those attributes successfully.
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  #12  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:03 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I feel like I owe Bush II an apology for hating him so much. Then again, he did lie to us about Iraq. The only justification for Iraq comes from Christopher Hitchens, not from Bush, himself. That said, Perry just seems like more of the same. Romney seems like he'd say anything, any time.
Hitchens on Bush.

I like Perry and I'd love to see him debate Obama (another guy who'll say anything). They can just try to out-lie each other.
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  #13  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:17 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Hitchens on Bush.

I like Perry and I'd love to see him debate Obama (another guy who'll say anything). They can just try to out-lie each other.
Everybody knows you vote on the basis of hair quality. Do you think Obama looks like Jimmy Carter at this point or does he seem to be the responsible guy?
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Last edited by sugarkang; 07-26-2011 at 10:23 AM..
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  #14  
Old 07-26-2011, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
For this to happen I think unemployment has to move to 10%. Obama's approval rating is amazing when compared with Congress.
Congress always has abysmal approval ratings, and with good reason. That doesn't mean that the party controlling (half of) Congress isn't going to win the presidential elections. I think the Democratic Congress had even lower approval ratings than Bush in 2008, but that didn't help McCain.

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Imagine if our economy were good. I'd think Obama would be in 70%+ territory.
Probably not, because he'd go on a spending binge. Obama does look like the responsible one right now, but only after doing nothing about deficits for two years, and in fact passing a ridiculous health care plan - although to be fair, he did cover the costs, unlike Bush's spending binge. There's a constant need to hold Obama accountable, or he'll return to his far-left, socialist ways. And frankly, I think that House Republicans are so extremely irresponsible that I fear the power that they have.

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I feel like I owe Bush II an apology for hating him so much. Then again, he did lie to us about Iraq.
And instead of listening to irresponsible House Democrats, who wanted to cut and run, he did the opposite: he sent more troops and stabilized Iraq. Congress seems to be much more irresponsible than the POTUS, now and then, although that may change if Bachmann is elected.

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
That said, Perry just seems like more of the same. Romney seems like he'd say anything, any time.
The Romney of 2002 would have been excellent: competent, pragmatic, not an extremist on social issues. What a shame that it had to come to the point where I have absolutely no respect for the man personally.

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I'd like Obama for one more term, then Christie in 2016.
That fat rogue has zero chance of being elected dog catcher - he only won due to Corzine's extreme unpopularity. Give me Mark Warner/Rudy Giuliani/Arne Carlson/Andrew Cuomo/Herman Cain.
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:16 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I think Perry is a ten times worse than Romney, but that's why he'll never get elected. Too horrifying. Like The Return of W (on steroids).
I suppose I should actually watch Perry speak before I predict his chances to be POTUS. I've never actually done that; all I see is what the other side throws at him and it looks pretty weak to me.

He doesn't physically look like W, but if his mannerisms remind people of W, if he struggles to complete his sentences for example, that will go against him. However, having a southern accent and being from Texas isn't going to be enough for swing voters to equate him to W. That's my guess.

But the election isn't going to be about the Republican candidate unless that candidate does something him or her self which makes him the issue. I know the left and their friends in the media will do their best to make the election not a referendum on the economy, but it won't work.
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:34 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
For this to happen I think unemployment has to move to 10%. Obama's approval rating is amazing when compared with Congress. Imagine if our economy were good. I'd think Obama would be in 70%+ territory.

Its almost at 10% now. The economy will be the issue, it sucks right now and people feel it. I think it will take a lot to make the Republican the issue rather then the way people feel about the economy.

I do think at the time of the election, if the unemployment rate has made 2 or 3 successive point drops, this could help Obama eke it out.
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  #17  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:40 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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But the election isn't going to be about the Republican candidate unless that candidate does something him or her self which makes him the issue. I know the left and their friends in the media will do their best to make the election not a referendum on the economy, but it won't work.
We'll see. Both sides need to run on the economy. When the Republicans can simply emit slogans about cutting government "fraud and waste," reducing foreign debt, and reducing taxes for billionaire "job creators," it may sound appealing. But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Its almost at 10% now. The economy will be the issue, it sucks right now and people feel it. I think it will take a lot to make the Republican the issue rather then the way people feel about the economy.

I do think at the time of the election, if the unemployment rate has made 2 or 3 successive point drops, this could help Obama eke it out.
Eke it out? Given that Obama has somehow maintained approval in the mid 40's despite prolonged 9% unemployment, I'd say he'll win in a walk if he produces a 2-3 point drop in the unemployment rate.
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  #19  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post

He doesn't physically look like W, but if his mannerisms remind people of W, if he struggles to complete his sentences for example, that will go against him. However, having a southern accent and being from Texas isn't going to be enough for swing voters to equate him to W. That's my guess.
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase

But notice this: He also said he strongly opposes same-sex marriage himself, which he's made clear. Still, his comments may further inflame some Tea Party critics, who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is the kind of editorial BS* that somehow passes for journalism. I am not aware that the teaparty is interested in anything as much as fiscal responsibility.

*Not to mention that it is sloppily phrased so that one is not entirely sure whether it is the tea party or critics of the tea party who have questioned his conservative credentials.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:37 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Everybody knows you vote on the basis of hair quality. Do you think Obama looks like Jimmy Carter at this point or does he seem to be the responsible guy?
Hair says a lot about a man. That's why I could never have supported Mitch Daniels. Obama in no way looks to me like the responsible guy. He looks like a cheap politician in an expensive suit and contrary to popular opinion, I think John Boehner looks quite responsible and is doing well trying to juggle the various factions of his party...
and I like his hair.
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  #21  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

I agree. While hair is not a huge issue for me, I always judge candidates by the shape of their earlobes. As a backup I use toenails, but often candidates will conceal them with shoes and socks, which I think should be optional for televised debates. In any case, earlobes never lie.
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  #22  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:48 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.
Or maybe they'll get away with hope and change.
It could happen.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:00 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase

But notice this: He also said he strongly opposes same-sex marriage himself, which he's made clear. Still, his comments may further inflame some Tea Party critics, who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is the kind of editorial BS* that somehow passes for journalism. I am not aware that the teaparty is interested in anything as much as fiscal responsibility.

*Not to mention that it is sloppily phrased so that one is not entirely sure whether it is the tea party or critics of the tea party who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is very interesting. Now, you know there are many reporters itching to ask him his opinion on the Defense of Marriage Act.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase[/I]
And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
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  #25  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:17 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
Can you provide the exact quote of the outrageous secession claim that Perry made? And I mean a quote that Perry himself made, not one that Chris Matthews and/or Co. made about Perry.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Can you provide the exact quote of the outrageous secession claim that Perry made? And I mean a quote that Perry himself made, not one that Chris Matthews made about Perry.
Too bad you don't give Herman Cain the same benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqldJNzbFzI

By the way, among the 5 autosuggestions of Google were "rick perry secession" and "rick perry gay" - can't be good for the man.
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  #27  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:38 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I suppose I should actually watch Perry speak before I predict his chances to be POTUS. I've never actually done that; all I see is what the other side throws at him and it looks pretty weak to me.
I caught a snippet of one of his speeches. Something about federal government, a gym sock and one size fits all.
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  #28  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:40 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Too bad you don't give Herman Cain the same benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqldJNzbFzI

By the way, among the 5 autosuggestions of Google were "rick perry secession" and "rick perry gay" - can't be good for the man.
My condemnation of Herman Cain was based on the actual debate I saw.

I had seen Mathews and Maddow talk about Perry's secession talk..but I take that with a grain of salt.

However, before addressing this here, I had read one of his supposedly controversial comments on secession and didn't find it very controversial, and don't think most Americans will. I know that's not much research into it so I went to Politifact and found this:

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...atened-secede/

and this

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...as-seceding-u/

So, I don't think the so called secession talk with get much traction.

Perry was saying precisely the OPPOSITE of Texas should secede. He was saying we have a great union and there is absolutely no reason to dissolve it.

The idea that he may have been subscribing to, the ambiguity of which is edited out in your youtube link, is that Texas retained the legal right to secede at the time it joined the Union. This is not wild or controversial, in my opinion, and I don't think it will be an issue with anyone

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 04:42 PM..
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  #29  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:50 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
Obama in no way looks to me like the responsible guy. He looks like a cheap politician in an expensive suit and contrary to popular opinion, I think John Boehner looks quite responsible and is doing well trying to juggle the various factions of his party...
and I like his hair.
Well, I hate Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Someone ought to slap them into reality. But Obama's been really reasonable, IMO. That could also be because he's the world's worst negotiator. Still, I do like that he's tried from the very beginning to not play the Washington game. At this point, it's pretty clear that the solution isn't more politicians with better gamesmanship.

Also, I think he's got good old fashioned American values. That goes with his crappy understanding of money, business and economy. Still, I like the man. Though, I'm curious as to why you don't.

I totally agree about Mitch Daniels and the hair. Instant disqualification.

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I agree. While hair is not a huge issue for me, I always judge candidates by the shape of their earlobes. As a backup I use toenails, but often candidates will conceal them with shoes and socks, which I think should be optional for televised debates. In any case, earlobes never lie.
I wonder if it occurred to you that we might be joking.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:58 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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My condemnation of Herman Cain was based on the actual debate I saw.
And what did he say that offended you?

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Perry was saying precisely the OPPOSITE of Texas should secede. He was saying we have a great union and there is absolutely no reason to dissolve it.
You can't possibly be that naive. Suppose someone told you: "Whburgess, you're a great guy, and there's absolutely no reason to murder you, but if you keep thumbing your nose at me, who knows what might happen?" Would you not interpret that as a threat?

Of course, Perry's comment is worse, because he first stated that Texas actually had a "right" to secede. It's like that hypothetical person claiming that he has a right to murder you.

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The idea that he may have been subscribing to, the ambiguity of which is edited out in your youtube link, is that Texas retained the legal right to secede at the time it joined the Union.
Evidently, you didn't even read the links you posted. "At the time, Perry’s comments were widely interpreted as indicating the Republican governor believed secession could legally occur; he subsequently did not back down from that conclusion." Also, Politifact said: "What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat."

Perhaps now that Politifact actually disagrees with your interpretation, it's not a good source after all.
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  #31  
Old 07-26-2011, 05:18 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I wonder if it occurred to you that we might be joking.
Perhaps, wonderment knew this and was playing along?
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:32 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Perhaps, wonderment knew this and was playing along?
no. he REALLY wants to see the candidate's toes during debates - that was deadly serious. and darn it, i do too.

the tea party candidate? hell no, I want the toe party candidate!
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:52 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Of course, Perry's comment is worse, because he first stated that Texas actually had a "right" to secede. It's like that hypothetical person claiming that he has a right to murder you.
I'd be concerned if I perceived a threat to murder me.

I don't think asserting that Texas has a legal right to secede is controversial or a threat that anyone should be concerned about. Period. It may be factually inaccurate. It may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric 'Texas first" people, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Texas first people are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.

Quote:

Evidently, you didn't even read the links you posted. "At the time, Perry’s comments were widely interpreted as indicating the Republican governor believed secession could legally occur; he subsequently did not back down from that conclusion." Also, Politifact said: "What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat."

Perhaps now that Politifact actually disagrees with your interpretation, it's not a good source after all.
Right. I didn't read it all. I thought the way the statements being evaluated for truth or falsity were framed, and the resulting evaluation as to their truthfulness or falseness, was enough information to confirm my assessment of the matter. Your own research and quotations only further confirm my assessment, so thanks for that.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 06:04 PM..
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  #34  
Old 07-26-2011, 06:09 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'd be concerned if I perceived a threat to murder me.
I can imagine, but that was not the question. You claimed that Perry was in fact weighing in against secession, by selectively quoting him. I pointed out that you would not interpret that hypothetical statement by a psychopath as saying that you're a great guy who should NOT be murdered, because it is obviously a threat. Again, an instance of ad hoc interpretation. And in fact, your own source Politifact agrees with me that it was a veiled secession threat.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I don't think asserting that Texas has a legal right to secede is controversial
It's not controversial, it is wholly uncontroversial that Tejas does not have a legal right to secede. You can find the legal experts opining on this matter in your Politifact source (first link).

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Period.
That settles it, then.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
It may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric 'Texans first" people, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Texas first people are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.
Herman Cain's statements may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric anti-Islamists, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Anti-Islamists are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Right. I didn't read it all. I thought the way the statements being evaluated for truth or falsity were framed, and the resulting evaluation as to their truthfulness or falseness, was enough information to confirm my assessment of the matter. Your own research and quotations only further confirm my assessment, so thanks for that.
What assessment was that?
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  #35  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:14 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Again, an instance of ad hoc interpretation. And in fact, your own source Politifact agrees with me that it was a veiled secession threat.

Ok..i'll quote from the article:

Quote:
Using the Nexis search tool, we found 169 major newspaper articles linking Perry and secede. None quoted Perry threatening to push for secession, though critics and comedians framed his words in that way.

Typically, San Antonio Express-News reporter Roy Bragg wrote in an April 19, 2009 article: “The governor didn't make an actual threat to secede.” Bragg also quoted Harvey Tucker, a Texas A&M University political scientist, suggesting Perry saw political gain by speaking to secession. “He didn't intend (to) talk about it. He didn't plan it. He was just drawn into it,” Tucker said.

....

What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat. Then or since, however, he hasn’t said Texas should quit the United States. (You wudda read all about it.)
So you take an article that says Perry DID NOT make a threat to secede, but 'edged toward' such a threat, to mean that he actually made a veiled threat. Ok, have it your way. Thats reasonable.

I personally see it more the way the folks at politifact see it. That Bill Whites statement that:
In Rick Perry's Texas, the governor threatens to leave, to secede from the greatest country in the" world.
is not true, or almost true, or even mostly false. It is an absolutely false statement.

I think most Americans will see it the same way.

Quote:
Herman Cain's statements may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric anti-Islamists, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Anti-Islamists are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.
Anti-Islamists are not harmless.

I would very much fight for your right to be anti-islamist. I would never accuse you, apple, or your fellow anti-islamists of promoting violence and would never suggest that your rhetoric should be held responsible for violence against muslims, should that happen, and would defend you against such accusations.

However, I believe your words themselves are hurtful to your fellow Muslim Americans. And Cain's words were hurtful to any listening to him.
I believe Islamaphobes have a right to be Islamaphobes as long as they don't physically hurt anyone. But islamaphobic rhetoric hurts muslims in the same way that homophobic rhetoric hurts gays. Its just words, and people have a right to them that I would defend to the maximum, but its still not nice and I don't have to vote for people who engage in it.
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  #36  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:19 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Perhaps, wonderment knew this and was playing along?
More likely he was being smug and attempting a display of superiority over people he deems "less serious" and therefore less entitled to have opinions. If only the less serious people weren't around. Then we could just raise the debt ceiling a bunch of times and not cut any spending. Wouldn't that be grand? Of course, there will be damaged lefty egos to refute anything that hurts lefty egos. Then one can just point to real life.
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Last edited by sugarkang; 07-26-2011 at 07:26 PM..
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:25 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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But Obama's been really reasonable, IMO. That could also be because he's the world's worst negotiator. Still, I do like that he's tried from the very beginning to not play the Washington game. At this point, it's pretty clear that the solution isn't more politicians with better gamesmanship.
Obama.......not......play......the....Washington game.........

The guy who said this in 2006:

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership . Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit....

.....And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on. Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities."


That guy?

The guy who borrowed a $trillion to infuse unions and other dem voters and when asked about it formed a debt commission to delay even discussing the debt until after the 2010 midterms?

The guy who said how important that commission was to getting things right and then greeted the results by ignoring everything they recommended??

The guy who was so concerned about 'critical investments in infrastructure' that he directed 6% of the stimulus towards them?

The guy who channeled a huge amount of the stimulus billions for 'education' into keeping unsustainable public employee benefits and pensions afloat till after the midterms?

The guy who directed his own party not to create an official budget as a way of carrying over unspent stimulus billions???

The guy who came up with a fantasy spendapolooza budget that his own party rejected unanimously as a way to delay another six months????

The guy who still hasn't put any details on paper on where he will cut what even he admits is reckless spending and unsustainable debt?????

The guy who invoked Ronald Reagan last night for lifting the debt ceiling numerous times without adding that Reagan did it as a compromise (Obama's favorite word last night) with DEMOCRATS in exchange for promises of spending cuts that never materialized (AKA the same deal he's offering now)??????

The guy who lied through his teeth about not issuing social security checks as a way to spook the old folks into forcing the republicans' hand???????

That guy?

Change You Can Believe In!
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:26 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
I meant his actual vocal style.
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  #39  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:29 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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That guy?
If you're gonna be like that about it, who isn't guilty? The measure of a man is what he does in comparison to his peers. You can only take your anti-slavery message so far when all your peers are slave owners.

Tyler Cowen has good insight, I think.

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Put all that behind us but store it in memory. When I see President Obama considering an increase in the Medicare retirement age, here is what I do not infer:

1. I do not infer he is a coward (didn’t he stake his whole political future on ACA?).

2. I do not infer that he is a worse bargainer than are the Republicans.

3. I do not infer that he is a very stupid man.

4. I do not infer White House cabal theories which have his mind in the hands of evil villains, hellbent on reelection and ready to throw all progressive principles to the winds.
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  #40  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:35 PM
Hal Morris Hal Morris is offline
 
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Default On the 'Reactions to Oslo' Segment:

It is true that if you smooth the curve out, the world has been on a path to less violence, but I would not be too complacent about that. First of all such things don't necessarily move along in a nice stable predictable path (I don't think you can show me a "trend" that would have predicted the auto-genocide of Cambodia; and the whole 20th century seems full of radical discontinuities). Second, in terms of the harm that one person or a handful of people can do, we seem to be on a trajectory that might end with the personal pocket atom bomb.

As for Tucson and the accusations of incitement or calls for renewed civility, I think the extreme right, or "movement conservatism", whatever you call it, did not let that crisis go to waste (and they never do), and they won a flat-out victory over common sense.

First of all let me say 100 times this is not about censorship. One can say that someone's way of talking is reprehensible and possibly dangerous without having any desire for censorship. Elements on the right have just as strenuously critiquing rhetoric for decades. When there was widespread and widely accepted hate speech about black people, I think that contributed to lynchings and the old style "race riots" (white groups attacking the ghettos). The same was true of the Jews in eastern Europe. When radicals and radical wannabees of my generation went around calling police "pigs", I think that contributed to a wave of police shootings.

The point is not that someone is legally liable for saying vile and irresponsible things. The criticism of Sarah Palin for her "gun site" ads should have been taken to mean "Do we want someone so reckless about what her communications suggest running the country?" But the right went on a tear finding the earliest slightest suggestion to that effect and shooting it down preemptively, starting before we knew if Giffords was going to live or not. I know because I'm close to someone who was following it on right wing blogs which she regularly reads and believes, and I was in the same room.

We should not allow this crap to pass -- this ju-jitsu trick of calling every critic a censor who wants to lock up the "politically incorrect" in concentration camps.
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