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  #1  
Old 07-26-2011, 01:19 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Non-Glibertarian Edition (Adam Serwer & Katherine Mangu-Ward)

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  #2  
Old 07-26-2011, 01:57 AM
opposable_crumbs opposable_crumbs is offline
 
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Default A decade of jumping the gun

The Bush Gore Election hinged on the media jumping the gun, and here we are decade later still catching up.
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  #3  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:02 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

Regarding Adam's disappointment over Obama's negotiating skills. Obama has no political capital left. He spent it all on ObamaCare and hasn't been able to accumulate any more because of owning the worse economy since the depression

He and his advisers know that his poll ratings are above 40% on the strength of his personality alone and that this won't mean squat in the next election unless Republicans nominate Bachmann or Palin--which they know isn't going to happen.

If Obama is not re elected the Republicans will have it all in 2012 election; both houses and the Presidency. Adam, if you are unhappy with what a democrat President is doing, imagine this scenario.

Look at it this way, Obama's policies (regardless of whether he is in fact moderate or not) and negotiations also have to take political realities into account. His primary goal, and obligation to his liberal constituency, is NOT to achieve more liberal policies; he has assumed that he's done all he can in that area. His primary goal, and obligation to his constituency, is to prevent Republicans from taking over everything. It will be a huge political victory, as close as ever to a miracle, if he achieves this. Look at it through this prism while trying to understand why he's been negotiating as he has.

Just my two cents as a Republican who admires President Obama, feels he is playing the game brilliantly, and hopes he fails utterly.
(When I say I hope he fails, I mean, of course, in getting reelected.)

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 02:08 AM..
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:38 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

Quote:
He and his advisers know that his poll ratings are above 40% on the strength of his personality alone and that this won't mean squat in the next election unless Republicans nominate Bachmann or Palin--which they know isn't going to happen.
Not necessarily. Republicans could shoot themselves in the foot in a variety of ways independent of Obama's personality. All the current Republican candidates look unelectable on their own (de)merits, and that goes in spades for Rick Perry (arguably the worst of the lot).
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:50 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
Not necessarily. Republicans could shoot themselves in the foot in a variety of ways independent of Obama's personality. All the current Republican candidates look unelectable on their own (de)merits, and that goes in spades for Rick Perry (arguably the worst of the lot).
I disagree. I think either Romney or Perry will be the next POTUS. I don't think the fact that Perry prays really bugs anyone except the folks at MSNBC and others who would never vote for him anyway.
Same in regards to his so called 'preacher problems' trumpeted on that network; I certainly don't think any of these preachers will offend those swing voters as much as Reverend "God damn America" Wright did-- and they still elected his parishioner.
Then there is the whole questioning of his patriotism in regards to Texas secession, that's a non starter as well, no one is going to believe Perry is anti American.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 02:54 AM..
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:52 AM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I think either Romney or Perry will be the next POTUS.
Romney I'm worried about. Perry? Not so much. I think Perry is a ten times worse than Romney, but that's why he'll never get elected. Too horrifying. Like The Return of W (on steroids).

Quote:
I don't think the fact that Perry prays really bugs anyone except the folks at MSNBC and others who would never vote for him anyway.
What presidential candidate doesn't pray? They all pray. Pray2play.
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:16 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
I think Perry is a ten times worse than Romney, but that's why he'll never get elected. Too horrifying. Like The Return of W (on steroids).
I suppose I should actually watch Perry speak before I predict his chances to be POTUS. I've never actually done that; all I see is what the other side throws at him and it looks pretty weak to me.

He doesn't physically look like W, but if his mannerisms remind people of W, if he struggles to complete his sentences for example, that will go against him. However, having a southern accent and being from Texas isn't going to be enough for swing voters to equate him to W. That's my guess.

But the election isn't going to be about the Republican candidate unless that candidate does something him or her self which makes him the issue. I know the left and their friends in the media will do their best to make the election not a referendum on the economy, but it won't work.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2011, 02:40 PM
Wonderment Wonderment is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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But the election isn't going to be about the Republican candidate unless that candidate does something him or her self which makes him the issue. I know the left and their friends in the media will do their best to make the election not a referendum on the economy, but it won't work.
We'll see. Both sides need to run on the economy. When the Republicans can simply emit slogans about cutting government "fraud and waste," reducing foreign debt, and reducing taxes for billionaire "job creators," it may sound appealing. But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:48 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.
Or maybe they'll get away with hope and change.
It could happen.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:17 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Wonderment View Post
We'll see. Both sides need to run on the economy. When the Republicans can simply emit slogans about cutting government "fraud and waste," reducing foreign debt, and reducing taxes for billionaire "job creators," it may sound appealing. But when they actually have to detail how they will get there (slashing entitlements), voters will hate them.
That seems to be the conventional wisdom. However, we'll see. If the Walkers and Kaisichs start showing real results and political momentum, I'd say even this slim hope of Obama (That the American people are irredeemably corrupted) is gone.
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  #11  
Old 07-27-2011, 12:25 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by Sulla the Dictator View Post
That seems to be the conventional wisdom. However, we'll see. If the Walkers and Kaisichs start showing real results and political momentum, I'd say even this slim hope of Obama (That the American people are irredeemably corrupted) is gone.
That would depend on the results that they show. Seems that some results are popping up and it's not helping Kaisich et al.
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  #12  
Old 07-28-2011, 12:44 AM
Sulla the Dictator Sulla the Dictator is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
That would depend on the results that they show. Seems that some results are popping up and it's not helping Kaisich et al.
Its pretty early yet. I'd say we won't know until a full year goes by. These GOP governors are glorious as far as I'm concerned.
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  #13  
Old 07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post

He doesn't physically look like W, but if his mannerisms remind people of W, if he struggles to complete his sentences for example, that will go against him. However, having a southern accent and being from Texas isn't going to be enough for swing voters to equate him to W. That's my guess.
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase

But notice this: He also said he strongly opposes same-sex marriage himself, which he's made clear. Still, his comments may further inflame some Tea Party critics, who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is the kind of editorial BS* that somehow passes for journalism. I am not aware that the teaparty is interested in anything as much as fiscal responsibility.

*Not to mention that it is sloppily phrased so that one is not entirely sure whether it is the tea party or critics of the tea party who have questioned his conservative credentials.
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Last edited by badhatharry; 07-26-2011 at 03:46 PM..
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  #14  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:00 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase

But notice this: He also said he strongly opposes same-sex marriage himself, which he's made clear. Still, his comments may further inflame some Tea Party critics, who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is the kind of editorial BS* that somehow passes for journalism. I am not aware that the teaparty is interested in anything as much as fiscal responsibility.

*Not to mention that it is sloppily phrased so that one is not entirely sure whether it is the tea party or critics of the tea party who have questioned his conservative credentials.

This is very interesting. Now, you know there are many reporters itching to ask him his opinion on the Defense of Marriage Act.
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:11 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
He really sounds a lot like W. But I haven't heard him struggling to finish sentences. He is quite articulate and he's cutting to the chase[/I]
And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:17 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
Can you provide the exact quote of the outrageous secession claim that Perry made? And I mean a quote that Perry himself made, not one that Chris Matthews and/or Co. made about Perry.
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  #17  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:26 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Can you provide the exact quote of the outrageous secession claim that Perry made? And I mean a quote that Perry himself made, not one that Chris Matthews made about Perry.
Too bad you don't give Herman Cain the same benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqldJNzbFzI

By the way, among the 5 autosuggestions of Google were "rick perry secession" and "rick perry gay" - can't be good for the man.
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  #18  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:40 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Too bad you don't give Herman Cain the same benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqldJNzbFzI

By the way, among the 5 autosuggestions of Google were "rick perry secession" and "rick perry gay" - can't be good for the man.
My condemnation of Herman Cain was based on the actual debate I saw.

I had seen Mathews and Maddow talk about Perry's secession talk..but I take that with a grain of salt.

However, before addressing this here, I had read one of his supposedly controversial comments on secession and didn't find it very controversial, and don't think most Americans will. I know that's not much research into it so I went to Politifact and found this:

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...atened-secede/

and this

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...as-seceding-u/

So, I don't think the so called secession talk with get much traction.

Perry was saying precisely the OPPOSITE of Texas should secede. He was saying we have a great union and there is absolutely no reason to dissolve it.

The idea that he may have been subscribing to, the ambiguity of which is edited out in your youtube link, is that Texas retained the legal right to secede at the time it joined the Union. This is not wild or controversial, in my opinion, and I don't think it will be an issue with anyone

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 04:42 PM..
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  #19  
Old 07-26-2011, 04:58 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
My condemnation of Herman Cain was based on the actual debate I saw.
And what did he say that offended you?

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Perry was saying precisely the OPPOSITE of Texas should secede. He was saying we have a great union and there is absolutely no reason to dissolve it.
You can't possibly be that naive. Suppose someone told you: "Whburgess, you're a great guy, and there's absolutely no reason to murder you, but if you keep thumbing your nose at me, who knows what might happen?" Would you not interpret that as a threat?

Of course, Perry's comment is worse, because he first stated that Texas actually had a "right" to secede. It's like that hypothetical person claiming that he has a right to murder you.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
The idea that he may have been subscribing to, the ambiguity of which is edited out in your youtube link, is that Texas retained the legal right to secede at the time it joined the Union.
Evidently, you didn't even read the links you posted. "At the time, Perry’s comments were widely interpreted as indicating the Republican governor believed secession could legally occur; he subsequently did not back down from that conclusion." Also, Politifact said: "What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat."

Perhaps now that Politifact actually disagrees with your interpretation, it's not a good source after all.
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:52 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post

Of course, Perry's comment is worse, because he first stated that Texas actually had a "right" to secede. It's like that hypothetical person claiming that he has a right to murder you.
I'd be concerned if I perceived a threat to murder me.

I don't think asserting that Texas has a legal right to secede is controversial or a threat that anyone should be concerned about. Period. It may be factually inaccurate. It may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric 'Texas first" people, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Texas first people are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.

Quote:

Evidently, you didn't even read the links you posted. "At the time, Perry’s comments were widely interpreted as indicating the Republican governor believed secession could legally occur; he subsequently did not back down from that conclusion." Also, Politifact said: "What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat."

Perhaps now that Politifact actually disagrees with your interpretation, it's not a good source after all.
Right. I didn't read it all. I thought the way the statements being evaluated for truth or falsity were framed, and the resulting evaluation as to their truthfulness or falseness, was enough information to confirm my assessment of the matter. Your own research and quotations only further confirm my assessment, so thanks for that.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-26-2011 at 06:04 PM..
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  #21  
Old 07-26-2011, 06:09 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'd be concerned if I perceived a threat to murder me.
I can imagine, but that was not the question. You claimed that Perry was in fact weighing in against secession, by selectively quoting him. I pointed out that you would not interpret that hypothetical statement by a psychopath as saying that you're a great guy who should NOT be murdered, because it is obviously a threat. Again, an instance of ad hoc interpretation. And in fact, your own source Politifact agrees with me that it was a veiled secession threat.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I don't think asserting that Texas has a legal right to secede is controversial
It's not controversial, it is wholly uncontroversial that Tejas does not have a legal right to secede. You can find the legal experts opining on this matter in your Politifact source (first link).

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Period.
That settles it, then.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
It may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric 'Texans first" people, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Texas first people are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.
Herman Cain's statements may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric anti-Islamists, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Anti-Islamists are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Right. I didn't read it all. I thought the way the statements being evaluated for truth or falsity were framed, and the resulting evaluation as to their truthfulness or falseness, was enough information to confirm my assessment of the matter. Your own research and quotations only further confirm my assessment, so thanks for that.
What assessment was that?
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  #22  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:14 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
Again, an instance of ad hoc interpretation. And in fact, your own source Politifact agrees with me that it was a veiled secession threat.

Ok..i'll quote from the article:

Quote:
Using the Nexis search tool, we found 169 major newspaper articles linking Perry and secede. None quoted Perry threatening to push for secession, though critics and comedians framed his words in that way.

Typically, San Antonio Express-News reporter Roy Bragg wrote in an April 19, 2009 article: “The governor didn't make an actual threat to secede.” Bragg also quoted Harvey Tucker, a Texas A&M University political scientist, suggesting Perry saw political gain by speaking to secession. “He didn't intend (to) talk about it. He didn't plan it. He was just drawn into it,” Tucker said.

....

What we find: In a politically theatrical moment, Perry edged toward a secession threat. Then or since, however, he hasn’t said Texas should quit the United States. (You wudda read all about it.)
So you take an article that says Perry DID NOT make a threat to secede, but 'edged toward' such a threat, to mean that he actually made a veiled threat. Ok, have it your way. Thats reasonable.

I personally see it more the way the folks at politifact see it. That Bill Whites statement that:
In Rick Perry's Texas, the governor threatens to leave, to secede from the greatest country in the" world.
is not true, or almost true, or even mostly false. It is an absolutely false statement.

I think most Americans will see it the same way.

Quote:
Herman Cain's statements may be designed to appeal to a lot of eccentric anti-Islamists, but none of this makes it controversial or crazy talk to me. Politicians often intentionally say things that somewhat eccentric groups will find comfort in, and this is only a bad thing if it incites violence or undesirable effects in the society. Anti-Islamists are harmless, so pandering to them is harmless and uncontroversial to me and I think it will be an insignificant issue in the election. I suppose we'll have to wait and see about that.
Anti-Islamists are not harmless.

I would very much fight for your right to be anti-islamist. I would never accuse you, apple, or your fellow anti-islamists of promoting violence and would never suggest that your rhetoric should be held responsible for violence against muslims, should that happen, and would defend you against such accusations.

However, I believe your words themselves are hurtful to your fellow Muslim Americans. And Cain's words were hurtful to any listening to him.
I believe Islamaphobes have a right to be Islamaphobes as long as they don't physically hurt anyone. But islamaphobic rhetoric hurts muslims in the same way that homophobic rhetoric hurts gays. Its just words, and people have a right to them that I would defend to the maximum, but its still not nice and I don't have to vote for people who engage in it.
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  #23  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:52 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Ok..i'll quote from the article:

So you take an article that says Perry DID NOT make a threat to secede, but 'edged toward' such a threat, to mean that he actually made a veiled threat. Ok, have it your way. Thats reasonable.
It may not be the exact same thing, but even you have to admit that it's pretty close. He didn't explicitly threaten to secede, which Politifact described as "edged toward", and I described as a "veiled threat". Anyway, if you don't, I'm OK describing it as "edging toward" a secession threat. It doesn't make him look any better in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I personally see it more the way the folks at politifact see it. That Bill Whites statement that:
In Rick Perry's Texas, the governor threatens to leave, to secede from the greatest country in the" world.
is not true, or almost true, or even mostly false. It is an absolutely false statement.
Strawman and splitting hairs. That is not a claim I made, and is therefore irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he believes that Tejas has a right to secede, which legal experts know is not true. And fact is also that he (at the very least) edged toward making a threat to secede, which also does not make him look good.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Anti-Islamists are not harmless.
Either we're going to define "harm" as concrete harm, or we're going to define it as hurt feelings. Your argument seems to be that anti-Islamists hurt the feelings of Muslims, and that they are therefore not harmless. I could easily say that anyone who disagrees with me hurts my feelings and that they are therefore not harmless. Rick Perry hurts my feelings by threatening to secede.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I would very much fight for your right to be anti-islamist. I would never accuse you, apple, or your fellow anti-islamists of promoting violence and would never suggest that your rhetoric should be held responsible for violence against muslims, should that happen, and would defend you against such accusations.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
However, I believe your words themselves are hurtful to your fellow Muslim Americans. And Cain's words were hurtful to any listening to him.
I still don't know what he said that you find so offensive.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I believe Islamaphobes have a right to be Islamaphobes as long as they don't physically hurt anyone. But islamaphobic rhetoric hurts muslims in the same way that homophobic rhetoric hurts gays. Its just words, and people have a right to them that I would defend to the maximum, but its still not nice and I don't have to vote for people who engage in it.
It's interesting, when Robert Wright compared "Islamophobia" to homophobia on the website of the New York Times, all the liberals there objected to this comparison. It's disappointing to see a conservative buying into such an equivalence.

Are Nazis entitled to the same rights as Muslims? Naziphobia hurts the feelings of Nazis, would you therefore avoid voting for critics of Nazism?
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  #24  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:31 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post
It may not be the exact same thing, but even you have to admit that it's pretty close. He didn't explicitly threaten to secede, which Politifact described as "edged toward", and I described as a "veiled threat". Anyway, if you don't, I'm OK describing it as "edging toward" a secession threat. It doesn't make him look any better in my book.
I'm sure he'd take it back if he could. I'm also sure it isn't going to be a significant factor in his chances.


Quote:
Either we're going to define "harm" as concrete harm, or we're going to define it as hurt feelings. Your argument seems to be that anti-Islamists hurt the feelings of Muslims, and that they are therefore not harmless. I could easily say that anyone who disagrees with me hurts my feelings and that they are therefore not harmless. Rick Perry hurts my feelings by threatening to secede.
Some peoples feelings should be hurt. I don't think Muslim Americans are in this class of people. But you do have a right to make them feel hated with your words. And Rick Perry has a right to make you feel hated with his take on the rights of Texas to secede. And if anyone else is in the odd position of feeling the Perry is engaged in hurtful speech with this, they won't support him (I'm sure he's so worried about that).

Quote:
I still don't know what he said that you find so offensive.
That Muslims should undergo a vetting process more rigorous then others to affirm their loyalty, and that cities have a right to ban mosques for no other reason then they are mosques.

Quote:
It's interesting, when Robert Wright compared "Islamophobia" to homophobia on the website of the New York Times, all the liberals there objected to this comparison. It's disappointing to see a conservative buying into such an equivalence.
I may be comparing, but I'm not saying they are exactly equivalent.
I'm saying they are both needlessly hurtful.

Quote:
Are Nazis entitled to the same rights as Muslims? Naziphobia hurts the feelings of Nazis, would you therefore avoid voting for critics of Nazism?
Yes. As long as they don't physically hurt anyone.

However, it's hard for me to imagine nazi ideology being compatible with a good person. So I don't really care if Nazis get their feelings hurt.

There are a lot of good Muslim people, I do care about them.
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  #25  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I'm sure he'd take it back if he could. I'm also sure it isn't going to be a significant factor in his chances.
Then why would he take it back if he could? Your own source Politifact mentions that he has subsequently refused to back down. Apparently, he does think that this is important.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Some peoples feelings should be hurt.
By what standard do we determine whose feelings should be hurt?

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I don't think Muslim Americans are in this class of people. But you do have a right to make them feel hated with your words. And Rick Perry has a right to make you feel hated with his take on the rights of Texas to secede. And if anyone else is in the odd position of feeling the Perry is engaged in hurtful speech with this, they won't support him (I'm sure he's so worried about that).
So why do you back up the Muslims in repudiating Herman Cain, but not me?

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
That Muslims should undergo a vetting process more rigorous then others to affirm their loyalty, and that cities have a right to ban mosques for no other reason then they are mosques.
He did not make that second statement during the debate. The first statement seems like common sense, which is Verboten under the current norms of political correctness. And of course, political correctness means that 4-year old children should be groped by the TSA, in order not to commit ethnic and religious profiling. It's disgusting.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Yes. As long as they don't physically hurt anyone.

However, it's hard for me to imagine nazi ideology being compatible with a good person. So I don't really care if Nazis get their feelings hurt.
Why is Nazi ideology not compatible with being a good person?

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
There are a lot of good Muslim people, I do care about them.
I care so much about them, that I want them to be liberated from the enslavement that is Islam. Islam means 'submission' and is incompatible with one's existence as a free man. Just like Abraham Lincoln wished for all men from the monstrous physical enslavement that was chattel slavery, I wish for all men to be free of the monstrous spiritual enslavement that is Islam.
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  #26  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:56 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by apple View Post

He did not make that second statement during the debate. The first statement seems like common sense, which is Verboten under the current norms of political correctness. And of course, political correctness means that 4-year old children should be groped by the TSA, in order not to commit ethnic and religious profiling. It's disgusting.
You don't think terrorists could use children?
If you think they could, how would you decide which children should be groped?

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I care so much about them, that I want them to be liberated from the enslavement that is Islam. Islam means 'submission' and is incompatible with one's existence as a free man. Just like Abraham Lincoln wished for all men from the monstrous physical enslavement that was chattel slavery, I wish for all men to be free of the monstrous spiritual enslavement that is Islam.
Slaves didn't have a choice, American Muslims do. But you knew that, of course.
It is statements like this that make me wonder if you aren't trolling.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:03 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
You don't think terrorists could use children?
If you think they could, how would you decide which children should be groped?
I do not think any child should be groped. The fact that children might be used by terrorists is a risk we'll have to take. Just like I'm willing to take an infinitesimal chance of the plane I'm in being blown up, for the privilege of flying without being groped by the TSA.

Ethnic and religious profiling can take care of the adults - this is what Israel is doing, and very successfully.

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Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Slaves didn't have a choice, American Muslims do. But you knew that, of course.
It is statements like this that make me wonder if you aren't trolling.
Enslavement is an evil beyond the fact that it is involuntary. Drug users also chose to start using drugs, but it's enslavement nonetheless. Drug use is outlawed, because we do not believe that people have a right to make slaves out of themselves, just like (voluntary) debt bondage is not allowed. Similarly, Islam is a form of enslavement of which I disapprove, because I care about the victims.

I wish for all men to be free from such depravities, even if that offends people.

Last edited by apple; 07-26-2011 at 09:06 PM..
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  #28  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:16 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I do not think any child should be groped. The fact that children might be used by terrorists is a risk we'll have to take. Just like I'm willing to take an infinitesimal chance of the plane I'm in being blown up, for the privilege of flying without being groped by the TSA.

Ethnic and religious profiling can take care of the adults - this is what Israel is doing, and very successfully.
I actually wouldn't be opposed to your approach to this. Although I can't really muster any passion for it.

Quote:
Enslavement is an evil beyond the fact that it is involuntary. Drug users also chose to start using drugs, but it's enslavement nonetheless. Drug use is outlawed, because we do not believe that people have a right to make slaves out of themselves, just like (voluntary) debt bondage is not allowed. Similarly, Islam is a form of enslavement of which I disapprove, because I care about the victims.

I wish for all men to be free from such depravities, even if that offends people.
Some would say you are enslaved to a depraved ideology. I'd say it's your choice.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:22 PM
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Some would say you are enslaved to a depraved ideology. I'd say it's your choice.
People can "say" that the Sun is an agent of the CIA, but that doesn't make it so. I think for myself, and am non-ideological, so it would make little sense for someone to say that.

But let's assume that this could be reasonable claimed. Should these people shut up, simply because it might hurt my feelings to have my ideology criticized (it doesn't)? Which returns us to the fact of whether anti-Islamism is harmful or not. Just because it hurts the feelings of Muslims, does not mean that it is harmful, anymore than criticism of my beliefs is harmful, because it might hurt my feelings. In fact, I'd say that anti-Islamism is beneficial. We should not pretend that Islam is a benign religion, and that it does no harm to the people who have submitted, and to others. It does. As I said, I wish for all men to be free, and not be in a state of submission to a 7th century desert ideology.
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:46 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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People can "say" that the Sun is an agent of the CIA, but that doesn't make it so. I think for myself, and am non-ideological, so it would make little sense for someone to say that.

But let's assume that this could be reasonable claimed. Should these people shut up, simply because it might hurt my feelings to have my ideology criticized (it doesn't)? Which returns us to the fact of whether anti-Islamism is harmful or not. Just because it hurts the feelings of Muslims, does not mean that it is harmful, anymore than criticism of my beliefs is harmful, because it might hurt my feelings. In fact, I'd say that anti-Islamism is beneficial. We should not pretend that Islam is a benign religion, and that it does no harm to the people who have submitted, and to others. It does. As I said, I wish for all men to be free, and not be in a state of submission to a 7th century desert ideology.
I really doubt that your motive is that you feel sorry for American Muslims enslaved to their ideology. Your way of going about it really doesn't make that claim credible. I think you know you wouldn't convince any Muslim to change their mind like this. But carry on..it's your right.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I really doubt that your motive is that you feel sorry for American Muslims enslaved to their ideology. Your way of going about it really doesn't make that claim credible. I think you know you wouldn't convince any Muslim to change their mind like this. But carry on..it's your right.
That is unlikely to happen anyway. I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:34 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.
remember, almost two billion people.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:32 AM
apple
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remember, almost two billion people.
Does the number of people following a particular ideology have any bearing on whether or not it should be socially acceptable or unacceptable?
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:42 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Does the number of people following a particular ideology have any bearing on whether or not it should be socially acceptable or unacceptable?
It has a bearing on whether it will be socially acceptable. Were it not, there wouldn't be many adherents.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:14 PM
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It has a bearing on whether it will be socially acceptable. Were it not, there wouldn't be many adherents.
Well, I wasn't really discussing whether Islam IS socially acceptable, but whether it should be. Also, your second statement is fallacious. A religion can have many adherents throughout the word, yet be socially unacceptable in other parts. And that's what we were discussing, whether Islam should be socially unacceptable throughout the Western world.
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Old 07-27-2011, 06:27 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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Well, I wasn't really discussing whether Islam IS socially acceptable, but whether it should be. Also, your second statement is fallacious. A religion can have many adherents throughout the word, yet be socially unacceptable in other parts. And that's what we were discussing, whether Islam should be socially unacceptable throughout the Western world.
thanks for clarifying
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Old 07-27-2011, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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thanks for clarifying
You're welcome.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:05 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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That is unlikely to happen anyway. I think that Islam should be made socially unacceptable, and that might have an effect.
The best way to destroy an extremist religion is to send adherents a bunch of American movies, including pornography.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:26 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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And I didn't hear W make outrageous claims about secession when he was governor of Texas.
I meant his actual vocal style.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:53 PM
apple
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Default Re: Obama's political capital and his negotiation skills

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I meant his actual vocal style.
I know. You compared his "actual vocal style" favorably to George W. Bush, suggesting that he would be a better candidate. However, I pointed out that Bush did not have Perry's history of extremism, and that Perry would therefore probably be a weaker candidate than Bush.
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