Go Back   Bloggingheads Community > Diavlog comments
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Diavlog comments Post comments about particular diavlogs here.
(Users cannot create new threads.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
BhTV staff
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,936
Default Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:27 AM
MargaretH MargaretH is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lexington MA
Posts: 29
Default Yes! Thank you....

I am a lapsed Presbyterian with no special interest in un-lapsing. If I did, I'd want Pastor Sweringen for my minister. I will remember the quote from Acts: Don't call unclean what I call clean.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-29-2011, 01:05 AM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,332
Default Re: Yes! Thank you....

Amen!! I'm a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, but if I was a believer Anna would be the type of person I would love to have inspire me. Thanks to both for a great diavlog. It was an excellent reminder that not all Christians fit the mold of the ones who usually holler the loudest. Keep up the good fight.

Incidentally, I just went to a gay wedding a couple weekends ago and it was awesome. It was wonderful to see too amazing people in love coming together in full view of their family and friends. Their gender was completely irrelevant when cast in the shadow of the brilliant light of their love.
__________________
Uncle Ebeneezer Such a fine line between clever and stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:43 AM
Romanized Romanized is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 75
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

If they are not going to take serious the sacred text of the Christian faith, then why are you going through the exercise of calling yourself Christian? Why not call it all a myth and be on your way?

Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:46 AM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
If they are not going to take serious the sacred text of the Christian faith, then why are you going through the exercise of calling yourself Christian? Why not call it all a myth and be on your way?
They do take it seriously, just not literally. And how that is possible? Ask Augustine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.
No, liberal churches are dying, because adherents are generally prosperous, and prosperity correlates with secularization, whereas fundamentalist churches (generally) hoard the poor, uneducated and easy to command.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:49 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.
For the community. Kierkegaard would've hated it, but I think it can still be meaningful.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-29-2011, 03:45 AM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,202
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
For the community. Kierkegaard would've hated it, but I think it can still be meaningful.
Since Kierkegaard is one of my favorite writers, I'm wondering how you tie him to this.

I know he is often misunderstood with his 'leap of faith' concept, so I'm guessing you're suggesting these diavloggers really don't believe in Christianity but are only pretending to in order to help the community?

Or is it the liberal church of Kierkegaards era that you are associating with these people? If this is the case, Kierkegaard was in polemic against a completely different kind of liberalism. The liberalism of his day attempted to turn the Gospel into a metaphor for their dialectic philosophy. So it became irrelevant to them as to whether Jesus ever really existed in history or not. I think these two diavlogger, in talking about "God's Holy Word" and "the Holy Spirit" come across as having an orthodox understanding of the Gospel. They just differ with other Christians on the whether God will bless gay unions or not.

Last edited by whburgess; 07-29-2011 at 03:54 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-29-2011, 09:41 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
I know he is often misunderstood with his 'leap of faith' concept, so I'm guessing you're suggesting these diavloggers really don't believe in Christianity but are only pretending to in order to help the community?
I don't think it's my place to suggest that even if Kierkegaard might or might not have thought otherwise.

Quote:
Or is it the liberal church of Kierkegaards era that you are associating with these people? If this is the case, Kierkegaard was in polemic against a completely different kind of liberalism. The liberalism of his day attempted to turn the Gospel into a metaphor for their dialectic philosophy. So it became irrelevant to them as to whether Jesus ever really existed in history or not. I think these two diavlogger, in talking about "God's Holy Word" and "the Holy Spirit" come across as having an orthodox understanding of the Gospel. They just differ with other Christians on the whether God will bless gay unions or not.
I'll have to defer to you on any specifics about religion and the history of Christianity as I am but a poor atheist.

It's been quite some years since I've had university lectures on Kierkegaard. I only remember that he despised church members for much of the same reason that atheists despise them, i.e., the self-congratulatory masturbation and rank hypocrisy. But Kierkegaard recognized this and still managed to get to his leap of faith and, thus, overcame my prime objection to religion.

But Kierkegaard's (attempted) validation of religion doesn't negate my belief in the absence of God. For that, one requires an atheist. I'm referring to Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil:

Quote:
Whoever ventures to answer these metaphysical questions at once by an appeal to a sort of intuitive perception, like the person who says, "I think, and know that this, at least is true, actual, and certain" - will encounter a smile and two question marks from a philosopher nowadays. "Sir," the philosopher will perhaps give him to understand, "it is improbable that you are not mistaken; but why insist on the truth?"
This quickly gets us beyond the scope of the original topic, but I only want to say that this casts doubt on the very basics of solipsism and Cartesian logic. That is, I can't really know anything for sure. And if I'm ever self-righteously indignant about something, in the case of morality, it's usually to point out that other people don't, either.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.

Last edited by sugarkang; 07-29-2011 at 09:59 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-29-2011, 10:05 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
IThis quickly gets us beyond the scope of the original topic, but I only want to say that this casts doubt on the very basics of solipsism and Cartesian logic. That is, I can't really know anything for sure.
I humbly submit that among the "anything" one can't know for sure is the character and moral nature of people in various modes of anonymity that one encounters on an internet forum.

Just a thought.

:-)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-29-2011, 10:17 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
I humbly submit that among the "anything" one can't know for sure is the character and moral nature of people in various modes of anonymity that one encounters on an internet forum.

Just a thought.

:-)
If you're referring to the people, then I agree. We still have the validity of the arguments, however. Those can be judged and should be judged.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-29-2011, 10:54 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
If you're referring to the people, then I agree. We still have the validity of the arguments, however. Those can be judged and should be judged.
Oh, sure.

I don't always live up to this, but I tend to think of behavior as dramatically more context specific than most people do. I have known enough wonderful people IRL who had pretty horrible flaws in specific areas (I have been and may still be one of those people myself). I also know that kids can be complete angels at school and devils at home or vice versa.

So, even if someone tends to act like a complete douche in the only context I know them in (say, at work, or on the specific internet forum I am in, or at church, or whatever), it doesn't mean that they're not a wonderful spouse or parent or that they don't have a secret and rich inner life or that they won't throw themselves in front of a subway to save a stranger. This doesn't of course mean I have to interact with them any more than necessary, but does mitigate against the global statements about character.

It's also why I am more comfortable labeling ideas or behaviors as racist or bigoted or whathaveyou. I don't see this as an indication that the person displaying them is irredeemable or incapable of great good. They're engaging in a bad thing, but taht doesn't necessarily make them horrible people generally. I feel more comfortable labeling the behavior.

Like I said, that's my ideal and I certainly don't live up to it. But to the extent I do, it makes my life better.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:06 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
Like I said, that's my ideal and I certainly don't live up to it. But to the extent I do, it makes my life better.
I think we agree more than not.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:14 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
I think we agree more than not.
No doubt. Much of my work IRL is telling people stuff they already know.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:26 AM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
No doubt. Much of my work IRL is telling people stuff they already know.
Most of my work on here is fighting people on my ideological side.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-29-2011, 04:06 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,202
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
It's been quite some years since I've had university lectures on Kierkegaard. I only remember that he despised church members for much of the same reason that atheists despise them, i.e., the self-congratulatory masturbation and rank hypocrisy. But Kierkegaard recognized this and still managed to get to his leap of faith and, thus, overcame my prime objection to religion.
Just a note; Kierkegaard really didn't have a problem with the rank and file church members. He thought they were perfectly lovely Christians going about being Christians. His polemic was against the intellectual elite in the society and official Christendom of his day who claimed they were Christians while espousing a philosophy (and resulting theology) that was exactly opposite of the real, actual, Christianity of the lay members.

He showed that this scenario was an example of how so called 'intellectuals' can actually be buffoons and clowns completely divorced from the realities of their own existence as human beings. (A phenomena that never seems to go away.)

Your quote from Nietzsche, while I'm not familiar with the context, seems rather Kierkegaardian, in that the philosopher seems content to not insist on any truth since nothing can be intellectually certain, while the person he's addressing has made a commitment to what can only, intellectually, be nothing more then a possibility, because his existence as a human being requires truth.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-29-2011, 04:19 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
Your quote from Nietzsche, while I'm not familiar with the context, seems rather Kierkegaardian, in that the philosopher seems content to not insist on any truth since nothing can be intellectually certain, while the person he's addressing has made a commitment to what can only, intellectually, be nothing more then a possibility, because his existence as a human being requires truth.
So, which text do you recommend by Kierkegaard? I think Nietzsche was familiar with and respected K, but I can't recall him referencing K with much specificity in either of the two books I've read. Then again, I wouldn't be one to judge since I've only had a cursory introduction to K. Did K affect your religiosity at all? And which book is the best for beginners? My university class had either a class reader or snippets, I can't remember.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-29-2011, 04:52 PM
whburgess whburgess is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,202
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
So, which text do you recommend by Kierkegaard? I think Nietzsche was familiar with and respected K, but I can't recall him referencing K with much specificity in either of the two books I've read. Then again, I wouldn't be one to judge since I've only had a cursory introduction to K. Did K affect your religiosity at all? And which book is the best for beginners? My university class had either a class reader or snippets, I can't remember.
The ones which deal more specifically with what we are talking about at the moment is probably "Philosophical Fragments", "Concluding Unscientific Postscript" or "The Present Age"


While all his works are very philosophical, some of them are also very devotional at the same time, and these are my favorite. Specifically, "Works of Love" and "Purity of Heart is to Will One Thing".

Kierkegaard affected my religiosity probably more then any other writer except those in the Bible. I was raised very much a devoted fundamentalist sectarian. Reading him did several things for me.

--It destroyed any basis for the sectarianism that I was taught.

--Gave me a greater understanding of what real religion is as opposed to how it is used.

--gave me a greater respect for truly religious people everywhere

--made any intellectual affirmation of God's existence, which would include any number of known definitions of "God", irrelevant for me. This is why I would be considered agnostic or atheist by both some Christians and some atheists. And yet am a Christian in ways that some Christians would affirm is Christian. I personally feel both Christian and agnostic (or even atheist). I know it sounds strange, but it doesn't feel strange to me. I do feel that Kierkegaard contributed to this position of mine more then any other writer---although there are many more factors then books involved in this.

Oh--as an edit: That last effect, listed above, that Kierkegaard had on me may be an unfortunate one to him from a Christian perspective, but an understandable one from his philosophical perspective. And Kierkegaard was a master of different perspectives, writing many different books under different pseudonyms from different perspectives. I have even read treatises by atheists who believe his whole body of work, even those most treasured by Christians, was a magnificent ruse from an atheist perspective. And I think Kierkegaard himself would have acknowledged that this, also, is a reasonable perspective on his work. But I do think that underneath all of this, there was a level in which Kierkegaard dispensed with ambiguity and made a commitment to Christianity, it's just that, as I think he would confirm, communication is necessarily ambiguous, and that which is disambiguate only applies inwardly, to the individual.
--

Last edited by whburgess; 07-29-2011 at 05:13 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-29-2011, 05:18 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whburgess View Post
While all his works are very philosophical, some of them are also very devotional at the same time, and these are my favorite. Specifically, "Works of Love" and "Purity of Heart is to Will One Thing".
Okay, I'm going to look into it. Thanks.

Quote:
But I do think that underneath all of this, there was a level in which Kierkegaard dispensed with ambiguity and made a commitment to Christianity...
--
Yes, this comports with my rough understanding of how he lived his own devoutly religious life. The main lesson I got from my class was that Kierkegaard thinks logically. K is smarter than I am. Ergo, I have no right to think that Christians are idiots until I can prove that K was an idiot.

Cool, cool.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-28-2011, 10:31 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.
In Europe, they're often the official church of the state, which has its own set of issues. In America, apple is largely correct.

The liberal church I attend (church, not denomination) has about doubled in size in the four years I have been attending. It's been a huge problem in the vestry figuring out how to accomodate the much larger numbers in worship and still retain our own character.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-28-2011, 02:15 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: eastern sierra
Posts: 5,413
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
The liberal church I attend (church, not denomination) has about doubled in size in the four years I have been attending.
You're so popular!
__________________
"By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." Adam Smith
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-28-2011, 02:23 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
You're so popular!
????

That's bizarre. It's got nothing to do with me, and I didn't claim it did. I simply am giving an account of what I have witnessed, which goes against what someone else suggested.

Are you okay?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-30-2011, 09:55 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: eastern sierra
Posts: 5,413
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceelf View Post
????

That's bizarre. It's got nothing to do with me, and I didn't claim it did. I simply am giving an account of what I have witnessed, which goes against what someone else suggested.

Are you okay?
and you have no sense of humor.
__________________
"By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." Adam Smith
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-30-2011, 10:18 AM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by badhatharry View Post
and you have no sense of humor.
Anchorman is funny. Saved by the Bell isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-28-2011, 12:29 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,921
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
If they are not going to take serious the sacred text of the Christian faith, then why are you going through the exercise of calling yourself Christian?
I don't accept the premise that they don't take the text seriously.

Nor do I accept the premise that Christians who are more "liberal" than you prefer on certain things (the term "liberal" gets applied in a way that often makes little sense to religion) don't believe.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-28-2011, 07:11 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,606
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanized View Post
If they are not going to take serious the sacred text of the Christian faith, then why are you going through the exercise of calling yourself Christian? Why not call it all a myth and be on your way?

Liberal churches are dying across the US and Europe. More and more people think, "We don't believe and neither do the clergy. Why bother?" Good question.
People have been picking and choosing the values and beliefs they wish to follow from the bible and religion in general for thousands of years. Show the me person that follows it all to the letter and I will show you a fool, a frightening fool at that.

Picking and choosing is less pure, but it lets me know one important thing about the person, they do not outsource ALL of their judgments about ethics and morality to a third party source like the bible. They are not ethical and moral slaves/serfs, unthinking automatons who genuflect on bended knee like dogs, submitting their entire life and sense of morality to the standards of ancient desert peoples.

This is a good thing. Personally I have removed the veneer of religion entirely, then I don't have to justify the picking and choosing, tie myself in knots to say I am following X teaching, my way is the cleaner way, but maybe the more dangerous. For some people, I think it's probably beneficial to have the ethical training wheels religion provides, so long as that religious teaching is benign.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-28-2011, 01:11 PM
aajax aajax is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 29
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Wow. It is sad how humans make up stories to try to explain and shape the world into a better place, then end up fighting viciously over the various versions of the story. How much better it would be to focus on the point of making a world that works for everyone and drop the reliance on the old tribal stories, or at least again relegate them to the private sphere where they can't do so much damage.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-28-2011, 02:21 PM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: eastern sierra
Posts: 5,413
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajax View Post
Wow. It is sad how humans make up stories to try to explain and shape the world into a better place, then end up fighting viciously over the various versions of the story. How much better it would be to focus on the point of making a world that works for everyone and drop the reliance on the old tribal stories, or at least again relegate them to the private sphere where they can't do so much damage.
But those old tribal stories have wisdom and also tell the history of man's search for meaning. I agree, however, that fighting over various versions is pretty useless.
__________________
"By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." Adam Smith
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-28-2011, 02:49 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,921
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajax View Post
Wow. It is sad how humans make up stories to try to explain and shape the world into a better place, then end up fighting viciously over the various versions of the story. How much better it would be to focus on the point of making a world that works for everyone and drop the reliance on the old tribal stories, or at least again relegate them to the private sphere where they can't do so much damage.
I'm trying to figure out how this relates to the diavlog, and not seeing it. The 'heads disagree with many Christians about the correct way to apply Christian teachings to the question of homosexuality, but they didn't seem to be "fighting viciously" at all.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-28-2011, 03:33 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajax View Post
Wow. It is sad how humans make up stories to try to explain and shape the world into a better place, then end up fighting viciously over the various versions of the story. How much better it would be to focus on the point of making a world that works for everyone and drop the reliance on the old tribal stories, or at least again relegate them to the private sphere where they can't do so much damage.
Because that's rational explanation of what human beings should do. Human beings are irrational beings and what really matters are social dynamics that are proven to work and preserve social order. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. How long has atheism been around? Atheists are assholes. I know this because I am one.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-28-2011, 03:54 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,569
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Atheists are assholes. I know this because I am one.
Well, that's how I derive my knowledge of Christians.

But it might be more accurate to say that atheists are LIKE assholes. Everybody needs one.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-28-2011, 04:15 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. How long has atheism been around?
At least since Lucretius, and the many other skeptics of antiquity. Also, every person who has ever lived, was born an atheist. But since atheism is not an ideology, but rather a lack of something, one can't really say that atheism "has been around".
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-28-2011, 05:04 PM
aajax aajax is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 29
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

In the West, it can be traced further, back to 5th century BC Greece, where the pre-Socratic philosophers actually thought about things rather than absorbing pre-oackaged stories. In India, atheism can be traced to the 6th century BC school of Cārvāka. In every age, everywhere, there have been people struggling against well-intentioned superstition, closed mindedness and intolerance. The trouble is, belief is easy, thinking and dialogue are hard.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-28-2011, 08:41 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajax View Post
In the West, it can be traced further, back to 5th century BC Greece, where the pre-Socratic philosophers actually thought about things rather than absorbing pre-oackaged stories. In India, atheism can be traced to the 6th century BC school of Cārvāka. In every age, everywhere, there have been people struggling against well-intentioned superstition, closed mindedness and intolerance. The trouble is, belief is easy, thinking and dialogue are hard.
Okay, why is atheism superior to religion? Any intolerant religious person that you point out, I can point out a tolerant religious person. I can easily point out atheists that are just as intolerant. And even if I grant you that God doesn't exist, what difference does it make if it results in people getting together once a week to think about why they're grateful for their lives?

Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens

I'm an atheist, and I think Blair wins it.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:45 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Okay, why is atheism superior to religion? Any intolerant religious person that you point out, I can point out a tolerant religious person. I can easily point out atheists that are just as intolerant.
There is more to atheism/religion being good/bad than tolerance. I'm not convinced that tolerance is a good thing. Like Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. So we have to be careful what we tolerate.

Enlightened religion is not necessarily a bad thing. Believing in God, moral absolutes and reward and punishments after death is definitely a good thing. But there's not much that all the ridiculous creeds and rituals add to the good side of theism, and plenty that they add to the evil side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
And even if I grant you that God doesn't exist, what difference does it make if it results in people getting together once a week to think about why they're grateful for their lives?
If that is all there was to religion, nothing, but it isn't.

I'm not necessarily arguing that atheism is better (than enlightened religion). Atheism can lead to relativism. Many atheists are extremely irrational and stupid.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-30-2011, 12:06 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Palm Desert, CA
Posts: 811
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Okay, why is atheism superior to religion? Any intolerant religious person that you point out, I can point out a tolerant religious person. I can easily point out atheists that are just as intolerant. And even if I grant you that God doesn't exist, what difference does it make if it results in people getting together once a week to think about why they're grateful for their lives?

Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens

I'm an atheist, and I think Blair wins it.
I always forget who said it, but it was something along the lines of comparing best with best, worst with worst, when assessing things like religion vs. atheism, etc. (not that it's much of a useful endeavor to begin with, but..)

It seems an important reminder as we all tend to get biased towards cherry picking to prove points.
__________________
my blog
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-04-2011, 02:02 PM
aajax aajax is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 29
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

[QUOTE=sugarkang;219025]Okay, why is atheism superior to religion? Any intolerant religious person that you point out, I can point out a tolerant religious person. I can easily point out atheists that are just as intolerant.

If you study the history of tolerance, you will find that it was not invented by monotheist priests, that I can assure you.

[QUOTE=sugarkang;219025] And even if I grant you that God doesn't exist, what difference does it make if it results in people getting together once a week to think about why they're grateful for their lives?

I think that is a lovely thing, but are they are also grateful for the atheists in their lives? Apparently not.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-04-2011, 02:25 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajax View Post
If you study the history of tolerance, you will find that it was not invented by monotheist priests, that I can assure you.
Atheism is a product of the modern age. If you want to do apples to apples, compare religious people and atheists in the 20th century. Christian missionaries in South America, Africa and Asia might be repackaged as "imperialism," but it certainly isn't xenophobia is it?

Quote:
I think that is a lovely thing, but are they are also grateful for the atheists in their lives? Apparently not.
No, but they're praying for Christopher Hitchens even as he sneers at them. Is that close enough? Now, point out the opposite.
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-28-2011, 08:36 PM
sugarkang sugarkang is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cali, Small-Govt Liberal
Posts: 2,186
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple View Post
At least since Lucretius, and the many other skeptics of antiquity. Also, every person who has ever lived, was born an atheist. But since atheism is not an ideology, but rather a lack of something, one can't really say that atheism "has been around".
As the collective consciousness of a particular society, I mean. Yeah, Sweden looks great. Who doesn't love IKEA?
__________________
The mixing of populations lowers the cost of being unusual.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:37 PM
apple
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
As the collective consciousness of a particular society, I mean. Yeah, Sweden looks great. Who doesn't love IKEA?
Sweden isn't all that great. As a libertarian, you should know that. As for atheism being the collective consciousness of a particular society, I can't prove, but I'm sure that in pre-history, there have been mini-societies that did not have any idea of a "God". Surely, there was a time before the idea was invented. Also, Buddhism is non-theistic - it has no position on whether or not there is a god. So perhaps Buddhist societies were non-theistic, though I don't know enough to make a definite claim.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-30-2011, 12:03 AM
eeeeeeeli eeeeeeeli is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Palm Desert, CA
Posts: 811
Default Re: Values Added: Christians for Marriage Equality (Anna Taylor Sweringen & Peter Laarman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post
Atheists are assholes. I know this because I am one.
This is funny.
__________________
my blog
Reply With Quote
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.