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  #1  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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  #2  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:34 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

First of all, wow, great diavlog. I haven't watched the whole thing, yet, but how can you go wrong with these two? I had to break my rule of only watching DVs on the weekend.

Second of all, I endorse everything Pinkerton has said through the first 22 minutes.

Last week, Starwatcher asked for some concrete ideas for stemming the trend towards inequality. Pinkerton has many of the answers to that question.

Pinkerton is also correct to blame both the Democrats and the Republicans. When the American automobile industry was on the verge of extinction, I was stunned to discover that most of the "liberals" and "Democrats" I know were enthusiastically cheering on its demise. These are people who, from an environmental perspective, had learned to hate American industry and fetishize Japanese cars, and when the opportunity to destroy the industry presented itself, they could barely contain their excitement.

The one piece missing from Pinkerton's analysis is blame for the corporations themselves. (Well, I guess he did touch on it when he explained that Tyson has an interest in cheap labor at the expense of everyone else.) But let's be clear: It's the corporations themselves who sought "free trade" in the form of NAFTA and GATT as a means to increase their own profits and destroy unions at home. And it has worked beautifully. The rising inequality is the proof.

Here's how corporate America looks at Asia: there are 3 billion people living there, vs 310 million in the US. They are going to sell out America so they can exploit Asia. I wish I had a solution. We can end Republican tax incentives that encourage corporations to offshore our labor and undermine our wages, but ultimately you can't force multinational corporations to stay in or do business in the USA. It just may be that our glory days are over.

Kind of glad I had a chance to know America during its hey day, before conservative economic policies destroyed it.
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  #3  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:56 PM
Always Cynical Always Cynical is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:59 PM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
You sure do seem to know a lot about the inner lives of DV'ers, and all of it indicates that what they say can't be trusted. Huh.
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  #5  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:10 AM
Always Cynical Always Cynical is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
You sure do seem to know a lot about the inner lives of DV'ers, and all of it indicates that what they say can't be trusted. Huh.
Follow the money, the offshore tax havens, the parents, the private prep schools, the Ivy, and the think tanks. You'll find the similarities quite eerie - if not down right oligarchial - in nature.
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:26 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Follow the money, the offshore tax havens, the parents, the private prep schools, the Ivy, and the think tanks. You'll find the similarities quite eerie - if not down right oligarchial - in nature.
Show us the data!
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:41 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Show us the data!
He's absolutely right. What he said is about as empirically true as anything anyone has ever said in these forums.

(Note: Not necessarily about Glenn and Jim; I thought his observations about them was pretty crude; but the larger analysis is definitely correct.)
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:43 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
He's absolutely right. What he said is about as empirically true as anything anyone has ever said in these forums.

(Note: Not necessarily about Glenn and Jim; I thought his observations about them was pretty crude; but the larger analysis is definitely correct.)
Oh, I have no doubt about the general proposition. But it's a hell of a charge to level in specific without evidence.
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  #9  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:49 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Oh, I have no doubt about the general proposition. But it's a hell of a charge to level in specific without evidence.
I agree; fair enough. That's why I recommend the book; it's quite full of data. What's most remarkable and disturbing, perhaps, is how the wealthy are able to bend and twist our democratic institutions to overcome the popular will of the public. Jon Irenicus once started a thread asking people to explain what think tanks and policy institutions are for. If you don't know the answer to that question, you have no idea how politics in the United States operates, and on whose behalf. The short answer is that the policy planning network is a way for corporations and the wealthy to impose their will on the population and to co-opt popular public movements. One example: the Ford Foundation funded environmental groups that would satisfy the public desire for environmentalism but would do it on terms that were favorable and acceptable to corporations and the wealthy.
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  #10  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:11 PM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
(Note: Not necessarily about Glenn and Jim; I thought his observations about them was pretty crude; but the larger analysis is definitely correct.)
That's a hell of a caveat, given that the claim was about Glenn and Jim and has no relevance otherwise. He has an unpleasant habit in general of making personal claims about diavloggers in a blanket way.
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  #11  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:33 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by stephanie View Post
That's a hell of a caveat, given that the claim was about Glenn and Jim and has no relevance otherwise. He has an unpleasant habit in general of making personal claims about diavloggers in a blanket way.
Fair enough. What I meant to be agreeing with, and I was probably wrong to do so in the context of his attacks on the two diavloggers, is the broad and non-personal observation that there is an elite network found in "private prep schools, the Ivy [League], and the think tanks," etc. I might have been superimposing my own sociological analysis on top of AC's remarks and incorrectly assuming that's what he meant or was driving at. In any case, I certainly don't want to be associated with his attacks on Glenn and Jim.
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:35 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Fair enough. What I meant to be agreeing with, and I was probably wrong to do so in the context of his attacks on the two diavloggers, is the broad and non-personal observation that there is an elite network found in "private prep schools, the Ivy [League], and the think tanks," etc. I might have been superimposing my own sociological analysis on top of AC's remarks and incorrectly assuming that's what he meant or was driving at. In any case, I certainly don't want to be associated with his attacks on Glenn and Jim.
Fortunately, it appears that Jeff realized I was referring to the "general proposition" as opposed to the personal attacks. So hopefully I was not widely misunderstood to be agreeing with AC's attacks on Jim and Glenn.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:39 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Follow the money, the offshore tax havens, the parents, the private prep schools, the Ivy, and the think tanks. You'll find the similarities quite eerie - if not down right oligarchial - in nature.
Have you ever read Domhoff's Who Rules America?

If you haven't, you should.

Quote:
Drawing from a power elite perspective and the latest empirical data, Domhoff’s classic text is an invaluable tool for teaching students about how power operates in U.S. society. Domhoff argues that the owners and top-level managers in large income-producing properties are far and away the dominant figures in the U.S. Their corporations, banks, and agribusinesses come together as a corporate community that dominates the federal government in Washington and their real estate, construction, and land development companies form growth coalitions that dominate most local governments. By providing empirical evidence for his argument, Domhoff encourages students to think critically about the power structure in American society and its implications for our democracy.
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:54 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

Look, I largely agree with your broader point. American politics does usually consist of a privileged elite talking to itself about what it will do to the rest of us. But you always make this critique in personalized terms, as if BHTV could just rectify the problem by finding DV'ers with more plebian resumes. While I'm all for publicizing such DV'ers, criticizing Loury and Pinckerton this way is just silly. Pinckerton is probably the most anti-corporate, anti-Washington Consensus conservative on bhtv, and Loury is an extremely smart and thoughtful guy that is extremely invested in the problems of the non-elite in our country. What's more, they spent half of the DV discussing ways to revitalize the American middle class in ways that are verboten to most of the corrupt elite you're criticizing. So if this DV prompts you to supply personalized alarm bells about the careerist motivation underlying everything that is said, I wonder what kind of DV would actually satisfy your concerns.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:39 AM
Always Cynical Always Cynical is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
While I'm all for publicizing such, criticizing Loury and Pinckerton this way is just silly. Pinckerton is probably the most anti-corporate, anti-Washington Consensus conservative on bhtv,
Pinkerton's on his hands and knees whenever Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes snap their fingers. If you choose to ignore the facts of Pinkerton's blind obedience to the Fox czars, that's your problem and there's little one can type to convince you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
and Loury is an extremely smart and thoughtful guy that is extremely invested in the problems of the non-elite in our country.
And Loury's chief interest is getting to the head of the line when Tommy Sowell kicks. Sowell's successor will make a boatload of offshore bucks, just like Tommy - the Clarence Thomas of the Paleo and Neo right. Loury's no fool and he wants the dinero. Period.

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Originally Posted by Don Zeko View Post
What's more, they spent half of the DV discussing ways to revitalize the American middle class in ways that are verboten to most of the corrupt elite you're criticizing. So if this DV prompts you to supply personalized alarm bells about the careerist motivation underlying everything that is said, I wonder what kind of DV would actually satisfy your concerns.
Name a tangible, realistic, economically viable suggestion that either Pinkerton or Loury offered during this debate. Name one. Pinkerton and Loury want tax cuts and deregulation - and nothing more. Pinkerton mouths off about "Wall Street" but offers no specific policy plan to address the litany of ills on Wall Street and in the hedge fund world. None. Instead, Pinkerton plays to the Conservative and Neoconservative base with general prattle and catchphrases straight from Frankie Luntz. Loury, meanwhile, seemed baffled by the idea of a "fixed pension system" and simply fell apart in the final segment of the debate.

Earlier, Loury had offered a rather sharp critique of Dinesh D'Souza, but that had more to do with the fact that D'Souza used his usual weak scholarship, deep polemic, and backstabbing ways to beat out Loury a few years back for a bunch of high-paying gigs when they were competitors at the same think tank. Loury lost money to D'Souza then so Loury rips D'Souza now. That D'Souza operates in blind sophistry and blatant butt kissing and that he'd kill your mother or his own for his Conservative bosses has long been a well-known fact of life in the think tank world. That Loury blasts D'Souza now, while quite accurate in the wake of the Forbes' piece and quite pleasant when one sees such an offensive mounted by Christopher Hitchens, has everything to do with the fact that D'Souza beat him to the big money before and Loury has been aching for years to even that score.
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2010, 02:54 AM
Don Zeko Don Zeko is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

OK, then you tell me this. Can you name anyone that's been on the front page of BHTV that you don't think has questionable motives or qualifications along these lines? If so, who? How often has this person/these people been on?
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:07 AM
jacksonian jacksonian is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

What would it even mean to be the "Clarence Thomas of the Paleo and Neo right"? Isn't Clarence Thomas himself already on the right? And regardless of what you think of him, he's a judge, not an academic or public intellectual who churns out books. So...other than all these people being black and having political views you disapprove of, what's the connection between any of these people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Pinkerton's on his hands and knees whenever Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes snap their fingers. If you choose to ignore the facts of Pinkerton's blind obedience to the Fox czars, that's your problem and there's little one can type to convince you otherwise.



And Loury's chief interest is getting to the head of the line when Tommy Sowell kicks. Sowell's successor will make a boatload of offshore bucks, just like Tommy - the Clarence Thomas of the Paleo and Neo right. Loury's no fool and he wants the dinero. Period.



Name a tangible, realistic, economically viable suggestion that either Pinkerton or Loury offered during this debate. Name one. Pinkerton and Loury want tax cuts and deregulation - and nothing more. Pinkerton mouths off about "Wall Street" but offers no specific policy plan to address the litany of ills on Wall Street and in the hedge fund world. None. Instead, Pinkerton plays to the Conservative and Neoconservative base with general prattle and catchphrases straight from Frankie Luntz. Loury, meanwhile, seemed baffled by the idea of a "fixed pension system" and simply fell apart in the final segment of the debate.

Earlier, Loury had offered a rather sharp critique of Dinesh D'Souza, but that had more to do with the fact that D'Souza used his usual weak scholarship, deep polemic, and backstabbing ways to beat out Loury a few years back for a bunch of high-paying gigs when they were competitors at the same think tank. Loury lost money to D'Souza then so Loury rips D'Souza now. That D'Souza operates in blind sophistry and blatant butt kissing and that he'd kill your mother or his own for his Conservative bosses has long been a well-known fact of life in the think tank world. That Loury blasts D'Souza now, while quite accurate in the wake of the Forbes' piece and quite pleasant when one sees such an offensive mounted by Christopher Hitchens, has everything to do with the fact that D'Souza beat him to the big money before and Loury has been aching for years to even that score.
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:37 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
Howdy AC,
I disagree with your characterization of Loury. He drove me nuts during 2008 with his analysis of Obama, but I don't respect him because he agrees with me. I just think he's cool, and really, really smart. I love listening to him.

As for Pinkerton, yes, he's as conservative as they come on virtually all topics, and I disagree with just about everything he says, but despite this I've always liked him and enjoyed listening to him. But that's me; I tend to listen to a lot of conservative voices.

I was actually quite surprised to hear the incredibly sane things he had to say about the US economy in tonight's DV. As far as I'm concerned, he's indistinguishable from the very best kind of Democrat in the kinds of things he was (apparently) proposing tonight. I think Obama is more of a corporate-friendly pseudo-Republican than Pinkerton is. (Though Obama is obviously far superior in every other respect.)
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:12 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

I've always enjoyed the Pinkerton like the one from this DV. But he does have his crazy, FoxNews GOP talking point side as well. Best as I can tell, if you keep him away from social issues he's pretty reasonable (and interesting and fun.) But get him going on Muslims, America-as-a-Christian-Nation etc., that's when he goes off the rails. Usually he's pretty disconnected from reality when it comes to discussions about Obama, but this time he was okay.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:19 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
I've always enjoyed the Pinkerton like the one from this DV. But he does have his crazy, FoxNews GOP talking point side as well. Best as I can tell, if you keep him away from social issues he's pretty reasonable (and interesting and fun.) But get him going on Muslims, America-as-a-Christian-Nation etc., that's when he goes off the rails. Usually he's pretty disconnected from reality when it comes to discussions about Obama, but this time he was okay.
I like Jim even though he really has a much different perspective on conservatism than I do. He's much more of a Huckabee/GW Bush conservative. I'm more of a Mitch Daniels/Jeff Flake conservative.

Nevertheless, I find AC's attack on Jim and others to be a bit bizarre...
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  #21  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:04 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Nevertheless, I find AC's attack on Jim and others to be a bit bizarre...
Agreed.
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:29 PM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
I've always enjoyed the Pinkerton like the one from this DV. But he does have his crazy, FoxNews GOP talking point side as well. Best as I can tell, if you keep him away from social issues he's pretty reasonable (and interesting and fun.) But get him going on Muslims, America-as-a-Christian-Nation etc., that's when he goes off the rails. Usually he's pretty disconnected from reality when it comes to discussions about Obama, but this time he was okay.
Well said.
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:06 AM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.
I'm pretty sure Sowell won't be coauthoring papers with Sam Bowles and Rajiv Sethi any time soon.
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2010, 03:27 AM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.
Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
Name some names, you shameless gossip.
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:25 PM
look look is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Name some names, you shameless gossip.
I'm waiting, Big Al.
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:37 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
Are you their psychiatrist?
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  #27  
Old 09-21-2010, 05:23 PM
JonIrenicus JonIrenicus is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
You trolling?
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  #28  
Old 09-26-2010, 12:58 PM
SeldomSeen SeldomSeen is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

Obviously you don't know Loury, your cynicism blinds you. Glenn is SOOO far away from Sowell that it's laughable to compare?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Cynical View Post
Just remember who these two gents are.

Glenn Loury is vowing to replace Tommy Sowell when Sowell kicks. There's money in that gig, but Loury faces heavy competition from a variety of young Clarence Thomas-like wannabes.

Jimmy Pinkerton, pinched, nasal tone or not, seethes over Glenn Beck's wealth and wants Murdoch and Ailes to grant him either a syndicated talk radio show or Fox News gig for a couple of hours five days a week.
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  #29  
Old 09-26-2010, 03:25 PM
operative operative is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

Actually a Glenn/Sowell diavlogue would be a real treat.
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  #30  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:15 AM
BornAgainDemocrat BornAgainDemocrat is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post

Here's how corporate America looks at Asia: there are 3 billion people living there, vs 310 million in the US. They are going to sell out America so they can exploit Asia. I wish I had a solution.
Maybe the solution is China itself. When American businessmen finally start realize what an economic Goliath China will be (Japan x 15) and what a miniscule, inconsequential bit role they will have to play, they'll start to see the light. I hope so.
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  #31  
Old 09-23-2010, 09:18 AM
badhatharry badhatharry is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Kind of glad I had a chance to know America during its hey day, before conservative economic policies destroyed it.
Oh brother!
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  #32  
Old 09-23-2010, 09:20 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Oh brother!
:-)

A little hyperbolic, I'll grant. ;-)
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  #33  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:44 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

I don't know if that title is supposed to be ironic, straight, or comical, but it makes no sense whatsoever.

I have two points: on what Pinkerton said about progressivism, having just finished reading C. Vann Woodward's The Origins of the New South, 1877-1913, this much comes immediately to mind. Theodore Roosevelt's progressivism during his two terms and especially his third-party run was lily-white. And, the Republicans and Democrats he sought to attract in the South were racist, fully willing to corporations, but not to include Negroes (sic). Why doesn't Pinkerton just admit he's making a racist argument?

And, American industrial policy was rarely ever Hamiltonian. Did he forget Jefferson, and how southern interests fought internal improvements until the Civil War? Has he looked at the career of John C. Calhoun, who regressed from nationalist and pro-improvement to sectional and anti-Federalist?

Too much Jim, not enough Glenn Loury!
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  #34  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:02 AM
TwinSwords TwinSwords is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I don't know if that title is supposed to be ironic, straight, or comical, but it makes no sense whatsoever.
Well, it's just what Jim said, half-joking, to describe himself at the very beginning, when Glenn observed the contradiction between Jim's professed libertarianism and his desire for a big government industrial policy and other policies to protect the interests of the American population against the ravages and depredations of the elite.

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
Why doesn't Pinkerton just admit he's making a racist argument?
Would you mind elaborating on this? What part of Pinkerton's argument was racist?

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
And, American industrial policy was rarely ever Hamiltonian. Did he forget Jefferson, and how southern interests fought internal improvements until the Civil War? Has he looked at the career of John C. Calhoun, who regressed from nationalist and pro-improvement to sectional and anti-Federalist?
Good points. And his tribe continues to fight them to this day.

I happen to think he's right, though, that it would be a wise use of our national wealth to invest in national infrastructure. Ten years ago we could have done this by wiring the nation with fiber optics and high speed networks. But building a hundred nuke plants is a great idea, too.

Part of what the libertarians fail to grasp is that American industry could not compete in a free market. The agriculture and aviation industries are classic examples: both are so heavily subsidized in Europe that if the US government didn't dramatically intervene in the markets in the US, both industries would flounder, or vanish. Unfortunately, a child's view of economics, a view so simple it can be spelled out on a 3x5 card, is no substitute for understanding the complexities of 21st century economy.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:05 AM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
What part of Pinkerton's argument was racist?
Aside from Woodward's insight into the northern Progressive alliance with southern "Progressives" in the period Pinkerton alludes to, Pinkerton as much as says he wants to limit Hispanic immigration, and never mentions African-Americans. I would argue immigration is now a dog whistle for racism. And, maybe if my South Korean students didn't believe that households in the American South own guns to kill Asian tourists, some of those East Asian wunderkind would come to learn English and stay to work. I teach these kids English, because they want to study and imitate Hollywood culture. But, they all tell me repeatedly how most Americans are technologically and culturally retarded and racist. Restricting immigration would inflate the economy at least as much as kow-towing to the unions he despises. I would rather espouse a multi-cultural progressivism, that includes democratic institutions for all individuals, if we have to pay extra for groceries. I'd rather someone know, that he/she had a voice in deciding to manufacture a given product, rather than accept that he/she can make it but not buy it. And then, there's the demographic time bomb, if younger immigrants don't replace an older population.

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Originally Posted by TwinSwords View Post
I happen to think he's right, though, that it would be a wise use of our national wealth to invest in national infrastructure. Ten years ago we could have done this by wiring the nation with fiber optics and high speed networks. But building a hundred nuke plants is a great idea, too.

Part of what the libertarians fail to grasp is that American industry could not compete in a free market. The agriculture and aviation industries are classic examples: both are so heavily subsidized in Europe that if the US government didn't dramatically intervene in the markets in the US, both industries would flounder, or vanish. Unfortunately, a child's view of economics, a view so simple it can be spelled out on a 3x5 card, is no substitute for understanding the complexities of 21st century economy.
I'm beginning to think actually, that a technocratic fix like what you advocate is not half bad. But, as I said above, the only way to fix the excesses of interest group pluralism - the lop-sided "intervention" is the result - is to build democratic institutions beyond the constitutional skeleton the US has. perhaps, the favored few now might not get their piece of the pie they enjoy now if more groups got a bigger slice. But, at least everyone would have a stake in the system, and get a reward equal to their contribution.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:35 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I teach these kids English, because they want to study and imitate Hollywood culture. But, they all tell me repeatedly how most Americans are technologically and culturally retarded and racist.
wow, you are clearly making quite an impression.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:14 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

I believe you've said before you had visited, or taught, in South Korea. In the past, South Korean media reports of violence against South Koreans in the US, reports of under-employed laudromat and convenience store owners, and racism on college campuses have given all manner of trouble to explain. That I'm married to a South Korean and speak Korean cuts me some slack with students. But, generally - and would you agree? - most students tell me Americans are lazy, indebted, and dependent on others to make the things they need to live. Even my wife has refused for years to contemplate taking out any loan for a home, or for anything, because South Koreans simply for the most part do not take loans.

So, if Pinkerton wants to cut off America from the rest of the world, I think my students would say, that there won't be much left of America.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:22 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
I believe you've said before you had visited, or taught, in South Korea. In the past, South Korean media reports of violence against South Koreans in the US, reports of under-employed laudromat and convenience store owners, and racism on college campuses have given all manner of trouble to explain. That I'm married to a South Korean and speak Korean cuts me some slack with students. But, generally - and would you agree? - most students tell me Americans are lazy, indebted, and dependent on others to make the things they need to live. Even my wife has refused for years to contemplate taking out any loan for a home, or for anything, because South Koreans simply for the most part do not take loans.

So, if Pinkerton wants to cut off America from the rest of the world, I think my students would say, that there won't be much left of America.
i lived there as a Korean language student, not a teacher. like many non-americans, my korean friends are prone to making idiotic generalizations about all things "american," while simultaneously embracing a lot of elements of american culture. but i didn't find it particularly grating or surprising; one hears similar sentiments in germany, canada and . . . portland freaking oregon.

and, yes, speaking korean helps. and i share the resentment of koreans towards english teachers who live 5, 10 years in the country, and don't bother to learn anything past anyoung haseyo. they are not doing america (or new zealand, or canada) proud with that imperialistic, arrogant attitude. i think it's a function a lot of them ending up in korea without any interest in korea, per se: they're just there for the job.
i went to seoul with the express purpose of learning korean: i was a koreaphile from way back, so was in a very different position.

Last edited by nikkibong; 09-21-2010 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Baltimoron Baltimoron is offline
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

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i lived there as a Korean language student, not a teacher. like many non-americans, my korean friends are prone to making idiotic generalizations about all things "american," while simultaneously embracing a lot of elements of american culture. but i didn't find it particularly grating or surprising; one hears similar sentiments in germany, canada and . . . portland freaking oregon.
My wife and I have this running argument based on It's a Wonderful Life, housing loans, and Mr. Potter. I've always characterized Mr. Potter as South Korean banks and the corporations that run the apartment complexes. I still find Bailey and his Housing & Loan company an ideal solution.

I also very early on in my stay here found a lot of what South Koreans, like my wife, said very similar to what my grandparents, who survived the Great Depression, used to say about thrift and personal habits.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:24 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Big Government Libertarianism (Glenn Loury & Jim Pinkerton)

Jim's characterization of progressive's only caring about polar bears and gay marriages not the shrinking middle class was a funny throwout line but also off base. I think they would like to do something about the problem of disappearing decent wage manufacturing jobs but like most others including myself are clueless on how to go about it. This trend has been taking place for 35 years and all it gets is a little lip service now and then. Currently, more is being said since it appears we are looking at high unemployment for the foreseeable future and all the recent Stimulus bills have been anything but stimulating when it comes to non government middle class employment opportunities.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 09-21-2010 at 03:39 PM..
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