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  #41  
Old 12-04-2011, 07:53 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticDoc View Post
How many?

Would you mind sharing with us your blood pressure and cholesterol?

Are you taking any medications?

Are you one of the individuals that are healthy because of a healthy diet and lifestyle in spite of a sub-optimal family history, or are you healthy because you grew up in a healthy environment and you were lucky to get good genes?
Not sure how that connects with my comment. I didn't make any reference to my own health (which is fine, for the record).

Lots of people don't used canned or processed food. And, yes, I don't. I do add salt when cooking, and I don't think that's bad for my health. It ends up being a quite moderate amount and does often make a real difference in taste. I think the idea that one must abandon concerns about taste or somehow make health choices assuming that one eats lots of processed food are both wrong (and I don't care for processed foods -- I think cooking from whole foods is better from a taste perspective, by far).

Now, why people don't is a question, and I think it's not simple preference in many cases, nor am I claiming some kind of moral superiority, which would be stupid about this subject. I think lots of people these days don't really ever learn how to cook or how to do so without it taking a lot more time than they have is a huge barrier within some social or cultural groups. This was my issue in my 20s, and one I had to learn how to deal with, and thus one I think it's quite possible to learn how to deal with if one wants to. For others, there may be a barrier obtaining good and reasonably priced starting ingrediants (the food desert). However, if you have a regular supermarket, working with whole foods is almost certainly cheaper than going to processed and premade.

But to just say something like "oh, I'm sure you use processed food and prepackaged foods, canned soup and so on, so don't add salt ever" is to ignore that people's eating and cooking habits vary a lot and often vary between different cultural groups a lot.

And from a societal perspective, I think assuming people are going to keep the amount of canned soup they eat (or whatever) consistent and lecturing them about added salt is unlikely to help much. Transition just a little to less sodium packed ways of eating and you make more difference relatively easily.

Last edited by stephanie; 12-04-2011 at 07:57 AM..
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2011, 11:25 AM
SkepticDoc SkepticDoc is offline
 
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Posts: 1,168
Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

I wish we could have a diavlog with Michael Pollan, he covers many of these topics in a fantastic manner, objective, coherent, interesting and also entertaining. At the end it makes you think, a lot!

Lifestyle and diet are intertwined with everything our Society and Government:

Why do we allow the sale of tobacco products?

Some of our dependence in oil relates to the "Corn Industry" and the distribution of the industrialized food products, why don't we encourage "locavorism" and subsidize local farmers instead of "Big Corporations"?

If we encouraged grass fed cattle and banned the use of antibiotics in our food sources, could we control the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria?

Talking about canned foods and statins:

Quote:
Not So Mmm Mmm Good? Canned Soup and BPA

Patients may ask about a study suggesting that eating canned soup leads to spikes in urinary excretion of bisphenol A (BPA), a chemical found in the linings of many canned goods. The small randomized crossover trial was reported in a research letter in JAMA.

Some 75 adults ate 12 ounces of either fresh or canned soup for 5 days, and then crossed over to the other soup for another 5 days. Urine samples, collected on days 4 and 5 of each phase, were positive for BPA in 77% of participants after eating fresh soup and in 100% after eating canned soup. Average urinary BPA concentration was roughly 23 μg/L higher after consuming canned versus fresh soup.

The authors note that elevated urinary BPA concentrations have previously been linked to cardiovascular disease and diabetes, and conclude that the increase observed here "may be important."

Statin Shows Long-Term Continuing Benefits, No Increased Cancer Risk

Long-term use of simvastatin is associated with continuing protection against major cardiovascular events and is not associated with an increased cancer risk, according to a Lancet study.

Heart Protection Study researchers examined 11-year follow-up data on some 20,000 high-risk patients randomized to simvastatin or placebo for 5 years. The risk reduction found with statin use continued to the 11th year of follow-up, after treatment had stopped for 6 years. There was no added risk for death from cancer or other nonvascular causes, even among older patients.

Commentators write that concerns over increased risks for cancer and nonvascular mortality "should be put to rest and doctors should feel reassured" about statins' long-term safety.
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2011, 11:09 PM
SkepticDoc SkepticDoc is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event=c.beginBrowseD#611

A Power Point presentation on the Mediterranean diet.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2011, 09:37 PM
hilbert90 hilbert90 is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

I hesitate to ask, but why do you consider Paleo or low carb a "fad diet" but not the Mediterranean diet? That just seems silly.

Just for good balance: http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-...3138935&sr=8-1

A link to buy Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes.
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:57 PM
SkepticDoc SkepticDoc is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

That is a very good question, some genomes may be better suited for different diets. I don't doubt some "natural selection" in the Eskimos that allowed them to thrive on raw meat, blubber and frozen fish, those that were harmed just did not survive and passed on fewer genes.

My prejudiced judgment is that most of the population that originated from the Mediterranean and the Euphrates valley did better on the "Mediterranean Diet", not only did they survive, they flourished and gave us Poetry, Math, Science and Religion :0!

Bushmen from Africa, Huns, Vikings and Neanderthals had different diets in their evolutionary process, they may not thrive with mostly fruits and grains. They did not contribute much either to our culture.

Maybe we need to do a genome exam to determine which diet is best for any individual.

My question to you is, what group has ever thrived with processed food with refined sugars, fat and excessive salt?

If you want the "paleo" diet, go and hunt your prey...
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  #46  
Old 12-06-2011, 10:54 AM
stephanie stephanie is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

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Originally Posted by SkepticDoc View Post
My question to you is, what group has ever thrived with processed food with refined sugars, fat and excessive salt?
I always think that these arguments over named diets overemphasize the differences and ignore the fundamental similarities. I watched Taube debate Ornish and some others, and much as they disliked each other's advice, they agreed on major points that if followed would improve the diet followed by most Americans: try to avoid processed foods, refined sugars, and empty or refined carbs. Eat vegetables in high quantities.

Maybe I'm exaggerating the agreement, but it seemed to me that beyond this basic advice, a lot of the rest is about other issues -- preferences, how much meat is a good idea for reasons that go well beyond health, etc.
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  #47  
Old 12-06-2011, 02:45 PM
popcorn_karate popcorn_karate is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkepticDoc View Post
My prejudiced judgment is that most of the population that originated from the Mediterranean and the Euphrates valley did better on the "Mediterranean Diet", not only did they survive, they flourished and gave us Poetry, Math, Science and Religion :0!

Bushmen from Africa, Huns, Vikings and Neanderthals had different diets in their evolutionary process, they may not thrive with mostly fruits and grains. They did not contribute much either to our culture.
just so long as you realize this is your prejudice and ignorance talking, sure, say whatever meaningless semi-racist bullshit you feel like.
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civil disobedience a problem? NO! Our problem is that people are OBEDIENT all over the world, in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war and cruelty. -HZ
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  #48  
Old 12-06-2011, 07:35 PM
SkepticDoc SkepticDoc is offline
 
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Default Re: Positive Cardiovascular Health (Robert Wright & Darwin Labarthe)

I did not mean to offend any Neanderthals...

Other groups have flourished with a low meat diet, Hindus and Orientals for example. Their culture had very late influence in our "Western Society".

The point that you are missing is that there is an efficiency factor for producing food, the cultivation of grains allows some members of the tribe to engage in mental activities. Hunters risk their lives in their pursuit of a meal and have to keep on the search, not much time for rest or contemplation. Higher primates spend an inordinate amount of time chewing tree branches and bark to extract some nutrients and they must forage for fruits when they are available.

It seems to me that an animal has to be an omnivore to develop some intelligence.
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