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  #121  
Old 09-02-2008, 08:35 AM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Scientific creationism (after all, the Bible doesn't have anything directly to say to the concepts of modern science or evolution) isn't any different from teaching Scientology in your high school biology class. Open up that door at your own peril.

Creationism isn't about science anyway, it's a way of filling in the gaps between scientific principles. It's like Marxism, attempting to synthesize various academic disciplines into a larger message about How Our World Works. In that way, it really belongs in a philosophy class.
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  #122  
Old 09-02-2008, 08:59 AM
Xelgaex Xelgaex is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Glenn predicts the phenomenon, and it happens in the very next diavlog. Matt Lewis even takes it up a notch and argues that she's more qualified. You can almost see him thinking, "A-hah! You took the pawn!"
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  #123  
Old 09-02-2008, 09:30 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelgaex View Post
Glenn predicts the phenomenon, and it happens in the very next diavlog. Matt Lewis even takes it up a notch and argues that she's more qualified. You can almost see him thinking, "A-hah! You took the pawn!"
I think Glenn was about as wrong about this particular worry as he's been about anything that I've ever heard him say. The number one objection to Obama (apart from the fringe stuff sent by anonymous email) is the experience question. It wasn't going to go away based on McCain's choice of running mate. What happened with Palin is that McCain took away the strength of that issue. He basically burned an ace to win a deuce.

I'll grant that the Dems should not keep harping on Palin's lack of experience. They don't need to, and I hope they'll be smart enough to realize this. I think, in general, after everyone gets their ya-yas out over the next few days, the thing to do is to go back to emphasizing Obama's plans and all of the horror of McSame.

Certainly, the Obama campaign is already on this, and I expect the more or less official surrogates will get the message soon, too. Right now, it's mostly the MSM having found a new shiny object to obsess over (now that not even they can take the PUMA sham seriously any more), the rightosphere momentarily ecstatic that it's not Romney or Lieberman, and the leftosphere indulging in a little payback for the past eighteen months of Republican smears.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 09-02-2008 at 09:35 AM..
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  #124  
Old 09-02-2008, 10:45 AM
Larry Bird Larry Bird is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Maybe Josh could get a sponsor for the top of his head like Pepsi or Microsoft since we have to stare at it for 90% of the conversation. At least draw a smiley face up there or something.
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  #125  
Old 09-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Bloggin' Noggin Bloggin' Noggin is offline
 
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Default Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on

Quote:
The first step, though, is getting him there, and he'd have a lot tougher time of it if he beat people over the head with historical complaints, as fully justified as they are. 99.999% of people who would respond positively to those messages are already going to vote for him. Too many of those messages, in a nomination acceptance speech, just wouldn't be politically smart.
I can't help but feel that Glenn is demanding that a black president play two largely conflicting roles that he wouldn't demand of a non-black president. You can be president on the one hand or you can be a social critic/historian of racial wrongs on the other, but you pretty much can't be both at once. Obama doesn't have to be all things at once any more than Hillary Clinton had to be a combination of Bill Clinton and Susan Faludi or Katha Pollitt.
Let Obama be Obama (i.e., someone attempting to assemble a more-or-less progressive coalition in order to achieve some things that will benefit black people and poor whites and let Glenn Loury be Glenn Loury. Loury can hold Obama's feet to the fire (once elected) on those practical achievements. And he can add, in his own voice, some notes about domestic terrorism etc., but it doesn't really make much sense to blame Obama for preferring the possibility of future achievements over the chance to wrangle over a divisive an unchangeable past.

Last edited by Bloggin' Noggin; 09-02-2008 at 11:07 AM..
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  #126  
Old 09-02-2008, 10:56 AM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
That's right! I'm not an expert, but I would add that he certainly inspired many.

With Jimi revolutionizing the use of the electric guitar, and Dylan infusing meaning and style, the rest was the logical derivative. Good old times!

Being the youngest, and only girl, in an extended family with an older brother and three older cousins, I was exposed to this music from early on. That explains it, doesn't it?
Yes, good ole' times were to be had. Oh, I have a Jimi Hendrix "Best Of" CD -all his gems are on there.

John

Last edited by bkjazfan; 09-02-2008 at 12:46 PM..
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  #127  
Old 09-02-2008, 11:17 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
There are many aspects to look at when we discuss whether a certain region is representative or not of the whole. You mention some aspects that are shared, not only with the U.S., but I would say, with the rest of the world. Would you say that people in Idaho are representative of the rest of the world, in most aspects?

I think you are perfectly aware of regional differences. Your comment is either driven by your loyalty to the people you share half of your time with, or by other reasons that escape my understanding.

As I said before, Idaho is a beautiful state, and I have no reason to believe there's anything wrong with the people living there. I just think it would be hard to believe that the "culture" in Idaho is the same as, say, the culture in New York City. I lived in Seattle for two years, after living in New York for fifteen. When I returned to the East Coast, I had to re-acculturate. I had forgotten how rude people are here, and yet, how very interesting...
I wasn't saying against regional differences. I was responding to the pasted quote that ID (and AK) were not representative of the rest of the US. This takes it (for anyone with the ability to read) way beyond regional differences. If the statement would have said ID and AK were not representative of the cultures of New York City and Seattle, I would have had no problem. Instead it was presented that the two states were alien to everywhere else in the country and that is just foolish.

You also added this gem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Has she been exposed to America?
You not only infer that ID and AK not representative to the US, you declare them unamerican.

I hope you realize that if someone said the same thing about Seattle or NYC it would sound equally as foolish.

And believe me, I love the fact that ID is not Seattle or New York City (or Los Angeles). People are the same everywhere and I love many aspects of the big city, but it's nice to go to the farm and the neighborhood of ranchers and farmers.
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  #128  
Old 09-02-2008, 11:37 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graz View Post
Fwiw: I always conveniently compartmentalized you as an opponent. Which was probably as a result of your rabid defense of Mickey and Ann, coupled with your reflexive lefty bashing. Lately, your personalized posts have fleshed out a whole person that I think I understand better. Your comments about tats and where and how you live make you more sympathetic to me.
Not that you should care.
Anyhow, with all due respect to Idahoans, Alaskans and other locales that exemplify the limited range of experience that Sarah Palin has lived (according to the known record). People are people, sure. But at a minimum, the job requirements include an indication of an ability to adapt to an ever increasing set of complex issues. While she might be able to improvise, it seems fair to say that her skills have not been put to a great test. I think that provincialism is a fair criticism that should be addressed.

I think that there is litmus or means test for minimum qualification. Not the simple constitutional requirements. To those that argue that Obama is of equal measure, while I disagree, I argue that the primary proccess was the additional burden that he had to pass. The electorate has spoken.
Sarah Palin won't have such a test. Her shortcut to the top disallows any true test. We are clearly living in interesting times.
Regarding my 'reflexive lefty bashing'. I would ask you to make the same effort you did with the postings on my personal experiences and you might even see that I'm usually reacting to 'reflexive righty bashing'.

As to my 'rabid' defense of Mickey and Ann, once again, take a closer look. I don't always agree with what they say. I feel both persons could do a lot better job at being prepared for their conversations; what I'm usually doing when I reference them is defending their right to be here. That you can call that akin to hydrophobia while other posters are begging for their banishment (I hope you'll forgive me) is typical of the mindset here that I'm usually disagreeing with.

If you really do feel that I get out of hand (rabid is a pretty strong word), feel free to post the most rabid thing I've posted here. I'd be interested to see the inner Hyde that I'm unaware of.

As to S Palin and her perceived lack of vetting: I actually agree. McCain will either be celebrated for her performance in the next two months or he will forever be remembered as the guy who made the worst choice ever.

But I completely disagree with your assessment that people from small towns or rural areas aren't required to deal with complex issues. I thought the same way myself when I first moved from the big city and I was completely wrong. I find that people from the country are often some of the most astute judges of character around, and that means alot in a chief executive (or a vice one). I agree that Obama and his organizers ability to stack the caucus system was a brilliant stroke, but I really don't see how that translates to real qualities of a president, especially when his stated goal is to bring people together and the democrats are as fractured right now as any post-convention since Ford/Reagan. It will be even harder when it's everyone and not just liberals.
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  #129  
Old 09-02-2008, 11:42 AM
wovenstrap wovenstrap is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelgaex View Post
That slightly mystifies me as well. If experience was really important to voters (at least in the Democratic primary) wouldn't we have Joe Biden as the Pres. nominee instead of VP?
You're putting words in my mouth. I made no claim about the importance of experience to voters. I was merely explaining that Obama's resume was stronger than Hillary thought (a decade of electoral experience so often derided as "nothing") and that Hillary's 1992-2000 experience, in which she cast no votes, appointed no administration members, commenced no legislation, etc., was a poor fundament for a campaign based on "experience." Seeing that, the voters narrowly chose one somewhat experienced candidate with a lot of strengths over another somewhat experienced candidate with a lot of strengths.

As a contrast, if Hillary had somehow been able to ignore the word "experience" and focus on "capability," her claims to superiority would have been harder to refute. Obama was running on his own name years before Hillary ever had, not a trivial fact when you have Glenn expressing outrage over the Democrats casting aside someone so tested in favor of someone so untested. That's just not what happened.
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  #130  
Old 09-02-2008, 11:48 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

You were making sense until you got to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
... the democrats are as fractured right now as any post-convention since Ford/Reagan.
Seen this, for example? (And keep in mind the poll was Mon - Wed of convention week; i.e., before most people had heard the Clintons' speeches and before anybody had heard Obama's speech.)

That PUMA sham is so played even the MSM can't be bothered to hype it any longer. Bear in mind, also, that the number of self-identified Democrats is way up this year (and self-identified Reps down), so even if Obama is polling among Dems at a percentage point or two below where Kerry was, the increased absolute numbers more than make up for it.

If you want to talk fractures, though, one thing to watch is the Ron Paul "counterconvention" in the same town as the RNC. I've seen some reports saying he's drawing a bigger crowd than they are.
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 09-02-2008 at 11:57 AM..
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  #131  
Old 09-02-2008, 12:06 PM
Markos Markos is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

This comment is so far down the list I suppose it won't be read, BUT...

I think the issue of the U.S. torturing prisoners in Gitmo - ( while it is an important issue morally and in terms of our image abroad ) - is NOT an issue that will move decisive votes in this election.
At the 2004 Repub convention, speakers one after another beat up Kerry on the " voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it" line. They also did that throughout the campaign. And THAT was a line that did, I believe, move votes away from Kerry. And the sorry thing was that Kerry would have had a perfect rebuttal for that if he'd had the sense to use it, which was that Kerry voted for PAYING-as-we-go with our tax money and voted against Bush's putting the Iraq war on a credit card.
But that was a gut issue for Americans because it was about equipping AMERICAN troops.
The problem with the issue of torture politically is that I believe the U.S. electorate is much more fuzzy about the question of torturing people who might be foreign terrorists.
So - while it would have been morally significant to raise the issue of torture in this campaign and at the Dem convention - in terms of getting elected, I think it probably is not so useful.
And since getting elected decides who will actually set policy, I think the Dems failure at their convention was not devoting enough time to attacking McCain on issues that move voters.
Like for example clarifying the fact that the female Hillary supporter who did the ad for McCain did not know McCain's position on abortion and the Supreme Court. I do believe the Supreme Court issue is one of numerous issues that CAN move votes.
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  #132  
Old 09-02-2008, 12:46 PM
miceelf miceelf is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Glenn is officially getting very tiresome on the subject of Obama. For God's sake, man, Hillary Clinton has gotten over it, why can't you?
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  #133  
Old 09-02-2008, 12:46 PM
johnshaplin johnshaplin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
How would Palin challenge the status quo?
Do you see her as a strong leader?

What about having a clear vision about this country in relationship to the rest of the international community?
My notion is that the so-called "experience factor" is way over-rated. After all, the experience of the last thirty years has produced the disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan, a persistent inability to resolve the issue of Palestine and now something that verges on the renewal of a cold war with Russia.

A fresh perspective might prove useful. Someone who has no experience but is earnest, bright and out of the claws of special interests - reading all the old State Department 'white papers"-might percieve a way to resolve some of these problems whereas the 'old boys' just see the usual constraints and political pitfalls. One would hope that Sarah Palin, though immersed in the Washington racket, will maintain a perspective on the real interests of ordinary families, one that ignores grand political ambition, at least for a time.
At least she would be sensitive to alot of the corruption that drives the situation today.

Just a notion. An attempt to think out of the box.
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  #134  
Old 09-02-2008, 12:48 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Is this word "vetting" one of these new pol words that William Safire talks so much about? Until this election cycle I have not heard it before.

John
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  #135  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:24 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Just to pile on. I agree. I have no issue with students being taught about the "controversy" in school (in fact I think it would be helpfull for more of the population to be informed) AS LONG AS it is made clear that it is a cultural controversy and not a scientific one. The controversy is that religious fanatics want their faux-scientific theory to be taught in a science class. And the same organizations that tend to push for this, also usually push for school-prayer, keeping "under god" in the pledge, and commandments on courthouses etc. IE- their main objectives are religious, not scientific. It is a cultural/social movement that has no grounding in empirical science. This would be a great lesson for students but it would be better kept outside of a science classroom (which would help emphaisize the main point.)

I also agree, that it would be very unlikely that the Creationism crowd would endorse the teaching of THIS controversy.
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  #136  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:29 PM
January January is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Yep, in nominating Palin, McCain takes his best argument against Obama off the table. McCain's not stupid, so I assume that he thinks his pick will help keep the election on the terrain of clashing identities rather than clashing ideas. The Palin pick rallies the red-staters and baits the Democrats to act like latte-sipping elitists who'd never go near a trailer-park (where out-of-wedlock births are more prevalent than pit-bulls). I doubt Obama will take the bait, but Biden will have to work hard to trip her up while not appearing to be the smartest guy in the room.
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  #137  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:30 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Band of Gypsies- Machine Gun= best live guitar solo ever!

Jimi was also a vastly underrated songwriter.
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  #138  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:41 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkjazfan View Post
Is this word "vetting" one of these new pol words that William Safire talks so much about? Until this election cycle I have not heard it before.

John
No, it's been around for a while. For example, CNN quotes a 1992 Newsweek article, in part saying:

Quote:
... a private life thoroughly vetted by the press in 1988 ...
The Mavens at Random House said in 1998:

Quote:
In the sense everyone is asking about, vet means 'to appraise, verify, or check for accuracy, authenticity, etc.'. Some examples from a wide range of mainstream publications over the last twenty years:

[...]

The verb vet is first recorded in the 1890s in the sense 'to examine or treat in one's capacity as a veterinarian', e.g. "the horse was vetted before the race." Around the same time it was used in a slightly more jocular sense 'to examine (a human) in one's capacity as a doctor', and the noun vet 'a doctor' was in use in WWI.

Our sense of vet, 'to evaluate', is clearly a broadened figurative use of these earlier vets. It is first recorded in the early 1900s, and appears frequently thereafter. The word is originally a Briticism.
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  #139  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:47 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: More Problems for McCain!!

http://www.theonion.com/content/vide...ed_third_party
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  #140  
Old 09-02-2008, 01:54 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin' Noggin View Post
I can't help but feel that Glenn is demanding that a black president play two largely conflicting roles that he wouldn't demand of a non-black president.
That's an interesting thought. Along with that, I've often thought that he's holding Obama to a higher standard than he does white candidates.

Quote:
Loury can hold Obama's feet to the fire (once elected) on those practical achievements. And he can add, in his own voice, some notes about domestic terrorism etc., ...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have this fantasy where Obama hires Glenn to serve as conscience of the Administration. Or one of them, at least. (But would he still be allowed to appear on BH.tv in that case? Better be careful what I wish for. ;^) )

Quote:
... but it doesn't really make much sense to blame Obama for preferring the possibility of future achievements over the chance to wrangle over a divisive an unchangeable past.
Yes. And I have a feeling it's really important to Obama to motivate young people to believe in government and public service, and most of them don't want to beaten up with stuff that happened before they were born. I'm not saying it's entirely a good thing for young people to be that way -- respect for one's elders and appreciation for earlier efforts are important -- but that's the way kids are.
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  #141  
Old 09-02-2008, 02:06 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
This takes it (for anyone with the ability to read) way beyond regional differences.

Instead it was presented that the two states were alien to everywhere else in the country and that is just foolish.

You also added this gem:

I hope you realize that if someone said the same thing about Seattle or NYC it would sound equally as foolish.
Harkin,

Obviously, you have chosen not to understand my point. You are responding with the same arguments as before. But this time you are adding erroneous interpretations about what I said. For example I didn't say that ID or AK are un-American; that's what you chose to interpret. Since disagreement is usually due at least in part, to misinterpretations, I will not bother trying to explain again what I meant.

But, I do object the language you used in your response. I put in bold the derogatory statements you made. If you had just used one, I would ignore it, but you repeated such statements enough times for me to question your tactics.

Those statements don't strengthen your arguments. They weaken them. I have to seriously question your judgment when you introduce unnecessary hostility to an otherwise reasonable discussion. I don't know you enough to venture further in speculation about your motives. But, please, be aware, that the derogatory language you use,
a. doesn't intimidate me,
b. weakens your arguments and your credibility,
c. embarrasses you more than me,
d. speaks very poorly of your ability to have a civilized discussion with others.

Of course you can respond with more pedantic statements, if that gives you satisfaction. But don't expect me to descend to that level. No need for that.
Enjoy the rest of your day!
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  #142  
Old 09-02-2008, 02:11 PM
kynefski kynefski is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Said AEM Jeff, So let me close with a simple question: if these issues of the limits of science and the status of meaning and other moral categories are not going to be discussed in a science class, Chapter One, just where are they going to be discussed?

Let us speak honestly. "Teaching the controversy" has nothing to do with addressing the limits of science and the status of meaning. It is about attempting to mislead students as to the reliability of scientific analysis. The fellows of the Discovery Institute have no interest in helping students to understand nature; they are paid to apply their scientific expertise to support the claim that biological evolution cannot be an unguided natural process. It matters not whether their arguments are sound, only that they are persuasive. If you are curious as to how a directed evolutionary process might proceed, don't ask them. Explanation is not their department.
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  #143  
Old 09-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnshaplin View Post
A fresh perspective might prove useful. Someone who has no experience but is earnest, bright and out of the claws of special interests - reading all the old State Department 'white papers"-might percieve a way to resolve some of these problems whereas the 'old boys' just see the usual constraints and political pitfalls. One would hope that Sarah Palin, though immersed in the Washington racket, will maintain a perspective on the real interests of ordinary families, one that ignores grand political ambition, at least for a time.
At least she would be sensitive to alot of the corruption that drives the situation today.

Just a notion. An attempt to think out of the box.
I guess that in the absence of solid data to prove the above, it ends up being a question of faith, or if you prefer, "trust".

I have neither faith nor trust that this was a good choice. I'm looking at it from the liberal side. What we do know about her, includes a number of conservative values that I reject and consider to be detrimental for our country. And that's where most of the disagreement will reside. Ultimately, it all comes down to those core principles that each of us holds.
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  #144  
Old 09-02-2008, 02:21 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
Band of Gypsies- Machine Gun= best live guitar solo ever!

Jimi was also a vastly underrated songwriter.
I have the impression we have found a cross-party, intergenerational, gender neutral, multi-cultural commonality. Isn't it refreshing to have this oasis?
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  #145  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:03 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Harkin,

Obviously, you have chosen not to understand my point. You are responding with the same arguments as before. But this time you are adding erroneous interpretations about what I said. For example I didn't say that ID or AK are un-American; that's what you chose to interpret. Since disagreement is usually due at least in part, to misinterpretations, I will not bother trying to explain again what I meant.

But, I do object the language you used in your response. I put in bold the derogatory statements you made. If you had just used one, I would ignore it, but you repeated such statements enough times for me to question your tactics.

Those statements don't strengthen your arguments. They weaken them. I have to seriously question your judgment when you introduce unnecessary hostility to an otherwise reasonable discussion. I don't know you enough to venture further in speculation about your motives. But, please, be aware, that the derogatory language you use,
a. doesn't intimidate me,
b. weakens your arguments and your credibility,
c. embarrasses you more than me,
d. speaks very poorly of your ability to have a civilized discussion with others.

Of course you can respond with more pedantic statements, if that gives you satisfaction. But don't expect me to descend to that level. No need for that.
Enjoy the rest of your day!

All very nice and condescending. I guess I was being rabid again.

That's a lot of offense to be taken by someone who started this ball rolling by declaring ID and AK not part of America. Go to any state and ask the locals if they've ever ventured out over the state borders to visit America and you may get the same response.

You follow up your foolishness to declare my disagreement intimidating, weak, embarassing and uncivilized. Talk about a double standard.

Read your own statements. You changed 'the rest of America' to New York City and Seattle. That's quite a change from 'the rest of the country'. To me this shows you recognized the foolishness of your statement.

Otherwise, please explain how Seattle and NYC represent 'the rest of America' and ID and AK do not.

You asked if Sarah Palin had been 'exposed to America' when all she had been exposed to was ID and AK. If she had not been exposed to America, what is left except that which is not America? I guess I could have used the phrase 'non-America' instead of unamerican but I clearly got the inference from your statement that ID and AK were not authentic representations of the United States and this is not only foolish, it's insulting.

I stand by all my statements. You were the one that felt a clarification and a reduction from the other 48 states to two large cities was necessary.

I ask you to excuse the language I used that you found 'intimidating' etc but I also ask you to reread your nonsensical original statements, these are more offensive than anything I wrote.

Good day to you too.
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  #146  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:06 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Well, it may sound Poliana-ish, but I like to think that one of the reasons that I devote so much of my existence to music (both writing, playing, performing as well as listening and passing word along to others) is that it is one of the few things that has the ability to cross so many of the divides to give people some sorta shared experience, beyond their differences.

And in Jimi's case, he just rocks!!

Note to all voters: McCain suggests that his favorite group is ABBA (not even an American band). Is this really the kindof person we want running our country?
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  #147  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I ask you to excuse the language I used that you found 'intimidating' etc but I also ask you to reread your nonsensical original statements, these are more offensive than anything I wrote.

Good day to you too.
My "nonsensical" statements aren't so nonsensical to me. We just disagree on that.

I do appreciate that you ask that I excuse your inflammatory statements. I'm not sure you are apologizing, but there appears to be some regret.

I disagree with you in terms of my initial statements being offensive. You may agree or disagree, but my assessment about whether a state is representative or not of the rest of the country doesn't seem to be offensive per se.

When one uses direct inflammatory language (any word or statement that intends to put down the interlocutor), the rational aspects of a dialogue come to an end. It's not easy to continue a dialogue after a bomb has been thrown.
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  #148  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:33 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

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Originally Posted by uncle ebeneezer View Post
And in Jimi's case, he just rocks!!
He does!

Quote:
Note to all voters: McCain suggests that his favorite group is ABBA (not even an American band). Is this really the kind of person we want running our country?
He probably likes the group because of the two sexy women!
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  #149  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:06 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on

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Originally Posted by John M View Post
Hello My Georgian Friend Chiquita Banana,

As my chief Bheads gender advisor, I have a quick question for you.
My forgetful friendly enemy JohnMcPOW,

I don't think we have discussed this gender advisor role. In any case, I will be willing to give you my advice on gender and cultural issues. I hope you don't mind.

Quote:
Are there any age or gender requirements for my cabinet?

I am thinking that Bristol Palin will be 18 by Inauguration Day. The pregnancy thing will be over. Could I name her as head of the Environmental Protection Agency?

War is peace,
John (Giovani)
If you really have such deep interest in supporting the women in this family, I would think of a position in the Department of Education. She could embrace improving sex education, and go around the country, with her baby, giving talks in high schools and colleges.

But, my best advice is to leave the girl alone. Let her grow up first. She can take care of her baby and pursue an education. At least her chances of having a normal life are much higher than other unwed teenagers who have no means to support themselves or their babies, and even less so get an education.

Peace is Peace, and...

Wake up America!

Ocean
(the voice of your good conscience, Giovanni)
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  #150  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
Happy Hominid Happy Hominid is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Glenn is suffering from too many weird Republican successes - in the past. He's shell-shocked and doesn't want to get burned again, so he's looking for the hidden nukulur bomb!

I get it. But he honestly need not worry. The only thing the left should really do, right now, is stay quiet and make sure she doesn't drop out. The religious right will be greatly re-energized - but everyone else is going to be looking at sickly old McCain, back at his unqualified and bizarre pick, and shaking their heads in disbelief... right up to election day.

Biden is licking his chops.
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  #151  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:37 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Hominid View Post
The only thing the left should really do, right now, is stay quiet and make sure she doesn't drop out.
I dunno. I agree that there's no reason for Obama, Biden, or anyone connected with his campaign to go after her. But I do think the leftosphere should keep some pressure on. It's not as though the MSM is doing much more to vet her than the McCain campaign did.

We don't need to go after her in sexist ways, and we don't need to drag her daughter through the mud (although the occasional joke is much appreciated). But she's running for Vice President of the United States, and there are too many questions about her past and her qualifications.

Besides, if she does drop out, it's not like the GOP has some hidden champion waiting in the wings. Just the act of her dropping out would be a major, perhaps fatal, blow to McCain's chances. Despite today's good news, I'd like to see Obama up 65-35 by the end of September, and then start slowly pulling away from there.
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  #152  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:46 PM
handle handle is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnshaplin View Post
My notion is that the so-called "experience factor" is way over-rated. After all, the experience of the last thirty years has produced the disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan, a persistent inability to resolve the issue of Palestine and now something that verges on the renewal of a cold war with Russia.
The examples you give can all be attributed to the concept that the experience of the last eight years has been the results of inexperience, and incompetence.

I see Palin as GW's ideological twin, not outside the GOP "success" story in any way, other than the obvious gender and educational differences.

And on the subject of "cold war", I see it as nothing we can't nip in the bud by restoring some of our international credibility.... by getting some distance from the self destruction of the Bush years.

Last edited by handle; 09-02-2008 at 04:56 PM.. Reason: Palin, not Palen
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  #153  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:53 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

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Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I disagree with you in terms of my initial statements being offensive. You may agree or disagree, but my assessment about whether a state is representative or not of the rest of the country doesn't seem to be offensive per se.
I appreciate that after two tries you still don't understand that residents of ID and AK would be justifiably offended by your statements, many finding them foolish (as well as intimidating, embarrassing and.....well, I don't get the 'uncivilized' blast so I'll leave that one out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
My "nonsensical" statements aren't so nonsensical to me. We just disagree on that.
You say we 'just disagree', and yet you still have not explained how 'the rest of the US' in your original statement all of a sudden became 'New York City and Seattle'. You really don't see a significant change here? If the original was not nonsensical, why change it?

Think about it, you declared the residents of over three million (3,047,246) sq miles different from those in two particular states. You then felt it necessary to downscale slightly to 553 sq miles.

If you really truly stand by this opinion, are there any other states that belong to the ID/AK nonAmerica? If so, which ones? If not, what is the number one characteristic that earns ID and AK the honor and disqualifies the other 48? Having a logical answer for this will go a long way towards persuading me you know what you're talking about. If you're going to 'disagree' with me, tell me which facts formed your opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
When one uses direct inflammatory language (any word or statement that intends to put down the interlocutor), the rational aspects of a dialogue come to an end. It's not easy to continue a dialogue after a bomb has been thrown.
Don't you even see that the irrationality began with a statement that had to be adjusted by a factor of about 98%?

You declare two entire states worth of people nonAmerica, and yet I'm the one who introduced a trend to 'put down' someone? Are you kidding me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
I do appreciate that you ask that I excuse your inflammatory statements. I'm not sure you are apologizing, but there appears to be some regret.
I would have a higher regard of your judgment regarding civility if I had a single recollection of you ever scolding anyone for some of the ridicule and condescension exhibited daily towards conservatives, not to mention the occasional 'racist' (Mickey) and 'terrorist' (J McCain) embarrassments. I'm throwing 'bombs' and yet these aren't worth commenting on?


If the response is just more about my lack of civility and no attempt to answer what I feel are legitimate questions, I'll presume you have no answers.
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  #154  
Old 09-02-2008, 05:15 PM
John M John M is offline
 
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Default Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on

Dear My Friend Chiquita Banana,

Quote:
my best advice is to leave the girl alone. Let her grow up first. She can take care of her baby and pursue an education.
Maybe you're right about Bristol. Leave her alone. Let her raise her little bastard in peace.

What about the kid who tricked her into having sex though? He's quite the Mooseburger.

Name's Levi. Jew boy. (Note to self: Do women prefer circumcised ones? Ask Cindy.)

I figure Levi slipped Bristol a mickey (they call 'em roofies now). Bristol went to abstinence school and took the Purity Pledge, so there's no other explanation why she would have let the Hebrew get to second base.

Back in my day, daddy would have visited the Levi farm, shotgun in hand, preacher by his side, and made sure they got hitched. Then we would have sent young Levi off to Nam to make a man out of him. You want a wholesome white virgin? Earn it under Cong fire the way the rest of us did.

Well, time's have changed. That's sad. But some things never change. Like commies and Islamofascists.

War is Peace,
John
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I'm John M. and I approve this message
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  #155  
Old 09-02-2008, 08:05 PM
johnshaplin johnshaplin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Chess Game

OCEAN wrote:

"I have neither faith nor trust that this was a good choice. I'm looking at it from the liberal side. What we do know about her, includes a number of conservative values that I reject and consider to be detrimental for our country. And that's where most of the disagreement will reside. Ultimately, it all comes down to those core principles that each of us holds."

I'm not sure Sarah's personal views about 'cultural issues" translate into a legislative agenda. Early reports from Alaska indicated they arn't. That's a crucial difference for me. Even if she is content to 'stand pat', uphold the status quo (though it may exclude rectifying 'civil unions;' by calling them 'marriage' under the law) that would be O.K. with me. I'd like to see the eternal debate PROCHOICE VS PROLIFE laid somewhat to rest. It's not well defined and it's a big distraction from more important matters.

Of course I have no basis to trust Sarah Palin, anymore than I have a basis to trust Biden. I'll go for a change if the only real one I can detect is a black face rather than a white one.
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  #156  
Old 09-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Exeus99 Exeus99 is offline
 
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Default Phrasing

Yeah, I'm not sure if this is the best way to say what I think you mean:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyuser
They're a walking, talking advertisement for abortion.
Actually, I'm not sure that's the best way to say anything.

Also, re
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyuser
not only does he find himself getting married when, if he had a brain in his dumb teenage head, he wouldn't want to
are all teenagers in this boat, that is, are they all too dumb to get married, too dumb to know they don't want to get married and have a kid right away? Should they all be considered walking advertisements for abortion? What if they'd have been dumb married teenagers first--or even one dumb teenager and one older partner--still a walking advertisment for abortion?
Something seems off about that conclusion--wasn't someone important born under similar circumstances--to a pretty young parent...not that Jesus dude, someone else...my memory's so bad lately!
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  #157  
Old 09-02-2008, 09:44 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Guys, Please watch C-Span from now on

Quote:
Originally Posted by John M View Post
Dear My Friend Chiquita Banana,

Maybe you're right about Bristol. Leave her alone. Let her raise her little (bastard: no) BABY in peace.
Giovanni,

I'm glad you sometimes listen to my good advice. Nice boy!

Quote:
What about the kid who tricked her into having sex though? He's quite the Mooseburger.
Leave him alone too. He'll take care of the baby when Bristol goes to school.


Quote:
Back in my day, daddy would have visited the Levi farm, shotgun in hand, preacher by his side, and made sure they got hitched. Then we would have sent young Levi off to Nam to make a man out of him. You want a wholesome white virgin? Earn it under Cong fire the way the rest of us did.
Ah, good old times for you, Johnny. But not any more...

Quote:
Well, time's have changed. That's sad. But some things never change.
And neither do you, Giovanni!

Your friendly enemy and best advisor (remember my only interest is making you a better person, a B-A-L-D)

Ocean
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  #158  
Old 09-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Ocean Ocean is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I appreciate that after two tries you still don't understand that residents of ID and AK would be justifiably offended by your statements, many finding them foolish (as well as intimidating, embarrassing and.....well, I don't get the 'uncivilized' blast so I'll leave that one out).
Harkin,

People living in northern states, southern states, eastern, western, large urban, small urban, suburban, rural areas, have many characteristics in common and many differences. Not one state is completely representative of the totality. Neither ID, nor AK, nor NY, nor CA are representative of the rest. None is better or worse. There are good and bad people everywhere.

It's my opinion that a political leader at the Federal Government level, should be familiar with all major regions, their people, and their individual characteristics. If a political figure, in this case Palin, has been raised and educated in one region of the country, it is legitimate to wonder whether that person is familiar with the kinds of problems that affect other regions. When someone has lived in different regions, or has visited and interacted with others, or has experience with politics at the national level, it appears more likely that (s)he will be acquainted with each regional needs.

Quote:
You declare two entire states worth of people non-America, and yet I'm the one who introduced a trend to 'put down' someone? Are you kidding me?
No, I'm not kidding you. I never said any state is non-America or un-American. You said that based on your erroneous interpretation of my statement. If you interpreted that, I can see you would feel like I was putting those states down. But I didn't say that. That was a misunderstanding.

You introduced derogatory statements by saying that my opinion was foolish and by saying that I wasn't able to read. And I drew a line there. Once these kinds of terms are introduced the game changes. It stops being a rational exchange of ideas and becomes an attack and defense match. I wasn't interested in that. Those kinds of exchanges become emotional, filled with anger, and subjectivity and a desire to prevail. Not a constructive way to engage in dialogue.


Quote:
I would have a higher regard of your judgment regarding civility if I had a single recollection of you ever scolding anyone for some of the ridicule and condescension exhibited daily towards conservatives, not to mention the occasional 'racist' (Mickey) and 'terrorist' (J McCain) embarrassments. I'm throwing 'bombs' and yet these aren't worth commenting on?
Let's be clear. My role here is not to scold others. If I criticize someone's comments, I have a right to choose who, why and when. I never made any claims about being an arbitrator. I don't know why you would expect me to do so. Nonetheless, and for your information, I have on occasion, exhorted others to stop a line of argument that, in my opinion, was crossing some lines of what I consider appropriate. I do that at my own risk, and again, it shouldn't be construed as a commitment to fulfill an arbitration function.

Quote:
If the response is just more about my lack of civility and no attempt to answer what I feel are legitimate questions, I'll presume you have no answers.
I presented my answers. I'm hoping that they are satisfactory. If not, we'll have to leave this topic inconclusive, because I don't think I can explain it in yet, another way. I'm not expecting you to agree with my opinions. But I do expect you to agree to stop discussing a topic that has taken way too much time. I don't have to comment on your lack of civility, since this post I'm responding to stays within the boundaries of what I would call civil. Otherwise I would not have responded.
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  #159  
Old 09-03-2008, 02:21 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
People living in northern states, southern states, eastern, western, large urban, small urban, suburban, rural areas, have many characteristics in common and many differences. Not one state is completely representative of the totality. Neither ID, nor AK, nor NY, nor CA are representative of the rest. None is better or worse. There are good and bad people everywhere.

It's my opinion that a political leader at the Federal Government level, should be familiar with all major regions, their people, and their individual characteristics. If a political figure, in this case Palin, has been raised and educated in one region of the country, it is legitimate to wonder whether that person is familiar with the kinds of problems that affect other regions. When someone has lived in different regions, or has visited and interacted with others, or has experience with politics at the national level, it appears more likely that (s)he will be acquainted with each regional needs.

Very nice. If you'd said that at the beginning it would have been nowhere near as bad and yet I still would have had a problem with it. I don't think you can write someone off as incapable of performing a job without listening to their positions and looking at their accomplishments. But then I've learned through life that people who many dismiss on first impressions can surprise and excel.

One could also say that 'a political leader in the Executive branch of government at the national level should have executive experience'. Palin is the only one in the two major tickets who does. I certainly hope you aren't deeming that irrelevant.

Your original statement........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Has Mrs. Palin ever lived in a more or less metropolitan area? I mean Alaska and North Idaho are not representative of the rest of the U.S. Has she been exposed to America?
.......whether you admit it or not, was a sweeping and incorrect generalization that you later corrected only after numerous requests. For that I thank you but I don't see why it took so long.


Oh, and while she comes from an area that you deem 'not representative of the rest of the US', and you seem to infer she is ignorant of the people and needs outside Alaska, she did manage to 'visit and interact' with the troops in Kuwait over a year ago. She also accomplished something Obama failed to do, visit wounded troops in Germany. Maybe she was making an effort to see the situation for herself and find out if there was anything she could do. According to your own criteria this would be something in her favor.
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  #160  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:11 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: Be a Patriot: Get Pregnant.

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Originally Posted by harkin View Post
One could also say that 'a political leader in the Executive branch of government at the national level should have executive experience'. Palin is the only one in the two major tickets who does. I certainly hope you aren't deeming that irrelevant.
So therefore, Palin should be running for president, with McCain as her VP?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean View Post
Agree.

Has Mrs. Palin ever lived in a more or less metropolitan area? I mean Alaska and North Idaho are not representative of the rest of the U.S. Has she been exposed to America?
.......whether you admit it or not, was a sweeping and incorrect generalization that you later corrected only after numerous requests. For that I thank you but I don't see why it took so long.
I don't think that Ocean's statement was sweeping or incorrect. If the only life experience one has involves these two states, there is no way one is going to have a good feel for what matters to people in other areas. I'm fascinated by this right wing trope, that it's perfectly acceptable to deride someone who lives on one of the coast for being "out of touch with real Americans," but the reverse never seems to apply. What, people who live in Los Angeles and New York City and Chicago aren't real Americans?

If nothing else, you ought to bear in mind that far more people live in big cities, and on or near the coasts, than they do in small towns or mostly rural states like Alaska and Idaho.

And finally, if people were asked to name the two states with the most separatist attitudes, Alaska and Idaho would almost win in a landslide. Given Todd and Sarah Palin's past affiliations, this is worth keeping in mind. For someone such as yourself who claims to love all of America, I mean.

Quote:
Oh, and while she comes from an area that you deem 'not representative of the rest of the US', and you seem to infer she is ignorant of the people and needs outside Alaska, she did manage to 'visit and interact' with the troops in Kuwait over a year ago. She also accomplished something Obama failed to do, visit wounded troops in Germany. Maybe she was making an effort to see the situation for herself and find out if there was anything she could do.
Or, more likely, she did this one visit as a photo op and learned nothing. You rightwingers can't let this one canceled visit by Obama go, can you? You can't admit that he has visited military personnel on numerous other occasions, often with no reporters in tow, including in hospitals, can you? You won't acknowledge that his voting pattern as a Senator -- where it really counts -- is far more supportive of the troops than is McCain's, will you?
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Last edited by bjkeefe; 09-03-2008 at 07:42 AM..
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