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  #1  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:05 AM
Bloggingheads Bloggingheads is offline
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Default The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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  #2  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:02 AM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Sorry but the ones obsessed with race are Dayo and John.

The confirmation hearings were all about equality and being color-blind and Sotomayor vomited all over herself (Dayo: 'said it poorly') with her incredible testimony.

White-people land?? What if a white person referred to an inner-city ghetto as 'black-people land'? The cries of racism would echo.

This is followed by 'I don't want to engage in a sort of ethnic determinism'??? LOL!


I've already posted a few articles pointing out the shortcomings of Sotomayor and how she had to disavow her earlier statements (and Obama's philosophy) in order to not appear a race-based, statist knucklehead, here's another from George Jonas:


"At one point, Sotomayor explained to Texas Republican Sen. John Cornyn that she was trying to play off Justice Sandra Day O’Connor’s observation that, all things being equal, a wise old man should reach the same decision as a wise old woman. When Cornyn pointed out that this was the opposite of a wise Latina reaching a better conclusion that her male counterpart, Sotomayor said, hmm, well, yes, you got it, that’s why her words “failed.” They “didn’t work,” although her address, taken as a whole, meant to convey the same message as Justice O’Connor’s. Sotomayor didn’t explain why she kept using failed words that didn’t work speech after speech, and Cornyn was too much of a gentleman to ask.

Anyone bald-faced enough to offer such blatant nonsense would be laughed out of court, but in the Senate Judiciary Committee no one is laughing. Custom entitles a popular president — especially one, like Obama, who has the votes to enforce his choice anyway — to stack the Supreme Court as long as the nominee doesn’t suffer a “complete meltdown,” as South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsay Graham put it — that is, as long as she doesn’t deny what everybody knows with such transparent falsity as to turn her stumble into a pratfall. A flaw in the nominee’s judgment does no harm as long as there’s a flaw in her character to fix it. “Hey, Judge, we’re on your side,” senators say. “Just make it sound good.” That’s how things work in the big leagues."
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  #3  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:20 AM
eric eric is offline
 
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Default Swim Club Smear

McWhorter admits the reason why the swim club didn't want the kids back could have been there were simply too many kids, and notes the word 'complexion' really raised hackles. But as a linguist he should know 'complexion' has more than one meaning, many are benign. For example, a swimming pool is quite different when there are 60 kids brought in, not with families, but with a handful of adult babysitters. I'm sure that kids being kids, it was relative bedlam. This swim club will probably be sued out of existence, and even the board individuals will probably pay tens of thousands for whatever happened. The 'prima facia' proof of racism consists of reports by the group that they heard racial slurs. Is it possible people at the club were merely offended by the extra rowdy kids, and the kids responded to this umbrage by pushing the right buttons?

The speakers draw from this is that 1) the swim club is guilty of racism based on self-interested hearsay and 2) this incident has broad implications for society. Most people want to brag about how they hate the racism alleged, so won't bother to seriously consider the defense, so this swim club has only a formality of any real defense.

This suggest to me one of the biggest problems in the black community is the obsessive focus on racism in the face of standard slights that anyone else deals with as life merely due to the fact that some people are rude. There are better priorities. This can lead to rational generalizations, and be self-defeating.
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  #4  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:57 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
...Anyone bald-faced enough to offer such blatant nonsense would be laughed out of court, but in the Senate Judiciary Committee no one is laughing. Custom entitles a popular president — especially one, like Obama, who has the votes to enforce his choice anyway — to stack the Supreme Court as long as the nominee doesn’t suffer a “complete meltdown,” as South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsay Graham put it — that is, as long as she doesn’t deny what everybody knows with such transparent falsity as to turn her stumble into a pratfall. A flaw in the nominee’s judgment does no harm as long as there’s a flaw in her character to fix it. “Hey, Judge, we’re on your side,” senators say. “Just make it sound good.” That’s how things work in the big leagues."[/I]
And if your pull quote is reflective of the political reality, than I applaud Sotomayor for being "wise" enough and smart enough to play the game to win. Yes, Obama has the entitlement... so it goes. But don't mistake twisting her replies in the conformation process for her actual worth as a judge or legal scholar. Her seventeen years are proof enough. Empathy is for realz.
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  #5  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:04 AM
gwlaw99 gwlaw99 is offline
 
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Default Her view of government takings

While I think generally she is qualified and should be confirmed, the focus should have been more about some of her bad holdings. For example, in Didden v. Port Chester , agreeing that it was OK for a developer to blackmail a landowner to give up half of their property (or pay a bribe of 800k to the developer). When the landowner refused the blackmail; it was ok for that developer to threaten and eventually use his influence in government to have the government take the landowner's property and give it to the developer solely for the developer's benefit (building a different kind of drug store than the landowner was going to build).

Did the circuit court struggle with this issue? Did the court show wisdom through a reasoned opinion? No, as in Ricci, after dealing with procedureal issues, it simply released a terse opinion on the substantive issues. Is that a wise decision based on great personal experience and empathy?

Last edited by gwlaw99; 07-20-2009 at 11:10 AM..
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  #6  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:21 AM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: Swim Club Smear

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric View Post
This suggest to me one of the biggest problems in the black community is the obsessive focus on racism in the face of standard slights that anyone else deals with as life merely due to the fact that some people are rude. There are better priorities. This can lead to rational generalizations, and be self-defeating.
The distinction between the highlighted "black community" and "anyone" are important to unpack. It is unlikely for the group dynamic at play in this particular case to be addressed by the tough it out approach. It is not a series of individuals facing an inconvenience. Even as an outsider it is easy to grasp the forces at play. It may even be the case that as you suggested it was only a slight or was exploited to maximize results - we can only guess. But to expect that it could be easily diffused is naive.
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  #7  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:33 AM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: Her view of government takings

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post
While I think generally she is qualified and should be confirmed, the focus should have been more about some of her bad holdings. For example, in Didden v. Port Chester , agreeing that it was OK for a developer to blackmail a landowner to give up half of their property (or pay a bribe of 800k to the developer). When the landowner refused the blackmail; it was ok for that developer to threaten and eventually use his influence in government to have the government take the landowner's property and give it to the developer solely for the developer's benefit (building a different kind of drug store than the landowner was going to build).

Did the circuit court struggle with this issue? Did the court show wisdom through a reasoned opinion? No, as in Ricci, after dealing with procedureal issues, it simply released a terse opinion on the substantive issues. Is that a wise decision based on great personal experience and empathy?
Wasn't that decided based a statute of limitations?
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  #8  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:51 AM
conncarroll conncarroll is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

um Dayo... they did question her about the law. extensively. Sonia just caved at every turn:

Rejecting the Living Constitution: Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) asked Sotomayor flat out: “Do you believe the Constitution is a living, breathing, evolving document?” Sotomayor then flatly rejected the views of liberal scholars and jurists: “The Constitution is a document that is immutable to the sense that it’s lasted 200 years. The Constitution has not changed except by amendment. It is a process, an amendment process that is set forth in the document. It doesn’t live other than to be timeless by the expression of what it says.” She later told Sen. Al Franken (D-MN): “[T]he role of the court is never to make the policy. It’s to wait until Congress acts.”

Rejecting Transnationalist Jurisprudence: Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) asked Sotomayor: “You’ve been fairly critical of Justice Scalia’s criticism of the use of foreign law in making decisions. And I would like for you to cite for me, either in the Constitution or in the oath that you took, outside of the treaties, the authority that you can have to utilize foreign law in deciding cases in the courts of law in this country.” Sotomayor then flatly rejected the views of established transnationalist jurisprudence leaders like Harold Koh: “I have actually agreed with Justice Scalia and Thomas on the point that one has to be very cautious even in using foreign law with respect to the things American law permits you to. And that’s in treaty interpretation or in conflicts of law because it’s a different system of law.”

Rejecting Obama’s Empathy Standard: Sotomayor even flatly rejected President Obama’s own criteria for selecting Supreme Court nominees, telling Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ): “I wouldn’t approach the issue of judging in the way the president does. He has to explain what he meant by judging. I can only explain what I think judges should do, which is judges can’t rely on what’s in their heart. They don’t determine the law. Congress makes the laws.”
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  #9  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:56 AM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Conn, TWIB has become unwatchable without you.

Please come back!
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  #10  
Old 07-20-2009, 12:15 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Sorry but the ones obsessed with race are Dayo and John.

The confirmation hearings were all about equality and being color-blind and Sotomayor vomited all over herself (Dayo: 'said it poorly') with her incredible testimony.

White-people land?? What if a white person referred to an inner-city ghetto as 'black-people land'? The cries of racism would echo.

This is followed by 'I don't want to engage in a sort of ethnic determinism'??? LOL!
Let me check the debating manual ... yeah, it says, "When executing the blacks are the real racists move the debater must first establish the appearance of evenhandedness and sympathy (see concern troll). Do not leap to equivalence directly." You shanked it pretty badly, even though it says this move has a low degree of difficulty.
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  #11  
Old 07-20-2009, 12:29 PM
gwlaw99 gwlaw99 is offline
 
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Default Re: Her view of government takings

Quote:
Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
Wasn't that decided based a statute of limitations?
Yes, but the court stated "even if Appellants' claims were not time-barred, to the extent that they assert that the Takings Clause prevents the State from condemning their property for a private use within a redevelopment district, regardless of whether they have been provided with just compensation, the recent Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London . . . obliges us to conclude that they have articulated no basis upon which relief can be granted."

In that one line they expanded Kelo to legitimize pretextual takings for a private benefit.

Even the precedural ruling was problematic

"the plaintiffs' property was not condemned at that time and Wasser did not make his extortionate threats until November 2003, after which their property was almost immediately condemned.

Until that time, it was impossible to file a pretextual taking claim because no pretextual taking had yet occurred or even been threatened. Judge Sotomayor’s panel ruled that Bart Didden and Dominick Bologna’s case was time-barred because she assumed that there is no legal difference between the mere declaration of a redevelopment area and the use of condemnation for purposes of extortion. The panel’s seemingly technical procedural ruling was actually based on a serious substantive error about the law of pretextual takings, as described in Kelo."

Here 2nd amendment case was also very problematic. She relied on a case from the 1890's based on the "privileges or immunities" clause to hold the 2nd amendment was not incorporated to the states when for the last 100 years incorporation has been decided based on the due process clause.

Last edited by gwlaw99; 07-20-2009 at 12:40 PM..
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  #12  
Old 07-20-2009, 01:17 PM
I'm SO awesome!
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

no! don't listen to him. please, for god's sake, do not come back.
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2009, 01:29 PM
harkin harkin is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
And if your pull quote is reflective of the political reality, than I applaud Sotomayor for being "wise" enough and smart enough to play the game to win.
Applauding someone for dishonesty has never been high on my list, nor has trying to cover for it by attributing same to some form of wisdom. But I do recognize that it's part of the Alinsky playbook.

Quote:
Let me check the debating manual ... yeah, it says, "When executing the blacks are the real racists move the debater must first establish the appearance of evenhandedness and sympathy (see concern troll). Do not leap to equivalence directly." You shanked it pretty badly, even though it says this move has a low degree of difficulty.

That you chose to employ the ridiculous premise that this equals a 'blacks are the real racists' meme, you show either your ignorance or your disingenuousness. But feel secure in the knowledge that those who consider any criticism of a person of color as a sign of racism will appalud you.

And the only shanking was done by yourself, as I criticized John and Dayo, not all persons of a specific race, as they did with Dayo's 'white persons land' ridiculousness (and McWhorter's implied agreement). I called them individually on their own words/actions, which was completely fair. Use this as a learning moment - step one in this tutorial is to recognize that racists and race ignorant people come in all colors.

And by coincidence the death of Leszek Kolakowski and the tribute by Christopher Hitchens reminds us of the incredible hypocrisy of the left regarding race:

"A second Polish spring in March 1968 was put down with the use of the most crude police tactics and the employment by the Communist Party of anti-Semitism as a weapon against dissent. Forced to leave his homeland, he roosted for a while as an exile professor in Berkeley, Calif., where his experience of the student movement more or less completed his break with the New Left. (Years later he would recall with contempt a pamphlet that described the libraries of the university as being stuffed with "useless 'white' knowledge)."
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2009, 01:45 PM
graz graz is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
Applauding someone for dishonesty has never been high on my list, nor has trying to cover for it by attributing same to some form of wisdom. But I do recognize that it's part of the Alinsky playbook.
Did you ever play charades? They call it a game.
I respect your call for honesty. I also know that you're shrewd enough to know how to play for keeps. Why only cut slack for your heroes or political allies (G.W. springs to mind - if recollection serves)?
Isn't that dare I say, dishonest?
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:04 PM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by harkin View Post
I've already posted a few articles pointing out the shortcomings of Sotomayor ...
And we can never have too many of those! Here are some more: "Sotomayor Hearings, Expected Confirmation a Conservative Triumph, Say Rightbloggers."
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  #16  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:14 PM
bkjazfan bkjazfan is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Hello! I am out of the loop on affirnmative action polling. I haven't followed the issue in years. I know awhile back the public in California voted against it in some kind of government hiring or college admissions by 54 to 46 or it could have been a slimmer victory. I can't remember the particulars of it.

Anyhow, what does national polling suggest? Are the majority of all Americans for or against it? I bring it up since Senator Sessions seem to be concerned with it among other things.

John
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2009, 02:55 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

I find it amazing and some what humors, that even with 60 Democratic Senators, this justice nominee finds it necessary to toe the conservative line in her answers to many of the questions. Is conservative jurisprudence now the defacto norm? Or is she lying to conform to the perceived conservative norm? Only her hair dresser knows for sure!
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2009, 03:37 PM
dkschwartz
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

ISN'T IT FUNNY HOW WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW HER BEING LATINO makes her a better judge, never cite examples.

CAUSE THE CASE'S THAT SHE HAS LET HER RACE DECIDED RULINGS, ARE THE ONE'S THE LEFT EMBARASSED ABOUT LIKE RICCI.

and i'm disgusted at how this lady snarks "oh poor frank ricci" and claims to be offended by senators even daring to be upset and bring up Sotomayors minoritys are better judges, and that we should throw out tests if blacks don't do well enough.

everytime you bring up Ricci, so many black liberals like idiotic robots just say "oh ya white males are so oppressed, aren't they?, i guess you forgot about that whole slavery thing"

complete straw mans
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:41 PM
dkschwartz
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

ISN'T IT FUNNY HOW WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW HER BEING LATINO makes her a better judge, they never cite examples.

CAUSE THE CASES THAT SHE HAS LET HER RACE DECIDED RULINGS, ARE THE ONE'S THE LEFT EMBARASSED ABOUT LIKE RICCI.

and i'm disgusted at how this lady snarks "oh poor frank ricci" and claims to be offended by senators even daring to be upset and bring up Sotomayors minoritys are better judges, and that we should throw out tests if blacks don't do well enough.

everytime you bring up Ricci, so many black liberals like idiotic robots just say "oh ya white males are so oppressed, aren't they?, i guess you forgot about that whole slavery thing"

complete straw mans
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2009, 03:44 PM
dkschwartz
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

ISN'T IT FUNNY HOW WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW HER BEING LATINO makes her a better judge, they never cite examples.

CAUSE THE CASES THAT SHE HAS LET HER RACE DECIDE RULINGS, ARE THE ONE'S THE LEFT EMBARASSED ABOUT LIKE RICCI.

and i'm disgusted at how this lady snarks "oh poor frank ricci" and claims to be offended by senators even daring to be upset and bring up Sotomayors minoritys are better judges, and that we should throw out tests if blacks don't do well enough.

everytime you bring up Ricci, so many black liberals like idiotic robots just say "oh ya white males are so oppressed, aren't they?, i guess you forgot about that whole slavery thing"

complete straw mans
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  #21  
Old 07-20-2009, 04:07 PM
pampl pampl is offline
 
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Default Re: Swim Club Smear

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric View Post
McWhorter admits the reason why the swim club didn't want the kids back could have been there were simply too many kids, and notes the word 'complexion' really raised hackles. But as a linguist he should know 'complexion' has more than one meaning, many are benign. For example, a swimming pool is quite different when there are 60 kids brought in, not with families, but with a handful of adult babysitters. I'm sure that kids being kids, it was relative bedlam. This swim club will probably be sued out of existence, and even the board individuals will probably pay tens of thousands for whatever happened. The 'prima facia' proof of racism consists of reports by the group that they heard racial slurs. Is it possible people at the club were merely offended by the extra rowdy kids, and the kids responded to this umbrage by pushing the right buttons?
He wrote about complexion having more than one meaning last week, when he addressed this topic. That's why here he just calls it something like "an unfortunate word" and not an indicator of racism. I find your claims about the club's future to be extremely improbably, and I'm willing to wager a small sum that nothing like it will happen. I don't think making racist statements is a justified response to "extra rowdy kids". I'd like to see some evidence of "extra rowd[iness]" by the way.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2009, 04:32 PM
metacodger metacodger is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
dkschwartz said: ...


** %% !!!YEAH MARIA!!! *** YOU gOts Some 'SPLAININ to DO!!!*** :-& !!! *** ! ### !!
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2009, 07:48 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default swimming pools

I read McWhorter's post on this a couple of days ago, and given my deformation professionnelle (former lifeguard and swimming teacher), all I could think was, "How big was that pool and how many lifeguards did they have?" Without knowing that you can't really comment on this story.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:38 PM
x9#z6 x9#z6 is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Totally agree with Dayo on the explanation for the "wise latina" context. It's probably what Sotomayor meant, it's part of why Obama saw her as a good choice (i.e. empathy) and it also happens to be true (in my opinion). No need for qualifications...more experience IS absolutely better.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:58 PM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default Re: swimming pools

Quote:
Originally Posted by claymisher View Post
I read McWhorter's post on this a couple of days ago, and given my deformation professionnelle (former lifeguard and swimming teacher), all I could think was, "How big was that pool and how many lifeguards did they have?" Without knowing that you can't really comment on this story.
Two friends of mine who worked as lifeguards were trained to focus on blacks because of their higher rate of drowning than whites: "The fatal drowning rate of African American children ages 5 to 14 is 3.2 times that of white children in the same age range."
Is this training standard?
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:08 PM
claymisher claymisher is offline
 
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Default Re: swimming pools

Quote:
Originally Posted by breadcrust View Post
Two friends of mine who worked as lifeguards were trained to focus on blacks because of their higher rate of drowning than whites: "The fatal drowning rate of African American children ages 5 to 14 is 3.2 times that of white children in the same age range."
Is this training standard?
Oh hell no! You gotta watch everybody all the time. The only time I ever had to go in the water was to fish out old people too pooped to grab on the pole. And one toddler who just ran straight over to the deep end, jumped in, and immediately sank. That was a weird one. Little suicide machines, those toddlers.

I'm not going to argue with the CDC stats so I have to figure that has to do with poverty (never getting swimming lessons, unsupervised summer vacations, etc). For kids in the pool with lifeguards around I'm sure there's no real difference.

Last edited by claymisher; 07-20-2009 at 09:10 PM..
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:18 PM
Freshpez Freshpez is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

I'll try speaking for the fat white male conservatives (as I am one, though only 31 years old) and try to outline why we're so touchy when talking about race and affirmative action.

I have been taught since grade school that racism is horrible, and we must treat everyone the same without regard for someone's race or gender. And that we must speak very carefully so that we don't offend someone, and we must not speak of people of different races being different. And I've believed it and lived by it.

And so when Sotomoyer says the wise latina remark, or Frank Ricci is denied promotion because of his race, I always, continually find myself reversing the circumstances and trying to find out what would happen.

And I think, boy, if Sotomoyer was a white guy and said those things, or if Ricci were black and denied promotion, I can't even imagine the hoopla that would ensue.

And so then when I hear Dayo talk about "poor Ricci" it drives me to the rafters. It really gets me going like no other political argument does.

So that's explaining our fascination.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:32 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freshpez View Post
I'll try speaking for the fat white male conservatives (as I am one, though only 31 years old) and try to outline why we're so touchy when talking about race and affirmative action.

I have been taught since grade school that racism is horrible, and we must treat everyone the same without regard for someone's race or gender. And that we must speak very carefully so that we don't offend someone, and we must not speak of people of different races being different. And I've believed it and lived by it.

And so when Sotomoyer says the wise latina remark, or Frank Ricci is denied promotion because of his race, I always, continually find myself reversing the circumstances and trying to find out what would happen.

And I think, boy, if Sotomoyer was a white guy and said those things, or if Ricci were black and denied promotion, I can't even imagine the hoopla that would ensue.

And so then when I hear Dayo talk about "poor Ricci" it drives me to the rafters. It really gets me going like no other political argument does.

So that's explaining our fascination.
When you "reverse the circumstances" regarding blacks do you imagine your ancestors were enslaved for a 400 year period, followed by a century of legalized racism? Do you imagine that the circumstances of your life, forty years removed from the end of legal racism (i.e. still within living memory) have been almost certainly affected to your detriment? Even in the case of Hispanics and others, the circumstances have not generally been equal to that of whites of European descent.

The circumstances are not identical, which is why the response is not symmetrical.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:53 PM
Lyle
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Default Let His Dream Come To Fruition

People today deserve special treatment because of slavery? Young non-white whatever deserve special treatment today because their parents or grandparents experienced segregation?

As each day ends we move farther and farther away from de facto segregation in this country. At some point whatever sociological and/or governmental help that comes from this time will have to end. The logic behind it simply doesn't comport with what the Constitution or America is about, i.e., we are all created equal. One day, liberals will get out of the way and let Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream come to fruition.
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  #30  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:59 PM
Freshpez Freshpez is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

Quote:
When you "reverse the circumstances" regarding blacks do you imagine your ancestors were enslaved for a 400 year period, followed by a century of legalized racism? Do you imagine that the circumstances of your life, forty years removed from the end of legal racism (i.e. still within living memory) have been almost certainly affected to your detriment? Even in the case of Hispanics and others, the circumstances have not generally been equal to that of whites of European descent.
Nope. I love that argument, it seems to state that there's no poor white people out there. And it seems to state that there's no responsibility in the black community to improve things,everything has to be from the government.

It also seems to think that there's different fires for black and white firefighters.
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  #31  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:14 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by Freshpez View Post
Nope. I love that argument, it seems to state that there's no poor white people out there. And it seems to state that there's no responsibility in the black community to improve things,everything has to be from the government.

It also seems to think that there's different fires for black and white firefighters.
Nope. What it says is that there's a debt due. It obviously can't be payed in full, but it it has to be acknowledged. White guys (like me) have been the beneficiaries of the system since day one. They wrote the rules and they reaped the benefits. And when their sons whinge at the relatively low cost of servicing that debt, (let's compare not getting a promotion you believe you deserve to watching your mother sold at auction) it's undignified and somewhat pathetic. Are there poor white folks in America? Ask my ancestors on either side. Do they have legitimate grievances? Of course they do. The Irish (my maternal grandfather) and the Italians, for instance, had it pretty bad a hundred years ago. But their status is now secured (and has been for generations) in a way that isn't true for blacks, or even Hispanics.

You're not comparing like with like.
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Last edited by AemJeff; 07-20-2009 at 10:38 PM..
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  #32  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:15 PM
uncle ebeneezer uncle ebeneezer is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

I think your missing the point. the point isn't that there aren't many factors (including white poverty) to be taken into account. The point is that there ARE things to be taken into account that make something like AA not a theoretical, all-things-being-equal scenario, but a real-world one. I used to take the simplified "racism is wrong" approach to AA and asked the same questions that you asked, then it dawned on me that while that might be the natural way to approach it theoretically, the real world isn't the kinda place where just flipping the words around makes it an equivalent circumstance. The history that we are trying to address is the one in which people were discriminated against based on the color of their skin and have been repressed by the majority in countless ways. And it persists today (though it's much better than it used to be.) The question is what to do to address it. We can argue about when AA reaches the level that it is discriminating against some other group to the point where the -'s outweigh the +'s, but it's silly to argue that it's as simple as "racism is wrong" therefore any counter-measures that can be percieved as having any element that discriminates against the majority group has to be cast out. That is unfortunately all too easy of an argument for the practitioners of the very racism that we are trying to address. No poverty-stricken white man ever had the government and people discriminate against him legally because of the color of his skin. As much as it would be easier to deal with a mathematical substitution of one minority for another, no amount of re-writing history can make it so. While I agree in principle that racism IS wrong, that is a principle better discussed in philosophy and contemporary morality classes. It should certainly be a guiding principle in our policies, but not a one-sentence magic formula. The real world and real history are a bit more complex.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:16 PM
DoctorMoney DoctorMoney is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by Freshpez View Post
And I think, boy, if Sotomoyer was a white guy and said those things, or if Ricci were black and denied promotion, I can't even imagine the hoopla that would ensue.
This is the kind of logic where the rubber never meets the road, because the standard is your imagined level of hoopla.

For what it's worth, there are zillions of examples of white racism by very public figures that results in almost no hoopla -- and in this case, Sotomayor's very mild statement resulted in an extreme amount of hoopla.
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:20 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by DoctorMoney View Post
...Sotomayor's very mild statement resulted in an extreme amount of hoopla.
And wasn't, by any stretch, an instance of racism. Nobody who reads the context, without an axe to grind, is going to come to that conclusion.
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  #35  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:43 PM
nikkibong nikkibong is offline
 
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Default Re: Let His Dream Come To Fruition

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Originally Posted by Lyle View Post
. One day, liberals will get out of the way and let Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream come to fruition.
If only those pesky racist police would get out of the way, too.
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:18 PM
piscivorous piscivorous is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by AemJeff View Post
And wasn't, by any stretch, an instance of racism. Nobody who reads the context, without an axe to grind, is going to come to that conclusion.
Which of the multiple times, in which she used essentially this same rhetorical flair, should the context be considered? If it not too much trouble can you provide a link to the context, so that those that are still curiously drawn to this argument can have their apatite satiated.
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  #37  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:37 PM
AemJeff AemJeff is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by piscivorous View Post
Which of the multiple times, in which she used essentially this same rhetorical flair, should the context be considered? If it not too much trouble can you provide a link to the context, so that those that are still curiously drawn to this argument can have their apatite satiated.
How about the original speech, which, of course, she was quoting subsequently?

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In our private conversations, Judge Cedarbaum has pointed out to me that seminal decisions in race and sex discrimination cases have come from Supreme Courts composed exclusively of white males. I agree that this is significant but I also choose to emphasize that the people who argued those cases before the Supreme Court which changed the legal landscape ultimately were largely people of color and women. I recall that Justice Thurgood Marshall, Judge Connie Baker Motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal bench, and others of the NAACP argued Brown v. Board of Education. Similarly, Justice Ginsburg, with other women attorneys, was instrumental in advocating and convincing the Court that equality of work required equality in terms and conditions of employment.

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author ofthat line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.
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  #38  
Old 07-20-2009, 11:58 PM
breadcrust breadcrust is offline
 
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Default Re: swimming pools

It makes no sense to follow this sentence:

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Oh hell no! You gotta watch everybody all the time.
With these:

Quote:
The only time I ever had to go in the water was to fish out old people too pooped to grab on the pole. And one toddler who just ran straight over to the deep end, jumped in, and immediately sank. That was a weird one. Little suicide machines, those toddlers.
It's impossible to "watch everybody all the time," so you'd profile the old people and maybe the toddlers. Since you say you weren't taught to pay more careful attention to minorities (with their higher chance of drowning) then maybe you lifeguard-ed in some community where that wasn't an issue.
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  #39  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:42 AM
bjkeefe bjkeefe is offline
 
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

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Originally Posted by Freshpez View Post
I'll try speaking for the fat white male conservatives (as I am one, though only 31 years old) and try to outline why we're so touchy when talking about race and affirmative action.

I have been taught since grade school that racism is horrible, and we must treat everyone the same without regard for someone's race or gender. And that we must speak very carefully so that we don't offend someone, and we must not speak of people of different races being different. And I've believed it and lived by it.

And so when Sotomoyer says the wise latina remark, or Frank Ricci is denied promotion because of his race, I always, continually find myself reversing the circumstances and trying to find out what would happen.

And I think, boy, if Sotomoyer was a white guy and said those things, or if Ricci were black and denied promotion, I can't even imagine the hoopla that would ensue.

And so then when I hear Dayo talk about "poor Ricci" it drives me to the rafters. It really gets me going like no other political argument does.

So that's explaining our fascination.
You do realize the whole reason the Ricci case ever made to court was because he claimed he was denied promotion because of his skin color, right?

[Added] And in case it wasn't obvious by implication: just how much more hoopla would you like about this one guy?
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  #40  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:45 AM
I'm SO awesome!
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Default Re: The Barbaric Yawp (Dayo Olopade & John McWhorter)

in the spirit of black people i'd like to post these two fantastic songs by the wonderful singer/songwriter Habib Koite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ZiZnycnWY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8pk4-wMUGA

if that is for some reason offensive then sorry but i don't care.
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